7 ms·

This is the same company which puts ads all over the OS, can't stop trying to upsell people into using onedrive, forcefully signs you into onedrive, syncs your

This is the same company which puts ads all over the OS, can't stop trying to upsell people into using onedrive, forcefully signs you into onedrive, syncs your local files into their cloud without consent, tries really hard to not let you sign in with a local account and most likely does other shady things. Their hardware is more or less garbage. My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device. It had other issues before the battery killed it. Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage.

hulitu 3y ago
> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage. Education, workplace policy. Managers _love_ Microsoft.
pid-1 3y ago
Office and Active Directory (and related stuff)
delfinom 3y ago
>My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device. Statistically, all devices suffer from swollen batteries. I've even see iPhones and iPads die from swollen batteries. There's a certain tiny % fallout in manufacturing of battery cells where they may degrade and fail prematurely and swelling is a safety feature.
- vsnf 3y ago
  I had two surfaces die from swollen batteries. The problem was frequent enough that Microsoft Store staff (rip) would exchange it immediately, no questions asked. This was back during the Surface Book 1 days. I’ve been a happy surface user ever since, and haven’t had any other battery or build quality issues since.
- wtallis 3y ago
  Eventually, almost all LiPo batteries will puff up. But there are definitely some devices that reliably cause this problem far sooner than it should occurr, due to poor charge management and thermal management.
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
giancarlostoro 3y ago
Yeah, although, having owned a Surface Book 2, and being a .NET developer, the only Windows sytems I'll have in my home will probably be Microsofts own, unless someone makes laptops that are as nice, for half the cost. Things just work on my SB2. The only reason I'll buy a new one is if it either dies, or I see a really good deal. I've had it since 2017 iirc and its been pretty great thus far. My next laptop will likely be a Mac, mines hit the mark where Apple wont let me update anymore, kind of makes me angry that Apple does that to perfectly usable hardware, but I like the ecosystem and my laptop was a min-spec anyway, needs to be upgraded, just waiting on a deal yet again.
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  Try https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ I recently used it on a 2014 5k iMac to install Sonoma (14.3) and it's been flawless in my experience - everything is buttery smooth as you'd expect. I also installed on a 2015 Macbook (12"...horrible Intel mobile processor.) It works, but the CPU is just too underpowered to do basic stuff like web browsing and messaging...if you're impatient like me anyway ;)
  - farawayea 3y ago
    OCLP gives up on security when it modifies the OS to use drivers from an older OS. Machines which use OCLP don't get firmware updates to patch severe security vulnerabilities. It's fine if you just need to make use of some hardware for a bit longer with macOS. Linux may be better in terms of security. It might not be a good fit for many.
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    I did see that, but I heard someone suggest that it might not be the best idea since your OS could become unstable. At some point I may just consider installing Linux on that Macbook, but not before replacing it, since my wife would be upset if she was stuck with Linux. She prefers to just use macOS.
- smackeyacky 3y ago
codeulike 3y ago
Surface is pretty well regarded as I understand it. Microsoft set out to make 'the sortof macbook equivlaent for windows' and largely succeeded. Although obviously macbook remains the champion overall I guess. I'm sorry you had a battery problem. For some of the best Windows hardware on the market, look no further than Microsoft’s Surface brand - WIRED Also: I dont ever see ads in Windows, but I guess somone must be getting them. Not sure what I'm doing right to avoid them.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  Just swipe left to right on Windows 11. The widget page is like 60% ads disguised as news by default. It's so easy to trigger accidentally on Windows tablets. I feel like Windows 11 is the Windows 8 for tablets. They took pretty much every gain and good thing Windows had as tablet OS and made it garbage.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Windows 11 grew up from the Windows 10X remains, thus there is some truth to it.
- farawayea 3y ago
