30 ms·

Linus Torvalds won't do github pull requests

535 points by quellhorst 14y ago

rumcajz 14y ago
That's pretty relevant comment. GitHub pull request system is great if you want to attract a bunch of script kiddies to participate on your project. For serious work, not so much.
- nupark2 14y ago
  I would say the same about github's forks-as-top-level-entities system. Forking a project is a huge deal. Forking a git repository is no big deal. Github does the former, and it encourages too-broad forks, and at the same time, discourages coordination and contribution with the original project. Nearly all forks should be short-lived and completely subsidiary to the main project.
  - kscaldef 14y ago
    While many projects / companies work as you say, the linux kernel development model has always been much more like how github does forks. Git was designed to be truly distributed and de-centralized, although many people choose not to use it that way.
  - zoul 14y ago
    That's a lot of opinions and much less arguments (no offense). Would you care to explain the motivations behind the opinions?
    - nupark2 14y ago
      Forks -- as top-level named entities -- draw attention and resources away from the original project, possibly leaving both projects with too-few resources to survive afterwards. This is why "forking" an open-source project was considered a nuclear option prior to the emergence of github. I rarely even get pull requests from people forking my code on github, and when I do, they almost never have bothered to discuss with me prior to implementation. It's a relatively recent phenomena that is largely encouraged by the tools.
- Kiro 14y ago
  Why would pull requests attract script kiddies?
  - rumcajz 14y ago
    Because they are insanely easy to do, at the expense of sane formal process.
lobo_tuerto 14y ago
I hope the github folks get involved in this. I'm specially interested in what they have to say about why they decided to go with what Linus calls _their own totally inferior version_. Love this no-nonsense style, but let me say that it's no only the style, but that Linus has enough on his side to back it up.
- bermanoid 14y ago
  You only love the style because he has enough on his side to back it up. Anyone else that acted like Linus does on a regular basis would be considered childish and arrogant. I'd take Github's version of any feature, any day, over the official git version, any time they differed - Git is a notoriously user-hostile piece of software interface-wise, and pretty much the only thing it has going for it on the usability front is Github.
  - sauravc 14y ago
    I agree with the your first line. It espouses objectivity. But your second line goes in the opposite direction and make me sad.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      Might be cerebral hemispheres taking turns. naarf.
  - josefonseca 14y ago
    > Git is a notoriously user-hostile piece of software Then you probably didn't use any SCCS before git. Because CVS is even uglier, Bitkeeper is the reason Linus wrote git and every other I tried was more "user-hostile" than git. > pretty much the only thing it has going for it on the usability front is Github. You sound like a Visual Basic programmer who just saw C for the first time. Edit: Bitkeeper, not bucket!
    - delroth 14y ago
      Bitkeeper. Bitbucket (and Mercurial) did not exist when Linus started writing Git.
fdr 14y ago
I also do not care for the pull requests, for much the same reasons. I like there is a way to bring a branch to a maintainer's attention and updating its commit range in event of updates before it is accepted, but the way messages that result from merging in the code is irritating, so I end up just using "git pull" to do the trick once the branch looks good to me.
mike626 14y ago
Extremely relevant criticism. It appears to be a rather simple problem for Github to resolve.
happycube 14y ago
Considering Linus created git, if I were running github I'd tend to listen to whatever he had to say about it...
- peterb 14y ago
  How ironic.
- eridius 14y ago
  Devil's advocate: Considering GitHub popularized git, if I were in charge of git I'd listen to what the GitHub guys have to say about it.
  - lnguyen 14y ago
    I'm inclined to believe that they agree to disagree. Linus' use case for a pull request would probably be to much for a popularized and casual use case that is likely typical for GitHub. And anyway it's Linus' prerogative to dictate his requirements for contributing to his project. The description he gives doesn't make it seem overly difficult (use what's already built-in).
  - zbowling 14y ago
    Github wasn't directly what made git big. Linus using git for the linux kernel, the bitkeeper drama, and doing talks about why git is better and everything is broken made git popular. Github has done a lot to push it, but even without github, git would still be huge.
    - trustfundbaby 14y ago
      I'm sorry man, I have to disagree with this ... I watched git take off with the launch of github, and I've seen enough people moved to git because of github to tell you that ... sure git would be successful, but without the mindshare of github in the developer community, it would not be as popular as it is now. at. all. When git was announced, I got it and played around with it for a bit, but I went back to svn, it was only with all the OSS that I cared about working with (rails gems anyone?) or on that I started caring about git in a serious way. I'm only one datapoint though.
memset 14y ago
Can someone point me to the tool that comes with git for pull-request functionality?
- masklinn 14y ago
  Guessing he's talking about the format-patch/am pair, but can't be sure as I'm not him. Either that, or just sending a mail with a link to your own git repo requesting a pull.
- xnxn 14y ago
  $ man git-request-pull
- onedognight 14y ago
  git request-pull If you'd like to see an example, this will generate the text of a request sending the top few commits in your repository (assuming the origin / master convention) git request-pull master^^^^^ $(git config remote.origin.url)
  - xnxn 14y ago
    A tip - you can use master~5 instead of master^^^^^.
    - onedognight 14y ago
      Thanks! I expected someone might save me the time of looking that up.
losethos 14y ago
I did all of LoseThos myself. No GPL code. At one point I had a Linux floppy routine. I got ATA info. Linux is copyrighted, not patented. There are no issues. The state tries to sabatogage legitimate alternatives. The state will lose. You will receive severe judgement from God. ---- God says... C:\Text\HUCKFINN.TXT looky here; you stop that putting on frills. I won't have it. I'll lay for you, my smarty; and if I catch you about that school I'll tan you good. First you know you'll get religion, too. I never see such a son." He took up a little blue and yaller picture of some cows and a boy, and says: "What's this?" "It's something they give me for learning my lessons good." He tore it up, and says: "I'll give you something better--I'll give you a cowhide." He set there a-mumbling and a-growli ---- I wrote a compiler and kernel. Linus just did a kernel. (But a fancy kernel.)
DanWaterworth 14y ago
What, Linus found something he doesn't like?
- bad_user 14y ago
  Don't forget SVN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
alexchamberlain 14y ago
I agree with Linus on a lot of things, but I wonder sometimes if he rubs people up the wrong way occasionally.
- laconian 14y ago
  He makes no bones about it. Git got its name because Linus thinks of himself as a git.
- aiscott 14y ago
  Linus rubs people the wrong way all the time. It's just the way he is wired. He enjoys arguments and hyperbole. Once you understand that, you can choose to accept that and interact with him without undue suffering, or not.
- ionforce 14y ago
  He's totally a jackass and it's completely unnecessary. Being the father of Linux doesn't merit you being king of jerk land.
goatslacker 14y ago
I have to agree with Linus on this and it's nice that he's taking time to write out his thoughts in public. GitHub commit messages can be really ugly. I'm guilty of this and it's not something I'm proud of. I think the small improvement they did a while ago with the display of commit messages is a step in the right direction, I wish they would apply that same style to the web interface when composing commit messages. edit: A good fix would be a way to turn off pull requests for projects or at least redirect users on how to send pull requests.
kstenerud 14y ago
So what exactly is deficient with github's approach to pull requests vs git pull-request?
gte910h 14y ago
Maintainer of a project doesn't like a tool some people like to use. News at 11. Seriously. Just dont' send this particular maintainer pull requests that way.
- astine 14y ago
  This maintainer is a little more notable than most... And his opinion is a little more relevant :)
  - gte910h 14y ago
