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> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lig

> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are). However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. I'm very much in favor of requiring safety critical controls that must be used frequently or urgently to be physical.

tmikaeld 3y ago
> …Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. The turn signals wasn’t removed, they moved them to the steering wheel as physical buttons. Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it…
- williamcotton 3y ago
  So that’s why everyone who drives a Tesla never uses their turn signal?
  - snowfield 3y ago
    They used to own BMWs
    - faiD9Eet 3y ago
      :D
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    That's a weird assertion, because if you're driving a Tesla and using autopilot/TACS you have to use turn signals to change lanes.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    I've seen hundreds of Teslas driving in the UK and they're just as likely to use a turn signal as anyone else (~99%). I'm not sure I've seen a less substantive comment on hacker news that wasn't flagged.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      People in the UK actually use their turn signals. Try driving around Central Texas. The joke, as another commenter pointed out, used to be BMW drivers. There is some kind of linear relationship between the luxury of a car and the lack of conscientiousness amongst many American drivers.
- nehal3m 3y ago
  You’re supposed to signal before you turn the wheel. Way too often I see people signaling as they turn, not because they are trying to communicate with other road users but because it’s the law. Indicate your intent first and then take the indicated action.
  - martin8412 3y ago
    Roundabouts..
    - gambiting 3y ago
      Correct. But then maybe OP lives somewhere where roundabouts aren't very common so they never ran into that usecase.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        In the UK, which has loads of roundabouts, this issue is still common enough to notice, and derided.
      - hawski 3y ago
        In my country there are a lot of roundabouts, but also crossroads do happen on a quite tight curve especially in smaller cities.
      - nehal3m 3y ago
        I do, but I’m also an idiot. Worse, I’m an idiot that does not even own a Tesla. Maybe my temper in traffic got the better of me in that comment.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      > Roundabouts.. And crossroads that aren't at 90 degrees. Like, you know, old cities that weren't built on a grid. The one time i test drove a Tesla I abandoned a left turn because all the roads involved were curvy enough I couldn't get the turn signal to stay on ;) Mind, it was just a test drive. I guess that if I practiced for years I could master the wisdom of Tesla controls.
- modeless 3y ago
  I would call them virtual buttons rather than true physical buttons, as they are capacitive touch buttons that don't depress and are missing a defined physical boundary. Granted, they are fixed in place and don't move. Except that, as you point out, they do move...
  - mgoetzke 3y ago
    the new model 3 highland buttons feel and behave exactly like physical buttons.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    "Designed for California" nonsense. It's pretty common to wear gloves while driving in the winter in Canada. Now you have to make sure your gloves are compatible with your car.
- maccard 3y ago
  > Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it… You're supposed to indicate before you turn, to be fair.
  - Biganon 3y ago
    Not if you want to indicate that you're exiting a roundabout, in which you'll be constantly turning
- LeoPanthera 3y ago
  They're not physical buttons. They're touch sensors. They don't move or click.
iforgotpassword 3y ago
But even then, how do you find the A/C or volume control on a touch screen without taking your eyes off the road, without accidentally touching something else? You just can't feel your way to the volume knob. Sure, you are a responsible driver and would only do that at a traffic light or other completely safe situation, but I don't know how many accidents touch controls in cars already caused with less responsible drivers, trying to adjust their AC while driving by an elementary school.
- oven9342 3y ago
  People have already died because of the screens “The ship's user interface [touch screen] was found to have contributed to the sailors' confusion.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_MC_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_M...
  - stby 3y ago
    Seems to be a US Navy thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Potential_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Potential_...). On a more serious note, there's a big difference between a vehicle like a car that is operated by one person, and a ship with a large crew with dedicated tasks.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      True. With a car there are fewer eyes monitoring the situation and frequently little or no time to correct from a mistake.
    - oven9342 3y ago
      Each crew member should have been assigned the management and activation of a given portion of the touchscreen. Morning briefing by the Captain: “John, you’ll supervise and operate the bottom left corner of the Touchscreen. Adam, as a left handed sailor, you’ll stand right to John and operate the bottom right corner of the Touchscreen with your left hand so there are no collisions in case of emergency” Aye, captain
snowfield 3y ago
To be fair, the new EVs have pretty good adaptive wipers. I have not found the bed to actually overwrite this yet.
- modeless 3y ago
  Not Teslas, unfortunately. The auto wipers are trash and always will be because Tesla refuses to add a dedicated sensor. It's a double whammy: handicapped auto mode and awful manual controls.
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  Cars for 15-20 years have had good automatic wipers, they're just becoming more widely available now (and evs are generally in the price range where it's expected). Well... except for Tesla. They decided that a person can tell when wipers are needed just by using their eyes, so certainly they could save a buck or so and do it using just a camera.
  - usrusr 3y ago