  Do you sign in with a Microsoft account? If you do, that's probably the reason why you don't see ads in Windows 11. The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps. Microsoft has updated apps even on Windows 10 to recommend other apps. The Photos app was recommending a video editor app recently. Windows 11 shows ads, suggestions and installs a lot of garbage apps to upsell people into office 365, Onedrive and other things. I recently had to reinstall my office that I bought. It signed me into an account without permission and uploaded documents there. I had to sign out of that account to prevent it from uploading documents automatically. Most of the documents I edit contain my PII. I can sue them.
  - EarthMephit 3y ago
    > The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps. Macs also do this with their iCloud accounts, with little widgets all around the place prompting you to log in to their app store, etc... if you don't have an account. Possibly those prompts or ads are even more "in-your-face" than Windows? Probably most Mac users don't notice them because most just create an account
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Ecstatify 3y ago
After getting a Mac I’ll never purchase a Windows device again. + Terrible battery + Terrible build quality + Terrible support + Noise of fan having a stroke
- helf 3y ago
  [dead]
- HackerLemon 3y ago
  Every single windows device ever has "Terrible build quality"? Weird take
  - Ecstatify 3y ago
    €3K Dell XPS - Screen broke (Never left the desk) - “Carbon” started to peel, looks like the laptop has dandruff —— Lenovo https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/lenovo-class-settlement-for-alleged-defects-gets-final-approval# https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/lenovo-class-settle... So many relatives/friends buying €800-€1000 devices that become unusable after 1/2 years. Plastic junk.
    - EarthMephit 3y ago
      My SurfaceBook has a better build quality that my MacBook Pro model from the same era (2019) - MacBooks have improved a lot in the last few years though with the new chips I guess? I prefer the MacOs to Windows, but MacBook hardware was definitely disappointment on this model. I had numerous graphics & power issues on the MacBook Pro, plus touchbar was annoying. Dell & Lenovo are crap, I've given up on them. Surface is good, and I'm happy with my LG Gram.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    There is selection bias in their ownership experience. But I really concur. Microsoft hardware is better than stock Chinese PC hardware, but still not as good as Apple hardware (all produced in China).
- 3y ago
userbinator 3y ago
Their mouses were great, back when the rest of the company was also a lot less user-hostile.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Their mouses were great They still are, as long as you don't make the mistake of using them on Windows.
RajT88 3y ago
I have had a few surfaces for work. They are actually really nice hardware, but the Surface Book had one design flaw, which would periodically disconnect USB headsets. That was my only real complaint. I would say the comparison to Macbooks is fair.
- exitzer0 3y ago
  the special firmware that microsoft uses in these machines breaks network, USB, anything that you attach to it. it just can't get power management right. I've been saddled with one of these for 5+ years and it just never got better.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    Maybe they used to be better. I love my Surface Pro 2. Paired up with Linux, it's a kick ass little machine.
  - PennRobotics 3y ago
    Imagine: If Microsoft pushed so hard for Modern Standby and even THEY cannot get it right, why should you trust any laptop designed for Windows to have proper power management?
runjake 3y ago
It’s interesting that everything you just listed also applies to Apple — not that they’re the only alternative here. I guess I should feel fortunate that for Apple, at least the ads are limited to its own range of products. We have a bunch of Surface products deployed at work and those people seem to love them. I can’t think of any high-rate failures affecting them. Edit: Wow, I guess we have a lot of angry Apple fanatics here. Am I wrong somewhere? Please point it out. FWIW, I use and prefer Apple products.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  Apple hardware is not garbage, to start with.
HackerLemon 3y ago
iOS has push notifications adverts from Apple as well.
skeeter2020 3y ago
The microsoft hardware and OEM devices that MS sold directly were historically THE ones to buy because they were optimized to show off Windows, so no crapware, good drivers, limited BS. I don't know when that changed, but it has. >> are packed with features that business customers have been requesting This is a total lie, unless they're referencing THEIR customers trying to sell you all this shit. The developer story from Microsoft is as good as it's ever been, but the consumer side just sucks. As a historically Windows developer who now does most of their work in .net core or totally outside the MS ecosystem, but still plays the odd triple-A game I don't know what to do for my next computer.
