19 ms·

The NYPD sent a warrantless subpoena for a copwatcher's Twitter account

509 points by praisewhitey 3y ago

nfriedly 3y ago
> The notification included a copy of the subpoena, which warned X not to tell Clancy of its existence. "You are not to disclose or notify any customer or third party of the existence of this subpoena or that records were provided pursuant to this subpoena," the document read. > But X, following its own corporate policy, told Clancy anyway, and suggested he might want to get some legal representation to fight the subpoena, recommending the American Civil Liberties Union. That's actually the first decent thing I've heard about x since the rename. Good job! (I assume there won't be any penalties for this action given that it was warrantless in the first place.)
- kevingadd 3y ago
  I can imagine some companies being afraid of pissing off the NYPD. If you have a presence in new york, a police department has lots of tools at their disposal to make your life miserable even if you haven't violated the law
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  It only works if all of the platforms you use do this. > As my lawyer put it: “Sounds like you could have a first amendment right to quash the subpoena”. Cool, let’s go. > Surprisingly, it worked! I think it cost around $7,000 but the subpoena was quashed > [While] Google was nice enough to let me know there was a subpoena for my account data but guess what? Nobody else even bothered to tell me. And by nobody else I mean: Paypal, eBay, 3 domain registrars, merch makers, VPN providers, and every other online service I had used with that email in the last five years. They had all been subpoenaed and happily handed it over without even letting me know and it works that way even to this day. https://anons.ca/p/i-used-to-operate-a-dss-hacking-network/ https://anons.ca/p/i-used-to-operate-a-dss-hacking-network/
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > It only works if all of the platforms you use do this Why? It obviously works better if more people do this. But the single notice is still working to some degree.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Depends on your threat model & consequences. Avoiding doxxing means you need more bulletproofing. For OP, Twitter might have been the holy grail and they’re now cool, but maybe not if there’s $x others that have already rolled over.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Twitter might have been the holy grail and they’re now cool, but maybe not if there’s $x others that have already rolled over. This is totally different from "it only works if all of the platforms you use do this." That's a collective action problem. One which does not present itself in this case, where marginal actions produce marginal benefits. What you're now saying is the marginal actions (and thus benefits) may be bounded. Which, sure. But that also doesn't change if all the platforms "do this," but boundedly.
  - caseysoftware 3y ago
    No, it doesn't take coordinated effort. If one company stands up and says "no" and then discloses to the subject, it both raises the risk of exposure on other government entities considering the same and increases the likelihood of another company opposing it next time. Both are wins to build upon.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mc32 3y ago
  I’m very happy to hear X did the right thing by its users and by the law. One can only hope we have more Orgs like and Qwest (the latter one was taken down but the d gov in retribution). Congress needs to let the patriot act lapse. We’re not in an emergency anymore, despite the rhetoric -it’s been over 20 years!
  - Kamq 3y ago
    Dude, the patriot act expired back in March of 2020. Trump threatened to veto it and everyone kinda just shrugged and let it expire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#Reauthorizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#Reauthorizations (scroll to the bottom of the section)
    - mc32 3y ago
      It's great Trump let it lapse, but there are lots of provisions still in place, such as being able to label political protestors as domestic terrorists --any of the pro or anti Hamas/Israel protesters can be labeled as such if they want to. Spying on Americans is till permissible. DHS is still in effect. Lots of added bureaucracy from that time is still there. Do we need all this overhead? The bureaucracy just keeps on growing. Now, that's not to say some things are not necessary. We need to surveil foreign terrorists and also kerb money laundering, etc. but it should all be above board using legitimate warrants and not secret subpoenas.
      - Kamq 3y ago
        Sure, but you specifically called out the patriot act, which hasn't been a thing for 4 years.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I agree. I assume that twitter doesn't do that for every subpoena they get. For some situations notifying a user that they are under investigation by police would be disastrous. That means they're likely carefully evaluating the legal requests they get instead of leaving the process largely automated or rubber stamping everything that comes though. The willingness to accept possible repercussions by informing users in some cases is really admirable.
pfdietz 3y ago
If he wanted, he could continue to press this in court, even after its was withdrawn. There is precedent in at least some jurisdictions for this: otherwise, bad actors could keep avoiding judicial scrutiny just like the NYPD is doing here.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Lawyers don't do this though because the best thing to do for their client is get the NYPD to withdraw, not fight a lengthy and expensive legal battle over the NYPD's subpoena power. The NYPD would legally fight to retain this power to the bitter end.
  - bena 3y ago
    Not to mention lawyers have to work with the police fairly regularly. They see fostering an adversarial relationship as bad for them. So while the police may have broken the law, caused damages, etc, and whatever, other police aren't going to pursue it and neither will most district attorneys.
    - acdha 3y ago
