14 ms·

What is a pig butchering scam? (2023)

134 points by baud147258 3y ago

rubenbe 3y ago
The Darknet Diaries podcast recently had an episode on this type of scam: https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/141/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/141/
- bobchadwick 3y ago
  As did Search Engine: https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-.... That episode takes a really dark turn.
- gunnarde 3y ago
  Came here to say this! Great episode
- dc-programmer 3y ago
  Mild spoiler, but I could not find corroboration for the black axe human sacrifice claims anywhere on the internet
yungporko 3y ago
paywalled
shaicoleman 3y ago
https://archive.is/BvEqS https://archive.is/BvEqS
cameron_b 3y ago
Last Week Tonight, on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg
- nytesky 3y ago
  The divorcee with terminal cancer losing 2.8M was soul crushing.
- ahi 3y ago
  I was vaguely aware of the scam, but didn't realize that most of the perpetrators are also victims. Whole thing is very depressing.
acover 3y ago
Are there bank accounts that have a person watching every transaction and can call you to ask why you went to a Bitcoin ATM? A bank account an elderly person with dementia could use?
- graemep 3y ago
  If you have a few million in liquid assets than a private bank might do that. Some do (or used to) manual daily reviews of balances and manual sweeps to interest bearing accounts so its not inconceivable. For anything less, its too much work.
- nytesky 3y ago
  You setup a trust, and you run a main account with automatic transfer to their spending account for day to day.
- bradley13 3y ago
  I know someone who, due to ADHD, has trouble paying their bills on time, and managing their money. They found a legal service that handles their basic finances, and gives them their budget for shopping, fun-money, etc.. The service is surprisingly reasonable, something well under $100/month. While not quite what you asked, a service like this would at least provide an additional barrier, before someone hands over their net worth to a scammer. The next step after that, often used for elderly people, involves a full power of attorney: someone else is completely responsible for their finances, and hands them either cash or a debit card with a small amount of money that they can use however they want. But that is for extreme cases.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    Sounds like a great service. What is their name?
    - bradley13 3y ago
      Probably not applicable to you, it's just a small legal/financial/tax services office here in Switzerland. Not sure how he found them - maybe they did his taxes, and he asked?
causi 3y ago
the scammer seizes the opportunity to strike up a conversation and guide the victim toward feeling like they’ve hit it off with a new friend Ah, so not something we of the 'tism need worry about. The only way I respond to wrong numbers is by blocking them.
- BadHumans 3y ago
  I sent a text to wrong number last week and I'm grateful the recipient let me know it was a wrong number so I wasn't just sitting there waiting for a reply from my friend that was never going to come.
- digging 3y ago
  Mostly, although autistic folks can also get extremely lonely and we all present differently. A few years ago I actually got one of these "random wrong number" texts and, although I thought it was real and responded, I just didn't engage when they tried to keep talking. I did suspect it was a scam at that point but even if it hadn't been, I was not interested in meeting any random person - statistically we would not likely get along!
7174n6 3y ago
There is a move to rename the crime to "financial grooming" because the term "pig butchering" is an intentional form of victim shaming. Anyone who is still using the term pig butchering should be immediately discredited.
- spaceisballer 3y ago
  Honestly that makes sense, the main reason the public doesn’t hear about these things is because victims don’t want to speak on this. They just got swindled, can you really blame them?
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    In almost every scam there is an element of "grey legal area", where the victim thinks that they are doing something slightly illegal or completely illegal and that's why it is going to pay out so well for them. That is to make sure victims don't tell police or really anybody. "Hey I was putting all my money into this criminal scheme, but instead I got scammed, can you help me?" That is why we have the old saying: "You can't fool an honest man"
    - digging 3y ago
      > In almost every scam there is an element of "grey legal area", where the victim thinks that they are doing something slightly illegal or completely illegal That isn't true of pig-butchering scams, or in general. > That is why we have the old saying: "You can't fool an honest man" The saying is "You can't cheat an honest man". And it's also bullshit. Don't trust old sayings; you can quote me on that.
      - carlosjobim 3y ago
        How are you so sure, and why are you so angry as to rage against old sayings? The pig butcher scammers might very well tell their victims that the supposed crypto investments are not allowed in China, to make them seem more lucrative.
noodlesUK 3y ago
The thing that I don't understand is why the telecom companies that are letting these scammers SMS spam en masse are not being cut out of the domestic telecom market. There should be a certain percentage of spam reports to legitimate messages that is just permadeath for the telco. I'm pretty sure if I tried to use twilio to send these kinds of messages I'd get banned, but there are sketchy sms/sip companies who go out of their way to enable the bad behaviour. STIR/SHAKEN is a good start, but we need to come down hard on this.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Nobody seriously tries to stop spam because they make money off it. If someone tells you that it's impossible to trace the origins of spam, ask yourself how they can know whom to bill. The reality is that it's possible and easy but only when the bottom-line is concerned.
  - noodlesUK 3y ago
    This is why there needs to be regulation with teeth. It needs to make business sense to prevent spam/scams by there being penalties for screwing things up, and incentives for doing well. Otherwise you're right, unscrupulous telco companies like to make money by charging scammers to send messages to customers.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      We need regulation and regulators with a minimum of technical skills, common sense and bribery/lobbying being adequately punished that it's no longer seen as worth it. Currently that's not the case, so the excuse of not being able to trace the source of the spam is successfully preempting regulation as nobody involved has the skills and/or financial incentives to ask "hold on, how come you know who to bill but not who's originating the spam?".