pathartl 3y ago
Honestly, I find this to be such a weird argument. Apple does the same crap with iCloud and people put their hardware on a pedestal when it has the same inherent flaws, often for a much higher price. And maybe you share this opinion, I just want to point out that this hardware from MS is relatively benign in the grand scheme of the PC world.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  I never seen any iCloud “ad” outside of iCloud settings item. On windows I literally get annoying notification to use OneDrive.
  - vizzier 3y ago
    That is because apple doesn't ask you, it just turns it on. If you don't accept changes to their terms of service (As I haven't) you'd get these notifications fairly regularly.
    - snom380 3y ago
      Granted, I have iCloud turned on (for syncing notes and calendar) but I have it turned off for everything else. I’ve never had it ask me to turn on any of the other iCloud features like iCloud backup or drive / desktop sync. (And I’d guess if it synced things without my knowledge it would show up in my iCloud storage usage?)
- neodymiumphish 3y ago
  Completely agree that Apple does the exact same stuff with account management and iCloud notifications, but I don’t understand where these arguments keep coming from that Apple is more costly. The 13.5 sLaptop 6 for Business is, i5/8gb/256gb is $1200 Compare that the 14” MBP (M3/8gb/512gb) for $1600. The diff in SSD storage offsets some of the cost, but not the whole $400 However, the 13” MacBook Air with the same specs (although a much better CPU) - M3/8gb/256gb is actually $100 cheaper. Until someone builds an actual M3 competitor, Apple’s making better laptops for cheaper. I have an M1 16” MBP that’s still running laps around any other laptop I’ve ever owned, including the 15” sBook 2 with a 1060. The Windows Arm laptop I have sucks compared to the M-series. Anyway, totally agree that Apple does the same cross-sell garbage as Microsoft, just think it’s way off to argue that their hardware is more expensive, at least meaningfully so when you compare the performance, longevity, and battery life.
charlie0 3y ago
I'm glad I moved over to Mac. I know it's not perfect, but it's much better than Windows. They seem determined to lose customers. I really like the concept of the Surface Book and got one several years ago. The keyboard no longer works when detaching the screen, so it's practically useless. Even a full reinstall didn't fix that issue. Their new hardware is moot because ARM is just on a different level. Yeah, they can stick an H class Intel processor, but that will seriously heat up the laptop and eat the battery. The only reason I still use a windows machine is because of gaming. I'm sure lots of users are on Windows because they have no choice.
- vizzier 3y ago
  > ...can't stop trying to upsell people into using onedrive, forcefully signs you into onedrive, syncs your local files into their cloud without consent, tries really hard to not let you sign in with a local account and most likely does other shady things. This portion of the complaint was a playbook that was defined by Apple and icloud. Feels like an out of the frying pan into the fire situation.
  - charlie0 3y ago
    You can use Mac without icloud. They don't push it nearly as hard as Windows.
    - m463 3y ago
      On the other hand apple collects lots of telemetry out of sight.
ksec 3y ago
>Their hardware is more or less garbage. My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device. Macbook has swollen battery issue as well. Microsoft Hardware is more or less the best on the PC market. The only company that spend R&D money from I/O, Speaker, Keyboard, Trackpad etc to try and match Apple MacBook if not exceed it. And a lot of these innovation or improvements gets filtered through to other PC OEM over the years. You can shit about Microsoft software all you want. But in terms of PC Laptop market, they have done far more than most of the other companies. Had Pro Gaming / Pro Sumer Laptop not been a thing most other laptop manufacture would continue to milk and sell absolute garbage a la HP or Dell not a long time ago.
jjeaff 3y ago
You need to get windows 11 pro. the home versions or anything less than pro is subsidized by ads.
- luyu_wu 3y ago
  Not sure where this info is coming from? Untrue from my experience.
Terretta 3y ago
> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage. Who cares. Just make sure Apple isn't allowed to hold a line on doing things differently, then everyone else can compete fine?
pests 3y ago
The Windows division reports to the CEO of Advertising, of course it's gonna be like this.