    Cars had it, because an ICE drive train is so cheap that in the price range you are talking about it's almost negligible. All the cost is in nice to have things like extra sensors for every tiny niche use case. Fast forward to BEV and suddenly the drive train eats such a large part of your cost budget that you are hard pressed to cut much of the fat of the ICE era. Carmakers haven't stopped doing electric variants of ICE models because it's oh so difficult to put batteries where an engine, tank and gearbox used to be (it's not), they switched to dedicated BEV designs to have an opportunity to do a "cost reset" about their approach to all those little nice to have things they introduced in the late ICE era to maximise the price buyers were willing to pay for a given vehicle class. The BEV-specific base architecture certainly helps, but it's as much about the expectations reset. This certainly does not mean that they switch their rain sensor to the Tesla approach, they might actually end up cheaper cost-optimizing what they have and know, but BEV does mean looking at costs in a very different way than in the ICE era.
sundvor 3y ago
Tesla wiper? Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch (multi function button) in addition to the on screen display options that then pop up. Very easy to do. Also this: https://youtube.com/shorts/3eKcDOHVZWc?si=-jL4o4Bhu-2y0ibj https://youtube.com/shorts/3eKcDOHVZWc?si=-jL4o4Bhu-2y0ibj Doesn't cover the left multi function button feature after short pressing the wiper button. (Model 3, 2022, Australia).
- modeless 3y ago
  > Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch Yes, they added this relatively recently. For the first few years I owned the car this was not possible. Also, guess what, it still sucks! More steps than a physical control, fiddly because of the short timeout, and still requires an extra step of looking at the touchscreen because you can't know which way to push the wheel without finding out the current setting. Is it on "Auto" or "Off"? They're at opposite ends of the menu. Acceptable for something less important like setting the A/C temperature; definitively not acceptable for something safety critical like wipers.
  - darkwater 3y ago
    I had cars in which for the life of me I could not ever remember which part of which stalk controlled the wipers and which part controlled the lights. Ah, and then there are Volkswagen and Opel which had the light control as a wheel outside the wheel-drive, on the bottom left, and you had to take a hand off to modify it. My point: just having physical controls doesn't mean it is easy or safe to use, if the layout sucks.
    - sensanaty 3y ago
      I haven't driven that many different cars in my life, but isn't it usually the stick on the same side as the driver's seat? Aka if the driver's seat is on the right, then the blinkers are on the right, and the other way around in left-seated cars? I switch between Indonesia and EU fairly often and most cars I've driven followed that pattern as far as I can remember (maybe I just never noticed though)
ClikeX 3y ago
Volume control is a very commonly used feature in cars. That should definitely should be a physical button. I drive a Lynk & Co (reskinned Volvo XC40) and it has a rotary knob on the center terminal for fan speed, temperature, and volume. Which are all within reach without me having to look or lean over. There's also a volume button on the steering wheel next to my thumb, which is great. The only annoying part is that the left button pad on the wheel is the absolute worst. It's essentially a d-pad with a center press, but it's one single button cover. Which leads to a lot of wrong clicks.
- modeless 3y ago
  Is there a car without a physical volume control? Teslas have it on the steering wheel. What really kills me is my wife's Civic has no pause button at all, physical or otherwise. And it autoplays media on your phone when you get in. Don't want your phone to play whatever random YouTube video you happened to click on hours ago? Gotta pick up your phone to pause it there. And this doesn't happen right away, oh no, it takes at least a minute into your drive for the Bluetooth to wake up.
  - PodgieTar 3y ago
    A Mercedes C-Class, 2023 model, also has no way to pause the music with physical buttons. It has a volume switch, and that clicks in, but doing the Airpod double click doesn't do anything. It just mutes the music. Instead you have to either use a weird capacitive DPad to navigate the Android Auto interface, or click the screen. It's terrible for UX.
  - moogly 3y ago
    Most MEB cars with the VW ID style center screen have a touch strip under the center screen to adjust volume. On earlier models this isn't even illuminated at night.
  - spicybbq 3y ago
    We have a newer Mazda, and I thought it had the same issue, but the mute button causes Carplay to pause the audio.
Kuinox 3y ago
> I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls Fan controls are important to remove fog on the windows. I should be able to enable it without looking away the road.
- modeless 3y ago
  If you live in a place where this is frequently required, in a Tesla you can put the defrost button on the shortcut bar at the bottom of the screen, where it only requires a quick glance to align your thumb to activate it. Which is actually easier than many cars with physical controls that may require multiple button presses and/or knob turns to configure all of the correct climate settings for defrosting in the current conditions.
  - arethuza 3y ago
    Much easier to have a single physical button.
    - modeless 3y ago
      Overstated. It's at best marginally easier to hit a random physical button on the center console than to hit a single button on the bottom bar of a Tesla screen, where it is very easy to grab by design. I generally don't hit those physical buttons without at least a glance, and that's all it takes for the Tesla bottom bar buttons too. This doesn't save the wiper situation, though, because that requires navigating menus. Clearly far worse than a physical control in that case.
      - arethuza 3y ago
        Well, I'm the customer and I want physical buttons! Edit: I had a car that used a touch screen feature to activate the heated windscreen - it was perfectly responsive, easy to find but I still hated it. Current car has a single physical button to turn on all relevant features with one press and I love it.
