5 ms·

> Talk to your ICs, and — taking care to make sure they understand that you want honest feedback and that they are safe to offer it — ask them what problems you

by cebert 3y ago

> Talk to your ICs, and — taking care to make sure they understand that you want honest feedback and that they are safe to offer it — ask them what problems your organization has. Can you reasonably expect for there to be a true “safe space” in a professional setting? It’s always good to be candid and transparent, but I’d never assume I’m in a complete safe space no matter which organization I am in.

macintux 3y ago
I used to believe that, but no, at this point in my career I have no confidence that anything I say won't be used against me in the future, or misconstrued in some embarrassing way.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  So knowing that, can you still be candid? I guess I make a habit of it, and therefore just do not particularly care about any given instance.
  - OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
    Congratulations on being instantly employable and/or having go-to-hell money.
justin_oaks 3y ago
Different bosses will react differently. There are bosses who get violently angry and fire people. Nobody will trust that boss with honest feedback... ever. There are the bosses who are simply dismissive of what their staff is already telling them. In that case, the boss is having this meeting to tell his staff "I ignored and forgot everything you told me previously, but this time will be different. I'm prepared to listen this time." That boss may be able to make good on the strategy in the article.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Often the first contractor to come along ends up telling the boss everything that his own employees have been complaining about for years, and either he can't hear it, or they stopped saying it because it gets them nowhere. Few people continually remind you of the places where you are disappointing them. They've said it a dozen times, they know it's pointless to say it again. Which complicates things because now what you think they are upset with you about are either entirely not the real reasons, or are just proxies for them. But you already fucked up that channel of communication.
pdonis 3y ago
> Can you reasonably expect for there to be a true “safe space” in a professional setting? My experience has generally been that, even if a leadership level person is being sincere when they say they want honest feedback and it is safe to offer it, the junior level person they are meeting with doesn't believe it. (An economist would call this an example of the "market for lemons" problem.) That is a big reason why outside consultants can break the ice on something like this, as the article describes, where internal conversations can't: the consultant can credibly promise that honest feedback won't adversely affect the speaker (the obvious way to do that is to not attribute anything to any particular person when the consultant reports to leadership), so they have a shot at actually getting the honest feedback that is needed to get to a solution to the problem.
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  The consultant is being paid by management. S/he is beholden to them. If anything can be traced back to a group or individual, it will be, and it won't be pleasant for anyone who believed the request for honest feedback.
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    I was going to say, it is well accepted that McKinsey and related are nothing more than a way for management to launder unpopular decisions.
    - operatingthetan 3y ago
      That is only one aspect of consulting, so you are over-generalizing.
      - danaris 3y ago
        That's true—but so is pdonis in their description of consultants.
  - pdonis 3y ago
refulgentis 3y ago
I believed that strongly, to the point that it was borderline immoral to not share. Then I sold the startup and worked at Google for 6 years. 1 out of 4 managers hit the bar that I figured would be a floor, you could have a constructive conversation with them and they'd help you if something was up.
- hinkley 3y ago
  I don't think anything has hurt me as much emotionally in my career as working at a really great place as my first job, setting my expectations for the next ten years of my career to be anything like that, and then get curb stomped over and over again by mediocrity that thought it was objectivity or responsibility. Trying to mold people who did not want to be molded resulted in a lot of Pyrrhic victories.
  - geraldhh 3y ago
    i too remember my first company very fondly and wonder if there is some cognitive bias at play
    - JR1427 3y ago
      I'm still at my first company after switching career in to development. It's nice here, and the people including management are great. But I feel I should probably move on for the sake of my career progression, but I'm scared to leave and find myself somewhere worse.
      - EchoChamberMan 3y ago
        Be very very sure of what this supposed "career progression" is before you leave something you enjoy.
        hinkley 3y ago
        If I hadn't moved to a new town, and if they hadn't also, I would have tracked down some of my old coworkers and asked them very nicely for a job. But we all 'graduated' and flew away.
dilyevsky 3y ago
Ime it never hurts to share your thoughts candidly with the leadership as long as your thoughts are what leadership wants to hear
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  Straight outta Broadway! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmuuDbFy1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmuuDbFy1Q
- hinkley 3y ago
  Which leadership? I've had one favorite boss get fired, and at least two leave (forced out/encouraged to go) because they agreed with us but their peers or boss didn't. Agreeing with them is fine until it isn't, and then you're a collaborator. And then there's agreeing with the VP or CTO, but the people between you don't, and try to suppress your enthusiasm. If you go over their heads it better be to get transferred to another team instead of trying to change things in place, because now you're squeezing them and they will retaliate.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    > And then there's agreeing with the VP or CTO, but the people between you don't heh, been there. Sometimes I feel sorry for those that high up, especially the ones that DO mostly see the problems but are powerless to do much because of all the shit between them and the solution. The higher up you go the more power you have but the less control you have. That seems paradoxical but consider the old adage 'if you want something done right, do it yourself'. You may have the power to hire and fire but have little control over the day-to-day decisions that matter.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      When your boss hears but the CTO doesn't, sometimes you can get your business partners to tell their boss to tell your boss that they need <solution> from your product, at which point it rolls back downhill to you.
    - 3y ago
refurb 3y ago
This has always been my problem with "psychological safety". Politics is a unavoidable consequence of large organizations and there can be no "safe spaces" where politics exists. It's certainly possible to have it on a personal relationship basis - with coworkers or a boss, but broadly? Impossible. If someone wants to take you down, then your "honesty" is going to be used against you.
jonmoore 3y ago
I can be pretty cynical about corporate politics but that kind of consultant-IC interview is almost always safe. It’s wildly against the consultant’s interests to cause serious conflict to break out and it’s easy to tone down inflammatory comments. Also, if the IC’s ideas are ones likely to rile up management the consultant is going to drop them. There are also potential upsides; if senior management is decent they will be glad that their employees have good suggestions and a good fraction of consultants will be glad to credit the ICs once management have bought in; ofc some will take all the credit themselves but that’s still a low-downside proposition.
scrapcode 3y ago
The problem is that generally for the IC the risk to the physiological, safety, and security isn't worth the reward of what they would gain by opening up to management even if it were genuine.

