22 ms·

The degree to which Apple has kinda just “won” laptops is nuts to me. $999 for an 13-inch M2 Air is just bonkers. You can easily pay $1500, even $2000 for Wind

• snizovtsev 3y ago
  $999 is for soldered 8GB/256GB crap. Add $400 for 16GB/512GB models.
  • ofrzeta 3y ago
    It's not crap, though. I am using the exact config with an M1 and it's really quite usable, even for development. Also I have hundreds of tabs open. You can even watch movies because the speakers are so good - opposed to any PC laptop I ever owned.
    • sys_64738 3y ago
      It might be usable but the cost difference of 8/256 and 16/512 is negligible. But Apple wants to price gouge you if you want the latter. Computing hardware was always about providing the maximum upfront to give headroom in the future.
  • dbbk 3y ago
    I can guarantee you that most people buying the $999 laptop have 5 Chrome tabs open and don't store files on their computer. 8GB/256GB is fine.
    • dboreham 3y ago
      Then they could use a $200 Chromebook.
      • vundercind 3y ago
        Worse battery life, such weak hardware (you're bringing up $200 models) that they're laggy and shitty even with a few Chrome tabs, bad trackpads, terrible accessibility options compared to Macs (I was very surprised to discover this latter issue when configuring my elderly father's Chromebook, given the market for Chromebooks is basically kids and old people) $200 Chromebooks are the kind my various teacher friends complain about because they're so shit that they even drive elementary school kids crazy.
      • leetharris 3y ago
        But they don't want to. This is what people who are spec chasers miss. They want to use a MacBook because it's a joy to use compared to a shitty $200 Chromebook
    • NBJack 3y ago
      That's a bold statement. Videos, music, photos, all of these add up fast. I have encountered plenty of family and friends needing help when their storage is exhausted. Then there is the ever increasong bloat of software, web apps, etc. that chew through RAM. If this isn't a daily driver, sure. It is fine. But for those where this is their only computer, this is a lot of money for an 'entry level' model that can't do as much.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      • lotsofpulp 3y ago
        I am still using a 2015 MacBook Air with 8GB / 256GB, and I use Excel/Safari/Chrome Remote Desktop/VLC/Photos/Handbrake/etc just fine. And I bet I use my computer more strenuously than 90% of the population.
      • szundi 3y ago
        What are you talking about? Apple Music streaming, Netflix, Youtube. Nothing on the machine. Those times are over when you swim in the mainstream.
        • w0m 3y ago
          You're making the argument to get them to buy iPads, not entry level laptops for roughly the same price (+-100usd)
          • dbbk 3y ago
            And a lot of them do! But that's not feasible for everyone or every use case, for example I would never give a college student just an iPad.
      • dbbk 3y ago
        The year is 2024, most people don't store videos, music or photos as files on their computer.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      256gb is 3 AAA games. luckily Apple solves this problem by not being able to run any games.
      • gs17 3y ago
        At least on my MBA, 50-60 GB is taken up by the system itself, so 2 games really.
    • huuhee3 3y ago
      Most of those people could save 600 dollars and buy an used Thinkpad that works just as well for their uses
    • jsz0 3y ago
      I dunno about Chrome but a single YouTube tab in Safari can use over 1GB of RAM these days. It's absolutely insane to sell a computer in 2024 that's gonna struggle to open 10+ browser tabs. https://imgur.com/a/VzCQ4zF https://imgur.com/a/VzCQ4zF
  • r00fus 3y ago
    I found it's completely acceptable for hobby usages that don't involve running offline LLMs. If you're doing work, get a Pro.
    • gnicholas 3y ago
      I run an offline LLM on my M2 MBA with 16 GB RAM. It's fine (but I will buy more RAM on my next machine, in large part due to LLM developments).
    • rkangel 3y ago
      I have found 8GB RAM to be completely unusable on Windows and Linux these days. Once you've got Chrome open with half a dozen tabs and any even slightly memory hungry program (VS Code or Android Studio etc.) you're out of luck. Actually I had to have my last work laptop replaced because 8GB wasn't enough for Chrome and a Teams video call! If I tried to screen share a browser tab of Jira everything would start paging. I have zero recent experience with MacOS or the M1,2,3 ARM hardware but I doubt even the very fast RAM is going to make that much difference to the above.
