9 ms·

This is a smart move. Apple seems so far behind in generative AI it's making Google look innovative.

by riddlemethat 3y ago

nightfly 3y ago
Why does everyone have to it?
- CharlieDigital 3y ago
  If you don't have it, you'll pay your competitors to have it. Generative AI is significant enough to Apple's use cases that there would seem to be a very strong business case to bring it in house.
- gordon_freeman 3y ago
  i agree with your general sentiment but for Apple I do believe it makes sense to focus on AGI as they could incorporate it within their OSes and products to make them more productive for the users.
  - dorkwood 3y ago
    A noble goal for a superintelligence.
- observationist 3y ago
  Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech. Their "AI" is a not-so-great scripted bot over a decade old at this point. They are laughably behind the curve. Android should see widespread deployment of Gemini baked into the next generation of phones, and this could have a significant impact on Apple.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech Their reputation is of being the best. The most polished. The most accessible. It’s never been to be on the bleeding edge. Apple’s brand is that of the perfectionists. Even in their hackiest 80s lore, the elements that rise to myth are those about resourcefulness and design.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech. Quite the opposite. The iPod was panned by tech commentators; famously, "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." The iPhone saw similar reactions; https://www.fastcompany.com/40436054/10-of-the-most-interesting-reactions-to-the-first-iphone-back-in-2007 https://www.fastcompany.com/40436054/10-of-the-most-interest.... "There is nothing revolutionary or disruptive about any of the technologies."; "The real elephant in the room is the fact that I just spent $600 on my iPhone and it can’t do some crucial functions that even $50 handsets can."; "That virtual keyboard will be about as useful for tapping out emails and text messages as a rotary phone." I can't imagine how apoplectic Gates was over the iPad's success after a decade of trying to make a Windows tablet sell.
  - vGPU 3y ago
    Considering the disaster Gemini has been so far it may easily turn to being just as mocked as Siri is now.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  I think because if they don't, they'll be in the position of depending on someone else's platform to provide AI features for their products. This is just an analogy, but it would be like if you were an app developer, and instead of being able to control your distribution, you had to use someone's centralized store to sell everything, and then pay whatever they demanded, or be cut off at any time. Very dangerous!
- dorkwood 3y ago
  If developers weren't tripping over themselves to inject it into every single app that exists, there would be no reason to. But they are, so there is.
amelius 3y ago
But Google has Waymo. Either way, Apple will be far behind.
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  Yeah, but I don't think Google was planning on being an auto manufacturer. Isn't Google's plan to partner with existing manufacturers?
  - chucke1992 3y ago
    They actually did but mainly with Google play. So far it feels like Microsoft is moving faster in that regard and getting partnerships with various automakers with AI at least.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
I would rather they focus obscene amounts of effort to making the keyboard text “correction” not utter trash. Ridiculous how frequently it will completely change the intention of my writing.
huytersd 3y ago
Weird thing to say about the company that will be the definitive LLM once Pro 1.5 is available with its million tokens. I can’t even imagine what ultra 1.5 will bring.
- LordDragonfang 3y ago
  As a former google fanboy (and current genAI enthusiast that keeps being disappointed at all the models that claim to rival gpt4 and then don't even beat gpt3.5), I'll believe it when I see it.
- staticman2 3y ago
  You're kind of contradicting yourself. If a high token count tells you all you need to know about how smart a model is Ultra 1.5 would be just as good as Pro 1.5. The fact of the matter is it remains to be seen how smart either model will be.
  - astrange 3y ago
    You can make up for a lot of smartness by having a smarter model generate all the text you put in that giant context window.
    - staticman2 3y ago
      Could you point me to evidence what you just wrote is true? I just asked mistral 7b to provide 5 sentences that end with Apple. It couldn't do it. I then provided 5 examples generated from ChatGPT 4 and asked it to generate 5 more. It still couldn't do it. 10 ChatGPT examples- still couldn't do it. You seem to be saying the models can generalize on the entire context size, that I should keep provided examples up to the token limit because this will make the model smarter. Is there evidence of that?
      - astrange 3y ago
        I didn't say to provide examples. What it can do is search inside its window if you have an excessive amount of text. It can do some extrapolation on tasks it's already been proven to do, but that's not every task.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Apple seems so far behind in generative AI Apple is a best-in-class second mover. With the clusterfuck that has been generative AI (from OpenAI’s corporate drama to Google renaming and reörganizing their products every fifteen minutes) this seems prescient, with the only savvy player so far being Microsoft.
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  And so we'll be back to Apple vs Microsoft? Nostalgia from the aughts.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > we'll be back to Apple vs Microsoft? Possibly. On the consumer side, they’re in their own niches. What will get interesting is how Apple lets developers hook into the on-device AI, or one that’s running on its own metal.
  - Cyberdog 3y ago
    And '90s. And '80s.
- init2null 3y ago
  I feel Microsoft's desperation to put LLM's into every product suggests mismanagement. Same as Microsoft's past efforts to Bing everything. Adobe seems to be the only one with an empowered product team that's consistently finding sensible and profitable uses for machine learning.
  - internetter 3y ago
    I agree. The only two examples I've seen of embedded AI that "works" is Bard in search results, and generative AI in Adobe's. Everything else feels tacked on. Edit: And on my iPhone, the offline photo categorization and image OCR
  - mhh__ 3y ago
    Microsoft haven't really taken any deep interest into the (say) Office suite in decades so now they have no intuition at all for where its value is, thus the "umm copilot?"-ing everywhere.
jcgrillo 3y ago
But what's it for? I can tell what an electric car is for, can you tell me what "generative AI" is for? A car can transport goods and people, really good non-deterministic typeahead is just.. well, I don't know what I'd use it for, do you? EDIT: what I really mean is what makes people think this is a commercially viable thing to spend time and money on? Like, say one of these companies hits some magic jackpot and discovers "AGI".. then what? Is that worth money, somehow?
- gs17 3y ago
  At very least, they could make Siri useful.
- exe34 3y ago
  Have you missed all the people complaining that it'll put them out of business?
  - jcgrillo 3y ago
    No, but having tried it I can't figure out what they're talking about. Seems like more NFT-esque nonsense.
    - cududa 3y ago
      That's a really myopic observation. They're very very different. ChatGPT Pro helps me learn new concepts in new languages much much faster than I did in the past.
      - jcgrillo 3y ago
        Who would that put out of business? Does that replace anyone's job function? It sounds like you're describing something like "really good search for Wikipedia" which to be clear I think is great, but who's gonna be replaced by that in their workplace? EDIT: actually, I overcommitted a little bit with "really good Wikipedia search". I can rely on Wikipedia search to not invent stuff from whole cloth and try to pass it off as results.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
It is a smart move in the sense that building a car was a stupid move.
fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
Google is innovative in AI though.
thefourthchime 3y ago
They haven't released anything yet it's unfair to say how far behind they are. I don't expect them to catch up with Open AI but perhaps they could be on par with Google. Apple's advantage is always been superior hardware and processing. My guess is that they try to do some on device LLM. It's currently possible to run Mistral 7B on your phone (MLCChat app), which is quite decent for a small model but is pretty terrible compared to the largest / best models.
insane_dreamer 3y ago
Apple knows it has a captive userbase already. Better to let the others make first-mover mistakes and then come in with something that avoids those.
Tiktaalik 3y ago
Do we actually know if they're far behind or if they just haven't released something publicly because it's not perfect? I mean looking at Google and the various daily AI dramas they get, it seems like everyone else has rushed to market and is dealing with the negative fallout of that.