      - ryandrake 3y ago
        We need a proactive and inquisitive press that questions PR and asks these companies to clarify why they say what they say. Our current media simply reports “In a statement, Company X said Y” and leaves it at that.
nytesky 3y ago
The fake apps for the scam are egregious. Come on Apple Store. Honestly for ACH and wire transfers they should have required financial counseling before executing — I remember that women with the “CIA” cash scam was handed a brochure, maybe they should sit down with CFP or someone before they can execute.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Your daily reminder that Apple has a walled garden to protect you.... from giving anyone else a 30% cut of every payment you make. App that claims to be a trading business? Sure, greenlit no problems here. App that is obviously a scam version of lastpass? Hell yeah, get on the app store, you pass muster. A trivial update to an open source app that doesn't even have any form of payment and requires nearly no permissions because it's not sending your data to fifteen different data brokers? Hey, hold on there, that sounds sketchy so you will be denied
breadwinner 3y ago
I have experience with this (but didn't fall for the scam). The scammer, whom I met on social media, was extremely convincing. She claimed to be wealthy. She has pictures with celebrities, pictures with her Lamborghini, and so on. She said her stepfather is an executive in the Monetary Authority of Singapore, which gives him access to information that other people cannot have. This information allows her to make currency pair trades that bring guaranteed profits. (This would be insider trading, technically.) She showed me screenshots of trades where she made $250,000 USD to $500,000 USD in a matter of 30 minutes (buys and sells in 30 minutes; timing is based on instructions from her stepfather). Then she encouraged me to make trades with my own money as well. She asked me to install the Coinbase Wallet app. She asked me to press the Browse button in this app, then type seemingly random characters into the box. (Part of the scam here is that victims may not realize they are actually typing a website URL). The website then displays inside the Coinbase Wallet app, and its function appears to be part of Coinbase Wallet. She had me create a demo account, and guided me through the steps of making a demo transaction and showed me that I could make a significant profit. Then she asked me to make a real account. By this point I was suspecting a scam so I did not go through. All this happened over a period of 3 weeks, so the scammer takes her time to "groom" victims. An Asian lady who speaks Mandarin and speaks good English with the help of translation apps. I never met the lady in person (she claimed to be on the other coast of the USA), but I did have a video call with her. She claimed to have been using the website for two years (but in fact, internet records show this site was only created weeks before). I discovered that her phone numbers are Twilio and Google Voice VOIP numbers, and her IP address is Azure, which probably means she is logged in to an Azure VM from another country. Warning signs: They are always far enough away that you can't meet in person, but promises she will be moving to your city soon. (Or they are from your city, but currently away on business). Wants to switch to WhatsApp or Telegram. They always do video call to show that they are a real person. Shows off their wealth, mansion-like houses, fancy cars, dining at expensive restaurants. Casually mentions investing in crypto as their source of wealth. Then wants to show you how to invest in crypto yourself. Edit: Here are some pictures the scammer shared with me. She is with celebs (Asian celebs, I don't recognize them), in her new Lamborghini at the dealership and so on: https://imgur.com/a/uRKaE8g https://imgur.com/a/uRKaE8g https://imgur.com/a/HV7v1XF https://imgur.com/a/HV7v1XF https://imgur.com/a/vDvifL2 https://imgur.com/a/vDvifL2 https://imgur.com/a/sI01Upb https://imgur.com/a/sI01Upb
ryandrake 3y ago
Everyone with elderly parents needs to at some point sit down and have “The Talk” with them about online scams and ideally media literacy in general. The scams are getting more sophisticated (technically and socially) and the scammers are getting much more patient and long-term focused since they can rely on not getting shut down. With convincingly articulate LLMs on the horizon, the problem is only going to get worse and more accessible to would be scammers. Yes, it’s not just the elderly who are victims of these, but a lot of people at that age are too trusting of strangers and of people who sound like authorities. And let’s face it: older people have all the wealth in the world anyway so they’re more likely to be fruitful targets.
- boringg 3y ago
  "And let’s face it: older people have all the wealth in the world anyway so they’re more likely to be fruitful targets." Your comment would have resonated without the unnecessary last line that I don't even believe - are they they the ones who built all the technology companies in the last two decades?
  - kennywinker 3y ago
    In a capitalist system, you don’t have to build anything to have all the wealth. Statistically I believe op is correct, wealth is more concentrated in older demographics, and it has been increasing in concentration for quite a while now.
  - organsnyder 3y ago
    Baby boomers and Silent Generation people hold over 60% of the wealth in the United States. Gen X-ers have about 30%. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/more-than-half-of-us-wealth-belongs-to-baby-boomers:-will-other-generations-catch-up https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/more-than-half-of-us-wealth-...
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Baby boomers and Silent Generation people hold over 60% of the wealth in the United States. Gen X-ers have about 30%. It would be more significant that the first two groups have twice as much aggregate wealth as the last if they didn't also have over a time and a half the population. (>30% vs. <20%.) https://www.statista.com/statistics/296974/us-population-share-by-generation/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/296974/us-population-sha...
