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Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Mark Miller's conversation with Tyler Cowen is good on this subject: https://conve

Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Mark Miller's conversation with Tyler Cowen is good on this subject: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/mark-miller/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/mark-miller/. Chiles are actually fruits and, combined judiciously, create a lot of complex flavors. Excess spiciness overwhelms the flavor. And people who want absurdly spicy peppers, can get them: ghost chiles, carolina reapers, and so on. "Flavor > heat" in other words.

lupusreal 3y ago
The way commercially packaged jalapenos are now is closer to no-heat than low heat. You could swap them with chopped bell peppers and most people probably wouldn't notice the difference (and many like my father would still complain that the dish is too spicy.) Particularly the chopped and canned/jarred jalapenos; I used to buy them for pizzas and chilis but they're just not worth it anymore.
PheonixPharts 3y ago
> I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. As someone with a fairly high spice tolerance, I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor. I think anyone coming from a culture that eats spicy food will agree. I had a batch of habaneros I grew last summer that were both the most spicy habaneros I've had, and by far the most flavorful. I've also had some very tasty ghost peppers (when used in moderation). Outside of peppers that are inherently not spicy, such as pablanos, heat and flavor seem to coincide. All of the most flavorful chili dishes I've had in my life have all been quite spicy, and I can't recall any mild chili dishes I've had with nearly the same punch. The only time I've seen heat and flavor not connected is in terrible hot sauces which aim to be shockingly spices that make use of capsaicin extract.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  As someone who also prefers the taste that comes along with spice, best reasoning I have heard is folks who don’t like spice cannot even taste the flavor that comes with it, so they associate milder peppers as tasting better. I.e. when you are screaming for water you don’t stop to consider the flavor (or you may not even taste it at all as your brain tells you to go into flight mode).
  - plorkyeran 3y ago
    Yep, I literally can't taste food if it's past a certain level of spiciness. I have had hot sauces that friends insisted were incredibly distinctive but I could not even tell apart.
  - trealira 3y ago
    Yes, I think you're right. When I eat something that's too spicy for me, I can't taste anything. My tongue is numb and feels like it's burning. It doesn't even have to get to the level of screaming for water; I can power through eating it even if it's spicy enough to where my tongue feels numb, but it's not pleasant, and I don't taste anything. I wouldn't even say that I "don't like spice," as spicy food can taste good, but if it gets too spicy I can't taste anything.
    - pests 3y ago
      Yep, for me less numb just every further bite of food feels like eating fire.
- squokko 3y ago
  Your palate has been desensitized and can only taste flavor with heat. Spend 2 months with zero capsaicin and it will reset.
  - PheonixPharts 3y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I enjoy plenty of non-spicy foods, and don't need every meal to be spicy, nor to I think that the only flavorful meals are spicy meals. My point is exclusively with chili peppers, as the spice increases so does the flavor. I didn't grow up eating spicy food, and my experience has been that as my spice tolerance has grown overtime I have found access to increasingly wonderful flavors that are simply not present at lower spice levels.
    - bb88 3y ago
      That's interesting, I am curious if it's the capsaicin itself you're tasting directly. I know I've had hot sauces that were just heat without any kind of real flavor. It's not that I couldn't taste it. I could, I just didn't want any more of it.
      - marklubi 3y ago
        Capsaicin itself is boring. Frankly, I think it tastes rather metallic. Hot sauces that add it to boost their "spiciness" ratings taste awful as a result. The flavor of it stands out, and not in a good way
        thatcat 3y ago
        Capsaicin is a terpene and probably enhances other terpenes. The metal taste of pure capsaicin is probably from extraction process
      - theultdev 3y ago
        I don't think so, ghost peppers have a very rich flavor to me. Habaneros have a sweet flavor that accompany their spice. Serranos have a very distinct flavor as well. Each pepper has a flavor that comes with the spice, and yeah the more spicy the pepper they more rich the flavor generally.
