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I’m very curious how you have this position yet have a MacBook. Why not support a better company like framework?

xvector 3y ago
Because MacBooks are just better. (Have owned both.) I have owned, and continue to own, all sorts of laptops and phones. I could rant about Apple all day long online, but in the end their product is simply superior.
- philistine 3y ago
  Within the corporate monopolist called Apple, that is to say within the minds of all its collective employees, lies an old idea still warm and vibrant after decades of waning indifference. This idea is called Apple Computer, and it makes the best gosh-darn computers in the world: the Mac. It is such a powerful and self-evident idea that those computers are still above and beyond the best ones in the world, even with all those years of indifference.
  - xvector 3y ago
    It's obviously an opinion. I have plenty of computers running Windows and a variety of Linux distros at my home. Laptops, desktop, servers, and weird hybrids of the former. Same with mobile - I have tried Android, iOS, PureOS, GrapheneOS. Apple's UX is so far ahead for me. It's just better. But, you obviously disagree. No need to be disparaging.
    - rezonant 3y ago
      Consider stating opinions as opinions, and not as facts.
  - radley 3y ago
    Heh, Apple Computer also made the iPhone. Everything since launch has been incremental change, not innovative. Except Airpods. They're pretty sweet.
    - crossroadsguy 3y ago
      Until battery life starts deteriorating any that happens real soon and you can’t even know when it started and where it is currently unlike that of, say, an iPhone. Then it’s unusable — hurrah, buy a new pair. The Apple way! :)
      - yurishimo 3y ago
        This is not unique to Apple. All headphones with tiny batteries in the drivers take the piss after a few years aging. That said, my MacBooks have the best laptop batteries of any computer I’ve owned. My wife went through multiple laptops in the time I kept one in college. Turns out some electronics just suck!
      - evilduck 3y ago
        I have a pair of Pixel Buds, how do I see their current battery capacity and cycle counts?
      - oarsinsync 3y ago
        Are there any wireless earbuds (same / similar form factor as the AirPods) that this doesn’t also ring true for?
    - lenkite 3y ago
      > Except Airpods. They're pretty sweet. Sweet devices that keep falling off your ears. You need AirPod ear hooks to keep them on.
      - averageRoyalty 3y ago
        It sounds like you do, most people don't.
        lenkite 3y ago
        The people who do are a significant minority just around ~30-40%. Wouldn't be a tremendous market for ear hooks otherwise. There are thousands sold every day on some retail sites and sometimes thousands every hour if discounted. Out of the 2 dozen folks I know who have bought airpods, 8 have also bought ear hooks. That's ~33%. Anecdotal, but you can look at sell figures and the vast variety of airpod earhooks products if you don't believe me - and look at the 10k-100k product ratings.
- rezonant 3y ago
  And yet if your statement were true, it would not explain why others who also own "both" disagree with you. Absolutism does not serve you, there are few subjects in this world that lack nuance.
  - xvector 3y ago
    My statement is very clearly an opinion.
    - ranguna 3y ago
      > Because MacBooks are just better I'm not sure how that implicitly conveys an opinion. Saying "the sky is blue" is not an opinion when the sky is blue, it's a fact. Saying something is better is also not an opinion, it's a fact. Saying "in my opinion" or "I believe/think/feel like/etc" makes your statement an opinion, ommiting that is ambiguous and is left for interpretation.
DanHulton 3y ago
"You hate capitalism so much, _and yet you live under capitalism!_ How very hypocritical of you..." Don't get me wrong, Framework makes a lot of neat stuff, but you can't swap out a Macbook to _anything_ without consequences. It does not take a lot of imagination and empathy to see that for some people, those consequences aren't acceptable at all, or not simply not worth the utterly undetectable sting that a company such as Apple would feel by us not buying a single Macbook from them. If someone has to alter their entire work environment and process, while Apple doesn't even notice, is that truly worth the moral superiority they'll feel? For a whole lot of people, that answer is "no", and I can't blame them. And yet we live under capitalism...
- gxs 3y ago
  What a false equivalency. No, you can’t avoid capitalism, you’re born in the country your born and you don’t have that choice. This is more like moving to a capitalist country and then complaining that you live in a capitalist country.
  - rezonant 3y ago