freitzkriesler2 3y ago
Father fell prey to one of these scams. He asked me about crypto trading and mining so I talked him through it. He then mentioned he was doing it through a company whose name was big in the forex world. I got confused because the forex company wasn't involved in crypto so I asked him for the site nor was anything he said related to trading or mining. Going to the site, i immediately knew it was a scam. I asked him how he got a hold of this and some chinese woman had cold texted him. He's a senior so of course boomers are ripe for the pick since he lived alone. Ended up buying $10k worth of crypto to send to this scam site. When he tried to withdraw they sent h some nonsense email about tax withholding from the WTO and subsequently "froze" his account until he deposited 75% more. The worst part of the ordeal was how defensive he got with me about it. He was more concerned with the nonsensical scenario of him losing his PoA than losing $10k to an otherwise obvious scam. I showed him some of the fun culturally insulting things I've said to indian and Chinese scammers who cold text. Dad ended up getting a part time job to occupy himself and have some people to talk to. Haven't heard about him day trading or mining crypto either. I said if he wants to get into day trading to do it through some US based company you've heard before and if he wants to mine crypto, then I'll help him find hardware to do it.
- baobabKoodaa 3y ago
  > I said if he wants to get into day trading to do it through some US based company you've heard before and if he wants to mine crypto, then I'll help him find hardware to do it. I like that you didn't tell him to stop doing these things entirely (even though that might arguably be for his best) but instead you told him you would help him do these things if he wants to do them.
  - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
    It's his money to lose. Id rather he be day trading and losing money with a slight chance he might get lucky than playing slot machines which are a guaranteed to lose money. Crypto mining is a passive activity so no harm there
ct0 3y ago
My company has phishing tests regularly. There needs to be a subscription service to test your elderly and disabled loved ones on their ability to discern a scam from non-scam.
- badcppdev 3y ago
  Perhaps it needs to be like vaccines and immune systems... pay someone to scam your elderly relatives for small amounts of money so they learn.
coupdejarnac 3y ago
I've encountered this so many times, and it always follows a similar pattern. I tell them to fuck off in Chinese and call it a day.
- FabHK 3y ago
  Remember though that many of the people manning the chats are trafficked victims themselves.
  - coupdejarnac 3y ago
    That makes no difference.
freitzkriesler2 3y ago
I get a lot of scammers on my IG account messaging me. Typically they're the profiles of young women. A lot of the time, I verbally insult them or ask how the cat fishing is going. My favorite is telling them to stand in front of a mirror with the current date written on a piece of paper. Since they're all ESL, they fail this hard. But one time, I decided to see how far I could take it. Had a scammer message and follow me on IG. I went ahead with it. We kept it going for about a month which escalated to sending pretty scandalous pictures. The scammer asked to me my d*ck. Full disclosure, I'm a pretty average 5.5 inches. Instead of sending a real picture of mine, I found one online of some guy who had a massive slong held next to what looked like a 7/11 big gulp cup for comparison. I sent the pic to him and immediately the scammer reveals himself and threatens to reveal my messages and pic to my other followers on IG unless I send him some Bitcoin. I chuckle and say, "go for it". Now my friends all know me really well and wouldn't be phased by this. My buddies I went to school with know my size because of the sports teams I played on with them and they thought it was the funniest thing in the world. The girls all immediately began talking amongst themselves and I started getting hit on by acquantances that followed me. Was probably one of the funniest stunts I've ever done.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Wait, wait, wait… the scammer actually made good on his threat to send the Big Gulp Schlong picture to all your friends? LOL I never knew what they did when you called their bluff. That’s amazing!
  - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
    Yup he did. This was a year or so ago and it was the funniest thing I've ever done.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      Holy shit, I want to do this so bad now. Maybe I’ll start answering those “Hot Asian MILFs In Your Area Want To Sex You” ads. LOLOLOL. Sadly they’re probably just OF ads and not scams though.
deleted 3y ago
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notShabu 3y ago
An insight that allowed me to get past mental blockers to bargaining (guilt, awkwardness, etc...) was the thought "I am a person, just like you, not some animal to be milked" This allows the price to be sought in a non-adversarial way since it makes building a connection and understanding of the local situation a part of the communication. Much of the awkwardness comes from not really understanding how the local market and local way of life works while also basically being royalty from an economic perspective. This out-of-touchness creates a principal agent problem where the "foreign" other is distrusted but also relied on for "truth". The negative experience doesn't come from the literal economic damage of being scammed but being treated (or programmed) like a pig let to slaughter.
RajT88 3y ago
I like to string scammers along for fun, if I have spare time. These "pig butchering" scams provide hilarious possibilities. They like to send their photo pretty early (always an attractive Asian lady), so I try and beat them to the punch and send my own photo (of course, also a photo of an Asian lady). Curiously, this doesn't deter them! My wife finds this particularly hilarious. One time, I had 2 people randomly texting me at the same time, using the same name - Jenny. I started sending them screenshots of each other's conversations, which kind of annoyed them. "Which Jenny is this? Do you know the other Jenny?" lol A list of things which also doesn't seem to deter them or make them think they might be being toyed with: - Claiming to work for the FBI (in an anti-scammer unit) - Being homeless - Claiming to be Peter Frampton - Claiming to be Bill Clinton
- muttled 3y ago