      • dgellow 3y ago
        I’m writing this from an x230 with Windows and 8GB of RAM. It’s a pretty old machine I’m using for FreeCAD, 3D printer slicers, and simple admin stuff, and it’s pretty usable?
      • acdha 3y ago
        8GB of RAM is extremely usable on macOS - until last year I was using that for VSC, Podman, etc. and the only time I noticed it was running x86 Java containers in emulation. Beyond the much leaner base OS, they have hardware memory page compression which seems to make a huge difference. My corporate Dell with 16GB feels slower in every way even running the same apps (Teams, Edge, etc.).
      • macNchz 3y ago
        I have been a minimum-16GB-of-RAM guy since 2012 or so, but I got a great deal last year on a base model M1 Air that I mostly just use for web/email while traveling, and as a thin client back to my Linux desktop with 64GB of RAM. I've found it surprisingly adequate, even as someone who is not so good about closing browser tabs. I can certainly get it to start swapping easily enough, so I don't necessarily agree with all of the people I've seen claiming that these machines are revolutionary and 8GB is the new 16GB, but it does seem to manage better than I would have expected. Apple's pricing on memory and disk upgrades really aggravates me, though, and was a significant factor in deciding to switch to Linux for my primary computer.
• sempron64 3y ago
  But you can also pay $400 for a number of acceptable alternatives, and about $600-$700 for a machine with a discrete GPU. It is probably the best laptop in the $1K price range for laptops that don't have a GPU, but that's basically it. The main problem with the non-Apple laptop market is that there is a mind-boggling number of confusing models, SKUs, processor/gpu variants, etc., and wildly variable physical quality control that confuse consumers and leave them unhappy. This is the flip side of choice in prioritizing, say, gaming performance over battery life while optimizing price or vice-versa. Also my personal opinion is that 90% of consumer frustration comes from the extremely subpar implementation of Hybrid Sleep between Windows, Intel/AMD, and OEMs. Consumers expect to be able to close their laptop and for it to preserve battery instead of becoming hot or dying the bag. That really needs a solution.
  • caycep 3y ago
    of note: MacBook Air actually has a decent GPU...
  • samatman 3y ago
    > But you can also pay $400 for a number of acceptable alternatives, and about $600-$700 for a machine with a discrete GPU. People love to say this without linking to a model. That's because the models in this price range are obviously not in the same weight class as a MacBook. Edit: Weight class and weight-of-laptop are not the same thing. I don't know how to explain the idiom "weight class" so that the more... literal-minded Hacker News commenters will understand what I mean, but let's start there.
    • justinclift 3y ago
      Personally, I'm ok with getting 2nd hand business grade models off Ebay. They're generally pretty good (and cheap). But a lot of people (especially the less technically inclined) will only buy brand new, which I think is for safety. Anyway, 2nd hand laptops on Ebay can be both really good and in that price range. :)
      • 3y ago
• kjkjadksj 3y ago
  Depending on your use cases the software environment for the mac has never been worse right as the hardware has gotten so powerful and cool running. Major mac devs have totally abandoned the platform in recent years. Apple needs to rebuild good faith among developers especially game developers, or at the very least get ahead of the software drain and put and end to what factors have been causing it.
  • r00fus 3y ago
    > Major mac devs have totally abandoned the platform in recent years. Abandoning the (clearly lacking) Mac Store is not these same as abandoning the macOS platform.
    • BossingAround 3y ago
      Isn't Apple locking unsigned binaries from being run on macOS?
      • r00fus 3y ago
        By default, yes, but that can be disabled by anyone with admin rights (which is also default for standard user).
• vultour 3y ago
  And they have Linux integrated into the system. I'm amazed how many developers get a Macbook just to install Docker Desktop right after.
  • postalrat 3y ago
    Isn't docker's filesystem performance still terrible in macox compared to linux?
    • sombrero_john 3y ago
      Good enough for local development
      • postalrat 3y ago
        If you can get away with the performance of machine that feels 10 years older than it is.
        • BossingAround 3y ago
          Why do you care about filesystem performance in containers? If you're running a DB from it, you surely have <10-20 concurrent users (e.g. other containers) to that DB, so who cares whether a lookup takes 1us or 10ms?