      There’s also a significant personal risk. The NYPD has been very casual about abusing their powers before and anyone fighting it that hard might find it necessary to leave the city if they didn’t want 100% enforcement targeting them personally. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/nyregion/whistle-blower-police-officer-had-backup-secret-recordings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/nyregion/whistle-blower-p...
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > NYPD has been very casual about abusing their powers before and anyone fighting it that hard might find it necessary to leave the city That was a cop collecting evidence on fellow cops. It's obviously criminal. But the NYPD is sued all the time, and I haven't seen evidence of them systematically acting vindictively against either plaintiffs nor their attorneys.
xbar 3y ago
I am baffled by the fact that NYPD can avoid the determination of legality by withdrawing subpoenas. It seems like it would be in X/Meta/Alphabet's interest to get the question in front of a judge in order to require warranted subpoenas.
- hex4def6 3y ago
  If I were to send an illegal demand to someone (like say a threat of blackmail / extortion), can I simply "withdraw" the demand once it reaches court? Absolutely ridiculous.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > can I simply "withdraw" the demand once it reaches court? For the per se dispute, absolutely. That's what you went to court to get. If your demand caused damages, that's a separate controversy that isn't cured by withdrawal.
    - Mathnerd314 3y ago
      Do lawyer fees count as damages?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Judge: How do you plead? Defendant: J/K!!!! lulz!!!!! Judge: case dismissed! <bang> It probably depends on how wealthy the defendant is (if an individual), or the size of the the org defendant represents. If you're a LEO type of org, then I'm honestly shocked the judge didn't just dismiss with prejudice from the off
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      LEO? Lower earth orbit?
throw0101d 3y ago
The NYPD actually has 'international offices': * https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-stationed-overseas-increasing-global-terror-threat/1151214/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-stationed-oversea... * https://archive.is/ZOYiw https://archive.is/ZOYiw / https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-intelligence-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-i...
- eli 3y ago
  NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries It has a more complicated remit than most countries' militaries. (For example, the NYPD functions as the UN's ersatz security force.)
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true. Their budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true Get rid of the UN and the NYPD can be smaller. And it's not just the UN. New York is a second diplomatic capital. So you're also replicating D.C.'s consular security force. This is before we get to it being a financial and cultural centre, to say nothing of the largest city in America and a precedented target of international terrorism. > budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's New York City's economy is double the size of Ukraine's pre-war economy [1][2]. Were it a country, it would sit between Turkey and Indonesia, eclipsing even the economy of Saudi Arabia [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Gross_Domestic_Product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Gross... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine#Main_economic_indicators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine#Main_econom... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)#Table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
none_to_remain 3y ago
Why would a subpoena have a warrant?
- grey413 3y ago
  The fourth amendment requires them for search and seizures.
  - none_to_remain 3y ago
    Can you provide any example of a "warranted subpoena"?
    - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
      All court orders are warrants. That is the most basic definition of a warrant. So a subpoena issued by the court is warranted. A subpoena not issued by a court but accompanied by a separate warrant for the same information constitutes a warranted search or seizure where failure to comply with said search/seizure by the warranted party (ie. law enforcement) could constitute multiple crimes depending on the circumstances.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > fourth amendment requires them for search and seizures The third-party doctrine muddies this under current law.
    - gowld 3y ago
      This is what confuses me. NYPD subpoenaed Twitter. Twitter said "no". I don't understand why Rabbi Copwatch would be involved in fighting the subpoena. Rabbi Copwatch should sue NYPD for infringing his civil rights by spying on him. He has nothing to defend against. Under current law, if he doesn't want NYPD siezing papers and effects about him from Twitter, that is not his papers and effects, he needs to stop giving copies of data about himself to Twitter. I don't like that law, but I think that's where the law sits today.
bananapub 3y ago
it really is funny how much abuse by the government people in the US will tolerate if it's by cops and not the tax office or trying to make the health insurance market slightly less insane. why is that? is it like australia, where everyone is just deep down a narc?
- chasd00 3y ago
  for most people the day to day interaction with police is positive. For example, i know the names of the police that patrol my neighborhood and we wave/chit chat whenever i'm out walking my dogs and they drive by. The only interaction i have with the tax office is a form I have to fill out and a check I have to write. Further, it seems no matter how much money i hand over the quality of social service remains the same. My local public schools are funded in a large part by my property tax, it has skyrocketed but the schools are the same disaster they've always been.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  Lobbying and marketing. Police make money and provide services for profitable corporations. Taxes cost profitable corporations money, except when they're really annoying to deal with, in which case they give money to a small group of corporations. So taxes are designed to be as irritating and painful as possible, and are continually attacked, whereas police are defended.