  I'd be surprised, given the technical savviness and polish of these scams, if they weren't using LLM's that are scripted such that the bot isn't "aware" it's a scam.
  - RajT88 3y ago
    I don't think they are. They don't immediately reply all the time. And like I say - they get annoyed sometimes and tell me to fuck off once they figure out I'm toying with them.
  - Muromec 3y ago
    The real way they do it is by offering a nice job in IT to somebody with a passable written English (read Indian), then traffic them to Shan states in Myanmar and beat them into doing it. Apparently it scales better and is more predictable than LLM.
    - sp332 3y ago
      Also the Philippines https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68562643 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68562643
    - 3y ago
deathanatos 3y ago
Jim Browning did a thing on these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu-Y1h9rTUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu-Y1h9rTUs The second half of the scam — the cryptocurrency theft. The one I've seen recently is variations on any of the terms "ChatGPT MEV arbitrage ETH slippage bot"; in essence, the author claims to have used ChatGPT to write a bot that waves hands does something something with arbitrage and makes tons of money. The explanation is technobabble, and the claims are often like "earn returns of $2k/day", which is of course solidly into the "way too good to be true" territory. The "smart" contract just steals your money, it's that simple. I have been seeing these all over my YouTube sponsored videos. I.e., the scammers are running these as ads. I've reported them as I see them, but thus far, YouTube has taken down exactly none of them, AFAICT. (In fact, my entire report history is 0% removed, despite every entry being a rather crystal clear ToS violation since I'd otherwise have been too lazy to go through the flow for it.) As I write this, both ad slots on the homepage are this scam.
- pornel 3y ago
  Instagram is also full of these scam ads, and they remove maybe 1 in 20 I report. Many of them are obviously fake or hacked accounts, e.g. having "Nail Salon" as the business type on their profile, but their posts are promising $$$ if you have an account on Binance.
theshrike79 3y ago
I wonder when banks start offering delayed payment options, similar to vaults having timed locks. You can transfer that 100k to the Very Reliable Businessman, but it'll require you to accept the transfer now and confirm it 2-3 business days later before it activates. I'd really want one of those on my accounts when I get older, preferably with a limit closer to 1k.
- Muromec 3y ago
  Just give your second factor to your children once you get older, they will also be more aware of scams
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The problem is, the people being scammed are convinced what they are doing is necessary. When our system prevents a grandma from buying $500 of iTunes gift cards at Target because it is clearly a scam, they will call our customer support help line and beg us to help them "get their niece out of jail" or whatever bullshit has been fed to them. We literally have to fight them to help them not be scammed. By the time you are sending someone money, you "trust" them.
robrenaud 3y ago
Is there a sustainable business for a company that monetizes defenses against pig butchering? If you could make a honey pot LLM that engages the scammers, costing them time and learning their patterns, even misleading the scammers and figuring out their crypto wallets, could that be a profitable endeavor?
lazyeye 3y ago
Cambodian slave labor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-17/crypto-text-message-scams-lead-back-to-cambodia-slave-labor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-17/crypto...
harkinian 3y ago
Doesn't help how even a legitimate investing platform often won't let you withdraw money immediately.
not2b 3y ago
John Oliver did an excellent explainer about how pig butchering works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg (apologies if the YouTube link has geographic restrictions, don't know if it does)
- circa 3y ago
  Came to post this too. It was a great piece on it. I'm glad more people are becoming aware of them. They're starting to get out of control.
  - not2b 3y ago
    One thing I didn't understand before his piece was how often the person who is trying to defraud you is being coerced to do it, sometimes in slavery-like conditions.
projektfu 3y ago
I had one of these working on me for a while, years ago. It took me a while to catch on but then I also am not quick to send money to someone. The scammer reached out from a public forum (language learning app) and then traded WhatsApp numbers. At first I thought it was just an eccentric person, but then I realized their goal was to get me to "invest" with their "rich uncle". At this point I hadn't heard about this specific scam, as most scams are kind of low effort and quick to screen people for susceptibility. This one surprised me in that they were very good at acting like someone they claimed to be. Google Translate has gotten to the point where people can carry on a conversation in their own language and talk to someone in English without sounding too odd. Before I blocked the scammer I took a closer look at "her" WhatsApp profile. She was a business account. Big red flag, I wish I had noticed that before. Still, if no money changes hands it's free entertainment? I also learned by paper trading on Forex that I suck at it and shouldn't play that game. Crypto scammers also sometimes try to play the long game, and I think they are based in different countries from the pig butchers. I met one through the same platform and saw through it right away, but noticed that they were working as a pitchman for another scammer.
ametrau 3y ago
There’s something missing from all these discussions. The country where the caller is located.
thefourthchime 3y ago
PJ Vagt (from Reply All) has a FANTASTIC episode about this. Give it a listen, it's one of the most interesting podcasts I've heard since the golden days of Reply All. https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-...
- FireInsight 3y ago
  Reply All is still my comfort podcast for short walks. Nothing has yet reclaimed the throne of being my most listened from it. Search Engine carries the torch somewhat, and is really good for it's scope, wjch obviously differs from the scope of Reply All.
sarahwoodssarah 3y ago
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bella014 3y ago
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134 points by baud147258 3y ago