by cebert 3y ago

macintux 3y ago

I used to believe that, but no, at this point in my career I have no confidence that anything I say won't be used against me in the future, or misconstrued in some embarrassing way.

Aeolun 3y ago
So knowing that, can you still be candid? I guess I make a habit of it, and therefore just do not particularly care about any given instance.
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  Congratulations on being instantly employable and/or having go-to-hell money.

justin_oaks 3y ago

Different bosses will react differently. There are bosses who get violently angry and fire people. Nobody will trust that boss with honest feedback... ever. There are the bosses who are simply dismissive of what their staff is already telling them. In that case, the boss is having this meeting to tell his staff "I ignored and forgot everything you told me previously, but this time will be different. I'm prepared to listen this time." That boss may be able to make good on the strategy in the article.

hinkley 3y ago
Often the first contractor to come along ends up telling the boss everything that his own employees have been complaining about for years, and either he can't hear it, or they stopped saying it because it gets them nowhere. Few people continually remind you of the places where you are disappointing them. They've said it a dozen times, they know it's pointless to say it again. Which complicates things because now what you think they are upset with you about are either entirely not the real reasons, or are just proxies for them. But you already fucked up that channel of communication.

pdonis 3y ago

> Can you reasonably expect for there to be a true “safe space” in a professional setting? My experience has generally been that, even if a leadership level person is being sincere when they say they want honest feedback and it is safe to offer it, the junior level person they are meeting with doesn't believe it. (An economist would call this an example of the "market for lemons" problem.) That is a big reason why outside consultants can break the ice on something like this, as the article describes, where internal conversations can't: the consultant can credibly promise that honest feedback won't adversely affect the speaker (the obvious way to do that is to not attribute anything to any particular person when the consultant reports to leadership), so they have a shot at actually getting the honest feedback that is needed to get to a solution to the problem.