    The tech companies have boiled their frogs slowly and deliberately. Apple didn't start out the way it is today after all.
    - docmars 3y ago
      Good point -- With great power comes great inevitable irresponsibility and abuses. The human condition never fails to pollute and corrupt anything as untouchable as Apple. Too big to fail, by definition!
crossroadsguy 3y ago
Did you entertain the possibility that Framework might not be available at OP’s place. Because that’s very much likely to be the case, just like it’s not available to a lot of us :)
Nevermark 3y ago
I see this question a lot. People complain about the products that are best for them. Nobody (with the power to decide what they use) complains about a product long, unless it is still their best choice. And suppliers of products being complained about are not companies "not worth supporting". They are making the product that is the best fit for the complaining customer! They are not perfect. They can do better. So customers speak up.
- chii 3y ago
  and they're not "supporting" a company by merely buying their product. They are deciding that said product is the best fit for price on their individual criteria. To "support" would require you to make sacrifices - aka, buy an inferior/worse-fit product from a company you want to support, instead of from the company that actually offers the best-fit for yourself.
  - docmars 3y ago
    When I bought my MacBook Pro M1 Pro (ugh, stupid names, c'mon Apple!), it was probably the most confident I felt about a technology purchase in years, at least since Apple finally ditched the ridiculous touch bar and gave us back the Escape key and function row. Aside from me throwing too much at it (should've sprung for 32GB), it's the single best notebook I've ever owned, and the most reliable. To say it was the best fit for me is an understatement! It's truly great!
- fennecbutt 3y ago
  Yeah that seems to be a common theme with Apple peeps, being fine with "Well if you don't like what Apple gives you, go somewhere else!" But like...if someone really does like the product but knows that product could be even better, wouldn't they naturally speak up about it?
  - docmars 3y ago
    Your last point is exactly where I'm coming from here. People complaining about a product is usually a sign of its wide, and possibly avid, use. After trying UI design tools and web development on Windows and Linux machines and finding the experience very sub-par for my needs, I've found macOS, and by extension, Apple's hardware quality, choice of keyboard layout, ease of use, etc. to be superior for my needs. I have almost no complaints about the Mac platform with the ways I've been able to customize it, and its nag-free experience. As they say, it just works™. ;) It feels made for UI design & development, with minimal to no configuration, no late nights fixing file permissions or access issues, fixing Linux subsystems, fiddling with very limited terminals, and suffering from buggy piecemeal UI shell packages that prioritize fancy, laggy animations over functionality. On the contrary, I've found not only doing these tasks and multitasking to be very frustrating when getting serious work done on other machines, primarily frequent interruptions (Windows) and major inconsistencies with global keyboard shortcuts. For what it's worth, I'm also a staunch Android user, never owned an iPhone, occasionally use an iPad for reading and other content creation, absolutely love my Windows PC for gaming and surfing on my TV, and work exclusively on my MacBook. I'm very particular about using the most suitable machines for the tasks at hand, but well-rounded enough not to be completely captured by Apple.
smoldesu 3y ago
Potentially because Macbooks represent a more sustainable model for software distribution and don't prevent people from downloading apps directly from websites.
- docmars 3y ago
  Precisely! That's the key difference between iOS and macOS devices, essentially. I've never owned an iPhone primarily because its environment is so constrained, and the possibility of losing access to important apps due to failure of approval or other frivolous issues Apple hysterically deems unfit for publishing, is a huge single point of failure not worth risking. In reality, it's safer to assume that most or all major apps don't have problems with this, so I'm being a little facetious here. Regardless, after nearly 20 years on Android, nobody could possibly pry my muscle memory and features I've come to expect from my cold dead hands. :D
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    ‘Nearly 20 years’ got me. I thought ‘no way, the very first iPhone was released a little bit more than 10 years ago and Android was released a year after’. Then I realised we’re closer to 20 years than we’re to 10 years. It was almost 17 years ago, the very first iPhone!