    That's the thing about science or really any discipline where results is more important than anything else. It's not really. If any other maintainer of a project finds they're cool with pull requests from github, then it's a fine tool for those projects. This guy runs a project which is an outlier in it's size, and which is also a far older project than most of what github hosts. Now if his criticism has useful facts, that MIGHT be useful, and it does: The github format has fewer bits of info. Could some of those bits of info be important? Maybe. I didn't sense a genuine, measured analysis, but instead a rant from a maintainer about something that's not working for his project. Nor did I see a counterpoint from github why their tool does it the way it does. There may be real design decisions there, ones that might be better answers than what Torvalds has, especially for projects far smaller than Torvalds. Don't let Torvald's status as the maintainer of the Linux kernel (and creator of git, to do that task) make you forget he's also paid attention to because he's famous as well as a useful contributor. Fame doesn't make you more right, just more adored. His ideas still require critical analysis from the rest of us.
gte910h 14y ago
Maintainer of a project doesn't like a tool some people like to use. News at 11. Seriously. Just dont' send this particular maintainer pull requests that way.
Porter_423 14y ago
Ouch my feelings are broken... I just wish you would live up to your image, but then again you're just an imperfect human too.
mjs 14y ago
It's instructive to read Linus's commits to his hobby project "subsurface": https://github.com/torvalds/subsurface/commits/master https://github.com/torvalds/subsurface/commits/master Even if I can't code like Linus, I can at least try to write commit messages like his…
- why-el 14y ago
  It always puzzled me why his commits (and in fact standard commits) ought to start with a verb that is not in its past form. When I started using git four months ago (such a newbie), I would write something like "Fixed this" instead of "Fix this". Anybody with more insights on this? I am just curious.
  - purephase 14y ago
    It is part of the git best practices: http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SubmittingPatches;h=ece3c77482b3ff006b973f1ed90b708e26556862;hb=HEAD http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/...
    - deleted 14y ago
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    - mjs 14y ago
      The HEAD version is a bit different (less clear?), although the intent is more or less the same: "describe changes in imperative mood, e.g. "make xyzzy do frotz" instead of "[This patch] makes xyzzy do frotz" or "[I] changed xyzzy to do frotz", as if you are giving orders to the codebase to change its behaviour." http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SubmittingPatches;hb=HEAD http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/...
      - why-el 14y ago
        Exactly, same as when you are cherry-picking.
  - 14y ago
spinlock 14y ago
Man, now I feel like a total hack. I love the github pull request. I do insist that my devs use a good style (i.e. first line is a summary and wrap at 80 chars) but I love the user interface for looking at diffs and doing a code review. I had no idea it was inferior until reading this and now I find myself in the awkward position that I don't care. Have I really become the guy who values an efficient team process more that adherence to esoteric specifications. God, I can't believe it's come to that.
- ajross 14y ago
  The pull request as a mechanism for "here are some changes to look at" for a small project isn't the same thing as "Here are the USB stack changes for the 3.4 merge window". The kernel has a mature, rigorous and well-defined development process[1]. Things that don't fit well into that model just aren't going to be successful, even if they work well in other contexts. [1] http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git;a=tree;f=Documentation/development-process http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git...
  - ajross 14y ago
    It's also worth pointing out that the "pull request" in question here was a 2-liner addition of a USB device ID that should have gone to a subsystem maintainer anyway.
- geoffhill 14y ago
  Don't sweat it; Linus's needs are far different from the rest of us. We're talking about the guy here who made Git just to have a tool that perfectly conformed to his ideal kernel development process. Since his job is basically to be a full-time pull request approver, it makes sense that he would be extremely specific about the format to improve his efficiency.
- oijaf888 14y ago
  I doubt your devs number as many as the kernel contributors nor are they working as independently. Perhaps "esoteric specifications" exist for a reason on a massive project which has seen and tried many things in the past 20 years. If your devs commit bad code its probably pretty easy for you to find them and possibly fire them. If you can't tell who a kernel patch is from or even if it is actually from the person specified it calls into question the security of the kernel.
fictorial 14y ago
How on Earth is this drivel at the top of HN?
- daenz 14y ago
  It's nearly the tech equivalent of a tabloid article. It sells because it has level of entertainment value, not found in "why fictorial won't do github pull requests"
- ergo14 14y ago
  Linus offended github religion here. How can you be surprised? Seeing Github this/github that... new posts every week on top of the page ;-)
alain94040 14y ago
It's 2012 and we're still arguing about line breaks and 80-character lines?
- jarek 14y ago
  It's 2012 and Gmail can't consistently reflow lines in emails between its flagship web client and its flagship Android client... so yes, it would appear so.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    What?
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Okay. Thanks for the downvote, so I'll ask again, "what?". I don't know what you're talking about and have never experienced anything that might fit that description. Can you offer an example.
      - jarek 14y ago
        Sorry to see you downvoted. Reflowing refers to reconstructing lines broken by line wrapping. Here's the example I was referring to: Grab a couple of unwrapped paragraphs of lorem ipsum (make sure there's no explicit newlines) and email them to yourself as a plain-text email using the desktop web gmail interface. You will notice that when you open the email in your inbox, it shows up with line breaks - Gmail sent it with explicit newlines after ~80 characters. (Use Show Original if you want to confirm.) Now open the same email in the Gmail app on Android (I'm using Gmail 2.3.6 - the newest available on my Androids 2.2 and 2.3.6). My Android screen, like most smartphone screens, isn't wide enough to hold all 80 characters in one line, it's more like 50 or 60 characters. Gmail wraps the email to fit, which is expected and desirable. The problem is it keeps the original linebreaks at 80 characters, resulting in two linebreaks. Every other line is short at 20 or 30 characters and the email looks very jagged. Reading it is very uncomfortable. It gets really messy when you have quoted text, particularly with interleaved response style. There's actually a whole bunch of standards or semi-standards and techniques around doing this kinda stuff. Standalone mailers have been doing reflowing and format=flowed for a while now. Sad to see Gmail drop the ball on this.
bitops 14y ago
From his "subsurface" project README. Also, please write good git commit messages. A good commit message looks like this: Header line: explaining the commit in one line Body of commit message is a few lines of text, explaining things in more detail, possibly giving some background about the issue being fixed, etc etc. The body of the commit message can be several paragraphs, and please do proper word-wrap and keep columns shorter than about 74 characters or so. That way "git log" will show things nicely even when it's indented. Reported-by: whoever-reported-it Signed-off-by: Your Name <youremail@yourhost.com>
rit 14y ago
Fun Fact: If you tack '.patch' onto the end of a Pull Request you get a 'git am' compatible patch file complete with the email address that Linus complains is missing ;) https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17.patch https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17.patch EDIT: I should note this works on any commit as well. Take this commit from Casbah (the Scala MongoDB driver I work on) - https://github.com/mongodb/casbah/commit/990a36fbde69db26689b9bcf680719928f6c11c8.patch https://github.com/mongodb/casbah/commit/990a36fbde69db26689... - removing .patch gives you the normal web based github commit page.
- deleted 14y ago
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  - dchest 14y ago
    How is your email "supposedly private" if it's in a public git repository?
    - platz 14y ago