          • postalrat 3y ago
            In local development you have builds and other things that watch files for changes.
    • raxxorraxor 3y ago
      I think performance of Apple silicon is mediocre in many applications. Direct memory access by the GPU is pretty nice, but even with that it doesn't really convince. There are scenarios where it is surprisingly good though and that even includes some applications in x86 mode. The only thing I really like about MacBooks are their displays. If notebook manufacturers would get their houses in order, they could have more attractive devices again. Perhaps their management suffers from bad eyesight. Although one strength of Apple is also that Windows is so incredibly terrible right now. And I don't see that improving in the near term, their strategy is anti-user for decades. Apples strategy is too, but to a lesser degree and I don't see Windows getting anything right.
• Der_Einzige 3y ago
  999 for a laptop with 8 gbs of ram in 2024 That's pathetic.
  • whalesalad 3y ago
    In 2018 that would have cost 799. Considering inflation, Apple is doing pretty great right now with keeping their prices from going insane.
    • justin66 3y ago
      The existence of an 8GB laptop in Apple's product line was also absurd in 2018.
      • whalesalad 3y ago
        fwiw the memory bandwidth is so high on these devices that it doesn't feel as bad as it should be.
        • ephemeral-life 3y ago
          Memory bandwidth doesn't matter for these types of devices, it is memory latency that matters. But best of all is actually having your application in memory and not having to do disk reads.
          • skydhash 3y ago
            Most usual applications (native) runs under 100MB of real memory. If you're insisting on using electron apps from developers that does not care about performance...
            • ephemeral-life 3y ago
              Thats great for you I guess. When I work, I want vscode with all the fancy linting and language server bells and whistles. I want to be able to have a ton of chrome tabs for browsing and docs and I want a local version of whatever I am building to run. Im gonna make the bold assumption that this is quite common in the dev community. Given that, 8gb is pushing it, no matter how you spin the "but my memory is fast" or "but native apps"
• starkparker 3y ago
  And pretty much any M2 MBA model is across-the-board worse than an equivalent 18-month old refurb M2 MBP 13, available at the same price. With the size difference between the MBA and MBP almost eliminated, the M2 MBA was a superfluous SKU at launch, much less now.
• princevegeta89 3y ago
  For the $999 you can find Windows laptops with a dGPU and specs upto at least 1TB/32GB. And also maybe OLED screens.
  • MBCook 3y ago
    Retina level OLED? Or 1080p? It boggles my mind people still buy 1080p laptops.
    • samuell 3y ago
      To me it doesn't really make sense to have the computer spend all those CPU cycles on pixels I don't even see (because of the size of a 13-14" laptop screen).
      • giantrobot 3y ago
        The CPU isn't the component spending the cycles. Also not seeing pixels is a feature. I am reading text roughly 99% of the time I'm on my computer. Shitty low DPI screens make my eyes ache and my head hurt. My Air's screen I can turn the overall brightness down yet still have great dynamic range. I can also see it from just about any angle unlike the typical shitty 1080p panel on the average PC laptop.
    • maelito 3y ago
      It boggles my mind to see colleagues at 20 cm of their 13 inch screens trying to read their emails. Those who scale up, and aren't photographers... What's the use ?
• samuell 3y ago
  With what RAM? ... and what weight? For $1700 you can get a sub-1kg Asus ExpertBook B9 with 32GB RAM and a 2TB disk and a decent 12th 12 core Gen Intel CPU. https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-ExpertBook-i7-1255U-Military-B9450CBA-XVE77/dp/B0BCD2YGM5 https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-ExpertBook-i7-1255U-Military-B94... Not saying it is better in all respects, but definitely in some, meaning there are definitely alternatives.
  • jhickok 3y ago
    I think it's good to correct some exaggeration, but personally I would still prefer an 8gb M2 with small storage on a laptop that easily gets all day battery life. If it were going to sit on my desk 24/7 connected to a monitor, then I'd take the Asus ExpertBook. But as someone who travels and works from home but works all over the house or out of coffee shops, I would easily prefer the Mac.
