6 ms·

You also forgot stomping on all of his engineers and designers and demanding an untenable design for the cyber truck. All of that wasted time and effort could’

by tw04 3y ago

You also forgot stomping on all of his engineers and designers and demanding an untenable design for the cyber truck. All of that wasted time and effort could’ve been spent on a smaller EV vs a truck that’s going to struggle to gain any market share outside of Tesla loyalists.

mavhc 3y ago
Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap batteries
- SR2Z 3y ago
  No, that's not it. I refuse to buy a new Tesla because of some of the less user friendly (and IMO should be illegal) cost cutting measures: - Horrible QA (https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-tesla-gigacastings.662/ https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-...) - Extremely customer-hostile support strategies (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-customers-sue-firm-over-grossly-exaggerated-ev-range/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust...) - Absurd cost-cutting measures/temporary bouts of insanity that cripple the UX of their cars: - Why does the Model 3/Y not have steering wheel stalks!? - Why did they try to offer the Model S with only a (bad) yoke!? - Why is there no HUD/gauge cluster on the Model 3/Y!? I won't even get into just how ugly I (and anecdotally, many of my friends) find the Cybertruck; have you SEEN videos of people trying to actually use it as a truck and it completely failing to function offroad? All of this stuff is directly attributable to Elon Musk. He's demanding a 25% stake in the company from his board - the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. Shareholders, at this point, should kick this guy out of Tesla and leave him to his true passions: shitposting on Twitter and SpaceX.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    I agree, not only have they stopped making new sane cars, but they're actively making their existing cars worse! * no indicator stalks * no forward/reverse control * apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) It very much reminds me of Apple's backwards steps with magsafe, touchbar and the keyboard. Maybe they'll come to their senses but I dunno...
    - linsomniac 3y ago
      >* apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) My Dec 2016 Model S has a "working" automatic rain sensor, it's just not as good as others I've seen. My '04 Audi A8 had a sensor so good that the first time it turned on I didn't know why, but then as I drove under some street lights I realized it had detected some really fine mist. On the other hand, part of the reason I switched from the Audi to the Tesla was that I had $10k in broken "toys" on the Audi (1 of 2 bluetooth radios, 2 doorhandle auto unlockers, leak in the air suspension, steering wheel adjustment motor, etc), and part of what I wanted in the Tesla was something less expensive maintenance wise. So making more do less (using the cameras for auto wipers) makes sense.
      - throwaway23305 3y ago
        My '13 Audi has significant problems with the rain sensor. It turns on when it shouldn't, doesn't turn off when it should, and when I first start the car and it's already raining I have to turn the wipers off and on. The best rain sensor I had was in my old Ford Mondeo '04.
      - nikau 3y ago
        Likelihood of air suspension failure approaches 100% regardless of brand. I'd suspect the number of traditional rain sensor failures can probably be counted on one hand. Tesla replace robust almost zero failure rate parts for cost only.
        linsomniac 3y ago
        Sure, the rain sensor might have near zero failures. I would think the rain sensor probably has failure rates on the order of bluetooth radio failure rates, but I had one of those fail. But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. More importantly though, the rain sensor is just one of many, many toys the Audi had. Failure rates are multiplicative, so if you can remove 50% of your parts, you eliminate a lot of points of failure, plus a ton of extra wiring and electrical problems, plus the whole problem of integration.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. It was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it. The pay package was approved by Tesla's non-Musk general shareholders.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Thrown out by a judge in the most corpo state on the country. It was so embarrassingly badly handled they couldn't even rubber stamp it.
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        It was handled fine. If it had been badly handled, it would have been thrown out on those grounds. Instead, the grounds were "there is no reason for Elon Musk to be paid this much".
        kasey_junk 3y ago
        No it really wasn’t. Delaware goes out of its way to trust corporate boards to make business decisions, especially around compensation. In this case Tesla screwed up at least 3 different standards that are generally biased towards the company against shareholders. Only the last of those 3 standards has anything to do with relative compensation. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-musk-is-overpaid?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-m...
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it It was thrown out for technical but super legal reasons stemming from the Board’s lack of independence. Delaware judges don’t get to review pay packages approved by competently-run Boards.
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  The batteries could be imported from China. Or maybe the whole car could be imported. You could have a cheap EV in America with a stroke of a pen. Thats kind of the point of the article. I mean maybe not on purpose.
  - zie 3y ago
    It would have to be significantly cheaper than the credit. That might be very hard to come by. You also have to accept that many people will go out of their way for tax credits, even if they are literally losing money to get it.
dangus 3y ago
I’m not one to be bullish on Tesla under Elon Musk but I don’t see how the Cybertruck was a waste considering that it’s squarely placed in the most popular and profitable segment of the automobile market in North America. It’s almost dimensionally identical to the F-150 and the masculine “look at me” cyberpunk appearance is 100% in line with basically everything about the big three automakers’ trucks’ demographics. The only thing BYD can do differently is eat up unprofitable markets like the $20,000 econobox EV.
- Draiken 3y ago
  BYD will have dominated the world before Tesla does anything at this rate. Here in Brazil, EVs basically didn't exist. Only very few Prius were seen around, and I mean very few. Now, BYD showed up and everywhere you go you see one. Had Tesla been there, the same would have happened. But they chose to not even try (or weren't competent enough to do it). BYD is doing the same in many other countries. Pretty soon I can see BYD being the main provider of EVs in multiple countries. Tesla had years of advantage and totally missed the opportunity to expand into those markets craving EVs.
  - themgt 3y ago
    I agree with most of this, but it's worth noting BYD is only 35% of China's auto market. Tesla is #2 at 8%. All the rest are other Chinese companies. People in this thread are focusing a lot of ire at Tesla, but why do none of the other US, European, Japanese or South Korean auto makers make a showing? Why are they all behind not just BYD and Tesla but a bunch of other Chinese companies most people have never heard of? It's easy to blame Elon and his dumb tweets, but China is eating everyone's lunch in EVs, Tesla is notable solely for being in the game and losing while effectively no other auto makers are even in the game. Literally most of the top 10 EV companies in China are doing more EV sales solely in China than the global EV sales of basically any other company on earth except Tesla (VW gets a big asterisk). A truly incredible failure across "the west".
    - Draiken 3y ago
      Definitely agree that it's not just Tesla that failed, but I think the focus on them is because they kind of kick-started most of it. When you're 10 laps ahead and you still manage to lose the lead, you're gonna be the main story. The other auto makers don't want to switch to EVs (despite the typical PR showing around it). They were not ready for it and are many years behind. They are doing this mostly out of panic because after Tesla, it's clear that there is a market and people actually want them. Now governments are also starting to force transitions (although force is doing a lot of work here given the time frames). What surprised me the most is BYD being sold here in Brazil, and other developing countries, when there is basically no charging network. Goes to show how the profile of consumers is different. People in the US still complain about range like they will actually travel from NY to LA, meanwhile people here are buying BYD for the luxury/status/aesthetic of it without even giving a second though about range. My previous prediction was that it would be similar to the US where we'd only have adoption after there was progress in the charging front, but I was thoroughly wrong. People in these countries are more than happy to "sacrifice" in that front for a very expensive good looking car. It's more about the status than anything else since we don't have EV subsidies or anything similar to make it advantageous financially (at least to my knowledge).