      - klausa 3y ago
sensanaty 3y ago
Teslas don't have physical blinker switches?? That is pure lunacy, are you telling me they're touchscreen activated now?
- LeoPanthera 3y ago
  They are touch areas on the steering wheel. It's not on the screen, but they're not buttons. They don't click.
  - mgoetzke 3y ago
    They do in the new models like the 3 refresh
- OvbiousError 3y ago
  From the article: > Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.
  - sensanaty 3y ago
    That's legitimately insane to me. Plus you don't even get that satisfying clunk of turning the blinkers on. God the future is turning out so lame...
    - yurishimo 3y ago
      Some parts of the future are always lame! But luckily, they can get better if at least one person cares enough to make facilitate the change :)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - nottorp 3y ago
      The main problem is you have no tactile confirmation of the blinker status. They may have left some blinking icon on on the screen, but you're watching the road and don't see it. They may have left that confirmation 'click' sound on, but you can't hear it because you can't adjust the music volume :)
CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
>However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. The fog lights are much worse
- Hamuko 3y ago
  Highly doubt it considering that fog lights have very limited use compared to the windshield wiper.
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    Depends very much on where you live. Some people need them every other day, some may never use them at all. Certainly not "limited use" when you're in a mountainous region with regular fog.
- ojosilva 3y ago
  How about the voice commands for these? ("Wipers 1-slash-4"). I just got my first Tesla, MYLR, and even though it's annoying not having the stalks given the rain sensor is absolute junk the voice command seems to work 98% of the time. The voice command is activated from a button on the steering wheel - it may require a network connection though. I haven't tried the fog lights, it may not have a command, but there's apparently a shortcut with the left stalk where you pull or push and a quick light menu comes up - 2 clicks instead of 1 but seems reasonable - I could never find my fog lights quickly enough on most of my previous cars anyway. My only concern with the wipers would be for an emergency, ie the street washers drive by and suddenly I have no visibility, but for those situations I have the button on the left stalk that fires the wipers on demand.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    Voice commands are absolutely crap and are never ever a substitute for actual controls. The device can't either hear you, mishears you, doesn't speak your language, doesn't understand your accent, doesn't understand your dialect, doesn't like the tone of your voice or just doesn't like your particular combination of words.
nottorp 3y ago
> with fan controls I want at the least a physical recirculate/bring air from outside button. The use case is coming up behind a vintage truck that was made before they even thought of pollution standards on a winding mountain road where you can't overtake and you need to pay attention to the road. And you also need to set the a/c to recirculate before you suffocate. For audio... with radio dying or dead I guess you can just run Spotify the whole trip. I'd still like volume and mute buttons.
anilakar 3y ago
I'm going one step further and arguing that if a function has no physical control, it's not essential but just a distraction and should be done away with.
jajko 3y ago
Even if I wouldn't be hating Musk for his position re actual freedom and his apparent respect for murderous dictators, these moves would solidly cement Tesla as a company I wouldn't buy a car from. Stupid, arrogant moves nobody asked for pushed down the throats of unsuspecting users. A colleague's model 3 died during rain (apparently its such a solidly built car that a bit more than normal amount of rain can kill it for good, got replaced without questions which indicates this is a well known issue). Newer version didn't have physical turn signals. He was almost crying, an early adopter with a lot of love for the company that evaporated in an instance. Its not every day that car manufacturer actively tries to increase chances of people getting killed and acts like all is fine.
elif 3y ago
What's the difference between "physical turn signal controls" and "physical buttons with haptic feedback"?
- kanapala 3y ago
  A physical control changes position and stays in that position so you can feel it to know if your turn signal is on for example. Real button changes position when you press it. Haptic button is flat surface with vibrating motor inside that buzzes so it "feels" like a click. Like in a smartphone. The ones I have seen have a lag, so you don't immediately know if your button press was registered or not.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
andrepd 3y ago
>I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen Why? What's the difference? You fiddle with these as well while you're driving, and they're also dangerous and distracting.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
> However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. My 2015 Model S has a stalk with a rotary switch for wiper control that includes several automatic and manual modes and speeds. But I was loaned a Model 3 when my Model S was being repaired and I hated it because most of the stalks had been removed making things like cruise control and the radio much more awkward to use.
MyFirstSass 3y ago
No just make buttons. Screens can hickup, scroll weird, etc. also you don't get any tactile feedback. I don't wan't a touchscreen keyboard on my laptop, and the travel is already small enough - i say bring back tactility! The dead cold glass orb has destroyed so much.
mavhc 3y ago