The Darknet Diaries podcast recently had an episode on this type of scam: https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/141/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/141/

bobchadwick 3y ago
As did Search Engine: https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-.... That episode takes a really dark turn.
gunnarde 3y ago
Came here to say this! Great episode
dc-programmer 3y ago
Mild spoiler, but I could not find corroboration for the black axe human sacrifice claims anywhere on the internet

yungporko 3y ago

paywalled

shaicoleman 3y ago

https://archive.is/BvEqS https://archive.is/BvEqS

cameron_b 3y ago

Last Week Tonight, on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg

nytesky 3y ago
The divorcee with terminal cancer losing 2.8M was soul crushing.
ahi 3y ago
I was vaguely aware of the scam, but didn't realize that most of the perpetrators are also victims. Whole thing is very depressing.

acover 3y ago

Are there bank accounts that have a person watching every transaction and can call you to ask why you went to a Bitcoin ATM? A bank account an elderly person with dementia could use?

graemep 3y ago
If you have a few million in liquid assets than a private bank might do that. Some do (or used to) manual daily reviews of balances and manual sweeps to interest bearing accounts so its not inconceivable. For anything less, its too much work.
nytesky 3y ago
You setup a trust, and you run a main account with automatic transfer to their spending account for day to day.
bradley13 3y ago
I know someone who, due to ADHD, has trouble paying their bills on time, and managing their money. They found a legal service that handles their basic finances, and gives them their budget for shopping, fun-money, etc.. The service is surprisingly reasonable, something well under $100/month. While not quite what you asked, a service like this would at least provide an additional barrier, before someone hands over their net worth to a scammer. The next step after that, often used for elderly people, involves a full power of attorney: someone else is completely responsible for their finances, and hands them either cash or a debit card with a small amount of money that they can use however they want. But that is for extreme cases.
- javajosh 3y ago
  Sounds like a great service. What is their name?
  - bradley13 3y ago
    Probably not applicable to you, it's just a small legal/financial/tax services office here in Switzerland. Not sure how he found them - maybe they did his taxes, and he asked?

causi 3y ago

the scammer seizes the opportunity to strike up a conversation and guide the victim toward feeling like they’ve hit it off with a new friend Ah, so not something we of the 'tism need worry about. The only way I respond to wrong numbers is by blocking them.

BadHumans 3y ago
I sent a text to wrong number last week and I'm grateful the recipient let me know it was a wrong number so I wasn't just sitting there waiting for a reply from my friend that was never going to come.
digging 3y ago
Mostly, although autistic folks can also get extremely lonely and we all present differently. A few years ago I actually got one of these "random wrong number" texts and, although I thought it was real and responded, I just didn't engage when they tried to keep talking. I did suspect it was a scam at that point but even if it hadn't been, I was not interested in meeting any random person - statistically we would not likely get along!

7174n6 3y ago

There is a move to rename the crime to "financial grooming" because the term "pig butchering" is an intentional form of victim shaming. Anyone who is still using the term pig butchering should be immediately discredited.

spaceisballer 3y ago
Honestly that makes sense, the main reason the public doesn’t hear about these things is because victims don’t want to speak on this. They just got swindled, can you really blame them?
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  In almost every scam there is an element of "grey legal area", where the victim thinks that they are doing something slightly illegal or completely illegal and that's why it is going to pay out so well for them. That is to make sure victims don't tell police or really anybody. "Hey I was putting all my money into this criminal scheme, but instead I got scammed, can you help me?" That is why we have the old saying: "You can't fool an honest man"
  - digging 3y ago
    > In almost every scam there is an element of "grey legal area", where the victim thinks that they are doing something slightly illegal or completely illegal That isn't true of pig-butchering scams, or in general. > That is why we have the old saying: "You can't fool an honest man" The saying is "You can't cheat an honest man". And it's also bullshit. Don't trust old sayings; you can quote me on that.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      How are you so sure, and why are you so angry as to rage against old sayings? The pig butcher scammers might very well tell their victims that the supposed crypto investments are not allowed in China, to make them seem more lucrative.

noodlesUK 3y ago

The thing that I don't understand is why the telecom companies that are letting these scammers SMS spam en masse are not being cut out of the domestic telecom market. There should be a certain percentage of spam reports to legitimate messages that is just permadeath for the telco. I'm pretty sure if I tried to use twilio to send these kinds of messages I'd get banned, but there are sketchy sms/sip companies who go out of their way to enable the bad behaviour. STIR/SHAKEN is a good start, but we need to come down hard on this.

