12 ms·

The Golden Age of Cordless Power Tools

52 points by bobchadwick 3y ago

mhb 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
amluto 3y ago
I wonder if everyone but the top two is starting to regret the proprietary batteries. It would be a break from tradition, and potentially incompatible, but the other manufacturers could adopt a joint battery standard to try to attract users who aren’t willing to go all in on a single system.
- radlad 3y ago
  I have video lights with battery adapters for at least three or four different battery systems. Surely power tools could do something similar?
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. I've always needed to buy first-party batteries to replace worn out ones, and if I'm doing that it doesn't make any difference to me if their interface is proprietary or standard. Sell me batteries worth a damn, then we can talk about standards.
  - lukan 3y ago
    Not my experience, but I think the main argument here is, that every time you want a new tool, you will have to get one from the brand you already have, or also buy new batteries. That annoys me already.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      It is much more annoying for a home user than for a professional user. Once you have two battery types, you might as well have a few. People seem to be quite fine with M12 and M18, which are only compatible on the charger itself. It is much less important to have access to multiple brands now compared to 20 years ago, as most of the brands have acceptable tools across the line even if they're not all the "best in class".
  - bradstewart 3y ago
    But it would mean I don't have to buy the same brand of every tool.
  - amluto 3y ago
    > A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. But that doesn’t matter! If, say, Makita, Bosch and Hilti started using standard, interchangeable batteries, you could use Makita, Bosch, or Hilti batteries in tools by any of the three brands. No need for third party batteries.
- wlesieutre 3y ago
  The batteries are a selling point for Ryobi too, they’ve maintained compatibility with one 18v design since like 1990 so you don’t wonder “are they going to replace this battery design with an incompatible one next year?” I think the companies that wouldn’t like the proprietary are ones trying to make a new entry into the market, since you have to convince someone your tool is worth adding a new battery/charger to the garage while knowing there’s not a full system of everything that could use it. If there were a standard battery it’d be easier to say “we’re a company that only makes a circular saw.”
  - myself248 3y ago
    Yeah, I'm on the Ryobi system for exactly that reason, and still using some of my original blue tools from the 90s. They just refuse to quit, and with modern batteries they perform better than ever. It's also the broadest system, with everything from drills and saws, to lights and fans, to soldering irons and dremel-like tools. Some of their stuff isn't as compact or as full-featured as Milwaukee, and this is shitty artificial segmentation on the part of their shared parent company, but for the most part it's all I've needed. (The new HP drill with the metal chuck and anti-backdriving clutch finally answers my chief complaint about all Ryobi drills before that.) But, NOBODY, on any battery platform, or even all of them put together, makes EVERYTHING I want, and I end up doing a fair amount of hacking. Ryobi 18v is a forgiving system, with the BMS integrated into the batteries, so you can just draw power and do whatever. I made my own soldering iron long before Ryobi released their own. I've had USB outputs since long before Ryobi released their own. I've cobbled together a 100W USB-C one now, while the official ones top out at 45W. I've been using those batteries to drive an electric cooler/freezer since long before Ryobi released their own. If I hypothetically had universal batteries that would fit any tool from any brand, would that make it better? Not significantly, I don't think. Other brands don't seem to offer significantly more, or significantly earlier. If I want a lot more or a lot earlier, I have to do it myself. A universal battery would've given me an anti-backdriving drill earlier, and I could have the Makita microwave, that's legitimately cool but it's also ungodly expensive and I wouldn't buy one even if I was already on the Makita battery platform. DeWalt's radio is probably nicer but I don't even use the Ryobi radio I've got, so I don't think that matters. A universal battery WOULD be great, just for competition's sake, but in practice I don't think it would change much for me. I'm already basically there, through a combination of a very versatile base platform that goes most places, and the ability to chop things up and make new stuff when I want to go even further.
- unwind 3y ago
  Bosch professional tools ("blue") are in a giant battery-sharing alliance with dozens of manufacturers nobody has heard of [1] because pro. Obviously Bosch DIY tools ("green") are in another alliance [2]. Much sharing, big convincing. [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ https://www.ampshare.com/ [2]: https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
    Figures. There is only one strategy: When you are small, cooperate, when you are big, pull up the ladder. These must be very small brands.
  - namdnay 3y ago
    "battery-sharing alliance " -> hardly, it's just lots of niche toolmakers using bosch batteries
    - bombcar 3y ago
      This exists elsewhere - the local fire truck has some giant battery powered fan that uses Milwaukee batteries, but the fan isn't made by Milwaukee. (They also had M28 which I'd never seen in person).
- tinix 3y ago
  i have good luck with these: https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-adapter-converters https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-a... The company was responsive to support before ordering to ensure compatibility. The interfaces can be adapted... it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down.
  - spott 3y ago
    > it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down. It isn't quite that easy. The high-output 18v batteries can dump over 100 Amps for short durations. Stepping that kind of power up or down isn't really possible in any consumer device. The good news is that Dewalt 20V and Milwaukee 18V are actually the same: they are both 5 li-ion cells. The no-load voltage of a li-ion cell is ~4V, the voltage under load is 3.6V. This is why you can use Milwaukee batteries on Dewalt devices and vice-versa.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      The other problem you can run into is some tools have the BMS in the battery, some have it in the tool. So some batteries protect themselves from being overdrawn, others do not. M18 batteries, for example, are dumb and will let you discharge them way too low where they won't take a charge anymore.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  A lot of companies would end up competing against themselves. https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... <--these include all power tools, not just cordless. Kind of interesting to see who's actually related to who.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Sometimes the stars align and you get almost unintended compatibility - I wish that Craftsman tools could take Dewalt batteries.
- latchkey 3y ago
  Protip: there are adapter shims you can buy.
jakogut 3y ago