- vkou 3y ago
  > why is that? Because the same group of people that hate the tax office and a working healthcare system also have a deep pathological fear of the underclasses rising up. And the only thing that will protect them from this is a gang of uniformed thugs. That group also holds ~half the political power in the country.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > a deep pathological fear of the underclasses rising up At least in New York, support for the police diminishes with income. Manhattan is the anti-police borough. The richest neighbourhoods within it elect the most anti-police politicians (with few exceptions).
sitkack 3y ago
> Mallory McGee, an attorney with the NYPD Legal Bureau, using another email attached to the drug task force. This action puts Mallory at risk of getting disbarred. Submitting illegal subpoena's under the color of authority is fraudulent and a disbarrable offense. Multiple people at the NYPD broke the law and should face criminal action.
- 93po 3y ago
  NYPD is famously full of criminals who abuse their position and it seems unlikely to change any time soon
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > NYPD is famously full of criminals There are ways to hold lawyers accountable that sadly don't exist for cops.
    - seanw444 3y ago
      The people that exert force over us to enforce restrictions, often to the extent that it infringes on civil rights (and sometimes to the extent that it ruins the subject's life), qualify for immunity from responsibility for their actions! And their friends refuse to step in when doing so is clearly the moral choice. Hey, wait... this sounds a lot like a gang. How did the rebel nation get so "cucked"?
    - Nifty3929 3y ago
      At this point the only option to hold police accountable is at the ballot box. The voters need to vote for politicians who will change the system. Or not, if we're getting what we want. This is similar to a shareholder action for a public company that is being run poorly (however you define that), but where the board is also complicit. No choice except to vote for new board members. If you want, and care enough, and can get enough others to care enough also.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
wolverine876 3y ago
Unaddressed is why nothing is done, by the target of the subpeona, the NYCLU, the court, the city, or someone else, about this practice and about the apparent investigation into critics. They all seem to treat it as a one-off event, when it doesn't seem to be. I can guess at the difficulties involved, but the question isn't raised and the issues aren't examined.
- praisewhitey 3y ago
  Also unaddressed is what the NYPD intended to do with all that information.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
exogeny 3y ago
I've lived in NYC for almost 15 years. I've never seen a more corrupt and shiftless organization than the NYPD. It's almost comical. I grew up in a small, Midwestern town and was never anti-cop until moving here, and it got immeasurably and irreparably worse during the George Floyd protests. Every single time anything ever got accelerated or instigated, it was by the police and not by a single protestor. Between the kettling, the instigation, and disrespect it became clear that they're a glorified gang that has operates with almost complete impunity and it shocks me that anyone in the city respects them or considers them a friend to the common good. The most common run-in I have with them is standing at a crosswalk or sitting in an Uber and watching them put on the sirens and move everyone out of the way just so they don't have to sit in traffic. I'd estimate seeing this happen, oh, I don't know, about a thousand times while simultaneously I have never once seen them pull anyone over for any kind of traffic or moving violation.
- whiddershins 3y ago
  I’ve lived in NYC much longer than that and the NYPD during the past 15 years has, whenever I’ve observed them, which is many times, been very professional.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    During that time period, NYPD tried to involuntarily commit one of their own police officers to a mental institution when he tried to blow the whistle on some of the corruption, with full knowledge of top brass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
    - sidewndr46 3y ago
      wtf are you talking about? The dude was held against his will for 6 days in a psychiatric facility
      - metabagel 3y ago
        How is that different than the previous comment?
WaitWaitWha 3y ago
I am pleased how X/Twitter responded to this request. X/Twitter notified the person, sent a copy of the the subpoena, suggested legal representation, provided recommendations, and defied the NYPD order of silence.
- jjjjj55555 3y ago
  They also could have done the complete opposite. Imagine your life being in the hands of Twitter.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - fuzztester 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
    I mean technically Twitter could have hired a hit man to come after you too. But they didn't. So I don't get the point
    - AI_beffr 3y ago
      why has nobody responded to this comment? the OP should yield to this comment
    - jjjjj55555 3y ago
      I'm afraid I don't get your point either. Hit man? The police overreached here, and the only thing that protected the victim was, of all things, Twitter. The police are supposed to be the good guys, but that obviously wasn't the case here. My comment was merely expressing surprise at the irony of the situation.
woodruffw 3y ago
The NYPD is well known for taking attempts at oversight personally[1][2], overstepping both regulatory and legal limits in the process. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/08/29/cop-left-creepy-voicemail-for-311-user-after-illegal-parking-complaint-ccrb-finds https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/08/29/cop-left-creepy-voice... [2]: https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-officer-poses-as-311-operator-threatens-man-complaining-about-illegal-parking-at-station https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-officer-poses-as-311-operato...