This is a smart move. Apple seems so far behind in generative AI it's making Google look innovative.

nightfly 3y ago

Why does everyone have to it?

CharlieDigital 3y ago
If you don't have it, you'll pay your competitors to have it. Generative AI is significant enough to Apple's use cases that there would seem to be a very strong business case to bring it in house.
gordon_freeman 3y ago
i agree with your general sentiment but for Apple I do believe it makes sense to focus on AGI as they could incorporate it within their OSes and products to make them more productive for the users.
- dorkwood 3y ago
  A noble goal for a superintelligence.
observationist 3y ago
Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech. Their "AI" is a not-so-great scripted bot over a decade old at this point. They are laughably behind the curve. Android should see widespread deployment of Gemini baked into the next generation of phones, and this could have a significant impact on Apple.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech Their reputation is of being the best. The most polished. The most accessible. It’s never been to be on the bleeding edge. Apple’s brand is that of the perfectionists. Even in their hackiest 80s lore, the elements that rise to myth are those about resourcefulness and design.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Apple has a reputation to uphold, of being bleeding edge and having the best, latest, greatest tech. Quite the opposite. The iPod was panned by tech commentators; famously, "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." The iPhone saw similar reactions; https://www.fastcompany.com/40436054/10-of-the-most-interesting-reactions-to-the-first-iphone-back-in-2007 https://www.fastcompany.com/40436054/10-of-the-most-interest.... "There is nothing revolutionary or disruptive about any of the technologies."; "The real elephant in the room is the fact that I just spent $600 on my iPhone and it can’t do some crucial functions that even $50 handsets can."; "That virtual keyboard will be about as useful for tapping out emails and text messages as a rotary phone." I can't imagine how apoplectic Gates was over the iPad's success after a decade of trying to make a Windows tablet sell.
- vGPU 3y ago
  Considering the disaster Gemini has been so far it may easily turn to being just as mocked as Siri is now.
karaterobot 3y ago
I think because if they don't, they'll be in the position of depending on someone else's platform to provide AI features for their products. This is just an analogy, but it would be like if you were an app developer, and instead of being able to control your distribution, you had to use someone's centralized store to sell everything, and then pay whatever they demanded, or be cut off at any time. Very dangerous!
dorkwood 3y ago
If developers weren't tripping over themselves to inject it into every single app that exists, there would be no reason to. But they are, so there is.

amelius 3y ago

But Google has Waymo. Either way, Apple will be far behind.