    - docmars 3y ago
      Daunting to think about, right??
gxs 3y ago
Because people are incredibly entitled and want to have their cake and eat it too. So you bought an iPhone knowing you can’t download apps and then go cry because you can’t download apps? Then your argument is that well, all my friends have iPhones or there are some other good features, or whatever else you make up? So you obviously find value in the product, it’s missing a feature, but you will consciously buy it anyway, it doesn’t make any sense. Does the standard simply change when a company is big enough? Imagine ordering a steak salad even though the restaurant doesn’t allow modifications to the ingredients, then throwing a temper tantrum when you get it because it has steak. It’s unbelievable.
- post_break 3y ago
  Imagine there are only two restaurants in the world and they both only serve steak, yet when you want a salad people say go to the other restaurant.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    This is a great metaphor because if we accept it then the salad is the web, yet no one wants that.
    - docmars 3y ago
      I think there is a great desire for web-like application distribution to work well on smartphones, but with none of the drawbacks like poor rendering performance and lack of native features. Of course, native apps that wrap web-based apps is almost the reverse of that, and we still often get laggy, sub-par experiences as a result of broader platform support for lower maintenance costs. PWAs fill the opposite gap where you get native-like apps at the expense of low performance, distributed any way you like. What we really need is for high-performance native applications to be distributable via the open web, and that's exactly what the EU is enforcing here, in a way. What would be better is for WebAssembly to take off and offer native performance in apps that can be visited at URLs, just like we're used to.
  - gxs 3y ago
fennecbutt 3y ago
Because Apple is a company that does actually make great hardware, just marred by their idiot suit and tie MBA best schools social ties 1% tax dodging executive team that wants to foster the cultish attitude of their consumers and... well they succeeded in a way.
docmars 3y ago
To answer directly, I actually really love the Framework conceptually. What they're doing is immensely important for notebooks, and I'd love to see Apple follow suit one day (but I doubt that'll ever happen). I just can't stand Linux. I've tried several distros and after using macOS since 2009 and Windows since 1995, I just can't be bothered by all the things Linux distros lack, if muscle memory for the other two aren't already the biggest obstacle for me. I am insanely efficient on macOS, and I almost never have to think about global hotkeys, global search & calculations, managing apps & settings, and seeing nearly zero interruptions while I work -- including popups, notifications, performance dips (if I'm being reasonable with my usage), OS UI bugs, etc. These all do occasionally happen, but never to the extent I see in popular Linux distros and even Windows. It's just a fact, after nearly 30 years of first-hand usage and comparison. I also use macOS because it is as extensible and open as I need it to be for downloading and installing packages, and customizing the OS to suit my needs -- which is something iPhones can't do without jailbreaking and such. I've never owned an iPhone, and seldom use my iPad. I'm an Android guy, and being able to sideload apps in rare, but important, moments is important to me. The openness of Android has been important as well, namely the fact that Firefox has always been allowed to use its own browser engine since the start, enabling the same freedoms I have using it on desktop platforms, as a primary example.
- ranguna 3y ago
  Valid points. Out of curiosity, which distros have you tried?
  - docmars 3y ago
    PopOS most recently, and I ran into significant UI lag, jank, bugs all over the place with the correct NVidia drivers installed and everything. I tried it on two machines, and had pretty much the same experience. After troubleshooting and seeking resources/answers, I eventually gave up and told myself, "maybe in another 5-10 years", as we all say. That was a few years ago. Anything older I've forgotten honestly at this point. It's been a long time, and I'm certain things are probably better these days, but I have absolutely no reason to switch. My muscle memory and setups on my current machines are too good to let go of. I have a Steam Deck -- but their experience is so tailored that I'm not sure it counts. I'm not actively using the desktop environment unless I need to use a different game platform. I wouldn't be using this machine for work at all though.