- l3mure 3y ago
  They hate citizens, they hate internal reformers [1]/[2], they hate their own families [3], and it's true of every single police department in the country. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico [3] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/what-if-your-abusive-husband-is-a-cop https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/what-if-your-a...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 3y ago
"warrantless subpoena" is a nonsense phrase.
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
In many countries, if you're eg. an engineer, and you fuck things up, you can become personally responsible for whatever damages happened due to your negligence. The company has its own responsibilities, but you, as an engineer carry some personal responsibility too. Same for eg. doctors... yes, hospital can get sued, but if you, a doctor, a person, fucked up, you personally can get sued, get into trouble, lose your licence etc. Same for truck drivers... drive too fast, kill someone, drive drunk, play flappy bird while driving... you personally responsible. Pilots, ship captains too. etc. Why the hell are all the public workers exempt from that? Cops, government workers, inspectors, etc.... in the best case possible, taxpayers pay for the damages and that's it. Why?! Someone wanted this subpoeana, his job is to know if s/he can actually request it, s/he signed his/her name on the paper... and then.. nothing?
- spencerflem 3y ago
  if you're asking earnestly, one of the biggest reasons is that the would-be prosecutor relies on the cooperation of the police department to function. This article covers that and some more: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-f...
  - reaperman 3y ago
    In some countries it’s possible for civilian lawyers to press criminal charges specifically for situations like this. There’s some gatekeeping by the courts and whatnot to approve the case but it’s pretty reasonable. Also allows victims to “press charges” when the police mysteriously refuse to. Burden of proof remains the same as for a state-appointed prosecutor. And judges still get similar leeway in sentencing.
    - spencerflem 3y ago
      Oh totally, theres lots of ways it could be improved. Unfortunately, our courts are also in their pocket for various reasons, and invented whole cloth the concept of qualified immunity. So getting the case to the courts is no guarantee either. Still would be better of course. I find it so sad, how much of the country was united on this for months, and how little has actually happened in response.
aftbit 3y ago
What's HIDTA? Is that the "high intensity drug trafficking area"? What does that have to do with cop-watching? Maybe they're trying to plant some cocaine on this guy and get him sent away? Also wtf kind of email is IntelSubpoenas@nynjhidta.org? I guess it probably means "New York New Jersey High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area" but why do they need their own domain? Why not just use an NYPD email? Weird stuff. https://lede-admin.hellgatenyc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2024/03/Twitter_Subpoena.jpg?w=710&quality=75 https://lede-admin.hellgatenyc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/...
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  The drug divisions almost all police departments in all major cities are completely riddled with corruption. They're dealing with the primary monetary fault line of organized crime and gangs. And drug enforcement is their big cover for almost all abuses. We need to decriminalize and end the drug war, if only just to stop the Mexican drug gangs. To take it to a higher geopolitical level... China is likely undergo a demographic collapse soon and possibly one due to totalitarian government paralysis. The geopolitical significance of petroleum is vastly decreasing with EVs American bakken shale oil supply and alternative energy. That means the u.s probably will not be policing the oceans as much to enable free extended trade and logistics lines. So we will be onshoring manufacturer, and likely a great deal of it in Mexico. So we're going to need to solve the Mexican drug problem and our drug war in a constructive manner in the next decade
zugi 3y ago
Did Michael Gerber, the Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, commit the crime of perjury by signing a document asserting he had authority which clearly he did not? It's also odd that the PDF redacted the name of Michael Gerber, the Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, when the NYPD issued a press announcement naming him (https://www.publicnow.com/view/A505A75813F7F2F483905D075F4ADB049B1C9F1F https://www.publicnow.com/view/A505A75813F7F2F483905D075F4AD...) and tout him on their public website (https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/bureaus/administrative/legal.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/bureaus/administrative/legal.p...) It seems that either Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, is clueless about the law, which reflects poorly on his Harvard Law alma matter, or Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, was illegally using threats and coercion and false subpoenas to investigate political opponents and chill free speech. Either way, this does not reflect well on Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, nor the Harvard Law school from which he allegedly graduated.
vaadu 3y ago
The lawyers in the NYPD that signed off on the subpoena should face ethics charges. There seems to be no gray area here on multiple levels. The NYPD knew it wasn't a valid subpoena and they told X not to inform the account holder.
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]
throwaway2037 3y ago
I love the closing quote. > Clancy, for his part, said that he's undaunted, and that the NYPD has no business rummaging through his social media content and metadata. > "Why would you use a shower curtain and close the bathroom door when you take a shower, if you have nothing to hide?" he asked. "Because it's none of your business, that's why. What the police might want to know and what they have a legal right to know are two different things."