Let's check all those items with the Tesla Model 3 2024 manual To engage a turn signal, press the corresponding arrow button on the left side of the steering wheel. (The buttons move on the Highland steering wheel) Turn signals: To turn on the hazard warning flashers, press the button on the drive mode selector located on the overhead center. All turn signals flash. Press again to turn off. Hazard lights: Overhead console drive mode selector with arrow pointing to hazard warning light button in the middle. If a severe crash is detected by your vehicle, the hazard warning flashers will automatically turn on and flash quickly to increase visibility. Pressing the hazard warning flashers once will return the lights to their normal cadence. Pressing a second time turns all hazard warning flashers off. To sound the horn, press and hold the center pad on the steering wheel. You can access wiper settings by touching the wiper button on the steering wheel Press the wiper button on the steering wheel to wipe the windshield. Press and hold the wiper button to spray washer fluid onto the windshield. After releasing the button, the wipers perform two additional wipes then, depending on vehicle and environmental conditions, a third wipe a few seconds later. You can also press and hold the wiper button for a continuous spray of washer fluid—the wipers perform the wipes after you release. Whenever you press the wiper button on the steering wheel, the touchscreen displays the wiper menu, allowing you to adjust wiper settings. Press the left scroll button on the steering wheel left or right to choose your desired setting. Off/Auto/Intermittent slow/fast/Continuous slow/fast
trogdor 3y ago
I can’t believe that Tesla still ships cars without a center-press horn button. I own a Model S Plaid, and the horn button’s location on the yoke can generally only be reached by the driver’s right hand. Even more dangerous, its position in space changes dramatically any time you are in the middle of a turn. The horn button is not easy to press in an emergency. Same story with the turn signals. If you are in the middle of a turn and you have rotated the yoke 180-degrees, your turn signal buttons are now upside-down, and on the other side of the yoke. I have owned my car for a year and a half, and there are still times when I have to look at the yoke mid-turn to figure out which turn signal button is which. So stupid.
- archon810 3y ago
  100000% this. It's mind boggling that they managed to ship a car without the center horn, and it's even more mind-boggling that the NHTSA let and is still letting them. I got used to the turn signals and the wipers because I use them a lot. But I still haven't gotten used to the horn and the lights because these functionalities are used very infrequently, so there is no muscle memory for them at all. I've had this car for over a year now.
- ambichook 3y ago
  my current car (tk barina) has two horn buttons just to the left and right of where you expect a centre horn to be and it drives me insane. i dont typically feel the need to use the horn but whenever i do i have to make the conscious decision to press my thumb in on one of those specific spots because theyre also small enough that using the heel of your palm to do it feels wrong
- roeles 3y ago
  Given that you are most likely to use the horn to prevent an collision, and that during collisions the airbag deploys.. I would say that the center of the wheel is just about the worst place to put the horn button. Slapping yourself in the face somehow seems worse than the airbag deploying properly.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
flatline 3y ago
My Jeep Wrangler has a physical volume knob that may or may not elicit a change in volume when turned within the first 30 seconds of starting the car. Which can be literally deafening if you had on e.g. a podcast at 75% volume when you turned the car off and it turned back on to the radio. Some of these things need a dedicated circuit.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  The 2022 Acura MDX has that too, but it's not a "may or may not", it just doesn't. Thankfully they fixed it in the 2023 model, but I still don't understand why it's not fixed in the 2022 model since it's obviously software and both get OTA updates.
sandworm101 3y ago
>> I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are). It was -27f/-33c this morning when I started my car. At those temperatures ALL touchscreens generally become slow and unresponsive, especially when wearing mittens. I want the defrost/fan/temperature controls on a physical switch. I also don't want a screen that isn't happy unless it is getting a full 12v/14v. Not all car batteries will give that when cold. Frankly, I'd be happy with a series of valves ... anything other than a touchscreen. Fyi, automatic wipers are a nightmare in winter. It is very easy for them to break if caked in snow. Standard procedure being to start the car first and let it warm up as you remove the snow and ice. So you need them to be on a physical switch to ensure they are off prior to turning the car on.
NoobSaibot135 3y ago
> the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are) Normal refresh cycle period for tablets(iPads) is ~5 years. Normal life of a car is 10 years (2x). That means that by year 7 or so, multi-touch performance in autos starts to seriously lag consumer tablet market. Perhaps we need to have a replaceable/swappable infotainment console now
hot_cereal 3y ago
I don't hate that Tesla tried to do something different with indicators. I think there are some issues with how stalks work, and thinking about how to make cars better and safer is good. Complicated stalks that make adjusting your wipers feel like playing a game of Bop-It? Total pain in the ass. And assuming something is well designed because that's how it's been done for decades is obviously silly. But that doesn't make it wrong to do the research, go through the design process, and come to the conclusion that, in the end, putting blinkers on a stalk is still better than the alternatives proposed. It reeks of change for the sake of being different, rather than an actual innovation. My biggest issue with the choice is that, on a wheel, indicator buttons are constantly moving. And when the buttons are right next to each other, it makes it significantly easier to indicate the wrong direction. Or have to take your eyes off the road to find the indicator when your wheel isn't straight (suppose you're trying to exit a roundabout) And then with the lack of dashboard on some teslas, there's the knock on problem of having to look away from the road to see which way you're indicating if you think you've indicated incorrectly, rather than the indicator arrow clearly flashing at the bottom of your field of vision.