I cut down and removed some forty trees of heaven, ranging forty to sixty feet tall and up to ten inches in diameter, using an M12 8" pruning saw. I went through a lot of batteries, a couple chains, and almost a full bottle of bar oil, but I didn't need to hassle with a small engine. They make an M18 version now that would've been nice to have at the time.
- bombcar 3y ago
  The chainsaws (both the small ones and the bigger ones) are a real example of where you can look at something that has substantially improved and is actually usable now. The M18 chainsaw is perfectly usable and much easier than firing up the big gas one.
- trey-jones 3y ago
  I guess those are Stihl models? I think you're overestimating the inconvenience of a small engine. It's possible that I'm underestimating the convenience of a battery... I do have an old-school bias probably. But if I were cutting that much I'd rather stop and refuel once, maybe twice than have to keep swapping batteries. I guess it's heavier too... I think of it as a workout. Edit: I guess I should disclose my comparison, which is a Stihl MS260 that's probably 20-30 years old. Never a problem starting and I'm guessing easier to repair than an electric one.
  - jakogut 3y ago
    Milwaukee. As another commenter pointed out, it's not so much that small engines are inconvenient to use as that they're also inconvenient to store and maintain. Especially when it's a seldom used tool.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Especially the newer gas ones. Old gas tools were loose, carbureted, and flexible; they'd run on damn near anything burnable. New ones often have a bunch of stuff on them to reduce emissions, which makes them more complicated (some are fuel injected!) and you have to do things like drain out the ethanol-injected gas so it doesn't go bad over the winter, etc, etc. I'm just sad my snowblower died before electric ones really took off.
josefresco 3y ago
We bought into the DeWALT system and have been pretty pleased. Air compressor (stays in truck) 16" Chainsaw (I've cut up several large trees no sweat) Handheld leaf blower (way quieter than gas) Torque wrench (stays in truck for wheel emergencies, I tow) Drill (for around the house) We recently had our first battery die which I feel is good luck considering we've had some of the tools for years. The next tools will probably be a pressure washer, and a reciprocating saw.
- hotsauceror 3y ago
  Same here. I've been very pleased with their cordless yard stuff and tools. Angle grinder, reciprocating saw, drill, driver, impact driver, lawn trimmer, 16" chainsaw, and a corded mitre saw. I will admit I was skeptical at first about battery-based high-torque tools like a chainsaw, but I asked several people and got good recommendations. That chainsaw has been an absolute beast. Also bought the job site radio which I absolutely love. BT, corded but also acts as a battery charger OR can be powered off battery. We've got two dual chargers, several singles, and bag full of batteries up to 60V. Were in it to win it, now, with DeWalt, but they have yet to let me down.
namdnay 3y ago
> Similar is happening in the cordless power tool industry. There’s Dewalt and Milwaukee – in no particular order – and then everyone else. this seems to be a very US-centric analysis? if I were to look at Europe I'd say that on the pro market there's Hilti and then everyone else. and the consumer market is very open (Bosch, Ryobi, Makita, Dewalt etc) EDIT: and of course, Parkside, aka the greatest value for money of all time
- stcroixx 3y ago
  I'm in the US and have used Makita for almost 20 years and been totally satisfied. You wouldn't know they were a distant third place or worse based on availability, breadth of offerings, price, or quality. My concerns are quality and durability, unlike the author who seems more interested in subjective things like 'unwavering commitment to end users' - I don't even know what that really means. Same for his others apparent beefs.
  - rob74 3y ago
    Makita are very popular over here in Germany. But their "global" website (https://www.makita.biz https://www.makita.biz) doesn't quite scream "commitment to end users". (C) 2006?! Their German site looks a bit more modern...
    - arcanemachiner 3y ago
      Maybe their end users don't care that the website wasn't made with React and Tailwind.
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      I'm still at loss what kind of commitment to end users you would expect to see on a web site. You want to see e-commerce? If so, you won't find it on the global site, for obvious reasons.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    He goes into details in other posts - Makita is just fine as a tool, but new tools take forever to appear in the USA (if ever) and what they have hasn't changed much over the years, whereas other manufacturers are releasing improved tools pretty regularly.
bombcar 3y ago
Toolguyd (guide, get it) is good writing, and he's obviously annoyed that few manufacturers talk to "old media" anymore (he is more like a newspaper writer than a social media influencer). I sometimes wonder what percentage of "tool sales" are "prosumer" - it's pretty obvious with cameras, for example, that some are designed to be sold to prosumers and some are designed to be sold into professional industries.
- namdnay 3y ago
  I don't know what it's like in the US, but in the several european countries I've lived in the real "pro market" is all leasing, not buying. just like their vehicles, they'll have a fleet of tools with on-site support contracts
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I think that might be a big difference US vs EU - many US builders are technically independent contractors, and so "buy their own" - there are large companies with fleet-managed tools (see things like OneKey) but it's not as common as it may be elsewhere.
  - seec 3y ago
    I might be wrong but I believe this is done for accounting purposes, because of the generally ultra repressive taxation system in place. It makes it easier to extract more value if that makes sense...
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Even in the USA there's often business advantages to leasing (you can deduct the entire year's cost of the lease immediately) vs buying to own (you have to depreciate on the depreciation scale).
_fat_santa 3y ago
One thing that excites me as a gear-head is the availability of affordable electric impact tools. When I was a kid, the only folks that had impact drivers were mechanics as they required an air compressor to operate. Now I can walk into Home Depot or even Walmart and walk out with a cordless impact driver that's just as good as the old air powered tools for <$100.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Just as good? It's gotten to where the normal cordless are way better than most non-top-tier air. And if those at home have never used an impact driver "because a drill is the same thing" you need to try one. I love the Surge (because the hydraulics makes it quieter), but any impact driver is a whole new world.
Freak_NL 3y ago
