9 ms·
Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes
- jwsteigerwalt 3y agoUntil airlines cease to need a scapegoat, they will keep pilots in the cockpit.
- sva_ 3y agoI dont really know much of anything about aviation, other than being a passenger, but I feel like taking off and landing is still something that needs a pilot. I've been on some rough landings, and I don't think ML is quite there yet to do it.
- cgeier 3y agoYou don't need ML to do this, there are already auto landing (and auto take off) systems that work very well. The hardest part is taxiing on the airport and taking part in air control procedures doesn't work at all AFAIK.
- Ekaros 3y agoAnd for taxiing hard part is likely not moving the plane, but not getting in a way of anyone else. You really don't want to be at wrong part of runway at wrong time.
- paulmd 3y agoGround movements and runway clearances are still very manual processes unfortunately, and mistakes happen especially in high task-load situations or poor visibility or flight number collisions etc. The safe part about being in the airplane is actually being in the air, lol - once you push back you are at fairly elevated statistical risk until you’ve got some altitude. Takeoff/landing are high risk and there’s a lot of people and a lot of chances for mistakes on the tarmac. There are statistically an enormous number of ground movements carried out safely but boy does the potential body count get big with runway incursion scenarios. Two 757s colliding is a lot of people, and in high-energy scenarios at least one of the aircraft isn’t walking away. You can be doing nothing wrong and someone just landings on your taxiway etc. The close calls are terrifying.
- freitzkriesler2 3y agowhoop whoop Wake Up I know it's an Airbus but I can see this happening in the not so distant future.
- bombcar 3y agoFirst question - how do we tie this to Boeing? (A joke, of course) Second, interesting to note planes don’t have deadman switches.
- HPsquared 3y agoUnlike trains, there isn't one action that is basically always safe (stop the train). A dead man switch activating at the wrong time, could itself cause an accident.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Johnny555 3y agoIt doesn't have to stop the plane, it could just trigger a cockpit alarm.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y agoOr alert air traffic control, and maybe they can send an alert into the cockpit. But there must be a way to raise an alarm. My guess is basically nobody cares that much about this rare condition. It's much more likely the pilots are incapacitated rather than asleep, in which case the alarm is pointless. But I guess it's not that rare: - https://www.newsweek.com/pilots-boeing-737-both-doze-off-overshoot-airport-two-hour-flight-1735435 - https://jalopnik.com/tale-of-both-pilots-sleeping-during-flight-reminds-us-t-1849014190 - https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pilots-sleep-cockpit-airline-safety/index.html - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/both-pilots-fall-asleep-during-british-airbus-flight-incident-report-reveals/ - https://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=A9AAFE58-18F4-40B5-B59A-EBE316BBE878 - https://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1932040,00.html
- sand500 3y agoSome planes can land themselves now: https://discover.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/#autoland https://discover.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/#autoland
- ApolloFortyNine 3y ago>The PIC advised the Jakarta ACC that BTK6723 experienced radio communication problem and currently the problem has been resolved. Did they self report after or was there a review triggered somehow? Their excuse actually was pretty impressive honestly, almost like this has happened before.
- belter 3y ago"'More than half' of pilots have slept while flying" - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544
- nukeyoular 3y ago[flagged]
- ibejoeb 3y agoI don't know much about the cockpit monitoring systems that Airbus has, but I know every cheap toyota in the past 10 years yells at me if I so much as glance at a billboard.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- baron816 3y agoCan someone explain to me why we still need pilots? Could we at least have pilots serve as a backup to a fully autonomous system?
- dkasper 3y agoEdge cases
- smt88 3y agoPilots already serve as a backup to an autonomous system. They're also useful for takeoff and landing.
- defrost 3y agoTakeoffs, landings, and navigating dense air traffic in controlled spaces are all still "not smooth enough" for autonomous sytems if human life is valued. Yes, planes can take off and land on auto pilot - but real world conditions throw curve balls, ditto approaches and departures from high traffic airports. Even "boring" 10 hour point to point legs that might normally be fully autopilot can be a problem in case of mechanical failures or other unexpected events.
- taspeotis 3y agoYou propose replacing pilots with … pilots?
- tomschwiha 3y agoIANAP. I think a lot people enjoy flying airplanes. I think most landings are manual. Thus pilots highly skilled to land safely also in difficult situations. And instruments can fail. What do you hope for with removing humans in the loop?
- samtho 3y agoThis is such an “armchair expert” take on this. Planes are not fully autonomous. They will not be for a very long time due to the regulatory environment aviation is entrenched in.
- 3y ago
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoIt’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.
- aaomidi 3y agoOne of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.
- lambdasquirrel 3y agoI've found the self-steering of new cars to be not at all useful for the stated use case. In my car, the self-steering pushes back a bit and deviates from the course ever so slightly so that you have to keep your hands on the wheel. I'd rather steer it myself. But in those moments where I'm trying to find the UI for adjusting some climate setting, and I don't have my eyes on the road, that's when the self-driving is useful. Maybe technology creates its own problems. To be fair, the radar cruise control is nice for long drives.