tmikaeld 3y ago

> …Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. The turn signals wasn’t removed, they moved them to the steering wheel as physical buttons. Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it…

williamcotton 3y ago
So that’s why everyone who drives a Tesla never uses their turn signal?
- snowfield 3y ago
  They used to own BMWs
  - faiD9Eet 3y ago
    :D
- resolutebat 3y ago
  That's a weird assertion, because if you're driving a Tesla and using autopilot/TACS you have to use turn signals to change lanes.
- concordDance 3y ago
  I've seen hundreds of Teslas driving in the UK and they're just as likely to use a turn signal as anyone else (~99%). I'm not sure I've seen a less substantive comment on hacker news that wasn't flagged.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    People in the UK actually use their turn signals. Try driving around Central Texas. The joke, as another commenter pointed out, used to be BMW drivers. There is some kind of linear relationship between the luxury of a car and the lack of conscientiousness amongst many American drivers.
nehal3m 3y ago
You’re supposed to signal before you turn the wheel. Way too often I see people signaling as they turn, not because they are trying to communicate with other road users but because it’s the law. Indicate your intent first and then take the indicated action.
- martin8412 3y ago
  Roundabouts..
  - gambiting 3y ago
    Correct. But then maybe OP lives somewhere where roundabouts aren't very common so they never ran into that usecase.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      In the UK, which has loads of roundabouts, this issue is still common enough to notice, and derided.
    - hawski 3y ago
      In my country there are a lot of roundabouts, but also crossroads do happen on a quite tight curve especially in smaller cities.
    - nehal3m 3y ago
      I do, but I’m also an idiot. Worse, I’m an idiot that does not even own a Tesla. Maybe my temper in traffic got the better of me in that comment.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    > Roundabouts.. And crossroads that aren't at 90 degrees. Like, you know, old cities that weren't built on a grid. The one time i test drove a Tesla I abandoned a left turn because all the roads involved were curvy enough I couldn't get the turn signal to stay on ;) Mind, it was just a test drive. I guess that if I practiced for years I could master the wisdom of Tesla controls.
modeless 3y ago
I would call them virtual buttons rather than true physical buttons, as they are capacitive touch buttons that don't depress and are missing a defined physical boundary. Granted, they are fixed in place and don't move. Except that, as you point out, they do move...
- mgoetzke 3y ago
  the new model 3 highland buttons feel and behave exactly like physical buttons.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  "Designed for California" nonsense. It's pretty common to wear gloves while driving in the winter in Canada. Now you have to make sure your gloves are compatible with your car.
maccard 3y ago
> Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it… You're supposed to indicate before you turn, to be fair.
- Biganon 3y ago
  Not if you want to indicate that you're exiting a roundabout, in which you'll be constantly turning
LeoPanthera 3y ago
They're not physical buttons. They're touch sensors. They don't move or click.

iforgotpassword 3y ago

But even then, how do you find the A/C or volume control on a touch screen without taking your eyes off the road, without accidentally touching something else? You just can't feel your way to the volume knob. Sure, you are a responsible driver and would only do that at a traffic light or other completely safe situation, but I don't know how many accidents touch controls in cars already caused with less responsible drivers, trying to adjust their AC while driving by an elementary school.

oven9342 3y ago
People have already died because of the screens “The ship's user interface [touch screen] was found to have contributed to the sailors' confusion.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_MC_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_M...
- stby 3y ago
  Seems to be a US Navy thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Potential_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Potential_...). On a more serious note, there's a big difference between a vehicle like a car that is operated by one person, and a ship with a large crew with dedicated tasks.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    True. With a car there are fewer eyes monitoring the situation and frequently little or no time to correct from a mistake.
  - oven9342 3y ago
    Each crew member should have been assigned the management and activation of a given portion of the touchscreen. Morning briefing by the Captain: “John, you’ll supervise and operate the bottom left corner of the Touchscreen. Adam, as a left handed sailor, you’ll stand right to John and operate the bottom right corner of the Touchscreen with your left hand so there are no collisions in case of emergency” Aye, captain

snowfield 3y ago

To be fair, the new EVs have pretty good adaptive wipers. I have not found the bed to actually overwrite this yet.

modeless 3y ago
Not Teslas, unfortunately. The auto wipers are trash and always will be because Tesla refuses to add a dedicated sensor. It's a double whammy: handicapped auto mode and awful manual controls.
ahahahahah 3y ago
Cars for 15-20 years have had good automatic wipers, they're just becoming more widely available now (and evs are generally in the price range where it's expected). Well... except for Tesla. They decided that a person can tell when wipers are needed just by using their eyes, so certainly they could save a buck or so and do it using just a camera.
- usrusr 3y ago
  Cars had it, because an ICE drive train is so cheap that in the price range you are talking about it's almost negligible. All the cost is in nice to have things like extra sensors for every tiny niche use case. Fast forward to BEV and suddenly the drive train eats such a large part of your cost budget that you are hard pressed to cut much of the fat of the ICE era. Carmakers haven't stopped doing electric variants of ICE models because it's oh so difficult to put batteries where an engine, tank and gearbox used to be (it's not), they switched to dedicated BEV designs to have an opportunity to do a "cost reset" about their approach to all those little nice to have things they introduced in the late ICE era to maximise the price buyers were willing to pay for a given vehicle class. The BEV-specific base architecture certainly helps, but it's as much about the expectations reset. This certainly does not mean that they switch their rain sensor to the Tesla approach, they might actually end up cheaper cost-optimizing what they have and know, but BEV does mean looking at costs in a very different way than in the ICE era.