509 points by praisewhitey 3y ago

> The notification included a copy of the subpoena, which warned X not to tell Clancy of its existence. "You are not to disclose or notify any customer or third party of the existence of this subpoena or that records were provided pursuant to this subpoena," the document read. > But X, following its own corporate policy, told Clancy anyway, and suggested he might want to get some legal representation to fight the subpoena, recommending the American Civil Liberties Union. That's actually the first decent thing I've heard about x since the rename. Good job! (I assume there won't be any penalties for this action given that it was warrantless in the first place.)

kevingadd 3y ago
I can imagine some companies being afraid of pissing off the NYPD. If you have a presence in new york, a police department has lots of tools at their disposal to make your life miserable even if you haven't violated the law
Scoundreller 3y ago
It only works if all of the platforms you use do this. > As my lawyer put it: “Sounds like you could have a first amendment right to quash the subpoena”. Cool, let’s go. > Surprisingly, it worked! I think it cost around $7,000 but the subpoena was quashed > [While] Google was nice enough to let me know there was a subpoena for my account data but guess what? Nobody else even bothered to tell me. And by nobody else I mean: Paypal, eBay, 3 domain registrars, merch makers, VPN providers, and every other online service I had used with that email in the last five years. They had all been subpoenaed and happily handed it over without even letting me know and it works that way even to this day. https://anons.ca/p/i-used-to-operate-a-dss-hacking-network/ https://anons.ca/p/i-used-to-operate-a-dss-hacking-network/
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > It only works if all of the platforms you use do this Why? It obviously works better if more people do this. But the single notice is still working to some degree.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Depends on your threat model & consequences. Avoiding doxxing means you need more bulletproofing. For OP, Twitter might have been the holy grail and they’re now cool, but maybe not if there’s $x others that have already rolled over.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Twitter might have been the holy grail and they’re now cool, but maybe not if there’s $x others that have already rolled over. This is totally different from "it only works if all of the platforms you use do this." That's a collective action problem. One which does not present itself in this case, where marginal actions produce marginal benefits. What you're now saying is the marginal actions (and thus benefits) may be bounded. Which, sure. But that also doesn't change if all the platforms "do this," but boundedly.
- caseysoftware 3y ago
  No, it doesn't take coordinated effort. If one company stands up and says "no" and then discloses to the subject, it both raises the risk of exposure on other government entities considering the same and increases the likelihood of another company opposing it next time. Both are wins to build upon.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mc32 3y ago
I’m very happy to hear X did the right thing by its users and by the law. One can only hope we have more Orgs like and Qwest (the latter one was taken down but the d gov in retribution). Congress needs to let the patriot act lapse. We’re not in an emergency anymore, despite the rhetoric -it’s been over 20 years!
- Kamq 3y ago
  Dude, the patriot act expired back in March of 2020. Trump threatened to veto it and everyone kinda just shrugged and let it expire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#Reauthorizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act#Reauthorizations (scroll to the bottom of the section)
  - mc32 3y ago
    It's great Trump let it lapse, but there are lots of provisions still in place, such as being able to label political protestors as domestic terrorists --any of the pro or anti Hamas/Israel protesters can be labeled as such if they want to. Spying on Americans is till permissible. DHS is still in effect. Lots of added bureaucracy from that time is still there. Do we need all this overhead? The bureaucracy just keeps on growing. Now, that's not to say some things are not necessary. We need to surveil foreign terrorists and also kerb money laundering, etc. but it should all be above board using legitimate warrants and not secret subpoenas.
    - Kamq 3y ago
      Sure, but you specifically called out the patriot act, which hasn't been a thing for 4 years.
autoexec 3y ago
I agree. I assume that twitter doesn't do that for every subpoena they get. For some situations notifying a user that they are under investigation by police would be disastrous. That means they're likely carefully evaluating the legal requests they get instead of leaving the process largely automated or rubber stamping everything that comes though. The willingness to accept possible repercussions by informing users in some cases is really admirable.

pfdietz 3y ago

If he wanted, he could continue to press this in court, even after its was withdrawn. There is precedent in at least some jurisdictions for this: otherwise, bad actors could keep avoiding judicial scrutiny just like the NYPD is doing here.

busterarm 3y ago
Lawyers don't do this though because the best thing to do for their client is get the NYPD to withdraw, not fight a lengthy and expensive legal battle over the NYPD's subpoena power. The NYPD would legally fight to retain this power to the bitter end.
- bena 3y ago
  Not to mention lawyers have to work with the police fairly regularly. They see fostering an adversarial relationship as bad for them. So while the police may have broken the law, caused damages, etc, and whatever, other police aren't going to pursue it and neither will most district attorneys.
  - acdha 3y ago
    There’s also a significant personal risk. The NYPD has been very casual about abusing their powers before and anyone fighting it that hard might find it necessary to leave the city if they didn’t want 100% enforcement targeting them personally. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/nyregion/whistle-blower-police-officer-had-backup-secret-recordings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/nyregion/whistle-blower-p...
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > NYPD has been very casual about abusing their powers before and anyone fighting it that hard might find it necessary to leave the city That was a cop collecting evidence on fellow cops. It's obviously criminal. But the NYPD is sued all the time, and I haven't seen evidence of them systematically acting vindictively against either plaintiffs nor their attorneys.