- varelse 3y ago
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- silisili 3y ago
  It certainly trends that way, but I'm not sure it's a sure correlation. Hatch chiles are flavorful, but not really spicy. Scotch Bonnets are probably among the most flavorful, while I find the much hotter Ghost pepper not to taste like much.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
    Yeah I think this logic only holds true for individual peppers within one species (or batches of peppers, or even regional variants of peppers). The hotter ones also have more flavor. If you're comparing two different species of plant though I think all bets are off. If a correlation exists here it's very loose.
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  Habaneros taste like pineapple to me. They're absolutely delicious. ...for 30 seconds, and then I 1. Wish I was dead 2. Ask for another
- karim79 3y ago
  > As someone with a fairly high spice tolerance, I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor. I think anyone coming from a culture that eats spicy food will agree. I couldn't agree more. I grow a variety of chili plants on my balcony each year, from the Jalapeno (red and green) all the way to the Morugas and the Bhut Jolokias, with some varieties in between such as Chiltepins and Scotch Bonnet peppers. I think the Habanero is my go-to for most dishes - they're hot enough without being as insanely hot as the ones at the upper end of the scoville scale. That being said, I've enough experience now to know how much of which to put in each dish, and my freezer is full off pods from previous harvests. I can't cook without chilis, garlic and onions. Nor can I sleep when either of those ingredients are missing. I get cold sweats just imagining that the next pandemic or apocalypse might be around the corner and I'm ill-prepared in terms of the three essential ingredients for surviving comfortably.
  - algorias 3y ago
    I cultivate all three of those on my balcony. They are all extremely forgiving plants.
    - fuzztester 3y ago
      Chillies are easy to grow and produce a lot of fruit. Fun.
  - konfusinomicon 3y ago
    habanero garlic onion is the holiest of the trinities. throw in some cayanne and its so good the gods will favor your well being over most
- SantalBlush 3y ago
  In my opinion, habaneros have the best flavor out of any chili. Once you get hotter than that, they don't really get more flavorful. I've tasted Carolina Reapers a few times, and they just had this grassy vibe that wasn't very appealing. The very hot ones don't seem bred for flavor, just record-breaking heat.
  - ekidd 3y ago
    Habaneros and Scotch Bonnets can have absolutely amazing pepper flavor: sweet, fruity and aromatic. The bell peppers I've had weren't even close. Alas, I don't maintain the heat tolerance to eat them.
    - SantalBlush 3y ago
      +1. I almost mentioned Scotch bonnets, too. They're another excellent chili.
- Glyptodon 3y ago
  I don't think the correlation exists so much as it's been created by co-selection in many varieties. Consider many of the smaller, more ornamental, chile varieties: they're often quite spicy, but lack good flavor because they have an almost grassy solvent note in the background of their flavor profile. That said, I get the hiccups (involuntary) when spice level exceeds a certain threshold, so I'd love if the flavor could be improved while keeping the spice level below my hiccup threshold.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor Capsaicin is a preservative [1]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34751073/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34751073/
dheera 3y ago
I really wish we could have a habanero that is 1/4 as spicy. I LOVE the flavor of habaneros but their spiciness prevents me from putting too much. That said on the flavor/spiciness scale a lot of the Chinese varieties are excellent. The chili peppers used in Sichuanese cuisine are actually not that spicy compared to habaneros or Thai chilis, which allows it to be possible to dump a bag full into a dish and it gives it a LOT of rich flavor.
- adriand 3y ago
  I was in Jamaica a couple of months ago and they use habanero peppers a lot and I was astonished by how much I loved the flavour. I never buy them because I always assumed they were too spicy but you don’t need much for great flavour. I also hear what you’re saying and I’d be tempted to agree, but I wonder if the flavour would be negatively affected by the reduction in heat.
- anthomtb 3y ago
  When using hot peppers I remove some of, or all, of the seeds and pith. You can greatly control the amount of heat this way since the seeds and pith have the most concentrated capsaicin. Maybe habanero is too potent for that strategy but it works well on jalapeno, serrano, and whatever they grow in Hatch, NM. (and it should be obvious but wear disposable gloves if you do this, unless you want the worst wank of your life).