Because MacBooks are just better. (Have owned both.) I have owned, and continue to own, all sorts of laptops and phones. I could rant about Apple all day long online, but in the end their product is simply superior.

philistine 3y ago
Within the corporate monopolist called Apple, that is to say within the minds of all its collective employees, lies an old idea still warm and vibrant after decades of waning indifference. This idea is called Apple Computer, and it makes the best gosh-darn computers in the world: the Mac. It is such a powerful and self-evident idea that those computers are still above and beyond the best ones in the world, even with all those years of indifference.
- xvector 3y ago
  It's obviously an opinion. I have plenty of computers running Windows and a variety of Linux distros at my home. Laptops, desktop, servers, and weird hybrids of the former. Same with mobile - I have tried Android, iOS, PureOS, GrapheneOS. Apple's UX is so far ahead for me. It's just better. But, you obviously disagree. No need to be disparaging.
  - rezonant 3y ago
    Consider stating opinions as opinions, and not as facts.
- radley 3y ago
  Heh, Apple Computer also made the iPhone. Everything since launch has been incremental change, not innovative. Except Airpods. They're pretty sweet.
  - crossroadsguy 3y ago
    Until battery life starts deteriorating any that happens real soon and you can’t even know when it started and where it is currently unlike that of, say, an iPhone. Then it’s unusable — hurrah, buy a new pair. The Apple way! :)
    - yurishimo 3y ago
      This is not unique to Apple. All headphones with tiny batteries in the drivers take the piss after a few years aging. That said, my MacBooks have the best laptop batteries of any computer I’ve owned. My wife went through multiple laptops in the time I kept one in college. Turns out some electronics just suck!
    - evilduck 3y ago
      I have a pair of Pixel Buds, how do I see their current battery capacity and cycle counts?
    - oarsinsync 3y ago
      Are there any wireless earbuds (same / similar form factor as the AirPods) that this doesn’t also ring true for?
  - lenkite 3y ago
    > Except Airpods. They're pretty sweet. Sweet devices that keep falling off your ears. You need AirPod ear hooks to keep them on.
    - averageRoyalty 3y ago
      It sounds like you do, most people don't.
      - lenkite 3y ago
        The people who do are a significant minority just around ~30-40%. Wouldn't be a tremendous market for ear hooks otherwise. There are thousands sold every day on some retail sites and sometimes thousands every hour if discounted. Out of the 2 dozen folks I know who have bought airpods, 8 have also bought ear hooks. That's ~33%. Anecdotal, but you can look at sell figures and the vast variety of airpod earhooks products if you don't believe me - and look at the 10k-100k product ratings.
rezonant 3y ago
And yet if your statement were true, it would not explain why others who also own "both" disagree with you. Absolutism does not serve you, there are few subjects in this world that lack nuance.
- xvector 3y ago
  My statement is very clearly an opinion.
  - ranguna 3y ago
    > Because MacBooks are just better I'm not sure how that implicitly conveys an opinion. Saying "the sky is blue" is not an opinion when the sky is blue, it's a fact. Saying something is better is also not an opinion, it's a fact. Saying "in my opinion" or "I believe/think/feel like/etc" makes your statement an opinion, ommiting that is ambiguous and is left for interpretation.

DanHulton 3y ago

"You hate capitalism so much, _and yet you live under capitalism!_ How very hypocritical of you..." Don't get me wrong, Framework makes a lot of neat stuff, but you can't swap out a Macbook to _anything_ without consequences. It does not take a lot of imagination and empathy to see that for some people, those consequences aren't acceptable at all, or not simply not worth the utterly undetectable sting that a company such as Apple would feel by us not buying a single Macbook from them. If someone has to alter their entire work environment and process, while Apple doesn't even notice, is that truly worth the moral superiority they'll feel? For a whole lot of people, that answer is "no", and I can't blame them. And yet we live under capitalism...