- Ekaros 3y agoI think sweet spot is probably somewhere with adaptive cruise control and light lane assist. Too much beyond that and you have to be fully autonomous in all situations.
- lupire 3y agoIt really is comically reversed. Robots are far better than humans at watching for a long time and jumping in to help instantly with an acute problem when needed (like braking or swerving to avoid an obstacle). Humans are better at interpreting a complex scene and making a high level plan.
- nucleardog 3y agoAnd this is basically what most other manufacturers’ driver assists do. My wife’s car has adaptive cruise. It just needs to watch constantly and adjust your speed to ensure the distance between you and the car in front remains relatively constant. It has lane keeping assist and lane departure alerting. It constantly tracks where the lines on the road are and either gently nudges you back in the lane, or beeps at you if you cross a line. It has emergency braking, it’s constantly watching and if it sees you approaching something at a rate or distance that suggests you are likely to hit it, it will alert you. If you continue, it will apply the brakes for you. If you’re stopped for a period of time (like at a light) and the car in front of you pulls away and you don’t after a brief moment, it will ding to get your attention and let you know traffic is moving. Pretty much all of this is making use of the strengths of the computer (uninterrupted attention, quick reaction times) to make up for the weaknesses of the human (distractable, slower reaction times) instead of trying to do the reverse.
- theogravity 3y agoNot familiar with any of this - I'm guessing it's ok for one pilot to be asleep as long as there's another active one?
- potatoman22 3y agoSounds like it: "The PIC then asked permission to rest from the SIC and was granted. A few seconds later, the PIC slept and the SIC then took over the PIC duty as PM."
- thsksbd 3y agoHappens all the time. Both asleep, though, is a big problem. About ten years ago there was a (Delta?) flight to Vegas (?) with both pilots asleep. They flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them.
- tasuki 3y ago> flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them. That... doesn't seem like a great illustration of why both pilots asleep is a big problem :)
- thsksbd 3y agoThey overshot the airport by about 40 minutes, which means they had to fly an extra 30 minutes back. Every minute the flight attendant delays in waking up the pilot is doubled. That's not a huge deal in Vegas, but if you miss Honolulu that's a big problem.
- zabzonk 3y agoi can beat this. my dad was an RAF Vulcan captain and he and his entire crew fell asleep overflying Indonesia going from Australia to UK (they had being delivering to Australia a rocket component in the Vulcan's capacious bomb bay). the flight over Indonesia was completely illegal, but the crew figured that the Indonesian radars could not track the Vulcan (early stealth) and their fighters could not intercept it. anyway, everyone woke up (reason for sleep never identified, afaik - i suspect hangovers) this would be mid-60s.
- hindsightbias 3y agoLate 50’s, Dad’s F-86 didn’t have a real autopilot but you could slave it to the vor-dme. It dinged when you went over it and heading went to/from. And now you know why I’m here.
- kalleboo 3y agoThe Guardian article [0] mentions > One of the pilots had not rested adequately on the night before the flight, according to the report. > “The second-in-command had one-month-old twin babies. His wife took care of the babies and he assisted while at home,” the report said. More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/09/indonesia-opens-inquiry-after-batik-air-pilots-fell-asleep-on-flight-carrying-153-people https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/09/indonesia-open...
- randmeerkat 3y ago> More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave. With negative population growth being such a concern I’m really surprised that there’s not far reaching, comprehensive, pro-family policies being enacted. Society seems stuck in the “productivity” graveyard spiral.
- bfeist 3y agoWhere is negative population growth a concern? I’m concerned about the opposite.
- samtho 3y agoIn many developed nations, this is a valid concern which is even more problematic given that developed nations have the wealth to afford to let people take parental leave. If you are still hearing about population explosions with the same urgency that we heard about 20 years ago, then you’re being fed information meant to vilify the “others”.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bufferoverflow 3y agoSo we need an automatic AI system that will watch pilots and sound an alarm if it detects sleeping.
- pacifika 3y agoWe can adapt that for software engineers to make sure they’re working!
- bufferoverflow 3y agoDoesn't that already exist? My work laptop has all kinds of spyware installed. I assume they are watching all the time.
- dave333 3y agoHave a countdown that has to be actively reset by the pilot before it gets to zero or it makes an audible alarm. Can allow it to be turned off manually for busy times or just make any pilot action reset the counter. Can research the optimal counter length but maybe a couple of minutes.
- freefaler 3y agoLike a train driver facing a similar issue, the cabin is equipped with a lever that must be continuously pressed, otherwise, an alarm will sound. This lever is designed in a manner that prevents it from being pressed if the driver falls asleep, serving as a mechanical safeguard against dozing off.
- rajnathani 3y agoI don't know about in other countries, but commercial pilots in India have random daily schedules - for example, today the flying time could be 1 pm to 8 pm, tomorrow it could be 8 pm to 3 am, then two days later it could be 2 am to 9 am. Given how random the timings are, I'm not surprised about captains falling asleep (maybe not first officers, who are younger (saying this out of hearing an anecdote about this)).