xbar 3y ago

I am baffled by the fact that NYPD can avoid the determination of legality by withdrawing subpoenas. It seems like it would be in X/Meta/Alphabet's interest to get the question in front of a judge in order to require warranted subpoenas.

hex4def6 3y ago
If I were to send an illegal demand to someone (like say a threat of blackmail / extortion), can I simply "withdraw" the demand once it reaches court? Absolutely ridiculous.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > can I simply "withdraw" the demand once it reaches court? For the per se dispute, absolutely. That's what you went to court to get. If your demand caused damages, that's a separate controversy that isn't cured by withdrawal.
  - Mathnerd314 3y ago
    Do lawyer fees count as damages?
- dylan604 3y ago
  Judge: How do you plead? Defendant: J/K!!!! lulz!!!!! Judge: case dismissed! <bang> It probably depends on how wealthy the defendant is (if an individual), or the size of the the org defendant represents. If you're a LEO type of org, then I'm honestly shocked the judge didn't just dismiss with prejudice from the off
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    LEO? Lower earth orbit?

throw0101d 3y ago

The NYPD actually has 'international offices': * https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-stationed-overseas-increasing-global-terror-threat/1151214/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-stationed-oversea... * https://archive.is/ZOYiw https://archive.is/ZOYiw / https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-intelligence-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/21/nyregion/terrorism-nypd-i...

eli 3y ago
NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > NYPD has more resources than most countries' militaries It has a more complicated remit than most countries' militaries. (For example, the NYPD functions as the UN's ersatz security force.)
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true. Their budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Get rid of the UN and the statement would likely still be true Get rid of the UN and the NYPD can be smaller. And it's not just the UN. New York is a second diplomatic capital. So you're also replicating D.C.'s consular security force. This is before we get to it being a financial and cultural centre, to say nothing of the largest city in America and a precedented target of international terrorism. > budget is roughly equivalent to 2020 Ukraine's New York City's economy is double the size of Ukraine's pre-war economy [1][2]. Were it a country, it would sit between Turkey and Indonesia, eclipsing even the economy of Saudi Arabia [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Gross_Domestic_Product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Gross... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine#Main_economic_indicators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine#Main_econom... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)#Table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

none_to_remain 3y ago

Why would a subpoena have a warrant?

grey413 3y ago
The fourth amendment requires them for search and seizures.
- none_to_remain 3y ago
  Can you provide any example of a "warranted subpoena"?
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
    All court orders are warrants. That is the most basic definition of a warrant. So a subpoena issued by the court is warranted. A subpoena not issued by a court but accompanied by a separate warrant for the same information constitutes a warranted search or seizure where failure to comply with said search/seizure by the warranted party (ie. law enforcement) could constitute multiple crimes depending on the circumstances.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > fourth amendment requires them for search and seizures The third-party doctrine muddies this under current law.
  - gowld 3y ago
    This is what confuses me. NYPD subpoenaed Twitter. Twitter said "no". I don't understand why Rabbi Copwatch would be involved in fighting the subpoena. Rabbi Copwatch should sue NYPD for infringing his civil rights by spying on him. He has nothing to defend against. Under current law, if he doesn't want NYPD siezing papers and effects about him from Twitter, that is not his papers and effects, he needs to stop giving copies of data about himself to Twitter. I don't like that law, but I think that's where the law sits today.

bananapub 3y ago

it really is funny how much abuse by the government people in the US will tolerate if it's by cops and not the tax office or trying to make the health insurance market slightly less insane. why is that? is it like australia, where everyone is just deep down a narc?

chasd00 3y ago
for most people the day to day interaction with police is positive. For example, i know the names of the police that patrol my neighborhood and we wave/chit chat whenever i'm out walking my dogs and they drive by. The only interaction i have with the tax office is a form I have to fill out and a check I have to write. Further, it seems no matter how much money i hand over the quality of social service remains the same. My local public schools are funded in a large part by my property tax, it has skyrocketed but the schools are the same disaster they've always been.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
Lobbying and marketing. Police make money and provide services for profitable corporations. Taxes cost profitable corporations money, except when they're really annoying to deal with, in which case they give money to a small group of corporations. So taxes are designed to be as irritating and painful as possible, and are continually attacked, whereas police are defended.
vkou 3y ago
> why is that? Because the same group of people that hate the tax office and a working healthcare system also have a deep pathological fear of the underclasses rising up. And the only thing that will protect them from this is a gang of uniformed thugs. That group also holds ~half the political power in the country.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > a deep pathological fear of the underclasses rising up At least in New York, support for the police diminishes with income. Manhattan is the anti-police borough. The richest neighbourhoods within it elect the most anti-police politicians (with few exceptions).