      The profile edit screen does say: [Email (will be public)]
      - deleted 14y ago
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    - deleted 14y ago
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    - onedognight 14y ago
      The email address you used to sign up for github (the one optionally kept private by github) and the email address in any commit messages are unrelated.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - 14y ago
zbowling 14y ago
Some insightful comments on the github are getting deleted.
marcamillion 14y ago
I don't mean to be overly critical, but is it just me or are the 'godfathers' of computer science starting to sound like cranky old men? I mean....ok....this pull request being inferior to the way HE (the creator of Git) imagined it (or implemented it) is a bit petty imho. What's with the complaining? I am sure this is not the first time I have heard him complaining about something on Github or some other 'new technology'. The same goes with Crockford and his semi-colon. Edit: Although, I must confess that it is annoying when the creators of a service that you use totally blow off your suggestions (esp. when that service is built on your own creation).....so I am torn on this one. Still has the 'annoying old man complaining feel' to it though.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  Crockford is heavily opinionated, and it's reflected in his work. JSLint is like a virtual Crockford, that yells at you for misplacing whitespace, semicolons, using functions with the word 'Sync' in them, bitwise operators, switch statements, and more. If Linus wrote a lint for C, I really wonder what it would be like.
  - ori_b 14y ago
    You don't need to wonder: https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  The fact that his comment is capped at 74/80 characters and signed only corroborate your feelings.
  - JonahBraun 14y ago
    Looks like he replied through email rather than the github interface. His mail client would have formated the email and signature.
    - deleted 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
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mindstab 14y ago
The man wrote git for use on the Linux kernel. Trying to argue with him about how to use git with respect to your tiny patch to the Linux kernel seems... like missing the point on a great many things. The rules for submitting kernel patches are laid out in great detail. Do you really thing arguing with the gatekeeper is going to change anything?
- vibrunazo 14y ago
  On the very least, knowing his reasons is very informative.
- kylemaxwell 14y ago
  In that vein, when somebody tells Linus: "You might have fun raging on the internet, but I think your goals would be better served if..." He rightly responds: "Umm. I think I've been able to reach my goals on the internet better than most people." I believe in civility and courtesy in many areas, and Linus doesn't phrase things exactly as I would. But then, I don't have his responsibility or experiences, either - and while people can disagree about whether he expresses his thoughts in a polite manner, he certainly does so in a clear one.
  - eta_carinae 14y ago
    > I believe in civility and courtesy in many areas, and Linus doesn't phrase things exactly as I would. And a few messages down, he proceeds to say "You are a moron". Not exactly a role model of civility.
    - pdw 14y ago
      But that was in response to some "Joseph", presumably one of "dozens of troll comments" that got deleted shortly after.
    - boreacrat 14y ago
      That was in response to pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...
dhconnelly 14y ago
antirez via twitter: "Linus, I'm with you. Preserve your bastion of code quality as it's something rare and rapidly fading away." https://twitter.com/#!/antirez/status/201065752395124737 https://twitter.com/#!/antirez/status/201065752395124737
- nwmcsween 14y ago
  Linux and code quality? I think you may be confused.
  - deleted 14y ago
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  - chj 14y ago
    Please name one project out performing Linux kernel in terms of your definition of code quality. I'd like to have a surprise.
    - ciupicri 14y ago
      I can't speak for himself, but BSDs, especially NetBSD and OpenBSD are known for their code quality. Quoting from "What is NetBSD?"[1]: "The basic features of NetBSD are: Code quality and correctness ...". [1] http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-intro.html http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-intro.html [2] http://corte.si/posts/code/reading-code.html http://corte.si/posts/code/reading-code.html
      - sliverstorm 14y ago
        While you are only doing as chj asks, I would point out that NetBSD and OpenBSD have the advantage of being exceedingly compact, simple, have fewer features, fewer contributors, and generally travel at a slower development pace.
    - nwmcsween 14y ago
      Define code quality: braindead GNU extensions such as nested functions - Linux uses that, How about the separation of DM and MD due to ego's, how every driver without a lib (such as libata) warranting a few exceptions has to rewrite boilerplate for basic things - frame buffer drivers are a good example. How about the syscall bugs - look into glibc if you feel like gouging your eyes out or jemalloc for more tame code. Linux itself is more an ecosystem of code and not a single project some parts are good while others are very very bad.
ilaksh 14y ago
Maybe github can make it easier to send messages in reply to a pull request, or even show an email field there. Having people type out their email into the pull request is not the best way to handle that on the web interface I don't think (although practically speaking if you want to use email it is perfectly reasonable to make that a rule for your project until there is a feature like that for git and github). Ideally git itself could make it convenient to view that as a separate field with the pull request. I am also pissed when someone ignores a feature I have written and redoes something without good reason. Torvalds probably doesn't have time to handle a whole bunch of git pull requests, and most of them from github probably have problems or aren't important so this rule probably helps him a lot, practically speaking. But obviously the people at github should really carefully analyze what he is requesting and if possible this could result in some minor improvements in that part of the github interface or git or both. I don't know much about the Linux kernel, but I don't think that this type of driver information should be in such a centralized place and controlled by an individual or small group of individuals.
gianpaj 14y ago
i am i the only one who's reading Torvald's comments with David Mitchell's voice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSZEGj-SuI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSZEGj-SuI
DigitalSea 14y ago
As genius as Linus is, the dude needs to take a couple of shots of harden the f*ck up. I'm sick of his school girl rants and complaints. For such a well-known figure head in the open source/computing industry he sure does complain a lot.
0xDECAFFEE 14y ago
Those are long standing problems with github and they have been brought up before by others.
tytso 14y ago
I don't understand why people are upset with Linus's writing style. I considered what he wrote to be quite polite. He was merely stating his standards in terms of what he would and wouldn't accept (and github pull requests are on the "won't accept" list). He even explained why he wouldn't accept it. Furthermore, the patch was deficient in other ways. (a) it was missing the Signed-off-by: header, and (b) it should have been sent to the linux-bluetooth mailing list or one of the Bluetooth maintainers, with the linux-bluetooth mailing list cc'ed.
- laughinghan 14y ago
  I think it was comments like "The fact that I have higher standards then makes people like you make snarky comments, thinking that you are cool. You're a moron." that people thought impolite. The comment he responded to appears to have been deleted, however, so I can make no judgement about how appropriate that was. I'd like to think it was completely appropriate -- I do agree with you overall that his other comments were reasonably polite.
  - saurik 14y ago
    I don't remember the exact wording of the comment that was deleted, but I did see it and I remember it making me feel very angry, despite that I wasn't even involved in the discussion. My personal belief is that Linus' response was quite classy in comparison, especially given that others in the conversation weren't stepping up to take issue with the comment.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    He was responding to someone who told him his "shit don't stink". Sort of understandable! I note that GitHub actually did a blog entry sometime ago about good commit practice, and it seems to be the same as what Torvald's requires. Not sure I'm understanding what th issue is... https://github.com/blog/926-shiny-new-commit-styles https://github.com/blog/926-shiny-new-commit-styles