sundvor 3y ago

Tesla wiper? Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch (multi function button) in addition to the on screen display options that then pop up. Very easy to do. Also this: https://youtube.com/shorts/3eKcDOHVZWc?si=-jL4o4Bhu-2y0ibj https://youtube.com/shorts/3eKcDOHVZWc?si=-jL4o4Bhu-2y0ibj Doesn't cover the left multi function button feature after short pressing the wiper button. (Model 3, 2022, Australia).

modeless 3y ago
> Just push the wiper button on the left stalk and you can cycle through the speed settings with the left funky switch Yes, they added this relatively recently. For the first few years I owned the car this was not possible. Also, guess what, it still sucks! More steps than a physical control, fiddly because of the short timeout, and still requires an extra step of looking at the touchscreen because you can't know which way to push the wheel without finding out the current setting. Is it on "Auto" or "Off"? They're at opposite ends of the menu. Acceptable for something less important like setting the A/C temperature; definitively not acceptable for something safety critical like wipers.
- darkwater 3y ago
  I had cars in which for the life of me I could not ever remember which part of which stalk controlled the wipers and which part controlled the lights. Ah, and then there are Volkswagen and Opel which had the light control as a wheel outside the wheel-drive, on the bottom left, and you had to take a hand off to modify it. My point: just having physical controls doesn't mean it is easy or safe to use, if the layout sucks.
  - sensanaty 3y ago
    I haven't driven that many different cars in my life, but isn't it usually the stick on the same side as the driver's seat? Aka if the driver's seat is on the right, then the blinkers are on the right, and the other way around in left-seated cars? I switch between Indonesia and EU fairly often and most cars I've driven followed that pattern as far as I can remember (maybe I just never noticed though)

ClikeX 3y ago

Volume control is a very commonly used feature in cars. That should definitely should be a physical button. I drive a Lynk & Co (reskinned Volvo XC40) and it has a rotary knob on the center terminal for fan speed, temperature, and volume. Which are all within reach without me having to look or lean over. There's also a volume button on the steering wheel next to my thumb, which is great. The only annoying part is that the left button pad on the wheel is the absolute worst. It's essentially a d-pad with a center press, but it's one single button cover. Which leads to a lot of wrong clicks.

modeless 3y ago
Is there a car without a physical volume control? Teslas have it on the steering wheel. What really kills me is my wife's Civic has no pause button at all, physical or otherwise. And it autoplays media on your phone when you get in. Don't want your phone to play whatever random YouTube video you happened to click on hours ago? Gotta pick up your phone to pause it there. And this doesn't happen right away, oh no, it takes at least a minute into your drive for the Bluetooth to wake up.
- PodgieTar 3y ago
  A Mercedes C-Class, 2023 model, also has no way to pause the music with physical buttons. It has a volume switch, and that clicks in, but doing the Airpod double click doesn't do anything. It just mutes the music. Instead you have to either use a weird capacitive DPad to navigate the Android Auto interface, or click the screen. It's terrible for UX.
- moogly 3y ago
  Most MEB cars with the VW ID style center screen have a touch strip under the center screen to adjust volume. On earlier models this isn't even illuminated at night.
- spicybbq 3y ago
  We have a newer Mazda, and I thought it had the same issue, but the mute button causes Carplay to pause the audio.

Kuinox 3y ago

> I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls Fan controls are important to remove fog on the windows. I should be able to enable it without looking away the road.

modeless 3y ago
If you live in a place where this is frequently required, in a Tesla you can put the defrost button on the shortcut bar at the bottom of the screen, where it only requires a quick glance to align your thumb to activate it. Which is actually easier than many cars with physical controls that may require multiple button presses and/or knob turns to configure all of the correct climate settings for defrosting in the current conditions.
- arethuza 3y ago
  Much easier to have a single physical button.
  - modeless 3y ago
    Overstated. It's at best marginally easier to hit a random physical button on the center console than to hit a single button on the bottom bar of a Tesla screen, where it is very easy to grab by design. I generally don't hit those physical buttons without at least a glance, and that's all it takes for the Tesla bottom bar buttons too. This doesn't save the wiper situation, though, because that requires navigating menus. Clearly far worse than a physical control in that case.
    - arethuza 3y ago
      Well, I'm the customer and I want physical buttons! Edit: I had a car that used a touch screen feature to activate the heated windscreen - it was perfectly responsive, easy to find but I still hated it. Current car has a single physical button to turn on all relevant features with one press and I love it.
    - klausa 3y ago

sensanaty 3y ago

Teslas don't have physical blinker switches?? That is pure lunacy, are you telling me they're touchscreen activated now?