Is it? Every corded power tool I buy comes with a standard power plug (region dependent of course). Plug it in, and it works. Buy another tool from a different brand (perhaps they are better at that type of tool), and now you have two tools which just work. If you go all in on cordless, now battery management becomes an issue. There is no universal battery solution, so you either have to commit to a single brand, or deal with several charging stations and battery types. If one of these tools manages to survive for a decade or two, you now have to deal with old batteries with may or may not hold a charge for a decent while, and get into the hell that is after-market batteries. The corded tool meanwhile, will just work. I have a cordless handheld drill, and a cordless impact driver. Those are two of the tools you really want to have cordless. I got them from the same brand with four batteries and two charging stations. The rest is all corded. Extension cords are cheap.
- matthewfcarlson 3y ago
  Just my personal experience. Had corded tools for years and I think from a power perspective they have battery beat. But I was gifted a cordless drill and impact driver and they last forever. Battery management hasn’t been an issue. I use them almost every weekend (hanging drywall for example, which involves a lot of screws) or in my pocket hole jig. I charge the batteries every few months over night.
  - fatnoah 3y ago
    This has been my experience as well. I resisted cordless for far longer than I could really justify, and have been very, very, very pleasantly surprised with how well the cordless stuff works.
    - thehappypm 3y ago
      Ditto. I only have one corded tool left (a sawzall) and I can’t wait to replace it.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      I have all corded tools, but with all the hype and excitement around cordless, I thought I'd give cordless a try and got a 18V Bosch cordless drill. It chews through its battery in probably 2-3 hours of work, and so I ended up getting three batteries and two charging stations just to be able to sustain the damn thing through a day's worth of work. I'd expect much better. Cordless battery powered is probably fine for light duty hobbyist work, but for constant use, it's annoying to have to keep juggling batteries among chargers. And that's just one tool. I couldn't imagine having to juggle multiple incompatible batteries among multiple incompatible chargers. Good grief. I'll just keep my cords thank you.
bemusedthrow75 3y ago
Does one really want a cordless table saw? Isn't the additional ability to kill the power from the mains useful?
- myself248 3y ago
  Unplugging the battery is easier as you don't even have to follow the cord or bend over to reach it. The battery is right there. It can be useful if you've got the saw set up as an island, there's no cord to either dangle from the ceiling, or trip over on the floor. An island setup is super practical for material handling. If the battery can get you through a useful number of cuts, yeah, it has some real advantages.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    Mains can be killed at a distance, in the doorway, by someone not even getting near the machine. Losing a mains "all stop" (and a mains breaker at that) seems to me to be an odd safety choice. I think cordless tools make a lot of sense for anything you have to hold or direct with motion. I'm just not convinced by the need elsewhere, particularly on the most dangerous tools.
    - myself248 3y ago
      I guess a door-located emergency-stop button is standard in your country? It's not here. I've never seen one in either a home shop or a commercial cabinet shop. That's interesting. I wouldn't walk over to the door to isolate power before changing a blade, for instance, I'd just unplug the cord or the battery. That lets the rest of the shop continue running while I have my hands inside the one specific machine.
      - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        I don't know if it is a standard, but I have seen them a fair bit (UK). I did say "additional", though. I mean, yes, you'd want to be able to locally isolate the power as well, where possible. But when the device is capable of running cordless, you're losing that scope.
binarymax 3y ago
Totally agree. The only problem is that batteries are so expensive you need to align yourself with a brand so that you can swap batteries between tools. I wish there was a standard battery spec, so that they were interoperable between brands - but that's unlikely to happen. Also shoutout to ProjectFarm (https://www.youtube.com/@ProjectFarm/playlists https://www.youtube.com/@ProjectFarm/playlists) who has amazing videos that help decide which tool to buy. He has so many videos on all kinds of things, here is is playlist on power tools specifically: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjT3B9r2z3fVnLuTMmLfndqtBWyfNAiyl https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjT3B9r2z3fVnLuTMmLfn...
blindstitch 3y ago
15 words is not a paragraph! Why are so many people writing this way? Is it leakage from Twitter?
xyzelement 3y ago
I was very skeptical about battery powered power tools but I am coming around. When we bought the house, I bought some corded yard tools (weed whacker and leaf blower) because I was assuming battery ones are weak and unreliable but the reality is that operating these things while wired in is just a huge pain in the ass. Meanwhile my neighbors who have battery powered equivalents are doing just fine. My mower (which came with the house) is battery powered and works great. The Ryobi drill I bought when I moved in here almost 3 years ago has been working great and I literally had to charge it only once in this time (I guess I don't use it often but the fact that a power tool maintained charge for 1.5 years is impressive in itself.) I guess I also took a bet on the battery world when I bought a hybrid. Likewise going strong going into the 3rd year. Maybe it's time to stop thinking of batteries as weak and unreliable. But they are definitively an additional point of failure and complexity.
- soylentcola 3y ago
  Also have some Ryobi stuff. Got a surprisingly affordable (under $150) package deal with a drill, impact driver, oscillating tool, reciprocating saw, flashlight, and small circular saw. Came with a charger and two battery packs. None of these are incredible tools, but none of them have failed on me. The only thing that's died is one of the battery packs and I replaced it with a larger one since the included ones were pretty small. Pretty sure I killed it by using it with a more demanding tool not included in the package. In retrospect, I'm thinking the cheapo deal was a way to get people like me - just bought a fixer upper house and looking to do some light-to-moderate DIY work - invested in their ecosystem. Well, it's worked. When I need other cordless tools, I get more Ryobi since they work with the same battery packs. Grinder, hand vacuum, etc. have been the same brand. That said, I've needed higher quality tools as well, and when I got a better circular saw and a big hammer drill, I went corded and had the benefit of not worrying about battery brands. Probably should've gone corded for the grinder as well (it kills battery packs quickly).
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    The nature of the tool makes the corded/not corded decision easier too. The ones I mentioned (weed whacker, leaf blower, drill) are usually used when you're moving around and having to plug in and drag the chord around is a real pain in the ass. For something like circular saw, I think that's much less of an issue. I picture that as something you set up in a spot and use for the duration of the project. So I guess I am surprised it even comes in a battery option.
snshn 3y ago
Those are garbage. Stick with HILTI, Metabo, Fein, Festool. Or Japanese-made Makita, as the last resort.