by tw04 3y ago

mavhc 3y ago

Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap batteries

SR2Z 3y ago
No, that's not it. I refuse to buy a new Tesla because of some of the less user friendly (and IMO should be illegal) cost cutting measures: - Horrible QA (https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-tesla-gigacastings.662/ https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-developing-in-...) - Extremely customer-hostile support strategies (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-customers-sue-firm-over-grossly-exaggerated-ev-range/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust...) - Absurd cost-cutting measures/temporary bouts of insanity that cripple the UX of their cars: - Why does the Model 3/Y not have steering wheel stalks!? - Why did they try to offer the Model S with only a (bad) yoke!? - Why is there no HUD/gauge cluster on the Model 3/Y!? I won't even get into just how ugly I (and anecdotally, many of my friends) find the Cybertruck; have you SEEN videos of people trying to actually use it as a truck and it completely failing to function offroad? All of this stuff is directly attributable to Elon Musk. He's demanding a 25% stake in the company from his board - the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. Shareholders, at this point, should kick this guy out of Tesla and leave him to his true passions: shitposting on Twitter and SpaceX.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  I agree, not only have they stopped making new sane cars, but they're actively making their existing cars worse! * no indicator stalks * no forward/reverse control * apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) It very much reminds me of Apple's backwards steps with magsafe, touchbar and the keyboard. Maybe they'll come to their senses but I dunno...
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    >* apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist (I think that's always been true; I just learned about it) My Dec 2016 Model S has a "working" automatic rain sensor, it's just not as good as others I've seen. My '04 Audi A8 had a sensor so good that the first time it turned on I didn't know why, but then as I drove under some street lights I realized it had detected some really fine mist. On the other hand, part of the reason I switched from the Audi to the Tesla was that I had $10k in broken "toys" on the Audi (1 of 2 bluetooth radios, 2 doorhandle auto unlockers, leak in the air suspension, steering wheel adjustment motor, etc), and part of what I wanted in the Tesla was something less expensive maintenance wise. So making more do less (using the cameras for auto wipers) makes sense.
    - throwaway23305 3y ago
      My '13 Audi has significant problems with the rain sensor. It turns on when it shouldn't, doesn't turn off when it should, and when I first start the car and it's already raining I have to turn the wipers off and on. The best rain sensor I had was in my old Ford Mondeo '04.
    - nikau 3y ago
      Likelihood of air suspension failure approaches 100% regardless of brand. I'd suspect the number of traditional rain sensor failures can probably be counted on one hand. Tesla replace robust almost zero failure rate parts for cost only.
      - linsomniac 3y ago
        Sure, the rain sensor might have near zero failures. I would think the rain sensor probably has failure rates on the order of bluetooth radio failure rates, but I had one of those fail. But what has truly 0 failures is to eliminate the rain sensor entirely. More importantly though, the rain sensor is just one of many, many toys the Audi had. Failure rates are multiplicative, so if you can remove 50% of your parts, you eliminate a lot of points of failure, plus a ton of extra wiring and electrical problems, plus the whole problem of integration.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out. It was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it. The pay package was approved by Tesla's non-Musk general shareholders.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Thrown out by a judge in the most corpo state on the country. It was so embarrassingly badly handled they couldn't even rubber stamp it.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      It was handled fine. If it had been badly handled, it would have been thrown out on those grounds. Instead, the grounds were "there is no reason for Elon Musk to be paid this much".
      - kasey_junk 3y ago
        No it really wasn’t. Delaware goes out of its way to trust corporate boards to make business decisions, especially around compensation. In this case Tesla screwed up at least 3 different standards that are generally biased towards the company against shareholders. Only the last of those 3 standards has anything to do with relative compensation. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-musk-is-overpaid?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-31/elon-m...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge didn't like it It was thrown out for technical but super legal reasons stemming from the Board’s lack of independence. Delaware judges don’t get to review pay packages approved by competently-run Boards.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
doctorpangloss 3y ago
The batteries could be imported from China. Or maybe the whole car could be imported. You could have a cheap EV in America with a stroke of a pen. Thats kind of the point of the article. I mean maybe not on purpose.
- zie 3y ago
  It would have to be significantly cheaper than the credit. That might be very hard to come by. You also have to accept that many people will go out of their way for tax credits, even if they are literally losing money to get it.