LeoPanthera 3y ago
They are touch areas on the steering wheel. It's not on the screen, but they're not buttons. They don't click.
- mgoetzke 3y ago
  They do in the new models like the 3 refresh
OvbiousError 3y ago
From the article: > Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  That's legitimately insane to me. Plus you don't even get that satisfying clunk of turning the blinkers on. God the future is turning out so lame...
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    Some parts of the future are always lame! But luckily, they can get better if at least one person cares enough to make facilitate the change :)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - nottorp 3y ago
    The main problem is you have no tactile confirmation of the blinker status. They may have left some blinking icon on on the screen, but you're watching the road and don't see it. They may have left that confirmation 'click' sound on, but you can't hear it because you can't adjust the music volume :)

CorrectHorseBat 3y ago

>However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. The fog lights are much worse

Hamuko 3y ago
Highly doubt it considering that fog lights have very limited use compared to the windshield wiper.
- trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  Depends very much on where you live. Some people need them every other day, some may never use them at all. Certainly not "limited use" when you're in a mountainous region with regular fog.
ojosilva 3y ago
How about the voice commands for these? ("Wipers 1-slash-4"). I just got my first Tesla, MYLR, and even though it's annoying not having the stalks given the rain sensor is absolute junk the voice command seems to work 98% of the time. The voice command is activated from a button on the steering wheel - it may require a network connection though. I haven't tried the fog lights, it may not have a command, but there's apparently a shortcut with the left stalk where you pull or push and a quick light menu comes up - 2 clicks instead of 1 but seems reasonable - I could never find my fog lights quickly enough on most of my previous cars anyway. My only concern with the wipers would be for an emergency, ie the street washers drive by and suddenly I have no visibility, but for those situations I have the button on the left stalk that fires the wipers on demand.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  Voice commands are absolutely crap and are never ever a substitute for actual controls. The device can't either hear you, mishears you, doesn't speak your language, doesn't understand your accent, doesn't understand your dialect, doesn't like the tone of your voice or just doesn't like your particular combination of words.

nottorp 3y ago

> with fan controls I want at the least a physical recirculate/bring air from outside button. The use case is coming up behind a vintage truck that was made before they even thought of pollution standards on a winding mountain road where you can't overtake and you need to pay attention to the road. And you also need to set the a/c to recirculate before you suffocate. For audio... with radio dying or dead I guess you can just run Spotify the whole trip. I'd still like volume and mute buttons.

anilakar 3y ago

I'm going one step further and arguing that if a function has no physical control, it's not essential but just a distraction and should be done away with.

jajko 3y ago

Even if I wouldn't be hating Musk for his position re actual freedom and his apparent respect for murderous dictators, these moves would solidly cement Tesla as a company I wouldn't buy a car from. Stupid, arrogant moves nobody asked for pushed down the throats of unsuspecting users. A colleague's model 3 died during rain (apparently its such a solidly built car that a bit more than normal amount of rain can kill it for good, got replaced without questions which indicates this is a well known issue). Newer version didn't have physical turn signals. He was almost crying, an early adopter with a lot of love for the company that evaporated in an instance. Its not every day that car manufacturer actively tries to increase chances of people getting killed and acts like all is fine.

elif 3y ago

What's the difference between "physical turn signal controls" and "physical buttons with haptic feedback"?

kanapala 3y ago
A physical control changes position and stays in that position so you can feel it to know if your turn signal is on for example. Real button changes position when you press it. Haptic button is flat surface with vibrating motor inside that buzzes so it "feels" like a click. Like in a smartphone. The ones I have seen have a lag, so you don't immediately know if your button press was registered or not.
deleted 3y ago
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andrepd 3y ago

>I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen Why? What's the difference? You fiddle with these as well while you're driving, and they're also dangerous and distracting.

kwhitefoot 3y ago

> However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. My 2015 Model S has a stalk with a rotary switch for wiper control that includes several automatic and manual modes and speeds. But I was loaned a Model 3 when my Model S was being repaired and I hated it because most of the stalks had been removed making things like cruise control and the radio much more awkward to use.