- mkramlich 14y ago
  I think Torvalds position in this issue was correct. But I disagree with the description of him being polite. In one of his comments his quote was like, "You are a moron." That's not polite. Granted, he has a well-established style when he goes into rant mode on a certain issue. And Linux is his baby more than anybody else's. And he almost always takes the right side of any issue. So we should all cut him some slack. But he was not polite. Again, it's Linux. And the issue was over what/whether/how he should accept commits into torvalds/linux on GitHub. Anybody's free to commit anywhere and fork Linux or make custom builds, distros, etc. But if there's one place he has the absolute right to be a tyrant is over torvalds/linux. The fact that he also designed and bootstrapped git for the whole purpose of doing version control The Right Way, based on his needs for Linux development, is just icing on the cake of that argument. But he was not polite.
trustfundbaby 14y ago
I get the point he's trying to make and completely agree with it, but the way he presented his issues just made me lose respect for him a little bit ... I just wish someone that respected was able to present his views in a way that younger developers could emulate. I can't help thinking tons of "rockstar/ninja" developers out there are going to embrace this abrasive style of disagreeing with people and totally rationalize it by thinking well "that's how the guy who wrote Linux does it, so that's how I'm going to do it" Someone that well respected should (and this is my opinion) never have to reach to the level of addressing someone so far-removed from the heights they've attained, as a 'moron', when simply ignoring them would do. But I'm nobody important, so what the hell do I know about anything ...
- gft 14y ago
  This was mentioned as a concern when Steve Jobs died:that budding ninja technologists would try to emulate his puportedly nasty management style. Fortunately, I think this sort of nastiness is self-limiting. The only really egotistical, nasty rock star I ever worked with destroyed himself, much to the delight ( and with some assistance from) his colleagues. I think that would be be a far more likely outcome than a nasty rock star continuing their ascent with a bad attitude.
methodin 14y ago
The one thing I'll have to give credit to Linus for is that even if people continue to post absurd comments after his original lengthy counterpoint, he will delve into a more polite rhetoric and continue to explain his point, over and over. It's quite the opposite, in fact, of many people who write online where typically the end result is simply escalation or continued fervor.
nato1138 14y ago
LT is the ultimate hacker.
codebungl 14y ago
He's an engineer, he's just being definitive!
delinka 14y ago
It's Linus's repository and he can do things the way he wants. Stop whining.
labanro 14y ago
As long as Linus patiently explained why he doesn't accept guthub pull requests, it seemed ok. But calling someone a moron for it, that kinda hurts the community!
- natep 14y ago
  He called someone else a moron, and that person deleted their comment. For all I know, that person's behavior was worse
zobzu 14y ago
Well here's the thing: Linus is right. Linus does not hesitate to criticize and always think about things before declaring them cool. Oh he makes errors like everybody. He's usually not always very nice in messages (read LKML and you'll understand). But he's usually right and he's usually not writing random things because "it is trendy". So GitHub is trendy. Linus doesn't care. Linus cares for the good features and pull isn't one of them in his eyes. And then again, I think he's right. Pull in GitHub is crappy. But what's missing from his message is the reason why the GitHub pull is crappy. I'm sure he knows, but he's using half words. Here's the reason: If GitHub enforced proper pull messages PEOPLE WOULDN'T USE IT. Why? Because it's the easyness to fork and pull that make GitHub successful. So you see, pulls have to be DEAD EASY. And that means also "single text field, no enforcement of anything". So yeah. GitHub won't fix it, because it'll be bad for their business.
- ash 14y ago
  > So yeah. GitHub won't fix it, because it'll be bad for their business. I don't think so. Read tomayko comment in the original thread: GitHub acknowledged the issue with Pull requests. Even if you were right, GitHub could add a way for a project to make its own (enforced) rules.
- ryanbrunner 14y ago
  I really don't understand why GitHub should fix it, though. It's not like it's impossible to put on a README or something else in a prominent place that pull requests need to follow certain standards. With Linus' current work flow (pull requests via e-mail), it's still perfectly possible to have a horribly structured pull request, and so they've added on rules beyond what the technology can do for how pull requests ought to be formatted. I'm failing to see why the same rules can't be applied to GitHub. Linus invented Git, and it's perfectly possible to have single character commit messages in Git. I'm not quite sure why it's a failing of GitHub that it takes a similarly loose approach to how it deals with pull requests.
peterwwillis 14y ago
If somebody invents a car and gives it to Torvalds, he'll call the designers total morons if the blinker isn't at the height that he likes.
- ocelotpotpie 14y ago
  This seems a bit misplaced. More like if Torvalds invents a motor and then someone puts it in a car, he might complain if the motor doesn't run the way he'd like. Which isn't entirely unreasonable.
  - peterwwillis 14y ago
    You're right, it's not unreasonable for him to not like it. He can dislike anything he wants to. But that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect the car designers to change their car to suit his desires. Github is not Git. It's a separate product which happens to support Git, but is not Git, strictly speaking. It's basically a social network for building software. Far removed from the revision control software it depends on. Complaining that the commit log isn't formatted in his preferred manner is similar to an engine designer complaining that the car's ODB2 reports aren't easy enough to read on his hand-held scanner. The engine designer can dislike it all he wants, but if I was the engineering team who designed the whole car, I wouldn't lose sleep over his dislikes.
cdvonstinkpot 14y ago
These details matter apparently. I hope some of these improvements mentioned will be implemented soon.
zeropointmodule 14y ago
This link would be better-titled as "Linus Torvalds pwns Github."
danieldrehmer 14y ago
Isn't it funny when he signs his comments in the end?
- kyberias 14y ago
  He's replying using email, that's why.
jamesflorentino 14y ago
For people wondering why Linus said "You are a moron" to a particular user named "Joseph": The comment he was replying to was deleted. https://github.com/pirtlj https://github.com/pirtlj in one of his comment, "I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up..." Apparently, even if a comment gets deleted from a Github discussion, it still sticks to your public activity.
corford 14y ago
Jesus, watching some of the little snowflakes on here whining about how Linus chooses to run his repository is seriously disheartening. When did the the tech community get infiltrated by so many prima donnas and drama queens? If you have a problem with Linus' style or how he chooses to use the tool he made, build an alternative (if you can...) or swap over to a different stack and get on with your life. Stop whining.
stefanve 14y ago
Github should implement a tempting system for commit messages that way every project can enforce there own standars. And those templates should be shareable, like a template repository so new and existing projects can opt to use one of the exciting ones. problem solved :)
Revisor 14y ago
Can anyone point me to best practices on writing (git) commits? Or can you sum up yours here?
- Revisor 14y ago
  Ok, found this, linked by Mr. Torvalds http://tbaggery.com/2008/04/19/a-note-about-git-commit-messages.html http://tbaggery.com/2008/04/19/a-note-about-git-commit-messa...
yaix 14y ago
GitHub, seriously, if Torwalds takes the time to point out a flaw in your software, listen to him! Really.
rogerclark 14y ago
linus is a misanthropic blowhard. as a role model, regardless of whether he signed up for it, he should be embarrassed at his behavior
giis 14y ago
I can see two stupid comments by pirtlj (https://github.com/pirtlj https://github.com/pirtlj) >pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago Ouch my feelings are broken... I just wish you would live up to your image, but then again you're just an imperfect human too. >pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...