- anthomtb 3y ago
  Maybe explain why you need to buy very expensive tools and everything else is garbage? Just about every contractor around here (USA based) is using Milwaukee, Dewalt or Makita. These folks make a living with their tools and don't have patience for junk. Even lower tier brands like Ryobi are more than capable for home use. I got a lot done around the house with a basic Hitachi drill and corded Skil saw before treating myself to some fancier stuff.
  - fatbird 3y ago
    I've run into a few contractors who have Ryobi as well, and are fine with them. They're sufficient for a lot of tasks, and most contractors end up with multiples of any tool anyway. One actually said "I may go through two Ryobi tools while you go through one, but it's still cheaper, and I worry less about losing or wrecking it." I've yet to meet a contractor who's brand loyal to the point of only using that brand. Most have two or three brands they tend to go to.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      I know some contractors with Harbor Freight tools that they're moderately annoyed haven't died yet. Buy it once to throw away and it just keeps working. Lots of the super price brands like Festool are more ... showoff I almost feel.
    - pandaman 3y ago
      There is the market segmentation to be considered: Ryobi is owned by the same holding that owns Milwaukee so they make sure a Ryobi tool does not perform on par with a more expensive Milwaukee equivalent. So if you do, say, electrical work, you can use a Ryobi impact because you don't really care how fast you screw a dozen fasteners you'll need in a whole day. But if you install cabinets/decks and need to put in thousands fasteners a day then you will want the fastest impact, which won't be a Ryobi by far. As for brand loyalty - it comes from the fact that batteries are more expensive than the tools. A handyman or a two people crew on a small job can have five different batteries with five different charges for ten different tools in the truck without much problem. A crew of ten people working on the same site for days will need multiple batteries per tool and if they try to use different systems they will end up with people waiting for a free outlet so they can charge and work for a couple more hours before they will need to wait again. It's much easier to set up one charging point and pool charged batteries for everyone to use.
btbuildem 3y ago
It does depend on what you're doing. I have a small driver that fits in my belt pouch easily -- the battery doesn't last long so it's always on shuffle at the charger (I have two) but it's light and small and convenient when crawling around or climbing ladders. I have a 300 rpm corded beast of a drill for mixing concrete, and I wish you luck doing that with a battery-powered one. This thing sounds like a land rover climbing a hill in low gear, and puts out about as much torque. I've got a cordless framing nailer that sinks 3 1/2" nails with ease, and isn't that much heavier than an air one, without the hassle of hoses and compressors. I've got a corded chop saw with its own fold-out stand, usually that thing is planted in one place for the duration of the job. Oh yeah, and I have five different chargers for the whole menagerie of tools, because why would there ever be a standard? There isn't a one-size-fits all solution -- some tools are better corded, some more practical with battery power. It depends on your use and situation.
- graton 3y ago
  For the small driver I recommend the Bosch 12 volt tools. They can be bought on sale for a good price. And the batteries last for a very long time. I rarely charge mine, but I only use them occasionally.
jakedata 3y ago
It is important to choose your battery system and stick with it. I selected Makita because that's what my contractor uses to make a living. I recently took advantage of my state's green lawn care rebate to purchase a heavily discounted Makita lawn mower which -crucially- came with 4 big batteries that fit all my other tools. It is also important to realize that a pair of 18v Lithium Ion batteries can deliver more wattage than a regular (USA) household electrical outlet, especially while using an extension cord. The Makita chop saw is a great example of a battery product that is actually superior (IMHO) to the corded version. Makita's fast chargers have a built-in fan that cools down a hot battery and maintains optimal temp during the charge cycle. Even my oldest batteries still work great.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I chose Makita for the same reason and I've loved the stuff. The tools are solid and well thought-out, the batteries have lasted for years, and I've been able to get away with far fewer batteries than I have tools which saves a bunch of money.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  This is true for contractors, where you have a bunch of batteries, some (human based) system to charge them and keep them charged, so when you need to do something, there's always a battery ready. I have a corded drill, and that thing always works... i need an extension cord, sure, but I plug it in and it works, 1 minute, 1 hour, 10 hours,... it just works. I have a battery powered angle grinder, and the battery is always empty. Need to cut something? Empty... take out the old electric one, do whatever I needed to cut, charge the battery ~half way (storage charge), put it away. Two years later, I need it again.. battery empty. Charge it, but since it went too low (overdischarge, undervoltage), the capacity is reduced now. Work, charge, work, charge, then back to the case for the next two years, and two more years when the battery is empty and practically dead with maybe 5 hours of actual use. In the meantime, I have a circular saw from 1980s that still works. tldr: if you need power tools once per year or less, corded might be a better choice.
  - dhd415 3y ago
tocs3 3y ago
I have an old Porta Cable 505 finish pad sander (maybe abound 50yo) that I would not want to give up. It will run all day every day. One nice thing about it is its flat top. I can turn it over and use it as a sanding table for small parts. I think some of the attraction to new tools are the flashy tennis shoe colors and shapes. In a shop setting cords are not bad. Old tools were often just made to run forever and are serviceable. Parts are getting harder to find but maybe 3D printers will help and McMaster Carr (a great web site) has lot of stuff. Old pro tools are often an order of magnitude cheaper than anything new and will work just as well they always have. I love my cordless Ridgid drill and driver. I will buy some new stuff but will stick with used (and even vintage) when I can.
starkparker 3y ago
One of the nicest trends for me has been pairing them with 3D printed adapters and accessories, which has really started to dent manufacturers' attempts at proprietary accessory platforms. I've bought or commissioned 3D-printed track rail adapters to use a DeWalt router on a Kreg track, a DeWalt 20V battery adapter to power 18V Ryobi tools, and dust nozzle adapters to connect my shopvac hose just about every tool, and they all just seem to work without much fuss.
- bobchadwick 3y ago
  That adapter sounds amazing. I love the Kreg rails, but never thought of the potential for using it with a router. Are you using it with a trim router?
  - starkparker 3y ago
    Yeah, mostly for finishing edges that weren't cut with the track saw.
- bravado56 3y ago
  [dead]