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
The consultant is being paid by management. S/he is beholden to them. If anything can be traced back to a group or individual, it will be, and it won't be pleasant for anyone who believed the request for honest feedback.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  I was going to say, it is well accepted that McKinsey and related are nothing more than a way for management to launder unpopular decisions.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    That is only one aspect of consulting, so you are over-generalizing.
    - danaris 3y ago
      That's true—but so is pdonis in their description of consultants.
- pdonis 3y ago

refulgentis 3y ago

I believed that strongly, to the point that it was borderline immoral to not share. Then I sold the startup and worked at Google for 6 years. 1 out of 4 managers hit the bar that I figured would be a floor, you could have a constructive conversation with them and they'd help you if something was up.

hinkley 3y ago
I don't think anything has hurt me as much emotionally in my career as working at a really great place as my first job, setting my expectations for the next ten years of my career to be anything like that, and then get curb stomped over and over again by mediocrity that thought it was objectivity or responsibility. Trying to mold people who did not want to be molded resulted in a lot of Pyrrhic victories.
- geraldhh 3y ago
  i too remember my first company very fondly and wonder if there is some cognitive bias at play
  - JR1427 3y ago
    I'm still at my first company after switching career in to development. It's nice here, and the people including management are great. But I feel I should probably move on for the sake of my career progression, but I'm scared to leave and find myself somewhere worse.
    - EchoChamberMan 3y ago
      Be very very sure of what this supposed "career progression" is before you leave something you enjoy.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        If I hadn't moved to a new town, and if they hadn't also, I would have tracked down some of my old coworkers and asked them very nicely for a job. But we all 'graduated' and flew away.

dilyevsky 3y ago

Ime it never hurts to share your thoughts candidly with the leadership as long as your thoughts are what leadership wants to hear

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
Straight outta Broadway! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmuuDbFy1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmuuDbFy1Q
hinkley 3y ago
Which leadership? I've had one favorite boss get fired, and at least two leave (forced out/encouraged to go) because they agreed with us but their peers or boss didn't. Agreeing with them is fine until it isn't, and then you're a collaborator. And then there's agreeing with the VP or CTO, but the people between you don't, and try to suppress your enthusiasm. If you go over their heads it better be to get transferred to another team instead of trying to change things in place, because now you're squeezing them and they will retaliate.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  > And then there's agreeing with the VP or CTO, but the people between you don't heh, been there. Sometimes I feel sorry for those that high up, especially the ones that DO mostly see the problems but are powerless to do much because of all the shit between them and the solution. The higher up you go the more power you have but the less control you have. That seems paradoxical but consider the old adage 'if you want something done right, do it yourself'. You may have the power to hire and fire but have little control over the day-to-day decisions that matter.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    When your boss hears but the CTO doesn't, sometimes you can get your business partners to tell their boss to tell your boss that they need <solution> from your product, at which point it rolls back downhill to you.
  - 3y ago

refurb 3y ago

This has always been my problem with "psychological safety". Politics is a unavoidable consequence of large organizations and there can be no "safe spaces" where politics exists. It's certainly possible to have it on a personal relationship basis - with coworkers or a boss, but broadly? Impossible. If someone wants to take you down, then your "honesty" is going to be used against you.

jonmoore 3y ago

I can be pretty cynical about corporate politics but that kind of consultant-IC interview is almost always safe. It’s wildly against the consultant’s interests to cause serious conflict to break out and it’s easy to tone down inflammatory comments. Also, if the IC’s ideas are ones likely to rile up management the consultant is going to drop them. There are also potential upsides; if senior management is decent they will be glad that their employees have good suggestions and a good fraction of consultants will be glad to credit the ICs once management have bought in; ofc some will take all the credit themselves but that’s still a low-downside proposition.

scrapcode 3y ago

The problem is that generally for the IC the risk to the physiological, safety, and security isn't worth the reward of what they would gain by opening up to management even if it were genuine.