  - bb88 3y ago
    I also remove the membrane on the flesh too. Capsaicin dissolves in alcohol, so I tend to wipe everything down with 70% IPA minimum with a paper towel before sending it into the dish washer.
    - coffeebeqn 3y ago
      70% IPA? That’s a serious beer
      - 3y ago
aegypti 3y ago
The gist of that article is using the correct chiles for whatever your purpose is, ie mulatos over anchos for mole vs simply making everything weaker and accepting less heat overall. Very, very neat talk though
bsder 3y ago
> Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Then buy a poblano instead of a jalapeño and leave the jalapeños alone? The problem isn't just that they have less heat. Anything which becomes "industrial" loses all of the characteristics that "industrial" doesn't select for. This includes spice, flavor, juiciness, nutrition, scent, etc.
giantg2 3y ago
I don't know, I don't find jalapeños to be all that flavorful. Sure, adding some add some spice and some flavor. But it seems both are just mild.
mkoubaa 3y ago
I've never smoked. If my first time was with the most expensive Cuban cigar, all I will feel is the smoke , I'll cough, and I won't enjoy it. When you build up tolerance for spice, you are in a position to enjoy the beautiful and little known flavors that hot chiles offer
- sitzkrieg 3y ago
  this is the way. ideally building up your spice ferocity with real peppers. dont get me wrong i did my time w ridiculous extract sauces (even before hot ones craze, smile) but its just not the same
ortusdux 3y ago
One of the best unique beers I've ever had was a Jalapeno ale. The yeast had metabolized all the capsaicin, so there was zero spice. The Jalapeno flavor was crisp and clean, and you could taste a depth of flavor that was normally overshadowed by the heat. It made me appreciate peppers more now that I knew what to taste for. I've been meaning to try and recreate it and then work my way through various peppers/chilies.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Wait, does yeast break down capsaicin? That doesn’t make sense to me since I make a lot of extremely spicy fermented, hot sauces, and they don’t lose their heat.
  - scns 3y ago
    With water and salt? That should be lactic acid fermentation by bacteria, no?
    - huytersd 3y ago
      Could be, it is open air for atleast an hour or two so it could be either, especially since I faintly smell alcohol sometimes. Does adding salt always mean lacto bacillus?
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    I don't buy it either. I've had tons of chile beers and they are typically spicy. I once made a habanero stout and that thing was undrinkably spicy for years.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  There was a habanero watermelon beer out of NZ that was pretty good. Real crisp, cool, watermelon flavor up front, pretty fruity in the middle... then the heat hits. You want to cool it down then you take another sip and it repeats.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ska 3y ago
> Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Two problems with this idea as applies to the article. First, it's hard to separate the two in breeding (many of the most flavorful chiles, far more so than jalepenos, are pretty hot). Second, industrial production optimizing for a lot of things: shipability, stability, shelf life, consistent size/appearance, in this case consistent capsicum ... most of these are considered more important than flavor according to revealed preference. Consider the current "standard tomato”. Round, dense, deep red, mostly flavorless. So unfortunately you're likely to end up with a jalapeno that is more consistent, less hot, but also less flavorful - but looks good in the grocery.
dekhn 3y ago
I occasionally go through OCD cooking phases and I went through one after reading the cook book "Sauces" (https://www.amazon.com/Sauces-Classical-Contemporary-Sauce-Making/dp/0470194960 https://www.amazon.com/Sauces-Classical-Contemporary-Sauce-M...). There's a throwaway sentence in the book that refers to chiles, and the sauces made with them ("salsa" means sauce) not being fully appreciated. This led me down the path of "fruit purees as salsa" and I spent a fair amount of time working with chiles and regular peppers. I definitely agree, I find that once the spiciness exceeds some level I simply don't enjoy the flavor the food. But when the spiciness is below that threshold, I absolutely love the flavor of pureed peppers. You can definitely tell all the different chiles apart, some are quite earthy, others are sweet fruits (habanero), other taste like raisins to me (pasilla).
huytersd 3y ago
Flavor is heat (mostly) when it comes to peppers.