gxs 3y ago
What a false equivalency. No, you can’t avoid capitalism, you’re born in the country your born and you don’t have that choice. This is more like moving to a capitalist country and then complaining that you live in a capitalist country.
- rezonant 3y ago
  The tech companies have boiled their frogs slowly and deliberately. Apple didn't start out the way it is today after all.
  - docmars 3y ago
    Good point -- With great power comes great inevitable irresponsibility and abuses. The human condition never fails to pollute and corrupt anything as untouchable as Apple. Too big to fail, by definition!

crossroadsguy 3y ago

Did you entertain the possibility that Framework might not be available at OP’s place. Because that’s very much likely to be the case, just like it’s not available to a lot of us :)

Nevermark 3y ago

I see this question a lot. People complain about the products that are best for them. Nobody (with the power to decide what they use) complains about a product long, unless it is still their best choice. And suppliers of products being complained about are not companies "not worth supporting". They are making the product that is the best fit for the complaining customer! They are not perfect. They can do better. So customers speak up.

chii 3y ago
and they're not "supporting" a company by merely buying their product. They are deciding that said product is the best fit for price on their individual criteria. To "support" would require you to make sacrifices - aka, buy an inferior/worse-fit product from a company you want to support, instead of from the company that actually offers the best-fit for yourself.
- docmars 3y ago
  When I bought my MacBook Pro M1 Pro (ugh, stupid names, c'mon Apple!), it was probably the most confident I felt about a technology purchase in years, at least since Apple finally ditched the ridiculous touch bar and gave us back the Escape key and function row. Aside from me throwing too much at it (should've sprung for 32GB), it's the single best notebook I've ever owned, and the most reliable. To say it was the best fit for me is an understatement! It's truly great!
fennecbutt 3y ago
Yeah that seems to be a common theme with Apple peeps, being fine with "Well if you don't like what Apple gives you, go somewhere else!" But like...if someone really does like the product but knows that product could be even better, wouldn't they naturally speak up about it?
- docmars 3y ago
  Your last point is exactly where I'm coming from here. People complaining about a product is usually a sign of its wide, and possibly avid, use. After trying UI design tools and web development on Windows and Linux machines and finding the experience very sub-par for my needs, I've found macOS, and by extension, Apple's hardware quality, choice of keyboard layout, ease of use, etc. to be superior for my needs. I have almost no complaints about the Mac platform with the ways I've been able to customize it, and its nag-free experience. As they say, it just works™. ;) It feels made for UI design & development, with minimal to no configuration, no late nights fixing file permissions or access issues, fixing Linux subsystems, fiddling with very limited terminals, and suffering from buggy piecemeal UI shell packages that prioritize fancy, laggy animations over functionality. On the contrary, I've found not only doing these tasks and multitasking to be very frustrating when getting serious work done on other machines, primarily frequent interruptions (Windows) and major inconsistencies with global keyboard shortcuts. For what it's worth, I'm also a staunch Android user, never owned an iPhone, occasionally use an iPad for reading and other content creation, absolutely love my Windows PC for gaming and surfing on my TV, and work exclusively on my MacBook. I'm very particular about using the most suitable machines for the tasks at hand, but well-rounded enough not to be completely captured by Apple.

smoldesu 3y ago

Potentially because Macbooks represent a more sustainable model for software distribution and don't prevent people from downloading apps directly from websites.

docmars 3y ago
Precisely! That's the key difference between iOS and macOS devices, essentially. I've never owned an iPhone primarily because its environment is so constrained, and the possibility of losing access to important apps due to failure of approval or other frivolous issues Apple hysterically deems unfit for publishing, is a huge single point of failure not worth risking. In reality, it's safer to assume that most or all major apps don't have problems with this, so I'm being a little facetious here. Regardless, after nearly 20 years on Android, nobody could possibly pry my muscle memory and features I've come to expect from my cold dead hands. :D
- walteweiss 3y ago
  ‘Nearly 20 years’ got me. I thought ‘no way, the very first iPhone was released a little bit more than 10 years ago and Android was released a year after’. Then I realised we’re closer to 20 years than we’re to 10 years. It was almost 17 years ago, the very first iPhone!
  - docmars 3y ago
    Daunting to think about, right??