sitkack 3y ago

> Mallory McGee, an attorney with the NYPD Legal Bureau, using another email attached to the drug task force. This action puts Mallory at risk of getting disbarred. Submitting illegal subpoena's under the color of authority is fraudulent and a disbarrable offense. Multiple people at the NYPD broke the law and should face criminal action.

93po 3y ago
NYPD is famously full of criminals who abuse their position and it seems unlikely to change any time soon
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > NYPD is famously full of criminals There are ways to hold lawyers accountable that sadly don't exist for cops.
  - seanw444 3y ago
    The people that exert force over us to enforce restrictions, often to the extent that it infringes on civil rights (and sometimes to the extent that it ruins the subject's life), qualify for immunity from responsibility for their actions! And their friends refuse to step in when doing so is clearly the moral choice. Hey, wait... this sounds a lot like a gang. How did the rebel nation get so "cucked"?
  - Nifty3929 3y ago
    At this point the only option to hold police accountable is at the ballot box. The voters need to vote for politicians who will change the system. Or not, if we're getting what we want. This is similar to a shareholder action for a public company that is being run poorly (however you define that), but where the board is also complicit. No choice except to vote for new board members. If you want, and care enough, and can get enough others to care enough also.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago

wolverine876 3y ago

Unaddressed is why nothing is done, by the target of the subpeona, the NYCLU, the court, the city, or someone else, about this practice and about the apparent investigation into critics. They all seem to treat it as a one-off event, when it doesn't seem to be. I can guess at the difficulties involved, but the question isn't raised and the issues aren't examined.

praisewhitey 3y ago
Also unaddressed is what the NYPD intended to do with all that information.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

exogeny 3y ago

I've lived in NYC for almost 15 years. I've never seen a more corrupt and shiftless organization than the NYPD. It's almost comical. I grew up in a small, Midwestern town and was never anti-cop until moving here, and it got immeasurably and irreparably worse during the George Floyd protests. Every single time anything ever got accelerated or instigated, it was by the police and not by a single protestor. Between the kettling, the instigation, and disrespect it became clear that they're a glorified gang that has operates with almost complete impunity and it shocks me that anyone in the city respects them or considers them a friend to the common good. The most common run-in I have with them is standing at a crosswalk or sitting in an Uber and watching them put on the sirens and move everyone out of the way just so they don't have to sit in traffic. I'd estimate seeing this happen, oh, I don't know, about a thousand times while simultaneously I have never once seen them pull anyone over for any kind of traffic or moving violation.

whiddershins 3y ago
I’ve lived in NYC much longer than that and the NYPD during the past 15 years has, whenever I’ve observed them, which is many times, been very professional.
- int_19h 3y ago
  During that time period, NYPD tried to involuntarily commit one of their own police officers to a mental institution when he tried to blow the whistle on some of the corruption, with full knowledge of top brass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    wtf are you talking about? The dude was held against his will for 6 days in a psychiatric facility
    - metabagel 3y ago
      How is that different than the previous comment?

WaitWaitWha 3y ago

I am pleased how X/Twitter responded to this request. X/Twitter notified the person, sent a copy of the the subpoena, suggested legal representation, provided recommendations, and defied the NYPD order of silence.

jjjjj55555 3y ago
They also could have done the complete opposite. Imagine your life being in the hands of Twitter.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    [flagged]
- fuzztester 3y ago
  [flagged]
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  I mean technically Twitter could have hired a hit man to come after you too. But they didn't. So I don't get the point
  - AI_beffr 3y ago
    why has nobody responded to this comment? the OP should yield to this comment
  - jjjjj55555 3y ago
    I'm afraid I don't get your point either. Hit man? The police overreached here, and the only thing that protected the victim was, of all things, Twitter. The police are supposed to be the good guys, but that obviously wasn't the case here. My comment was merely expressing surprise at the irony of the situation.

woodruffw 3y ago

The NYPD is well known for taking attempts at oversight personally[1][2], overstepping both regulatory and legal limits in the process. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/08/29/cop-left-creepy-voicemail-for-311-user-after-illegal-parking-complaint-ccrb-finds https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/08/29/cop-left-creepy-voice... [2]: https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-officer-poses-as-311-operator-threatens-man-complaining-about-illegal-parking-at-station https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-officer-poses-as-311-operato...