52 points by bobchadwick 3y ago

mhb 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

amluto 3y ago

I wonder if everyone but the top two is starting to regret the proprietary batteries. It would be a break from tradition, and potentially incompatible, but the other manufacturers could adopt a joint battery standard to try to attract users who aren’t willing to go all in on a single system.

radlad 3y ago
I have video lights with battery adapters for at least three or four different battery systems. Surely power tools could do something similar?
Dalewyn 3y ago
A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. I've always needed to buy first-party batteries to replace worn out ones, and if I'm doing that it doesn't make any difference to me if their interface is proprietary or standard. Sell me batteries worth a damn, then we can talk about standards.
- lukan 3y ago
  Not my experience, but I think the main argument here is, that every time you want a new tool, you will have to get one from the brand you already have, or also buy new batteries. That annoys me already.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It is much more annoying for a home user than for a professional user. Once you have two battery types, you might as well have a few. People seem to be quite fine with M12 and M18, which are only compatible on the charger itself. It is much less important to have access to multiple brands now compared to 20 years ago, as most of the brands have acceptable tools across the line even if they're not all the "best in class".
- bradstewart 3y ago
  But it would mean I don't have to buy the same brand of every tool.
- amluto 3y ago
  > A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. But that doesn’t matter! If, say, Makita, Bosch and Hilti started using standard, interchangeable batteries, you could use Makita, Bosch, or Hilti batteries in tools by any of the three brands. No need for third party batteries.
wlesieutre 3y ago
The batteries are a selling point for Ryobi too, they’ve maintained compatibility with one 18v design since like 1990 so you don’t wonder “are they going to replace this battery design with an incompatible one next year?” I think the companies that wouldn’t like the proprietary are ones trying to make a new entry into the market, since you have to convince someone your tool is worth adding a new battery/charger to the garage while knowing there’s not a full system of everything that could use it. If there were a standard battery it’d be easier to say “we’re a company that only makes a circular saw.”
- myself248 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm on the Ryobi system for exactly that reason, and still using some of my original blue tools from the 90s. They just refuse to quit, and with modern batteries they perform better than ever. It's also the broadest system, with everything from drills and saws, to lights and fans, to soldering irons and dremel-like tools. Some of their stuff isn't as compact or as full-featured as Milwaukee, and this is shitty artificial segmentation on the part of their shared parent company, but for the most part it's all I've needed. (The new HP drill with the metal chuck and anti-backdriving clutch finally answers my chief complaint about all Ryobi drills before that.) But, NOBODY, on any battery platform, or even all of them put together, makes EVERYTHING I want, and I end up doing a fair amount of hacking. Ryobi 18v is a forgiving system, with the BMS integrated into the batteries, so you can just draw power and do whatever. I made my own soldering iron long before Ryobi released their own. I've had USB outputs since long before Ryobi released their own. I've cobbled together a 100W USB-C one now, while the official ones top out at 45W. I've been using those batteries to drive an electric cooler/freezer since long before Ryobi released their own. If I hypothetically had universal batteries that would fit any tool from any brand, would that make it better? Not significantly, I don't think. Other brands don't seem to offer significantly more, or significantly earlier. If I want a lot more or a lot earlier, I have to do it myself. A universal battery would've given me an anti-backdriving drill earlier, and I could have the Makita microwave, that's legitimately cool but it's also ungodly expensive and I wouldn't buy one even if I was already on the Makita battery platform. DeWalt's radio is probably nicer but I don't even use the Ryobi radio I've got, so I don't think that matters. A universal battery WOULD be great, just for competition's sake, but in practice I don't think it would change much for me. I'm already basically there, through a combination of a very versatile base platform that goes most places, and the ability to chop things up and make new stuff when I want to go even further.
unwind 3y ago
Bosch professional tools ("blue") are in a giant battery-sharing alliance with dozens of manufacturers nobody has heard of [1] because pro. Obviously Bosch DIY tools ("green") are in another alliance [2]. Much sharing, big convincing. [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ https://www.ampshare.com/ [2]: https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
  Figures. There is only one strategy: When you are small, cooperate, when you are big, pull up the ladder. These must be very small brands.
- namdnay 3y ago
  "battery-sharing alliance " -> hardly, it's just lots of niche toolmakers using bosch batteries
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This exists elsewhere - the local fire truck has some giant battery powered fan that uses Milwaukee batteries, but the fan isn't made by Milwaukee. (They also had M28 which I'd never seen in person).
tinix 3y ago
i have good luck with these: https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-adapter-converters https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-a... The company was responsive to support before ordering to ensure compatibility. The interfaces can be adapted... it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down.
- spott 3y ago
  > it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down. It isn't quite that easy. The high-output 18v batteries can dump over 100 Amps for short durations. Stepping that kind of power up or down isn't really possible in any consumer device. The good news is that Dewalt 20V and Milwaukee 18V are actually the same: they are both 5 li-ion cells. The no-load voltage of a li-ion cell is ~4V, the voltage under load is 3.6V. This is why you can use Milwaukee batteries on Dewalt devices and vice-versa.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The other problem you can run into is some tools have the BMS in the battery, some have it in the tool. So some batteries protect themselves from being overdrawn, others do not. M18 batteries, for example, are dumb and will let you discharge them way too low where they won't take a charge anymore.
somerandomqaguy 3y ago
A lot of companies would end up competing against themselves. https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... <--these include all power tools, not just cordless. Kind of interesting to see who's actually related to who.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Sometimes the stars align and you get almost unintended compatibility - I wish that Craftsman tools could take Dewalt batteries.
latchkey 3y ago
Protip: there are adapter shims you can buy.