hulitu 3y ago

> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage. Education, workplace policy. Managers _love_ Microsoft.

pid-1 3y ago

Office and Active Directory (and related stuff)

delfinom 3y ago

>My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device. Statistically, all devices suffer from swollen batteries. I've even see iPhones and iPads die from swollen batteries. There's a certain tiny % fallout in manufacturing of battery cells where they may degrade and fail prematurely and swelling is a safety feature.

vsnf 3y ago
I had two surfaces die from swollen batteries. The problem was frequent enough that Microsoft Store staff (rip) would exchange it immediately, no questions asked. This was back during the Surface Book 1 days. I’ve been a happy surface user ever since, and haven’t had any other battery or build quality issues since.
wtallis 3y ago
Eventually, almost all LiPo batteries will puff up. But there are definitely some devices that reliably cause this problem far sooner than it should occurr, due to poor charge management and thermal management.

oldpersonintx 3y ago

[dead]

giancarlostoro 3y ago

Yeah, although, having owned a Surface Book 2, and being a .NET developer, the only Windows sytems I'll have in my home will probably be Microsofts own, unless someone makes laptops that are as nice, for half the cost. Things just work on my SB2. The only reason I'll buy a new one is if it either dies, or I see a really good deal. I've had it since 2017 iirc and its been pretty great thus far. My next laptop will likely be a Mac, mines hit the mark where Apple wont let me update anymore, kind of makes me angry that Apple does that to perfectly usable hardware, but I like the ecosystem and my laptop was a min-spec anyway, needs to be upgraded, just waiting on a deal yet again.

GiorgioG 3y ago
Try https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ I recently used it on a 2014 5k iMac to install Sonoma (14.3) and it's been flawless in my experience - everything is buttery smooth as you'd expect. I also installed on a 2015 Macbook (12"...horrible Intel mobile processor.) It works, but the CPU is just too underpowered to do basic stuff like web browsing and messaging...if you're impatient like me anyway ;)
- farawayea 3y ago
  OCLP gives up on security when it modifies the OS to use drivers from an older OS. Machines which use OCLP don't get firmware updates to patch severe security vulnerabilities. It's fine if you just need to make use of some hardware for a bit longer with macOS. Linux may be better in terms of security. It might not be a good fit for many.
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  I did see that, but I heard someone suggest that it might not be the best idea since your OS could become unstable. At some point I may just consider installing Linux on that Macbook, but not before replacing it, since my wife would be upset if she was stuck with Linux. She prefers to just use macOS.
smackeyacky 3y ago

codeulike 3y ago

Surface is pretty well regarded as I understand it. Microsoft set out to make 'the sortof macbook equivlaent for windows' and largely succeeded. Although obviously macbook remains the champion overall I guess. I'm sorry you had a battery problem. For some of the best Windows hardware on the market, look no further than Microsoft’s Surface brand - WIRED Also: I dont ever see ads in Windows, but I guess somone must be getting them. Not sure what I'm doing right to avoid them.

goosedragons 3y ago
Just swipe left to right on Windows 11. The widget page is like 60% ads disguised as news by default. It's so easy to trigger accidentally on Windows tablets. I feel like Windows 11 is the Windows 8 for tablets. They took pretty much every gain and good thing Windows had as tablet OS and made it garbage.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Windows 11 grew up from the Windows 10X remains, thus there is some truth to it.
farawayea 3y ago
Do you sign in with a Microsoft account? If you do, that's probably the reason why you don't see ads in Windows 11. The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps. Microsoft has updated apps even on Windows 10 to recommend other apps. The Photos app was recommending a video editor app recently. Windows 11 shows ads, suggestions and installs a lot of garbage apps to upsell people into office 365, Onedrive and other things. I recently had to reinstall my office that I bought. It signed me into an account without permission and uploaded documents there. I had to sign out of that account to prevent it from uploading documents automatically. Most of the documents I edit contain my PII. I can sue them.
- EarthMephit 3y ago
  > The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps. Macs also do this with their iCloud accounts, with little widgets all around the place prompting you to log in to their app store, etc... if you don't have an account. Possibly those prompts or ads are even more "in-your-face" than Windows? Probably most Mac users don't notice them because most just create an account