Nextgrid 3y ago
Nobody seriously tries to stop spam because they make money off it. If someone tells you that it's impossible to trace the origins of spam, ask yourself how they can know whom to bill. The reality is that it's possible and easy but only when the bottom-line is concerned.
- noodlesUK 3y ago
  This is why there needs to be regulation with teeth. It needs to make business sense to prevent spam/scams by there being penalties for screwing things up, and incentives for doing well. Otherwise you're right, unscrupulous telco companies like to make money by charging scammers to send messages to customers.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    We need regulation and regulators with a minimum of technical skills, common sense and bribery/lobbying being adequately punished that it's no longer seen as worth it. Currently that's not the case, so the excuse of not being able to trace the source of the spam is successfully preempting regulation as nobody involved has the skills and/or financial incentives to ask "hold on, how come you know who to bill but not who's originating the spam?".
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      We need a proactive and inquisitive press that questions PR and asks these companies to clarify why they say what they say. Our current media simply reports “In a statement, Company X said Y” and leaves it at that.

nytesky 3y ago

The fake apps for the scam are egregious. Come on Apple Store. Honestly for ACH and wire transfers they should have required financial counseling before executing — I remember that women with the “CIA” cash scam was handed a brochure, maybe they should sit down with CFP or someone before they can execute.

mrguyorama 3y ago
Your daily reminder that Apple has a walled garden to protect you.... from giving anyone else a 30% cut of every payment you make. App that claims to be a trading business? Sure, greenlit no problems here. App that is obviously a scam version of lastpass? Hell yeah, get on the app store, you pass muster. A trivial update to an open source app that doesn't even have any form of payment and requires nearly no permissions because it's not sending your data to fifteen different data brokers? Hey, hold on there, that sounds sketchy so you will be denied

breadwinner 3y ago

I have experience with this (but didn't fall for the scam). The scammer, whom I met on social media, was extremely convincing. She claimed to be wealthy. She has pictures with celebrities, pictures with her Lamborghini, and so on. She said her stepfather is an executive in the Monetary Authority of Singapore, which gives him access to information that other people cannot have. This information allows her to make currency pair trades that bring guaranteed profits. (This would be insider trading, technically.) She showed me screenshots of trades where she made $250,000 USD to $500,000 USD in a matter of 30 minutes (buys and sells in 30 minutes; timing is based on instructions from her stepfather). Then she encouraged me to make trades with my own money as well. She asked me to install the Coinbase Wallet app. She asked me to press the Browse button in this app, then type seemingly random characters into the box. (Part of the scam here is that victims may not realize they are actually typing a website URL). The website then displays inside the Coinbase Wallet app, and its function appears to be part of Coinbase Wallet. She had me create a demo account, and guided me through the steps of making a demo transaction and showed me that I could make a significant profit. Then she asked me to make a real account. By this point I was suspecting a scam so I did not go through. All this happened over a period of 3 weeks, so the scammer takes her time to "groom" victims. An Asian lady who speaks Mandarin and speaks good English with the help of translation apps. I never met the lady in person (she claimed to be on the other coast of the USA), but I did have a video call with her. She claimed to have been using the website for two years (but in fact, internet records show this site was only created weeks before). I discovered that her phone numbers are Twilio and Google Voice VOIP numbers, and her IP address is Azure, which probably means she is logged in to an Azure VM from another country. Warning signs: They are always far enough away that you can't meet in person, but promises she will be moving to your city soon. (Or they are from your city, but currently away on business). Wants to switch to WhatsApp or Telegram. They always do video call to show that they are a real person. Shows off their wealth, mansion-like houses, fancy cars, dining at expensive restaurants. Casually mentions investing in crypto as their source of wealth. Then wants to show you how to invest in crypto yourself. Edit: Here are some pictures the scammer shared with me. She is with celebs (Asian celebs, I don't recognize them), in her new Lamborghini at the dealership and so on: https://imgur.com/a/uRKaE8g https://imgur.com/a/uRKaE8g https://imgur.com/a/HV7v1XF https://imgur.com/a/HV7v1XF https://imgur.com/a/vDvifL2 https://imgur.com/a/vDvifL2 https://imgur.com/a/sI01Upb https://imgur.com/a/sI01Upb

ryandrake 3y ago

Everyone with elderly parents needs to at some point sit down and have “The Talk” with them about online scams and ideally media literacy in general. The scams are getting more sophisticated (technically and socially) and the scammers are getting much more patient and long-term focused since they can rely on not getting shut down. With convincingly articulate LLMs on the horizon, the problem is only going to get worse and more accessible to would be scammers. Yes, it’s not just the elderly who are victims of these, but a lot of people at that age are too trusting of strangers and of people who sound like authorities. And let’s face it: older people have all the wealth in the world anyway so they’re more likely to be fruitful targets.

boringg 3y ago
"And let’s face it: older people have all the wealth in the world anyway so they’re more likely to be fruitful targets." Your comment would have resonated without the unnecessary last line that I don't even believe - are they they the ones who built all the technology companies in the last two decades?
- kennywinker 3y ago
  In a capitalist system, you don’t have to build anything to have all the wealth. Statistically I believe op is correct, wealth is more concentrated in older demographics, and it has been increasing in concentration for quite a while now.
- organsnyder 3y ago
  Baby boomers and Silent Generation people hold over 60% of the wealth in the United States. Gen X-ers have about 30%. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/more-than-half-of-us-wealth-belongs-to-baby-boomers:-will-other-generations-catch-up https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/more-than-half-of-us-wealth-...
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Baby boomers and Silent Generation people hold over 60% of the wealth in the United States. Gen X-ers have about 30%. It would be more significant that the first two groups have twice as much aggregate wealth as the last if they didn't also have over a time and a half the population. (>30% vs. <20%.) https://www.statista.com/statistics/296974/us-population-share-by-generation/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/296974/us-population-sha...