535 points by quellhorst 14y ago

That's pretty relevant comment. GitHub pull request system is great if you want to attract a bunch of script kiddies to participate on your project. For serious work, not so much.

nupark2 14y ago
I would say the same about github's forks-as-top-level-entities system. Forking a project is a huge deal. Forking a git repository is no big deal. Github does the former, and it encourages too-broad forks, and at the same time, discourages coordination and contribution with the original project. Nearly all forks should be short-lived and completely subsidiary to the main project.
- kscaldef 14y ago
  While many projects / companies work as you say, the linux kernel development model has always been much more like how github does forks. Git was designed to be truly distributed and de-centralized, although many people choose not to use it that way.
- zoul 14y ago
  That's a lot of opinions and much less arguments (no offense). Would you care to explain the motivations behind the opinions?
  - nupark2 14y ago
    Forks -- as top-level named entities -- draw attention and resources away from the original project, possibly leaving both projects with too-few resources to survive afterwards. This is why "forking" an open-source project was considered a nuclear option prior to the emergence of github. I rarely even get pull requests from people forking my code on github, and when I do, they almost never have bothered to discuss with me prior to implementation. It's a relatively recent phenomena that is largely encouraged by the tools.
Kiro 14y ago
Why would pull requests attract script kiddies?
- rumcajz 14y ago
  Because they are insanely easy to do, at the expense of sane formal process.

lobo_tuerto 14y ago

I hope the github folks get involved in this. I'm specially interested in what they have to say about why they decided to go with what Linus calls _their own totally inferior version_. Love this no-nonsense style, but let me say that it's no only the style, but that Linus has enough on his side to back it up.

bermanoid 14y ago
You only love the style because he has enough on his side to back it up. Anyone else that acted like Linus does on a regular basis would be considered childish and arrogant. I'd take Github's version of any feature, any day, over the official git version, any time they differed - Git is a notoriously user-hostile piece of software interface-wise, and pretty much the only thing it has going for it on the usability front is Github.
- sauravc 14y ago
  I agree with the your first line. It espouses objectivity. But your second line goes in the opposite direction and make me sad.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    Might be cerebral hemispheres taking turns. naarf.
- josefonseca 14y ago
  > Git is a notoriously user-hostile piece of software Then you probably didn't use any SCCS before git. Because CVS is even uglier, Bitkeeper is the reason Linus wrote git and every other I tried was more "user-hostile" than git. > pretty much the only thing it has going for it on the usability front is Github. You sound like a Visual Basic programmer who just saw C for the first time. Edit: Bitkeeper, not bucket!
  - delroth 14y ago
    Bitkeeper. Bitbucket (and Mercurial) did not exist when Linus started writing Git.

fdr 14y ago

I also do not care for the pull requests, for much the same reasons. I like there is a way to bring a branch to a maintainer's attention and updating its commit range in event of updates before it is accepted, but the way messages that result from merging in the code is irritating, so I end up just using "git pull" to do the trick once the branch looks good to me.

mike626 14y ago

Extremely relevant criticism. It appears to be a rather simple problem for Github to resolve.

happycube 14y ago

Considering Linus created git, if I were running github I'd tend to listen to whatever he had to say about it...

peterb 14y ago
How ironic.
eridius 14y ago
Devil's advocate: Considering GitHub popularized git, if I were in charge of git I'd listen to what the GitHub guys have to say about it.
- lnguyen 14y ago
  I'm inclined to believe that they agree to disagree. Linus' use case for a pull request would probably be to much for a popularized and casual use case that is likely typical for GitHub. And anyway it's Linus' prerogative to dictate his requirements for contributing to his project. The description he gives doesn't make it seem overly difficult (use what's already built-in).
- zbowling 14y ago
  Github wasn't directly what made git big. Linus using git for the linux kernel, the bitkeeper drama, and doing talks about why git is better and everything is broken made git popular. Github has done a lot to push it, but even without github, git would still be huge.
  - trustfundbaby 14y ago
    I'm sorry man, I have to disagree with this ... I watched git take off with the launch of github, and I've seen enough people moved to git because of github to tell you that ... sure git would be successful, but without the mindshare of github in the developer community, it would not be as popular as it is now. at. all. When git was announced, I got it and played around with it for a bit, but I went back to svn, it was only with all the OSS that I cared about working with (rails gems anyone?) or on that I started caring about git in a serious way. I'm only one datapoint though.

memset 14y ago

Can someone point me to the tool that comes with git for pull-request functionality?

masklinn 14y ago
Guessing he's talking about the format-patch/am pair, but can't be sure as I'm not him. Either that, or just sending a mail with a link to your own git repo requesting a pull.
xnxn 14y ago
$ man git-request-pull
onedognight 14y ago
git request-pull If you'd like to see an example, this will generate the text of a request sending the top few commits in your repository (assuming the origin / master convention) git request-pull master^^^^^ $(git config remote.origin.url)
- xnxn 14y ago
  A tip - you can use master~5 instead of master^^^^^.
  - onedognight 14y ago
    Thanks! I expected someone might save me the time of looking that up.

losethos 14y ago

I did all of LoseThos myself. No GPL code. At one point I had a Linux floppy routine. I got ATA info. Linux is copyrighted, not patented. There are no issues. The state tries to sabatogage legitimate alternatives. The state will lose. You will receive severe judgement from God. ---- God says... C:\Text\HUCKFINN.TXT looky here; you stop that putting on frills. I won't have it. I'll lay for you, my smarty; and if I catch you about that school I'll tan you good. First you know you'll get religion, too. I never see such a son." He took up a little blue and yaller picture of some cows and a boy, and says: "What's this?" "It's something they give me for learning my lessons good." He tore it up, and says: "I'll give you something better--I'll give you a cowhide." He set there a-mumbling and a-growli ---- I wrote a compiler and kernel. Linus just did a kernel. (But a fancy kernel.)

DanWaterworth 14y ago

What, Linus found something he doesn't like?

bad_user 14y ago
Don't forget SVN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8

alexchamberlain 14y ago

I agree with Linus on a lot of things, but I wonder sometimes if he rubs people up the wrong way occasionally.

laconian 14y ago
He makes no bones about it. Git got its name because Linus thinks of himself as a git.
aiscott 14y ago
Linus rubs people the wrong way all the time. It's just the way he is wired. He enjoys arguments and hyperbole. Once you understand that, you can choose to accept that and interact with him without undue suffering, or not.
ionforce 14y ago
He's totally a jackass and it's completely unnecessary. Being the father of Linux doesn't merit you being king of jerk land.

goatslacker 14y ago

I have to agree with Linus on this and it's nice that he's taking time to write out his thoughts in public. GitHub commit messages can be really ugly. I'm guilty of this and it's not something I'm proud of. I think the small improvement they did a while ago with the display of commit messages is a step in the right direction, I wish they would apply that same style to the web interface when composing commit messages. edit: A good fix would be a way to turn off pull requests for projects or at least redirect users on how to send pull requests.

kstenerud 14y ago

So what exactly is deficient with github's approach to pull requests vs git pull-request?