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Ecstatify 3y ago

After getting a Mac I’ll never purchase a Windows device again. + Terrible battery + Terrible build quality + Terrible support + Noise of fan having a stroke

helf 3y ago
[dead]
HackerLemon 3y ago
Every single windows device ever has "Terrible build quality"? Weird take
- Ecstatify 3y ago
  €3K Dell XPS - Screen broke (Never left the desk) - “Carbon” started to peel, looks like the laptop has dandruff —— Lenovo https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/lenovo-class-settlement-for-alleged-defects-gets-final-approval# https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/lenovo-class-settle... So many relatives/friends buying €800-€1000 devices that become unusable after 1/2 years. Plastic junk.
  - EarthMephit 3y ago
    My SurfaceBook has a better build quality that my MacBook Pro model from the same era (2019) - MacBooks have improved a lot in the last few years though with the new chips I guess? I prefer the MacOs to Windows, but MacBook hardware was definitely disappointment on this model. I had numerous graphics & power issues on the MacBook Pro, plus touchbar was annoying. Dell & Lenovo are crap, I've given up on them. Surface is good, and I'm happy with my LG Gram.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  There is selection bias in their ownership experience. But I really concur. Microsoft hardware is better than stock Chinese PC hardware, but still not as good as Apple hardware (all produced in China).
3y ago

userbinator 3y ago

Their mouses were great, back when the rest of the company was also a lot less user-hostile.

marcosdumay 3y ago
> Their mouses were great They still are, as long as you don't make the mistake of using them on Windows.

RajT88 3y ago

I have had a few surfaces for work. They are actually really nice hardware, but the Surface Book had one design flaw, which would periodically disconnect USB headsets. That was my only real complaint. I would say the comparison to Macbooks is fair.

exitzer0 3y ago
the special firmware that microsoft uses in these machines breaks network, USB, anything that you attach to it. it just can't get power management right. I've been saddled with one of these for 5+ years and it just never got better.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  Maybe they used to be better. I love my Surface Pro 2. Paired up with Linux, it's a kick ass little machine.
- PennRobotics 3y ago
  Imagine: If Microsoft pushed so hard for Modern Standby and even THEY cannot get it right, why should you trust any laptop designed for Windows to have proper power management?

runjake 3y ago

It’s interesting that everything you just listed also applies to Apple — not that they’re the only alternative here. I guess I should feel fortunate that for Apple, at least the ads are limited to its own range of products. We have a bunch of Surface products deployed at work and those people seem to love them. I can’t think of any high-rate failures affecting them. Edit: Wow, I guess we have a lot of angry Apple fanatics here. Am I wrong somewhere? Please point it out. FWIW, I use and prefer Apple products.

wiseowise 3y ago
Apple hardware is not garbage, to start with.

HackerLemon 3y ago

iOS has push notifications adverts from Apple as well.

skeeter2020 3y ago

The microsoft hardware and OEM devices that MS sold directly were historically THE ones to buy because they were optimized to show off Windows, so no crapware, good drivers, limited BS. I don't know when that changed, but it has. >> are packed with features that business customers have been requesting This is a total lie, unless they're referencing THEIR customers trying to sell you all this shit. The developer story from Microsoft is as good as it's ever been, but the consumer side just sucks. As a historically Windows developer who now does most of their work in .net core or totally outside the MS ecosystem, but still plays the odd triple-A game I don't know what to do for my next computer.