freitzkriesler2 3y ago

Father fell prey to one of these scams. He asked me about crypto trading and mining so I talked him through it. He then mentioned he was doing it through a company whose name was big in the forex world. I got confused because the forex company wasn't involved in crypto so I asked him for the site nor was anything he said related to trading or mining. Going to the site, i immediately knew it was a scam. I asked him how he got a hold of this and some chinese woman had cold texted him. He's a senior so of course boomers are ripe for the pick since he lived alone. Ended up buying $10k worth of crypto to send to this scam site. When he tried to withdraw they sent h some nonsense email about tax withholding from the WTO and subsequently "froze" his account until he deposited 75% more. The worst part of the ordeal was how defensive he got with me about it. He was more concerned with the nonsensical scenario of him losing his PoA than losing $10k to an otherwise obvious scam. I showed him some of the fun culturally insulting things I've said to indian and Chinese scammers who cold text. Dad ended up getting a part time job to occupy himself and have some people to talk to. Haven't heard about him day trading or mining crypto either. I said if he wants to get into day trading to do it through some US based company you've heard before and if he wants to mine crypto, then I'll help him find hardware to do it.

baobabKoodaa 3y ago
> I said if he wants to get into day trading to do it through some US based company you've heard before and if he wants to mine crypto, then I'll help him find hardware to do it. I like that you didn't tell him to stop doing these things entirely (even though that might arguably be for his best) but instead you told him you would help him do these things if he wants to do them.
- freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  It's his money to lose. Id rather he be day trading and losing money with a slight chance he might get lucky than playing slot machines which are a guaranteed to lose money. Crypto mining is a passive activity so no harm there

ct0 3y ago

My company has phishing tests regularly. There needs to be a subscription service to test your elderly and disabled loved ones on their ability to discern a scam from non-scam.

badcppdev 3y ago
Perhaps it needs to be like vaccines and immune systems... pay someone to scam your elderly relatives for small amounts of money so they learn.

coupdejarnac 3y ago

I've encountered this so many times, and it always follows a similar pattern. I tell them to fuck off in Chinese and call it a day.

FabHK 3y ago
Remember though that many of the people manning the chats are trafficked victims themselves.
- coupdejarnac 3y ago
  That makes no difference.

freitzkriesler2 3y ago

I get a lot of scammers on my IG account messaging me. Typically they're the profiles of young women. A lot of the time, I verbally insult them or ask how the cat fishing is going. My favorite is telling them to stand in front of a mirror with the current date written on a piece of paper. Since they're all ESL, they fail this hard. But one time, I decided to see how far I could take it. Had a scammer message and follow me on IG. I went ahead with it. We kept it going for about a month which escalated to sending pretty scandalous pictures. The scammer asked to me my d*ck. Full disclosure, I'm a pretty average 5.5 inches. Instead of sending a real picture of mine, I found one online of some guy who had a massive slong held next to what looked like a 7/11 big gulp cup for comparison. I sent the pic to him and immediately the scammer reveals himself and threatens to reveal my messages and pic to my other followers on IG unless I send him some Bitcoin. I chuckle and say, "go for it". Now my friends all know me really well and wouldn't be phased by this. My buddies I went to school with know my size because of the sports teams I played on with them and they thought it was the funniest thing in the world. The girls all immediately began talking amongst themselves and I started getting hit on by acquantances that followed me. Was probably one of the funniest stunts I've ever done.

ryandrake 3y ago
Wait, wait, wait… the scammer actually made good on his threat to send the Big Gulp Schlong picture to all your friends? LOL I never knew what they did when you called their bluff. That’s amazing!
- freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  Yup he did. This was a year or so ago and it was the funniest thing I've ever done.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Holy shit, I want to do this so bad now. Maybe I’ll start answering those “Hot Asian MILFs In Your Area Want To Sex You” ads. LOLOLOL. Sadly they’re probably just OF ads and not scams though.

deleted 3y ago

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notShabu 3y ago

An insight that allowed me to get past mental blockers to bargaining (guilt, awkwardness, etc...) was the thought "I am a person, just like you, not some animal to be milked" This allows the price to be sought in a non-adversarial way since it makes building a connection and understanding of the local situation a part of the communication. Much of the awkwardness comes from not really understanding how the local market and local way of life works while also basically being royalty from an economic perspective. This out-of-touchness creates a principal agent problem where the "foreign" other is distrusted but also relied on for "truth". The negative experience doesn't come from the literal economic damage of being scammed but being treated (or programmed) like a pig let to slaughter.