gte910h 14y ago

Maintainer of a project doesn't like a tool some people like to use. News at 11. Seriously. Just dont' send this particular maintainer pull requests that way.

astine 14y ago
This maintainer is a little more notable than most... And his opinion is a little more relevant :)
- gte910h 14y ago
  That's the thing about science or really any discipline where results is more important than anything else. It's not really. If any other maintainer of a project finds they're cool with pull requests from github, then it's a fine tool for those projects. This guy runs a project which is an outlier in it's size, and which is also a far older project than most of what github hosts. Now if his criticism has useful facts, that MIGHT be useful, and it does: The github format has fewer bits of info. Could some of those bits of info be important? Maybe. I didn't sense a genuine, measured analysis, but instead a rant from a maintainer about something that's not working for his project. Nor did I see a counterpoint from github why their tool does it the way it does. There may be real design decisions there, ones that might be better answers than what Torvalds has, especially for projects far smaller than Torvalds. Don't let Torvald's status as the maintainer of the Linux kernel (and creator of git, to do that task) make you forget he's also paid attention to because he's famous as well as a useful contributor. Fame doesn't make you more right, just more adored. His ideas still require critical analysis from the rest of us.

gte910h 14y ago

Maintainer of a project doesn't like a tool some people like to use. News at 11. Seriously. Just dont' send this particular maintainer pull requests that way.

Porter_423 14y ago

Ouch my feelings are broken... I just wish you would live up to your image, but then again you're just an imperfect human too.

mjs 14y ago

It's instructive to read Linus's commits to his hobby project "subsurface": https://github.com/torvalds/subsurface/commits/master https://github.com/torvalds/subsurface/commits/master Even if I can't code like Linus, I can at least try to write commit messages like his…

why-el 14y ago
It always puzzled me why his commits (and in fact standard commits) ought to start with a verb that is not in its past form. When I started using git four months ago (such a newbie), I would write something like "Fixed this" instead of "Fix this". Anybody with more insights on this? I am just curious.
- purephase 14y ago
  It is part of the git best practices: http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SubmittingPatches;h=ece3c77482b3ff006b973f1ed90b708e26556862;hb=HEAD http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/...
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - mjs 14y ago
    The HEAD version is a bit different (less clear?), although the intent is more or less the same: "describe changes in imperative mood, e.g. "make xyzzy do frotz" instead of "[This patch] makes xyzzy do frotz" or "[I] changed xyzzy to do frotz", as if you are giving orders to the codebase to change its behaviour." http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SubmittingPatches;hb=HEAD http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/...
    - why-el 14y ago
      Exactly, same as when you are cherry-picking.
- 14y ago

spinlock 14y ago

Man, now I feel like a total hack. I love the github pull request. I do insist that my devs use a good style (i.e. first line is a summary and wrap at 80 chars) but I love the user interface for looking at diffs and doing a code review. I had no idea it was inferior until reading this and now I find myself in the awkward position that I don't care. Have I really become the guy who values an efficient team process more that adherence to esoteric specifications. God, I can't believe it's come to that.

ajross 14y ago
The pull request as a mechanism for "here are some changes to look at" for a small project isn't the same thing as "Here are the USB stack changes for the 3.4 merge window". The kernel has a mature, rigorous and well-defined development process[1]. Things that don't fit well into that model just aren't going to be successful, even if they work well in other contexts. [1] http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git;a=tree;f=Documentation/development-process http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git...
- ajross 14y ago
  It's also worth pointing out that the "pull request" in question here was a 2-liner addition of a USB device ID that should have gone to a subsystem maintainer anyway.
geoffhill 14y ago
Don't sweat it; Linus's needs are far different from the rest of us. We're talking about the guy here who made Git just to have a tool that perfectly conformed to his ideal kernel development process. Since his job is basically to be a full-time pull request approver, it makes sense that he would be extremely specific about the format to improve his efficiency.
oijaf888 14y ago
I doubt your devs number as many as the kernel contributors nor are they working as independently. Perhaps "esoteric specifications" exist for a reason on a massive project which has seen and tried many things in the past 20 years. If your devs commit bad code its probably pretty easy for you to find them and possibly fire them. If you can't tell who a kernel patch is from or even if it is actually from the person specified it calls into question the security of the kernel.

fictorial 14y ago

How on Earth is this drivel at the top of HN?

daenz 14y ago
It's nearly the tech equivalent of a tabloid article. It sells because it has level of entertainment value, not found in "why fictorial won't do github pull requests"
ergo14 14y ago
Linus offended github religion here. How can you be surprised? Seeing Github this/github that... new posts every week on top of the page ;-)

alain94040 14y ago

It's 2012 and we're still arguing about line breaks and 80-character lines?

jarek 14y ago
It's 2012 and Gmail can't consistently reflow lines in emails between its flagship web client and its flagship Android client... so yes, it would appear so.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  What?
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Okay. Thanks for the downvote, so I'll ask again, "what?". I don't know what you're talking about and have never experienced anything that might fit that description. Can you offer an example.
    - jarek 14y ago
      Sorry to see you downvoted. Reflowing refers to reconstructing lines broken by line wrapping. Here's the example I was referring to: Grab a couple of unwrapped paragraphs of lorem ipsum (make sure there's no explicit newlines) and email them to yourself as a plain-text email using the desktop web gmail interface. You will notice that when you open the email in your inbox, it shows up with line breaks - Gmail sent it with explicit newlines after ~80 characters. (Use Show Original if you want to confirm.) Now open the same email in the Gmail app on Android (I'm using Gmail 2.3.6 - the newest available on my Androids 2.2 and 2.3.6). My Android screen, like most smartphone screens, isn't wide enough to hold all 80 characters in one line, it's more like 50 or 60 characters. Gmail wraps the email to fit, which is expected and desirable. The problem is it keeps the original linebreaks at 80 characters, resulting in two linebreaks. Every other line is short at 20 or 30 characters and the email looks very jagged. Reading it is very uncomfortable. It gets really messy when you have quoted text, particularly with interleaved response style. There's actually a whole bunch of standards or semi-standards and techniques around doing this kinda stuff. Standalone mailers have been doing reflowing and format=flowed for a while now. Sad to see Gmail drop the ball on this.

bitops 14y ago

From his "subsurface" project README. Also, please write good git commit messages. A good commit message looks like this: Header line: explaining the commit in one line Body of commit message is a few lines of text, explaining things in more detail, possibly giving some background about the issue being fixed, etc etc. The body of the commit message can be several paragraphs, and please do proper word-wrap and keep columns shorter than about 74 characters or so. That way "git log" will show things nicely even when it's indented. Reported-by: whoever-reported-it Signed-off-by: Your Name <youremail@yourhost.com>

rit 14y ago

Fun Fact: If you tack '.patch' onto the end of a Pull Request you get a 'git am' compatible patch file complete with the email address that Linus complains is missing ;) https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17.patch https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17.patch EDIT: I should note this works on any commit as well. Take this commit from Casbah (the Scala MongoDB driver I work on) - https://github.com/mongodb/casbah/commit/990a36fbde69db26689b9bcf680719928f6c11c8.patch https://github.com/mongodb/casbah/commit/990a36fbde69db26689... - removing .patch gives you the normal web based github commit page.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- dchest 14y ago
  How is your email "supposedly private" if it's in a public git repository?
  - platz 14y ago
    The profile edit screen does say: [Email (will be public)]
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - onedognight 14y ago
    The email address you used to sign up for github (the one optionally kept private by github) and the email address in any commit messages are unrelated.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- 14y ago

zbowling 14y ago

Some insightful comments on the github are getting deleted.