jakogut 3y ago

I cut down and removed some forty trees of heaven, ranging forty to sixty feet tall and up to ten inches in diameter, using an M12 8" pruning saw. I went through a lot of batteries, a couple chains, and almost a full bottle of bar oil, but I didn't need to hassle with a small engine. They make an M18 version now that would've been nice to have at the time.

bombcar 3y ago
The chainsaws (both the small ones and the bigger ones) are a real example of where you can look at something that has substantially improved and is actually usable now. The M18 chainsaw is perfectly usable and much easier than firing up the big gas one.
trey-jones 3y ago
I guess those are Stihl models? I think you're overestimating the inconvenience of a small engine. It's possible that I'm underestimating the convenience of a battery... I do have an old-school bias probably. But if I were cutting that much I'd rather stop and refuel once, maybe twice than have to keep swapping batteries. I guess it's heavier too... I think of it as a workout. Edit: I guess I should disclose my comparison, which is a Stihl MS260 that's probably 20-30 years old. Never a problem starting and I'm guessing easier to repair than an electric one.
- jakogut 3y ago
  Milwaukee. As another commenter pointed out, it's not so much that small engines are inconvenient to use as that they're also inconvenient to store and maintain. Especially when it's a seldom used tool.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Especially the newer gas ones. Old gas tools were loose, carbureted, and flexible; they'd run on damn near anything burnable. New ones often have a bunch of stuff on them to reduce emissions, which makes them more complicated (some are fuel injected!) and you have to do things like drain out the ethanol-injected gas so it doesn't go bad over the winter, etc, etc. I'm just sad my snowblower died before electric ones really took off.

josefresco 3y ago

We bought into the DeWALT system and have been pretty pleased. Air compressor (stays in truck) 16" Chainsaw (I've cut up several large trees no sweat) Handheld leaf blower (way quieter than gas) Torque wrench (stays in truck for wheel emergencies, I tow) Drill (for around the house) We recently had our first battery die which I feel is good luck considering we've had some of the tools for years. The next tools will probably be a pressure washer, and a reciprocating saw.

hotsauceror 3y ago
Same here. I've been very pleased with their cordless yard stuff and tools. Angle grinder, reciprocating saw, drill, driver, impact driver, lawn trimmer, 16" chainsaw, and a corded mitre saw. I will admit I was skeptical at first about battery-based high-torque tools like a chainsaw, but I asked several people and got good recommendations. That chainsaw has been an absolute beast. Also bought the job site radio which I absolutely love. BT, corded but also acts as a battery charger OR can be powered off battery. We've got two dual chargers, several singles, and bag full of batteries up to 60V. Were in it to win it, now, with DeWalt, but they have yet to let me down.

namdnay 3y ago

> Similar is happening in the cordless power tool industry. There’s Dewalt and Milwaukee – in no particular order – and then everyone else. this seems to be a very US-centric analysis? if I were to look at Europe I'd say that on the pro market there's Hilti and then everyone else. and the consumer market is very open (Bosch, Ryobi, Makita, Dewalt etc) EDIT: and of course, Parkside, aka the greatest value for money of all time

stcroixx 3y ago
I'm in the US and have used Makita for almost 20 years and been totally satisfied. You wouldn't know they were a distant third place or worse based on availability, breadth of offerings, price, or quality. My concerns are quality and durability, unlike the author who seems more interested in subjective things like 'unwavering commitment to end users' - I don't even know what that really means. Same for his others apparent beefs.
- rob74 3y ago
  Makita are very popular over here in Germany. But their "global" website (https://www.makita.biz https://www.makita.biz) doesn't quite scream "commitment to end users". (C) 2006?! Their German site looks a bit more modern...
  - arcanemachiner 3y ago
    Maybe their end users don't care that the website wasn't made with React and Tailwind.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    I'm still at loss what kind of commitment to end users you would expect to see on a web site. You want to see e-commerce? If so, you won't find it on the global site, for obvious reasons.
- bombcar 3y ago
  He goes into details in other posts - Makita is just fine as a tool, but new tools take forever to appear in the USA (if ever) and what they have hasn't changed much over the years, whereas other manufacturers are releasing improved tools pretty regularly.

bombcar 3y ago

Toolguyd (guide, get it) is good writing, and he's obviously annoyed that few manufacturers talk to "old media" anymore (he is more like a newspaper writer than a social media influencer). I sometimes wonder what percentage of "tool sales" are "prosumer" - it's pretty obvious with cameras, for example, that some are designed to be sold to prosumers and some are designed to be sold into professional industries.