gxs 3y ago

Because people are incredibly entitled and want to have their cake and eat it too. So you bought an iPhone knowing you can’t download apps and then go cry because you can’t download apps? Then your argument is that well, all my friends have iPhones or there are some other good features, or whatever else you make up? So you obviously find value in the product, it’s missing a feature, but you will consciously buy it anyway, it doesn’t make any sense. Does the standard simply change when a company is big enough? Imagine ordering a steak salad even though the restaurant doesn’t allow modifications to the ingredients, then throwing a temper tantrum when you get it because it has steak. It’s unbelievable.

post_break 3y ago
Imagine there are only two restaurants in the world and they both only serve steak, yet when you want a salad people say go to the other restaurant.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  This is a great metaphor because if we accept it then the salad is the web, yet no one wants that.
  - docmars 3y ago
    I think there is a great desire for web-like application distribution to work well on smartphones, but with none of the drawbacks like poor rendering performance and lack of native features. Of course, native apps that wrap web-based apps is almost the reverse of that, and we still often get laggy, sub-par experiences as a result of broader platform support for lower maintenance costs. PWAs fill the opposite gap where you get native-like apps at the expense of low performance, distributed any way you like. What we really need is for high-performance native applications to be distributable via the open web, and that's exactly what the EU is enforcing here, in a way. What would be better is for WebAssembly to take off and offer native performance in apps that can be visited at URLs, just like we're used to.
- gxs 3y ago

fennecbutt 3y ago

Because Apple is a company that does actually make great hardware, just marred by their idiot suit and tie MBA best schools social ties 1% tax dodging executive team that wants to foster the cultish attitude of their consumers and... well they succeeded in a way.

docmars 3y ago

To answer directly, I actually really love the Framework conceptually. What they're doing is immensely important for notebooks, and I'd love to see Apple follow suit one day (but I doubt that'll ever happen). I just can't stand Linux. I've tried several distros and after using macOS since 2009 and Windows since 1995, I just can't be bothered by all the things Linux distros lack, if muscle memory for the other two aren't already the biggest obstacle for me. I am insanely efficient on macOS, and I almost never have to think about global hotkeys, global search & calculations, managing apps & settings, and seeing nearly zero interruptions while I work -- including popups, notifications, performance dips (if I'm being reasonable with my usage), OS UI bugs, etc. These all do occasionally happen, but never to the extent I see in popular Linux distros and even Windows. It's just a fact, after nearly 30 years of first-hand usage and comparison. I also use macOS because it is as extensible and open as I need it to be for downloading and installing packages, and customizing the OS to suit my needs -- which is something iPhones can't do without jailbreaking and such. I've never owned an iPhone, and seldom use my iPad. I'm an Android guy, and being able to sideload apps in rare, but important, moments is important to me. The openness of Android has been important as well, namely the fact that Firefox has always been allowed to use its own browser engine since the start, enabling the same freedoms I have using it on desktop platforms, as a primary example.

ranguna 3y ago
Valid points. Out of curiosity, which distros have you tried?
- docmars 3y ago
  PopOS most recently, and I ran into significant UI lag, jank, bugs all over the place with the correct NVidia drivers installed and everything. I tried it on two machines, and had pretty much the same experience. After troubleshooting and seeking resources/answers, I eventually gave up and told myself, "maybe in another 5-10 years", as we all say. That was a few years ago. Anything older I've forgotten honestly at this point. It's been a long time, and I'm certain things are probably better these days, but I have absolutely no reason to switch. My muscle memory and setups on my current machines are too good to let go of. I have a Steam Deck -- but their experience is so tailored that I'm not sure it counts. I'm not actively using the desktop environment unless I need to use a different game platform. I wouldn't be using this machine for work at all though.