marcamillion 14y ago

I don't mean to be overly critical, but is it just me or are the 'godfathers' of computer science starting to sound like cranky old men? I mean....ok....this pull request being inferior to the way HE (the creator of Git) imagined it (or implemented it) is a bit petty imho. What's with the complaining? I am sure this is not the first time I have heard him complaining about something on Github or some other 'new technology'. The same goes with Crockford and his semi-colon. Edit: Although, I must confess that it is annoying when the creators of a service that you use totally blow off your suggestions (esp. when that service is built on your own creation).....so I am torn on this one. Still has the 'annoying old man complaining feel' to it though.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Crockford is heavily opinionated, and it's reflected in his work. JSLint is like a virtual Crockford, that yells at you for misplacing whitespace, semicolons, using functions with the word 'Sync' in them, bitwise operators, switch statements, and more. If Linus wrote a lint for C, I really wonder what it would be like.
- ori_b 14y ago
  You don't need to wonder: https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
ricardobeat 14y ago
The fact that his comment is capped at 74/80 characters and signed only corroborate your feelings.
- JonahBraun 14y ago
  Looks like he replied through email rather than the github interface. His mail client would have formated the email and signature.
  - deleted 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

mindstab 14y ago

The man wrote git for use on the Linux kernel. Trying to argue with him about how to use git with respect to your tiny patch to the Linux kernel seems... like missing the point on a great many things. The rules for submitting kernel patches are laid out in great detail. Do you really thing arguing with the gatekeeper is going to change anything?

vibrunazo 14y ago
On the very least, knowing his reasons is very informative.
kylemaxwell 14y ago
In that vein, when somebody tells Linus: "You might have fun raging on the internet, but I think your goals would be better served if..." He rightly responds: "Umm. I think I've been able to reach my goals on the internet better than most people." I believe in civility and courtesy in many areas, and Linus doesn't phrase things exactly as I would. But then, I don't have his responsibility or experiences, either - and while people can disagree about whether he expresses his thoughts in a polite manner, he certainly does so in a clear one.
- eta_carinae 14y ago
  > I believe in civility and courtesy in many areas, and Linus doesn't phrase things exactly as I would. And a few messages down, he proceeds to say "You are a moron". Not exactly a role model of civility.
  - pdw 14y ago
    But that was in response to some "Joseph", presumably one of "dozens of troll comments" that got deleted shortly after.
  - boreacrat 14y ago
    That was in response to pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...

dhconnelly 14y ago

antirez via twitter: "Linus, I'm with you. Preserve your bastion of code quality as it's something rare and rapidly fading away." https://twitter.com/#!/antirez/status/201065752395124737 https://twitter.com/#!/antirez/status/201065752395124737

nwmcsween 14y ago
Linux and code quality? I think you may be confused.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- chj 14y ago
  Please name one project out performing Linux kernel in terms of your definition of code quality. I'd like to have a surprise.
  - ciupicri 14y ago
    I can't speak for himself, but BSDs, especially NetBSD and OpenBSD are known for their code quality. Quoting from "What is NetBSD?"[1]: "The basic features of NetBSD are: Code quality and correctness ...". [1] http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-intro.html http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-intro.html [2] http://corte.si/posts/code/reading-code.html http://corte.si/posts/code/reading-code.html
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      While you are only doing as chj asks, I would point out that NetBSD and OpenBSD have the advantage of being exceedingly compact, simple, have fewer features, fewer contributors, and generally travel at a slower development pace.
  - nwmcsween 14y ago
    Define code quality: braindead GNU extensions such as nested functions - Linux uses that, How about the separation of DM and MD due to ego's, how every driver without a lib (such as libata) warranting a few exceptions has to rewrite boilerplate for basic things - frame buffer drivers are a good example. How about the syscall bugs - look into glibc if you feel like gouging your eyes out or jemalloc for more tame code. Linux itself is more an ecosystem of code and not a single project some parts are good while others are very very bad.

ilaksh 14y ago

Maybe github can make it easier to send messages in reply to a pull request, or even show an email field there. Having people type out their email into the pull request is not the best way to handle that on the web interface I don't think (although practically speaking if you want to use email it is perfectly reasonable to make that a rule for your project until there is a feature like that for git and github). Ideally git itself could make it convenient to view that as a separate field with the pull request. I am also pissed when someone ignores a feature I have written and redoes something without good reason. Torvalds probably doesn't have time to handle a whole bunch of git pull requests, and most of them from github probably have problems or aren't important so this rule probably helps him a lot, practically speaking. But obviously the people at github should really carefully analyze what he is requesting and if possible this could result in some minor improvements in that part of the github interface or git or both. I don't know much about the Linux kernel, but I don't think that this type of driver information should be in such a centralized place and controlled by an individual or small group of individuals.

gianpaj 14y ago

i am i the only one who's reading Torvald's comments with David Mitchell's voice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSZEGj-SuI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSZEGj-SuI

DigitalSea 14y ago

As genius as Linus is, the dude needs to take a couple of shots of harden the f*ck up. I'm sick of his school girl rants and complaints. For such a well-known figure head in the open source/computing industry he sure does complain a lot.

0xDECAFFEE 14y ago

Those are long standing problems with github and they have been brought up before by others.

tytso 14y ago

I don't understand why people are upset with Linus's writing style. I considered what he wrote to be quite polite. He was merely stating his standards in terms of what he would and wouldn't accept (and github pull requests are on the "won't accept" list). He even explained why he wouldn't accept it. Furthermore, the patch was deficient in other ways. (a) it was missing the Signed-off-by: header, and (b) it should have been sent to the linux-bluetooth mailing list or one of the Bluetooth maintainers, with the linux-bluetooth mailing list cc'ed.

laughinghan 14y ago
I think it was comments like "The fact that I have higher standards then makes people like you make snarky comments, thinking that you are cool. You're a moron." that people thought impolite. The comment he responded to appears to have been deleted, however, so I can make no judgement about how appropriate that was. I'd like to think it was completely appropriate -- I do agree with you overall that his other comments were reasonably polite.
- saurik 14y ago
  I don't remember the exact wording of the comment that was deleted, but I did see it and I remember it making me feel very angry, despite that I wasn't even involved in the discussion. My personal belief is that Linus' response was quite classy in comparison, especially given that others in the conversation weren't stepping up to take issue with the comment.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  He was responding to someone who told him his "shit don't stink". Sort of understandable! I note that GitHub actually did a blog entry sometime ago about good commit practice, and it seems to be the same as what Torvald's requires. Not sure I'm understanding what th issue is... https://github.com/blog/926-shiny-new-commit-styles https://github.com/blog/926-shiny-new-commit-styles
mkramlich 14y ago
I think Torvalds position in this issue was correct. But I disagree with the description of him being polite. In one of his comments his quote was like, "You are a moron." That's not polite. Granted, he has a well-established style when he goes into rant mode on a certain issue. And Linux is his baby more than anybody else's. And he almost always takes the right side of any issue. So we should all cut him some slack. But he was not polite. Again, it's Linux. And the issue was over what/whether/how he should accept commits into torvalds/linux on GitHub. Anybody's free to commit anywhere and fork Linux or make custom builds, distros, etc. But if there's one place he has the absolute right to be a tyrant is over torvalds/linux. The fact that he also designed and bootstrapped git for the whole purpose of doing version control The Right Way, based on his needs for Linux development, is just icing on the cake of that argument. But he was not polite.