RajT88 3y ago

I like to string scammers along for fun, if I have spare time. These "pig butchering" scams provide hilarious possibilities. They like to send their photo pretty early (always an attractive Asian lady), so I try and beat them to the punch and send my own photo (of course, also a photo of an Asian lady). Curiously, this doesn't deter them! My wife finds this particularly hilarious. One time, I had 2 people randomly texting me at the same time, using the same name - Jenny. I started sending them screenshots of each other's conversations, which kind of annoyed them. "Which Jenny is this? Do you know the other Jenny?" lol A list of things which also doesn't seem to deter them or make them think they might be being toyed with: - Claiming to work for the FBI (in an anti-scammer unit) - Being homeless - Claiming to be Peter Frampton - Claiming to be Bill Clinton

muttled 3y ago
I'd be surprised, given the technical savviness and polish of these scams, if they weren't using LLM's that are scripted such that the bot isn't "aware" it's a scam.
- RajT88 3y ago
  I don't think they are. They don't immediately reply all the time. And like I say - they get annoyed sometimes and tell me to fuck off once they figure out I'm toying with them.
- Muromec 3y ago
  The real way they do it is by offering a nice job in IT to somebody with a passable written English (read Indian), then traffic them to Shan states in Myanmar and beat them into doing it. Apparently it scales better and is more predictable than LLM.
  - sp332 3y ago
    Also the Philippines https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68562643 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68562643
  - 3y ago

deathanatos 3y ago

Jim Browning did a thing on these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu-Y1h9rTUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu-Y1h9rTUs The second half of the scam — the cryptocurrency theft. The one I've seen recently is variations on any of the terms "ChatGPT MEV arbitrage ETH slippage bot"; in essence, the author claims to have used ChatGPT to write a bot that waves hands does something something with arbitrage and makes tons of money. The explanation is technobabble, and the claims are often like "earn returns of $2k/day", which is of course solidly into the "way too good to be true" territory. The "smart" contract just steals your money, it's that simple. I have been seeing these all over my YouTube sponsored videos. I.e., the scammers are running these as ads. I've reported them as I see them, but thus far, YouTube has taken down exactly none of them, AFAICT. (In fact, my entire report history is 0% removed, despite every entry being a rather crystal clear ToS violation since I'd otherwise have been too lazy to go through the flow for it.) As I write this, both ad slots on the homepage are this scam.

pornel 3y ago
Instagram is also full of these scam ads, and they remove maybe 1 in 20 I report. Many of them are obviously fake or hacked accounts, e.g. having "Nail Salon" as the business type on their profile, but their posts are promising $$$ if you have an account on Binance.

theshrike79 3y ago

I wonder when banks start offering delayed payment options, similar to vaults having timed locks. You can transfer that 100k to the Very Reliable Businessman, but it'll require you to accept the transfer now and confirm it 2-3 business days later before it activates. I'd really want one of those on my accounts when I get older, preferably with a limit closer to 1k.

Muromec 3y ago
Just give your second factor to your children once you get older, they will also be more aware of scams
mrguyorama 3y ago
The problem is, the people being scammed are convinced what they are doing is necessary. When our system prevents a grandma from buying $500 of iTunes gift cards at Target because it is clearly a scam, they will call our customer support help line and beg us to help them "get their niece out of jail" or whatever bullshit has been fed to them. We literally have to fight them to help them not be scammed. By the time you are sending someone money, you "trust" them.

robrenaud 3y ago

Is there a sustainable business for a company that monetizes defenses against pig butchering? If you could make a honey pot LLM that engages the scammers, costing them time and learning their patterns, even misleading the scammers and figuring out their crypto wallets, could that be a profitable endeavor?

lazyeye 3y ago

Cambodian slave labor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-17/crypto-text-message-scams-lead-back-to-cambodia-slave-labor https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-08-17/crypto...

harkinian 3y ago

Doesn't help how even a legitimate investing platform often won't let you withdraw money immediately.

not2b 3y ago

John Oliver did an excellent explainer about how pig butchering works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg (apologies if the YouTube link has geographic restrictions, don't know if it does)

circa 3y ago
Came to post this too. It was a great piece on it. I'm glad more people are becoming aware of them. They're starting to get out of control.
- not2b 3y ago
  One thing I didn't understand before his piece was how often the person who is trying to defraud you is being coerced to do it, sometimes in slavery-like conditions.

projektfu 3y ago

I had one of these working on me for a while, years ago. It took me a while to catch on but then I also am not quick to send money to someone. The scammer reached out from a public forum (language learning app) and then traded WhatsApp numbers. At first I thought it was just an eccentric person, but then I realized their goal was to get me to "invest" with their "rich uncle". At this point I hadn't heard about this specific scam, as most scams are kind of low effort and quick to screen people for susceptibility. This one surprised me in that they were very good at acting like someone they claimed to be. Google Translate has gotten to the point where people can carry on a conversation in their own language and talk to someone in English without sounding too odd. Before I blocked the scammer I took a closer look at "her" WhatsApp profile. She was a business account. Big red flag, I wish I had noticed that before. Still, if no money changes hands it's free entertainment? I also learned by paper trading on Forex that I suck at it and shouldn't play that game. Crypto scammers also sometimes try to play the long game, and I think they are based in different countries from the pig butchers. I met one through the same platform and saw through it right away, but noticed that they were working as a pitchman for another scammer.

ametrau 3y ago

There’s something missing from all these discussions. The country where the caller is located.

thefourthchime 3y ago

PJ Vagt (from Reply All) has a FANTASTIC episode about this. Give it a listen, it's one of the most interesting podcasts I've heard since the golden days of Reply All. https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-...

FireInsight 3y ago
Reply All is still my comfort podcast for short walks. Nothing has yet reclaimed the throne of being my most listened from it. Search Engine carries the torch somewhat, and is really good for it's scope, wjch obviously differs from the scope of Reply All.

sarahwoodssarah 3y ago

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bella014 3y ago

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