lupusreal 3y ago

The way commercially packaged jalapenos are now is closer to no-heat than low heat. You could swap them with chopped bell peppers and most people probably wouldn't notice the difference (and many like my father would still complain that the dish is too spicy.) Particularly the chopped and canned/jarred jalapenos; I used to buy them for pizzas and chilis but they're just not worth it anymore.

PheonixPharts 3y ago

> I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. As someone with a fairly high spice tolerance, I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor. I think anyone coming from a culture that eats spicy food will agree. I had a batch of habaneros I grew last summer that were both the most spicy habaneros I've had, and by far the most flavorful. I've also had some very tasty ghost peppers (when used in moderation). Outside of peppers that are inherently not spicy, such as pablanos, heat and flavor seem to coincide. All of the most flavorful chili dishes I've had in my life have all been quite spicy, and I can't recall any mild chili dishes I've had with nearly the same punch. The only time I've seen heat and flavor not connected is in terrible hot sauces which aim to be shockingly spices that make use of capsaicin extract.

mathgeek 3y ago
As someone who also prefers the taste that comes along with spice, best reasoning I have heard is folks who don’t like spice cannot even taste the flavor that comes with it, so they associate milder peppers as tasting better. I.e. when you are screaming for water you don’t stop to consider the flavor (or you may not even taste it at all as your brain tells you to go into flight mode).
- plorkyeran 3y ago
  Yep, I literally can't taste food if it's past a certain level of spiciness. I have had hot sauces that friends insisted were incredibly distinctive but I could not even tell apart.
- trealira 3y ago
  Yes, I think you're right. When I eat something that's too spicy for me, I can't taste anything. My tongue is numb and feels like it's burning. It doesn't even have to get to the level of screaming for water; I can power through eating it even if it's spicy enough to where my tongue feels numb, but it's not pleasant, and I don't taste anything. I wouldn't even say that I "don't like spice," as spicy food can taste good, but if it gets too spicy I can't taste anything.
  - pests 3y ago
    Yep, for me less numb just every further bite of food feels like eating fire.
squokko 3y ago
Your palate has been desensitized and can only taste flavor with heat. Spend 2 months with zero capsaicin and it will reset.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I enjoy plenty of non-spicy foods, and don't need every meal to be spicy, nor to I think that the only flavorful meals are spicy meals. My point is exclusively with chili peppers, as the spice increases so does the flavor. I didn't grow up eating spicy food, and my experience has been that as my spice tolerance has grown overtime I have found access to increasingly wonderful flavors that are simply not present at lower spice levels.
  - bb88 3y ago
    That's interesting, I am curious if it's the capsaicin itself you're tasting directly. I know I've had hot sauces that were just heat without any kind of real flavor. It's not that I couldn't taste it. I could, I just didn't want any more of it.
    - marklubi 3y ago
      Capsaicin itself is boring. Frankly, I think it tastes rather metallic. Hot sauces that add it to boost their "spiciness" ratings taste awful as a result. The flavor of it stands out, and not in a good way
      - thatcat 3y ago
        Capsaicin is a terpene and probably enhances other terpenes. The metal taste of pure capsaicin is probably from extraction process
    - theultdev 3y ago
      I don't think so, ghost peppers have a very rich flavor to me. Habaneros have a sweet flavor that accompany their spice. Serranos have a very distinct flavor as well. Each pepper has a flavor that comes with the spice, and yeah the more spicy the pepper they more rich the flavor generally.
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
silisili 3y ago
It certainly trends that way, but I'm not sure it's a sure correlation. Hatch chiles are flavorful, but not really spicy. Scotch Bonnets are probably among the most flavorful, while I find the much hotter Ghost pepper not to taste like much.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  Yeah I think this logic only holds true for individual peppers within one species (or batches of peppers, or even regional variants of peppers). The hotter ones also have more flavor. If you're comparing two different species of plant though I think all bets are off. If a correlation exists here it's very loose.