    • gs17 3y ago
      >personally I would still prefer an 8gb M2 with small storage And it would specifically have to be an M2 since they upped it to 256GB minimum. I have the lowest end M1, and the tiny SSD is a constant pain when combined with the lack of RAM.
  • turtlebits 3y ago
    1080p - that's a non starter for me.
  • MBCook 3y ago
    Well the two reviews give it 1 star as a quality control dumpster fire. And the screen is 1080p from 15 years ago. No thanks.
    • samuell 3y ago
      Each specific configuration gets its own product page, so the distribution of reviews might be a bit random. Haven't had an issue with mine, except a bit noisy fan that was fixed with a recent firmware update. Battery life is stellar as well and I can easily go on for the work day and more with it, from what I've seen.
• jjice 3y ago
  You're absolutely right that they make a damn fine laptop (the build quality stands out to me) and they do a great job in that market. Anecdotally, my Framework 13 AMD ran me 1500 and I ended up with 64 GB of ram, 2 TB of storage, and an AMD 7840U. I bought my RAM and storage separately to get that end cost, to be fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the M3 actually outperforms my processor by a bit, but having way more RAM matters a lot to me. All that on top of being able to repair my own machine is a no brainer to me. I know most laptop users wouldn't care about this stuff, but I really hope Framework does well and helps bring repairability back to laptops.
  • datadrivenangel 3y ago
    I'm torn as I consider getting my next laptop: * Framework is philosophically best, and they make solid machiness. * Macbook Air has just insane battery life and is so small.
    • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Why would you be torn? To me it seems pretty clear cut. Does all your SW run on ARM mac AND do you need that long battery life? Then get a mac. Otherwise get a framework or something else.
    • bluescrn 3y ago
      Just remember that those Macbook batteries are glued in and still subject to degradation over cycles/time. A consumable component designed to be excessively hard to replace, to encourage you to upgrade sooner than necessary. (Not everyone lives near an Apple store, and nobody wants to mail the laptop off for what should be such a basic service, being without it for who-knows-how-long)
      • paulryanrogers 3y ago
        I'd agree that we've passed peak MacBook, certainly from a repairability perspective.
    • pquki4 3y ago
• johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I mean, it makes sense now that they essentially merged their mobile and desktop architecture to be one for all. That plus full vertical integration means they can do a lot of things that'd end up costing double in a windows laptop to have a pale imitation of. With that said, the specs on a Mac air are extremely modest when you really look at them. Apple is simply optimizing to do more with less.
• technofiend 3y ago
  You can, but you're getting a glorified iPad with a keyboard. Bottom-spec systems have 8GB of memory and 256GB of storage. What is this, 2012? As usual, making it a machine that's useful for light development or other more demanding tasks rapidly run you into Apple's usurious expansion pricing; what should (IMNSHO) be their bottom-end device with 16GB memory and 1TB of storage is $1,699. That will be a great little machine to use until it starts throttling. You'll need an MBP to keep consistent peformance.
• indymike 3y ago
  > The degree to which Apple has kinda just “won” laptops is nuts to me. It's nuts that the entire rest of the industry basically has own-goaled Apple into a dominant position. Apple's playbook: 1. Model-year build stability over faster go-to-market on new components. 2. Better build quality. 3. Better battery life. 4. Better display, especially in value models. I'm leaving OS and UI out of the discussion.
  • paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Other manufacturers cannot use MacOS, and have little power to improve Windows performance.
• w0m 3y ago
  that's also $999 for 8gb of ram (!!!), which will clearly throttle under any actual use.
  • gs17 3y ago
    Newer macOS is actually really good about running with less RAM. The only problem is then your SSD will suddenly fill up. If either was upgradable, this would be no problem.
    • fennecbutt 3y ago
      Think about what ram is used for. App binaries, sure. But most of what is stored in memory is content, video, image, file cache. These will not differ much from OS to OS, the only difference would be baseline memory usage before I start opening YouTube tabs.
      • w0m 3y ago
        This. Win 11 will run 'fine' on 8gb of ram also. It will also fall apart once you do ~anything other than browse the web just like modern OSX.
        • gs17 3y ago
          > just like modern OSX But my MacBook only has an issue because the SSD is pathetically small. If I had the next tier up, it would be no issue.