pathartl 3y ago

Honestly, I find this to be such a weird argument. Apple does the same crap with iCloud and people put their hardware on a pedestal when it has the same inherent flaws, often for a much higher price. And maybe you share this opinion, I just want to point out that this hardware from MS is relatively benign in the grand scheme of the PC world.

wiseowise 3y ago
I never seen any iCloud “ad” outside of iCloud settings item. On windows I literally get annoying notification to use OneDrive.
- vizzier 3y ago
  That is because apple doesn't ask you, it just turns it on. If you don't accept changes to their terms of service (As I haven't) you'd get these notifications fairly regularly.
  - snom380 3y ago
    Granted, I have iCloud turned on (for syncing notes and calendar) but I have it turned off for everything else. I’ve never had it ask me to turn on any of the other iCloud features like iCloud backup or drive / desktop sync. (And I’d guess if it synced things without my knowledge it would show up in my iCloud storage usage?)
neodymiumphish 3y ago
Completely agree that Apple does the exact same stuff with account management and iCloud notifications, but I don’t understand where these arguments keep coming from that Apple is more costly. The 13.5 sLaptop 6 for Business is, i5/8gb/256gb is $1200 Compare that the 14” MBP (M3/8gb/512gb) for $1600. The diff in SSD storage offsets some of the cost, but not the whole $400 However, the 13” MacBook Air with the same specs (although a much better CPU) - M3/8gb/256gb is actually $100 cheaper. Until someone builds an actual M3 competitor, Apple’s making better laptops for cheaper. I have an M1 16” MBP that’s still running laps around any other laptop I’ve ever owned, including the 15” sBook 2 with a 1060. The Windows Arm laptop I have sucks compared to the M-series. Anyway, totally agree that Apple does the same cross-sell garbage as Microsoft, just think it’s way off to argue that their hardware is more expensive, at least meaningfully so when you compare the performance, longevity, and battery life.

charlie0 3y ago

I'm glad I moved over to Mac. I know it's not perfect, but it's much better than Windows. They seem determined to lose customers. I really like the concept of the Surface Book and got one several years ago. The keyboard no longer works when detaching the screen, so it's practically useless. Even a full reinstall didn't fix that issue. Their new hardware is moot because ARM is just on a different level. Yeah, they can stick an H class Intel processor, but that will seriously heat up the laptop and eat the battery. The only reason I still use a windows machine is because of gaming. I'm sure lots of users are on Windows because they have no choice.

vizzier 3y ago
> ...can't stop trying to upsell people into using onedrive, forcefully signs you into onedrive, syncs your local files into their cloud without consent, tries really hard to not let you sign in with a local account and most likely does other shady things. This portion of the complaint was a playbook that was defined by Apple and icloud. Feels like an out of the frying pan into the fire situation.
- charlie0 3y ago
  You can use Mac without icloud. They don't push it nearly as hard as Windows.
  - m463 3y ago
    On the other hand apple collects lots of telemetry out of sight.

ksec 3y ago

>Their hardware is more or less garbage. My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device. Macbook has swollen battery issue as well. Microsoft Hardware is more or less the best on the PC market. The only company that spend R&D money from I/O, Speaker, Keyboard, Trackpad etc to try and match Apple MacBook if not exceed it. And a lot of these innovation or improvements gets filtered through to other PC OEM over the years. You can shit about Microsoft software all you want. But in terms of PC Laptop market, they have done far more than most of the other companies. Had Pro Gaming / Pro Sumer Laptop not been a thing most other laptop manufacture would continue to milk and sell absolute garbage a la HP or Dell not a long time ago.

jjeaff 3y ago

You need to get windows 11 pro. the home versions or anything less than pro is subsidized by ads.

luyu_wu 3y ago
Not sure where this info is coming from? Untrue from my experience.

Terretta 3y ago

> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage. Who cares. Just make sure Apple isn't allowed to hold a line on doing things differently, then everyone else can compete fine?

pests 3y ago

The Windows division reports to the CEO of Advertising, of course it's gonna be like this.