dreamcompiler 3y ago
Habaneros taste like pineapple to me. They're absolutely delicious. ...for 30 seconds, and then I 1. Wish I was dead 2. Ask for another
karim79 3y ago
> As someone with a fairly high spice tolerance, I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor. I think anyone coming from a culture that eats spicy food will agree. I couldn't agree more. I grow a variety of chili plants on my balcony each year, from the Jalapeno (red and green) all the way to the Morugas and the Bhut Jolokias, with some varieties in between such as Chiltepins and Scotch Bonnet peppers. I think the Habanero is my go-to for most dishes - they're hot enough without being as insanely hot as the ones at the upper end of the scoville scale. That being said, I've enough experience now to know how much of which to put in each dish, and my freezer is full off pods from previous harvests. I can't cook without chilis, garlic and onions. Nor can I sleep when either of those ingredients are missing. I get cold sweats just imagining that the next pandemic or apocalypse might be around the corner and I'm ill-prepared in terms of the three essential ingredients for surviving comfortably.
- algorias 3y ago
  I cultivate all three of those on my balcony. They are all extremely forgiving plants.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    Chillies are easy to grow and produce a lot of fruit. Fun.
- konfusinomicon 3y ago
  habanero garlic onion is the holiest of the trinities. throw in some cayanne and its so good the gods will favor your well being over most
SantalBlush 3y ago
In my opinion, habaneros have the best flavor out of any chili. Once you get hotter than that, they don't really get more flavorful. I've tasted Carolina Reapers a few times, and they just had this grassy vibe that wasn't very appealing. The very hot ones don't seem bred for flavor, just record-breaking heat.
- ekidd 3y ago
  Habaneros and Scotch Bonnets can have absolutely amazing pepper flavor: sweet, fruity and aromatic. The bell peppers I've had weren't even close. Alas, I don't maintain the heat tolerance to eat them.
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    +1. I almost mentioned Scotch bonnets, too. They're another excellent chili.
Glyptodon 3y ago
I don't think the correlation exists so much as it's been created by co-selection in many varieties. Consider many of the smaller, more ornamental, chile varieties: they're often quite spicy, but lack good flavor because they have an almost grassy solvent note in the background of their flavor profile. That said, I get the hiccups (involuntary) when spice level exceeds a certain threshold, so I'd love if the flavor could be improved while keeping the spice level below my hiccup threshold.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> I've found a strong correlation between heat and flavor Capsaicin is a preservative [1]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34751073/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34751073/

dheera 3y ago

I really wish we could have a habanero that is 1/4 as spicy. I LOVE the flavor of habaneros but their spiciness prevents me from putting too much. That said on the flavor/spiciness scale a lot of the Chinese varieties are excellent. The chili peppers used in Sichuanese cuisine are actually not that spicy compared to habaneros or Thai chilis, which allows it to be possible to dump a bag full into a dish and it gives it a LOT of rich flavor.

adriand 3y ago
I was in Jamaica a couple of months ago and they use habanero peppers a lot and I was astonished by how much I loved the flavour. I never buy them because I always assumed they were too spicy but you don’t need much for great flavour. I also hear what you’re saying and I’d be tempted to agree, but I wonder if the flavour would be negatively affected by the reduction in heat.
anthomtb 3y ago
When using hot peppers I remove some of, or all, of the seeds and pith. You can greatly control the amount of heat this way since the seeds and pith have the most concentrated capsaicin. Maybe habanero is too potent for that strategy but it works well on jalapeno, serrano, and whatever they grow in Hatch, NM. (and it should be obvious but wear disposable gloves if you do this, unless you want the worst wank of your life).
- bb88 3y ago
  I also remove the membrane on the flesh too. Capsaicin dissolves in alcohol, so I tend to wipe everything down with 70% IPA minimum with a paper towel before sending it into the dish washer.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    70% IPA? That’s a serious beer
    - 3y ago