MyFirstSass 3y ago

No just make buttons. Screens can hickup, scroll weird, etc. also you don't get any tactile feedback. I don't wan't a touchscreen keyboard on my laptop, and the travel is already small enough - i say bring back tactility! The dead cold glass orb has destroyed so much.

mavhc 3y ago

Let's check all those items with the Tesla Model 3 2024 manual To engage a turn signal, press the corresponding arrow button on the left side of the steering wheel. (The buttons move on the Highland steering wheel) Turn signals: To turn on the hazard warning flashers, press the button on the drive mode selector located on the overhead center. All turn signals flash. Press again to turn off. Hazard lights: Overhead console drive mode selector with arrow pointing to hazard warning light button in the middle. If a severe crash is detected by your vehicle, the hazard warning flashers will automatically turn on and flash quickly to increase visibility. Pressing the hazard warning flashers once will return the lights to their normal cadence. Pressing a second time turns all hazard warning flashers off. To sound the horn, press and hold the center pad on the steering wheel. You can access wiper settings by touching the wiper button on the steering wheel Press the wiper button on the steering wheel to wipe the windshield. Press and hold the wiper button to spray washer fluid onto the windshield. After releasing the button, the wipers perform two additional wipes then, depending on vehicle and environmental conditions, a third wipe a few seconds later. You can also press and hold the wiper button for a continuous spray of washer fluid—the wipers perform the wipes after you release. Whenever you press the wiper button on the steering wheel, the touchscreen displays the wiper menu, allowing you to adjust wiper settings. Press the left scroll button on the steering wheel left or right to choose your desired setting. Off/Auto/Intermittent slow/fast/Continuous slow/fast

trogdor 3y ago

I can’t believe that Tesla still ships cars without a center-press horn button. I own a Model S Plaid, and the horn button’s location on the yoke can generally only be reached by the driver’s right hand. Even more dangerous, its position in space changes dramatically any time you are in the middle of a turn. The horn button is not easy to press in an emergency. Same story with the turn signals. If you are in the middle of a turn and you have rotated the yoke 180-degrees, your turn signal buttons are now upside-down, and on the other side of the yoke. I have owned my car for a year and a half, and there are still times when I have to look at the yoke mid-turn to figure out which turn signal button is which. So stupid.

archon810 3y ago
100000% this. It's mind boggling that they managed to ship a car without the center horn, and it's even more mind-boggling that the NHTSA let and is still letting them. I got used to the turn signals and the wipers because I use them a lot. But I still haven't gotten used to the horn and the lights because these functionalities are used very infrequently, so there is no muscle memory for them at all. I've had this car for over a year now.
ambichook 3y ago
my current car (tk barina) has two horn buttons just to the left and right of where you expect a centre horn to be and it drives me insane. i dont typically feel the need to use the horn but whenever i do i have to make the conscious decision to press my thumb in on one of those specific spots because theyre also small enough that using the heel of your palm to do it feels wrong
roeles 3y ago
Given that you are most likely to use the horn to prevent an collision, and that during collisions the airbag deploys.. I would say that the center of the wheel is just about the worst place to put the horn button. Slapping yourself in the face somehow seems worse than the airbag deploying properly.
- FireBeyond 3y ago

flatline 3y ago

My Jeep Wrangler has a physical volume knob that may or may not elicit a change in volume when turned within the first 30 seconds of starting the car. Which can be literally deafening if you had on e.g. a podcast at 75% volume when you turned the car off and it turned back on to the radio. Some of these things need a dedicated circuit.

stronglikedan 3y ago
The 2022 Acura MDX has that too, but it's not a "may or may not", it just doesn't. Thankfully they fixed it in the 2023 model, but I still don't understand why it's not fixed in the 2022 model since it's obviously software and both get OTA updates.

sandworm101 3y ago

>> I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are). It was -27f/-33c this morning when I started my car. At those temperatures ALL touchscreens generally become slow and unresponsive, especially when wearing mittens. I want the defrost/fan/temperature controls on a physical switch. I also don't want a screen that isn't happy unless it is getting a full 12v/14v. Not all car batteries will give that when cold. Frankly, I'd be happy with a series of valves ... anything other than a touchscreen. Fyi, automatic wipers are a nightmare in winter. It is very easy for them to break if caked in snow. Standard procedure being to start the car first and let it warm up as you remove the snow and ice. So you need them to be on a physical switch to ensure they are off prior to turning the car on.

NoobSaibot135 3y ago

> the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are) Normal refresh cycle period for tablets(iPads) is ~5 years. Normal life of a car is 10 years (2x). That means that by year 7 or so, multi-touch performance in autos starts to seriously lag consumer tablet market. Perhaps we need to have a replaceable/swappable infotainment console now

hot_cereal 3y ago

I don't hate that Tesla tried to do something different with indicators. I think there are some issues with how stalks work, and thinking about how to make cars better and safer is good. Complicated stalks that make adjusting your wipers feel like playing a game of Bop-It? Total pain in the ass. And assuming something is well designed because that's how it's been done for decades is obviously silly. But that doesn't make it wrong to do the research, go through the design process, and come to the conclusion that, in the end, putting blinkers on a stalk is still better than the alternatives proposed. It reeks of change for the sake of being different, rather than an actual innovation. My biggest issue with the choice is that, on a wheel, indicator buttons are constantly moving. And when the buttons are right next to each other, it makes it significantly easier to indicate the wrong direction. Or have to take your eyes off the road to find the indicator when your wheel isn't straight (suppose you're trying to exit a roundabout) And then with the lack of dashboard on some teslas, there's the knock on problem of having to look away from the road to see which way you're indicating if you think you've indicated incorrectly, rather than the indicator arrow clearly flashing at the bottom of your field of vision.