namdnay 3y ago
I don't know what it's like in the US, but in the several european countries I've lived in the real "pro market" is all leasing, not buying. just like their vehicles, they'll have a fleet of tools with on-site support contracts
- bombcar 3y ago
  I think that might be a big difference US vs EU - many US builders are technically independent contractors, and so "buy their own" - there are large companies with fleet-managed tools (see things like OneKey) but it's not as common as it may be elsewhere.
- seec 3y ago
  I might be wrong but I believe this is done for accounting purposes, because of the generally ultra repressive taxation system in place. It makes it easier to extract more value if that makes sense...
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Even in the USA there's often business advantages to leasing (you can deduct the entire year's cost of the lease immediately) vs buying to own (you have to depreciate on the depreciation scale).

_fat_santa 3y ago

One thing that excites me as a gear-head is the availability of affordable electric impact tools. When I was a kid, the only folks that had impact drivers were mechanics as they required an air compressor to operate. Now I can walk into Home Depot or even Walmart and walk out with a cordless impact driver that's just as good as the old air powered tools for <$100.

bombcar 3y ago
Just as good? It's gotten to where the normal cordless are way better than most non-top-tier air. And if those at home have never used an impact driver "because a drill is the same thing" you need to try one. I love the Surge (because the hydraulics makes it quieter), but any impact driver is a whole new world.

Freak_NL 3y ago

Is it? Every corded power tool I buy comes with a standard power plug (region dependent of course). Plug it in, and it works. Buy another tool from a different brand (perhaps they are better at that type of tool), and now you have two tools which just work. If you go all in on cordless, now battery management becomes an issue. There is no universal battery solution, so you either have to commit to a single brand, or deal with several charging stations and battery types. If one of these tools manages to survive for a decade or two, you now have to deal with old batteries with may or may not hold a charge for a decent while, and get into the hell that is after-market batteries. The corded tool meanwhile, will just work. I have a cordless handheld drill, and a cordless impact driver. Those are two of the tools you really want to have cordless. I got them from the same brand with four batteries and two charging stations. The rest is all corded. Extension cords are cheap.

matthewfcarlson 3y ago
Just my personal experience. Had corded tools for years and I think from a power perspective they have battery beat. But I was gifted a cordless drill and impact driver and they last forever. Battery management hasn’t been an issue. I use them almost every weekend (hanging drywall for example, which involves a lot of screws) or in my pocket hole jig. I charge the batteries every few months over night.
- fatnoah 3y ago
  This has been my experience as well. I resisted cordless for far longer than I could really justify, and have been very, very, very pleasantly surprised with how well the cordless stuff works.
  - thehappypm 3y ago
    Ditto. I only have one corded tool left (a sawzall) and I can’t wait to replace it.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I have all corded tools, but with all the hype and excitement around cordless, I thought I'd give cordless a try and got a 18V Bosch cordless drill. It chews through its battery in probably 2-3 hours of work, and so I ended up getting three batteries and two charging stations just to be able to sustain the damn thing through a day's worth of work. I'd expect much better. Cordless battery powered is probably fine for light duty hobbyist work, but for constant use, it's annoying to have to keep juggling batteries among chargers. And that's just one tool. I couldn't imagine having to juggle multiple incompatible batteries among multiple incompatible chargers. Good grief. I'll just keep my cords thank you.

bemusedthrow75 3y ago

Does one really want a cordless table saw? Isn't the additional ability to kill the power from the mains useful?

myself248 3y ago
Unplugging the battery is easier as you don't even have to follow the cord or bend over to reach it. The battery is right there. It can be useful if you've got the saw set up as an island, there's no cord to either dangle from the ceiling, or trip over on the floor. An island setup is super practical for material handling. If the battery can get you through a useful number of cuts, yeah, it has some real advantages.
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  Mains can be killed at a distance, in the doorway, by someone not even getting near the machine. Losing a mains "all stop" (and a mains breaker at that) seems to me to be an odd safety choice. I think cordless tools make a lot of sense for anything you have to hold or direct with motion. I'm just not convinced by the need elsewhere, particularly on the most dangerous tools.
  - myself248 3y ago
    I guess a door-located emergency-stop button is standard in your country? It's not here. I've never seen one in either a home shop or a commercial cabinet shop. That's interesting. I wouldn't walk over to the door to isolate power before changing a blade, for instance, I'd just unplug the cord or the battery. That lets the rest of the shop continue running while I have my hands inside the one specific machine.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      I don't know if it is a standard, but I have seen them a fair bit (UK). I did say "additional", though. I mean, yes, you'd want to be able to locally isolate the power as well, where possible. But when the device is capable of running cordless, you're losing that scope.

binarymax 3y ago

Totally agree. The only problem is that batteries are so expensive you need to align yourself with a brand so that you can swap batteries between tools. I wish there was a standard battery spec, so that they were interoperable between brands - but that's unlikely to happen. Also shoutout to ProjectFarm (https://www.youtube.com/@ProjectFarm/playlists https://www.youtube.com/@ProjectFarm/playlists) who has amazing videos that help decide which tool to buy. He has so many videos on all kinds of things, here is is playlist on power tools specifically: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjT3B9r2z3fVnLuTMmLfndqtBWyfNAiyl https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjT3B9r2z3fVnLuTMmLfn...

blindstitch 3y ago

15 words is not a paragraph! Why are so many people writing this way? Is it leakage from Twitter?