dangus 3y ago

I’m not one to be bullish on Tesla under Elon Musk but I don’t see how the Cybertruck was a waste considering that it’s squarely placed in the most popular and profitable segment of the automobile market in North America. It’s almost dimensionally identical to the F-150 and the masculine “look at me” cyberpunk appearance is 100% in line with basically everything about the big three automakers’ trucks’ demographics. The only thing BYD can do differently is eat up unprofitable markets like the $20,000 econobox EV.

Draiken 3y ago
BYD will have dominated the world before Tesla does anything at this rate. Here in Brazil, EVs basically didn't exist. Only very few Prius were seen around, and I mean very few. Now, BYD showed up and everywhere you go you see one. Had Tesla been there, the same would have happened. But they chose to not even try (or weren't competent enough to do it). BYD is doing the same in many other countries. Pretty soon I can see BYD being the main provider of EVs in multiple countries. Tesla had years of advantage and totally missed the opportunity to expand into those markets craving EVs.
- themgt 3y ago
  I agree with most of this, but it's worth noting BYD is only 35% of China's auto market. Tesla is #2 at 8%. All the rest are other Chinese companies. People in this thread are focusing a lot of ire at Tesla, but why do none of the other US, European, Japanese or South Korean auto makers make a showing? Why are they all behind not just BYD and Tesla but a bunch of other Chinese companies most people have never heard of? It's easy to blame Elon and his dumb tweets, but China is eating everyone's lunch in EVs, Tesla is notable solely for being in the game and losing while effectively no other auto makers are even in the game. Literally most of the top 10 EV companies in China are doing more EV sales solely in China than the global EV sales of basically any other company on earth except Tesla (VW gets a big asterisk). A truly incredible failure across "the west".
  - Draiken 3y ago
    Definitely agree that it's not just Tesla that failed, but I think the focus on them is because they kind of kick-started most of it. When you're 10 laps ahead and you still manage to lose the lead, you're gonna be the main story. The other auto makers don't want to switch to EVs (despite the typical PR showing around it). They were not ready for it and are many years behind. They are doing this mostly out of panic because after Tesla, it's clear that there is a market and people actually want them. Now governments are also starting to force transitions (although force is doing a lot of work here given the time frames). What surprised me the most is BYD being sold here in Brazil, and other developing countries, when there is basically no charging network. Goes to show how the profile of consumers is different. People in the US still complain about range like they will actually travel from NY to LA, meanwhile people here are buying BYD for the luxury/status/aesthetic of it without even giving a second though about range. My previous prediction was that it would be similar to the US where we'd only have adoption after there was progress in the charging front, but I was thoroughly wrong. People in these countries are more than happy to "sacrifice" in that front for a very expensive good looking car. It's more about the status than anything else since we don't have EV subsidies or anything similar to make it advantageous financially (at least to my knowledge).