• bsder 3y ago
  What's extremely absurd is that most models in the x86 space seem to have gone backwards on screen resolution. My 5 year old Lenovo Carbon X1 14" is 2560x1440 while I can't buy a current X1 with anything above 1920x1200 for any price. WTF?
  • bogantech 3y ago
    What I will never understand is that the screen options differ depending on which market you're in. When I was looking at Thinkpads there was never any better options than 1920x1200 but if I switched to the US site I could order with the HiDPI OLED screen.
  • edb_123 3y ago
    That sounds very strange. I got my Thinkpad X1 Yoga Gen8 (13th gen i7 U-series w/ 32 GB RAM) with a 4K 16:10 OLED display. Best laptop I have ever had, amazingly fast and lasts the whole day. When I did my research before buying, I know the X1 Carbon was available with at least a 2.5K OLED display.
• porphyra 3y ago
  Hotter, heavier, and worse battery life, for sure. Slower is up for debate --- having more ram, more cores, and possibly discrete GPU is great for all sorts of things. The Ryzen 7840HS is not any worse than the M3 in multithreaded things. Just recently there was a Thinkpad P14S on sale for $999 that blows the Macbooks out of the water in terms of ram and storage, while having a high quality OLED display and a Ryzen CPU that can easily trade blows with Apple silicon. It is hotter and heavier and has very bad battery life, though. https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/s/7CgJwku18K https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/s/7CgJwku18K
  • pquki4 3y ago
    I just find it fascinating that people think Macbooks are faster without even bothering to at least look at some benchmarks as context. Sure, M processors are good, but Intel and AMD aren't really sleeping the past few years, but rather made some significant improvements that are worth acknowledging.
• bluescrn 3y ago
  But add the mandatory upsells to a sensible amount of RAM and storage, and the 'bargain' Mac will be rather more expensive. But yeah, there's still a real lack of Windows laptop competition these days, especially if you want a GPU. 'Gaming laptops' tend to come with severe heat/noise/weight/battery problems. (And why are competitors touchpads still shit-tier compared to Apple? Even on those bulkier gaming laptops where space isn't at a premium and the price is on the premium side)
• tonymet 3y ago
  the intro price point unit is far too limited. once you start adding ram and storage the price is no longer competitive. e.g. $1,899.00 for 15'' 16GB ram + 1TB SSD i just bot a similar aluminum HP with Oled , Ryzen 7, 16GB , 1TB SSD for $700 the build quality is good, just a tick below apple. the fan is mild, not as good as apple. but $1200 premium for apple ? I had to say no
• vient 3y ago
  For $999 nowadays you can get 13" Acer with Core Ultra 155H, 16GB RAM, and 1TB memory https://www.acer.com/us-en/laptops/swift/swift-go/pdp/NX.KP0AA.002 https://www.acer.com/us-en/laptops/swift/swift-go/pdp/NX.KP0... In $999 13" M2 Air you get 8GB Unified RAM and 256GB memory. Intel ARC seems to be better than M2 graphics. Weight is exactly the same. Usual downsides remain - fan and smaller battery life, although still pretty good.
• dividefuel 3y ago
  My opinion is you can pick two: low cost, high build quality, good specs. No one matches Apple's build and screen quality. But their base models are pretty underpowered, and it's not until you're spending closer to $2k that you get specs that feel appropriate for 2024. On the Windows side, there are lots of cheaper options, many of which have beefier specs, but the build quality pales in comparison. The right tradeoff depends on your budget and what you really need out of a device.
  • grecy 3y ago
    Are you suggesting the M2/M3 are "underpowered"? Please post links to benchmarks of a windows laptop that costs the same as a base model Apple laptop but is faster, while being similar in weight, battery life and heat.
    • dividefuel 3y ago
      Underpowered in terms of RAMs, storage, and possibly GPU. Agree that M2/M3 are faster and have better battery life. Weight/heat to me fall under build quality, not specs.
      • grecy 3y ago
        How can a laptop be "underpowered" when in fact it's faster? Next you're going to tell me the new I6 turbo engines are "underpowered" compared to the V8s they're replacing, even though they have more power, more torque and in the same vehicle produce faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Your definition of "underpowered" is interesting to say the least.