UncleOxidant 3y ago
Yeah, but I don't think Google was planning on being an auto manufacturer. Isn't Google's plan to partner with existing manufacturers?
- chucke1992 3y ago
  They actually did but mainly with Google play. So far it feels like Microsoft is moving faster in that regard and getting partnerships with various automakers with AI at least.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago

I would rather they focus obscene amounts of effort to making the keyboard text “correction” not utter trash. Ridiculous how frequently it will completely change the intention of my writing.

huytersd 3y ago

Weird thing to say about the company that will be the definitive LLM once Pro 1.5 is available with its million tokens. I can’t even imagine what ultra 1.5 will bring.

LordDragonfang 3y ago
As a former google fanboy (and current genAI enthusiast that keeps being disappointed at all the models that claim to rival gpt4 and then don't even beat gpt3.5), I'll believe it when I see it.
staticman2 3y ago
You're kind of contradicting yourself. If a high token count tells you all you need to know about how smart a model is Ultra 1.5 would be just as good as Pro 1.5. The fact of the matter is it remains to be seen how smart either model will be.
- astrange 3y ago
  You can make up for a lot of smartness by having a smarter model generate all the text you put in that giant context window.
  - staticman2 3y ago
    Could you point me to evidence what you just wrote is true? I just asked mistral 7b to provide 5 sentences that end with Apple. It couldn't do it. I then provided 5 examples generated from ChatGPT 4 and asked it to generate 5 more. It still couldn't do it. 10 ChatGPT examples- still couldn't do it. You seem to be saying the models can generalize on the entire context size, that I should keep provided examples up to the token limit because this will make the model smarter. Is there evidence of that?
    - astrange 3y ago
      I didn't say to provide examples. What it can do is search inside its window if you have an excessive amount of text. It can do some extrapolation on tasks it's already been proven to do, but that's not every task.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Apple seems so far behind in generative AI Apple is a best-in-class second mover. With the clusterfuck that has been generative AI (from OpenAI’s corporate drama to Google renaming and reörganizing their products every fifteen minutes) this seems prescient, with the only savvy player so far being Microsoft.

UncleOxidant 3y ago
And so we'll be back to Apple vs Microsoft? Nostalgia from the aughts.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > we'll be back to Apple vs Microsoft? Possibly. On the consumer side, they’re in their own niches. What will get interesting is how Apple lets developers hook into the on-device AI, or one that’s running on its own metal.
- Cyberdog 3y ago
  And '90s. And '80s.
init2null 3y ago
I feel Microsoft's desperation to put LLM's into every product suggests mismanagement. Same as Microsoft's past efforts to Bing everything. Adobe seems to be the only one with an empowered product team that's consistently finding sensible and profitable uses for machine learning.
- internetter 3y ago
  I agree. The only two examples I've seen of embedded AI that "works" is Bard in search results, and generative AI in Adobe's. Everything else feels tacked on. Edit: And on my iPhone, the offline photo categorization and image OCR
- mhh__ 3y ago
  Microsoft haven't really taken any deep interest into the (say) Office suite in decades so now they have no intuition at all for where its value is, thus the "umm copilot?"-ing everywhere.

jcgrillo 3y ago

But what's it for? I can tell what an electric car is for, can you tell me what "generative AI" is for? A car can transport goods and people, really good non-deterministic typeahead is just.. well, I don't know what I'd use it for, do you? EDIT: what I really mean is what makes people think this is a commercially viable thing to spend time and money on? Like, say one of these companies hits some magic jackpot and discovers "AGI".. then what? Is that worth money, somehow?

gs17 3y ago
At very least, they could make Siri useful.
exe34 3y ago
Have you missed all the people complaining that it'll put them out of business?
- jcgrillo 3y ago
  No, but having tried it I can't figure out what they're talking about. Seems like more NFT-esque nonsense.
  - cududa 3y ago
    That's a really myopic observation. They're very very different. ChatGPT Pro helps me learn new concepts in new languages much much faster than I did in the past.
    - jcgrillo 3y ago
      Who would that put out of business? Does that replace anyone's job function? It sounds like you're describing something like "really good search for Wikipedia" which to be clear I think is great, but who's gonna be replaced by that in their workplace? EDIT: actually, I overcommitted a little bit with "really good Wikipedia search". I can rely on Wikipedia search to not invent stuff from whole cloth and try to pass it off as results.

spywaregorilla 3y ago

It is a smart move in the sense that building a car was a stupid move.

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago

Google is innovative in AI though.

thefourthchime 3y ago

They haven't released anything yet it's unfair to say how far behind they are. I don't expect them to catch up with Open AI but perhaps they could be on par with Google. Apple's advantage is always been superior hardware and processing. My guess is that they try to do some on device LLM. It's currently possible to run Mistral 7B on your phone (MLCChat app), which is quite decent for a small model but is pretty terrible compared to the largest / best models.

insane_dreamer 3y ago

Apple knows it has a captive userbase already. Better to let the others make first-mover mistakes and then come in with something that avoids those.

Tiktaalik 3y ago

Do we actually know if they're far behind or if they just haven't released something publicly because it's not perfect? I mean looking at Google and the various daily AI dramas they get, it seems like everyone else has rushed to market and is dealing with the negative fallout of that.