l3mure 3y ago
They hate citizens, they hate internal reformers [1]/[2], they hate their own families [3], and it's true of every single police department in the country. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico [3] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/what-if-your-abusive-husband-is-a-cop https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/what-if-your-a...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jeffbee 3y ago

"warrantless subpoena" is a nonsense phrase.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

In many countries, if you're eg. an engineer, and you fuck things up, you can become personally responsible for whatever damages happened due to your negligence. The company has its own responsibilities, but you, as an engineer carry some personal responsibility too. Same for eg. doctors... yes, hospital can get sued, but if you, a doctor, a person, fucked up, you personally can get sued, get into trouble, lose your licence etc. Same for truck drivers... drive too fast, kill someone, drive drunk, play flappy bird while driving... you personally responsible. Pilots, ship captains too. etc. Why the hell are all the public workers exempt from that? Cops, government workers, inspectors, etc.... in the best case possible, taxpayers pay for the damages and that's it. Why?! Someone wanted this subpoeana, his job is to know if s/he can actually request it, s/he signed his/her name on the paper... and then.. nothing?

spencerflem 3y ago
if you're asking earnestly, one of the biggest reasons is that the would-be prosecutor relies on the cooperation of the police department to function. This article covers that and some more: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-f...
- reaperman 3y ago
  In some countries it’s possible for civilian lawyers to press criminal charges specifically for situations like this. There’s some gatekeeping by the courts and whatnot to approve the case but it’s pretty reasonable. Also allows victims to “press charges” when the police mysteriously refuse to. Burden of proof remains the same as for a state-appointed prosecutor. And judges still get similar leeway in sentencing.
  - spencerflem 3y ago
    Oh totally, theres lots of ways it could be improved. Unfortunately, our courts are also in their pocket for various reasons, and invented whole cloth the concept of qualified immunity. So getting the case to the courts is no guarantee either. Still would be better of course. I find it so sad, how much of the country was united on this for months, and how little has actually happened in response.

aftbit 3y ago

What's HIDTA? Is that the "high intensity drug trafficking area"? What does that have to do with cop-watching? Maybe they're trying to plant some cocaine on this guy and get him sent away? Also wtf kind of email is IntelSubpoenas@nynjhidta.org? I guess it probably means "New York New Jersey High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area" but why do they need their own domain? Why not just use an NYPD email? Weird stuff. https://lede-admin.hellgatenyc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2024/03/Twitter_Subpoena.jpg?w=710&quality=75 https://lede-admin.hellgatenyc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/...

AtlasBarfed 3y ago
The drug divisions almost all police departments in all major cities are completely riddled with corruption. They're dealing with the primary monetary fault line of organized crime and gangs. And drug enforcement is their big cover for almost all abuses. We need to decriminalize and end the drug war, if only just to stop the Mexican drug gangs. To take it to a higher geopolitical level... China is likely undergo a demographic collapse soon and possibly one due to totalitarian government paralysis. The geopolitical significance of petroleum is vastly decreasing with EVs American bakken shale oil supply and alternative energy. That means the u.s probably will not be policing the oceans as much to enable free extended trade and logistics lines. So we will be onshoring manufacturer, and likely a great deal of it in Mexico. So we're going to need to solve the Mexican drug problem and our drug war in a constructive manner in the next decade

zugi 3y ago

Did Michael Gerber, the Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, commit the crime of perjury by signing a document asserting he had authority which clearly he did not? It's also odd that the PDF redacted the name of Michael Gerber, the Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, when the NYPD issued a press announcement naming him (https://www.publicnow.com/view/A505A75813F7F2F483905D075F4ADB049B1C9F1F https://www.publicnow.com/view/A505A75813F7F2F483905D075F4AD...) and tout him on their public website (https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/bureaus/administrative/legal.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/bureaus/administrative/legal.p...) It seems that either Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, is clueless about the law, which reflects poorly on his Harvard Law alma matter, or Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, was illegally using threats and coercion and false subpoenas to investigate political opponents and chill free speech. Either way, this does not reflect well on Michael Gerber, the NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, nor the Harvard Law school from which he allegedly graduated.

vaadu 3y ago

The lawyers in the NYPD that signed off on the subpoena should face ethics charges. There seems to be no gray area here on multiple levels. The NYPD knew it wasn't a valid subpoena and they told X not to inform the account holder.

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

[dead]

throwaway2037 3y ago

I love the closing quote. > Clancy, for his part, said that he's undaunted, and that the NYPD has no business rummaging through his social media content and metadata. > "Why would you use a shower curtain and close the bathroom door when you take a shower, if you have nothing to hide?" he asked. "Because it's none of your business, that's why. What the police might want to know and what they have a legal right to know are two different things."