trustfundbaby 14y ago

I get the point he's trying to make and completely agree with it, but the way he presented his issues just made me lose respect for him a little bit ... I just wish someone that respected was able to present his views in a way that younger developers could emulate. I can't help thinking tons of "rockstar/ninja" developers out there are going to embrace this abrasive style of disagreeing with people and totally rationalize it by thinking well "that's how the guy who wrote Linux does it, so that's how I'm going to do it" Someone that well respected should (and this is my opinion) never have to reach to the level of addressing someone so far-removed from the heights they've attained, as a 'moron', when simply ignoring them would do. But I'm nobody important, so what the hell do I know about anything ...

gft 14y ago
This was mentioned as a concern when Steve Jobs died:that budding ninja technologists would try to emulate his puportedly nasty management style. Fortunately, I think this sort of nastiness is self-limiting. The only really egotistical, nasty rock star I ever worked with destroyed himself, much to the delight ( and with some assistance from) his colleagues. I think that would be be a far more likely outcome than a nasty rock star continuing their ascent with a bad attitude.

methodin 14y ago

The one thing I'll have to give credit to Linus for is that even if people continue to post absurd comments after his original lengthy counterpoint, he will delve into a more polite rhetoric and continue to explain his point, over and over. It's quite the opposite, in fact, of many people who write online where typically the end result is simply escalation or continued fervor.

nato1138 14y ago

LT is the ultimate hacker.

codebungl 14y ago

He's an engineer, he's just being definitive!

delinka 14y ago

It's Linus's repository and he can do things the way he wants. Stop whining.

labanro 14y ago

As long as Linus patiently explained why he doesn't accept guthub pull requests, it seemed ok. But calling someone a moron for it, that kinda hurts the community!

natep 14y ago
He called someone else a moron, and that person deleted their comment. For all I know, that person's behavior was worse

zobzu 14y ago

Well here's the thing: Linus is right. Linus does not hesitate to criticize and always think about things before declaring them cool. Oh he makes errors like everybody. He's usually not always very nice in messages (read LKML and you'll understand). But he's usually right and he's usually not writing random things because "it is trendy". So GitHub is trendy. Linus doesn't care. Linus cares for the good features and pull isn't one of them in his eyes. And then again, I think he's right. Pull in GitHub is crappy. But what's missing from his message is the reason why the GitHub pull is crappy. I'm sure he knows, but he's using half words. Here's the reason: If GitHub enforced proper pull messages PEOPLE WOULDN'T USE IT. Why? Because it's the easyness to fork and pull that make GitHub successful. So you see, pulls have to be DEAD EASY. And that means also "single text field, no enforcement of anything". So yeah. GitHub won't fix it, because it'll be bad for their business.

ash 14y ago
> So yeah. GitHub won't fix it, because it'll be bad for their business. I don't think so. Read tomayko comment in the original thread: GitHub acknowledged the issue with Pull requests. Even if you were right, GitHub could add a way for a project to make its own (enforced) rules.
ryanbrunner 14y ago
I really don't understand why GitHub should fix it, though. It's not like it's impossible to put on a README or something else in a prominent place that pull requests need to follow certain standards. With Linus' current work flow (pull requests via e-mail), it's still perfectly possible to have a horribly structured pull request, and so they've added on rules beyond what the technology can do for how pull requests ought to be formatted. I'm failing to see why the same rules can't be applied to GitHub. Linus invented Git, and it's perfectly possible to have single character commit messages in Git. I'm not quite sure why it's a failing of GitHub that it takes a similarly loose approach to how it deals with pull requests.

peterwwillis 14y ago

If somebody invents a car and gives it to Torvalds, he'll call the designers total morons if the blinker isn't at the height that he likes.

ocelotpotpie 14y ago
This seems a bit misplaced. More like if Torvalds invents a motor and then someone puts it in a car, he might complain if the motor doesn't run the way he'd like. Which isn't entirely unreasonable.
- peterwwillis 14y ago
  You're right, it's not unreasonable for him to not like it. He can dislike anything he wants to. But that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect the car designers to change their car to suit his desires. Github is not Git. It's a separate product which happens to support Git, but is not Git, strictly speaking. It's basically a social network for building software. Far removed from the revision control software it depends on. Complaining that the commit log isn't formatted in his preferred manner is similar to an engine designer complaining that the car's ODB2 reports aren't easy enough to read on his hand-held scanner. The engine designer can dislike it all he wants, but if I was the engineering team who designed the whole car, I wouldn't lose sleep over his dislikes.

cdvonstinkpot 14y ago

These details matter apparently. I hope some of these improvements mentioned will be implemented soon.

zeropointmodule 14y ago

This link would be better-titled as "Linus Torvalds pwns Github."

danieldrehmer 14y ago

Isn't it funny when he signs his comments in the end?

kyberias 14y ago
He's replying using email, that's why.

jamesflorentino 14y ago

For people wondering why Linus said "You are a moron" to a particular user named "Joseph": The comment he was replying to was deleted. https://github.com/pirtlj https://github.com/pirtlj in one of his comment, "I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up..." Apparently, even if a comment gets deleted from a Github discussion, it still sticks to your public activity.

corford 14y ago

Jesus, watching some of the little snowflakes on here whining about how Linus chooses to run his repository is seriously disheartening. When did the the tech community get infiltrated by so many prima donnas and drama queens? If you have a problem with Linus' style or how he chooses to use the tool he made, build an alternative (if you can...) or swap over to a different stack and get on with your life. Stop whining.

stefanve 14y ago

Github should implement a tempting system for commit messages that way every project can enforce there own standars. And those templates should be shareable, like a template repository so new and existing projects can opt to use one of the exciting ones. problem solved :)

Revisor 14y ago

Can anyone point me to best practices on writing (git) commits? Or can you sum up yours here?

Revisor 14y ago
Ok, found this, linked by Mr. Torvalds http://tbaggery.com/2008/04/19/a-note-about-git-commit-messages.html http://tbaggery.com/2008/04/19/a-note-about-git-commit-messa...

yaix 14y ago

GitHub, seriously, if Torwalds takes the time to point out a flaw in your software, listen to him! Really.

rogerclark 14y ago

linus is a misanthropic blowhard. as a role model, regardless of whether he signed up for it, he should be embarrassed at his behavior

giis 14y ago

I can see two stupid comments by pirtlj (https://github.com/pirtlj https://github.com/pirtlj) >pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago Ouch my feelings are broken... I just wish you would live up to your image, but then again you're just an imperfect human too. >pirtlj commented on pull request 17 on torvalds/linux a day ago I did not realizes that Linus' shit does not stink. Thanks for clearing that up...