aegypti 3y ago

The gist of that article is using the correct chiles for whatever your purpose is, ie mulatos over anchos for mole vs simply making everything weaker and accepting less heat overall. Very, very neat talk though

bsder 3y ago

> Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Then buy a poblano instead of a jalapeño and leave the jalapeños alone? The problem isn't just that they have less heat. Anything which becomes "industrial" loses all of the characteristics that "industrial" doesn't select for. This includes spice, flavor, juiciness, nutrition, scent, etc.

giantg2 3y ago

I don't know, I don't find jalapeños to be all that flavorful. Sure, adding some add some spice and some flavor. But it seems both are just mild.

mkoubaa 3y ago

I've never smoked. If my first time was with the most expensive Cuban cigar, all I will feel is the smoke , I'll cough, and I won't enjoy it. When you build up tolerance for spice, you are in a position to enjoy the beautiful and little known flavors that hot chiles offer

sitzkrieg 3y ago
this is the way. ideally building up your spice ferocity with real peppers. dont get me wrong i did my time w ridiculous extract sauces (even before hot ones craze, smile) but its just not the same

ortusdux 3y ago

One of the best unique beers I've ever had was a Jalapeno ale. The yeast had metabolized all the capsaicin, so there was zero spice. The Jalapeno flavor was crisp and clean, and you could taste a depth of flavor that was normally overshadowed by the heat. It made me appreciate peppers more now that I knew what to taste for. I've been meaning to try and recreate it and then work my way through various peppers/chilies.

huytersd 3y ago
Wait, does yeast break down capsaicin? That doesn’t make sense to me since I make a lot of extremely spicy fermented, hot sauces, and they don’t lose their heat.
- scns 3y ago
  With water and salt? That should be lactic acid fermentation by bacteria, no?
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Could be, it is open air for atleast an hour or two so it could be either, especially since I faintly smell alcohol sometimes. Does adding salt always mean lacto bacillus?
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  I don't buy it either. I've had tons of chile beers and they are typically spicy. I once made a habanero stout and that thing was undrinkably spicy for years.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
There was a habanero watermelon beer out of NZ that was pretty good. Real crisp, cool, watermelon flavor up front, pretty fruity in the middle... then the heat hits. You want to cool it down then you take another sip and it repeats.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ska 3y ago

> Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice. Two problems with this idea as applies to the article. First, it's hard to separate the two in breeding (many of the most flavorful chiles, far more so than jalepenos, are pretty hot). Second, industrial production optimizing for a lot of things: shipability, stability, shelf life, consistent size/appearance, in this case consistent capsicum ... most of these are considered more important than flavor according to revealed preference. Consider the current "standard tomato”. Round, dense, deep red, mostly flavorless. So unfortunately you're likely to end up with a jalapeno that is more consistent, less hot, but also less flavorful - but looks good in the grocery.

dekhn 3y ago

I occasionally go through OCD cooking phases and I went through one after reading the cook book "Sauces" (https://www.amazon.com/Sauces-Classical-Contemporary-Sauce-Making/dp/0470194960 https://www.amazon.com/Sauces-Classical-Contemporary-Sauce-M...). There's a throwaway sentence in the book that refers to chiles, and the sauces made with them ("salsa" means sauce) not being fully appreciated. This led me down the path of "fruit purees as salsa" and I spent a fair amount of time working with chiles and regular peppers. I definitely agree, I find that once the spiciness exceeds some level I simply don't enjoy the flavor the food. But when the spiciness is below that threshold, I absolutely love the flavor of pureed peppers. You can definitely tell all the different chiles apart, some are quite earthy, others are sweet fruits (habanero), other taste like raisins to me (pasilla).

huytersd 3y ago

Flavor is heat (mostly) when it comes to peppers.