xyzelement 3y ago

I was very skeptical about battery powered power tools but I am coming around. When we bought the house, I bought some corded yard tools (weed whacker and leaf blower) because I was assuming battery ones are weak and unreliable but the reality is that operating these things while wired in is just a huge pain in the ass. Meanwhile my neighbors who have battery powered equivalents are doing just fine. My mower (which came with the house) is battery powered and works great. The Ryobi drill I bought when I moved in here almost 3 years ago has been working great and I literally had to charge it only once in this time (I guess I don't use it often but the fact that a power tool maintained charge for 1.5 years is impressive in itself.) I guess I also took a bet on the battery world when I bought a hybrid. Likewise going strong going into the 3rd year. Maybe it's time to stop thinking of batteries as weak and unreliable. But they are definitively an additional point of failure and complexity.

soylentcola 3y ago
Also have some Ryobi stuff. Got a surprisingly affordable (under $150) package deal with a drill, impact driver, oscillating tool, reciprocating saw, flashlight, and small circular saw. Came with a charger and two battery packs. None of these are incredible tools, but none of them have failed on me. The only thing that's died is one of the battery packs and I replaced it with a larger one since the included ones were pretty small. Pretty sure I killed it by using it with a more demanding tool not included in the package. In retrospect, I'm thinking the cheapo deal was a way to get people like me - just bought a fixer upper house and looking to do some light-to-moderate DIY work - invested in their ecosystem. Well, it's worked. When I need other cordless tools, I get more Ryobi since they work with the same battery packs. Grinder, hand vacuum, etc. have been the same brand. That said, I've needed higher quality tools as well, and when I got a better circular saw and a big hammer drill, I went corded and had the benefit of not worrying about battery brands. Probably should've gone corded for the grinder as well (it kills battery packs quickly).
- xyzelement 3y ago
  The nature of the tool makes the corded/not corded decision easier too. The ones I mentioned (weed whacker, leaf blower, drill) are usually used when you're moving around and having to plug in and drag the chord around is a real pain in the ass. For something like circular saw, I think that's much less of an issue. I picture that as something you set up in a spot and use for the duration of the project. So I guess I am surprised it even comes in a battery option.

snshn 3y ago

Those are garbage. Stick with HILTI, Metabo, Fein, Festool. Or Japanese-made Makita, as the last resort.

anthomtb 3y ago
Maybe explain why you need to buy very expensive tools and everything else is garbage? Just about every contractor around here (USA based) is using Milwaukee, Dewalt or Makita. These folks make a living with their tools and don't have patience for junk. Even lower tier brands like Ryobi are more than capable for home use. I got a lot done around the house with a basic Hitachi drill and corded Skil saw before treating myself to some fancier stuff.
- fatbird 3y ago
  I've run into a few contractors who have Ryobi as well, and are fine with them. They're sufficient for a lot of tasks, and most contractors end up with multiples of any tool anyway. One actually said "I may go through two Ryobi tools while you go through one, but it's still cheaper, and I worry less about losing or wrecking it." I've yet to meet a contractor who's brand loyal to the point of only using that brand. Most have two or three brands they tend to go to.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I know some contractors with Harbor Freight tools that they're moderately annoyed haven't died yet. Buy it once to throw away and it just keeps working. Lots of the super price brands like Festool are more ... showoff I almost feel.
  - pandaman 3y ago
    There is the market segmentation to be considered: Ryobi is owned by the same holding that owns Milwaukee so they make sure a Ryobi tool does not perform on par with a more expensive Milwaukee equivalent. So if you do, say, electrical work, you can use a Ryobi impact because you don't really care how fast you screw a dozen fasteners you'll need in a whole day. But if you install cabinets/decks and need to put in thousands fasteners a day then you will want the fastest impact, which won't be a Ryobi by far. As for brand loyalty - it comes from the fact that batteries are more expensive than the tools. A handyman or a two people crew on a small job can have five different batteries with five different charges for ten different tools in the truck without much problem. A crew of ten people working on the same site for days will need multiple batteries per tool and if they try to use different systems they will end up with people waiting for a free outlet so they can charge and work for a couple more hours before they will need to wait again. It's much easier to set up one charging point and pool charged batteries for everyone to use.

btbuildem 3y ago

It does depend on what you're doing. I have a small driver that fits in my belt pouch easily -- the battery doesn't last long so it's always on shuffle at the charger (I have two) but it's light and small and convenient when crawling around or climbing ladders. I have a 300 rpm corded beast of a drill for mixing concrete, and I wish you luck doing that with a battery-powered one. This thing sounds like a land rover climbing a hill in low gear, and puts out about as much torque. I've got a cordless framing nailer that sinks 3 1/2" nails with ease, and isn't that much heavier than an air one, without the hassle of hoses and compressors. I've got a corded chop saw with its own fold-out stand, usually that thing is planted in one place for the duration of the job. Oh yeah, and I have five different chargers for the whole menagerie of tools, because why would there ever be a standard? There isn't a one-size-fits all solution -- some tools are better corded, some more practical with battery power. It depends on your use and situation.

graton 3y ago
For the small driver I recommend the Bosch 12 volt tools. They can be bought on sale for a good price. And the batteries last for a very long time. I rarely charge mine, but I only use them occasionally.

jakedata 3y ago

It is important to choose your battery system and stick with it. I selected Makita because that's what my contractor uses to make a living. I recently took advantage of my state's green lawn care rebate to purchase a heavily discounted Makita lawn mower which -crucially- came with 4 big batteries that fit all my other tools. It is also important to realize that a pair of 18v Lithium Ion batteries can deliver more wattage than a regular (USA) household electrical outlet, especially while using an extension cord. The Makita chop saw is a great example of a battery product that is actually superior (IMHO) to the corded version. Makita's fast chargers have a built-in fan that cools down a hot battery and maintains optimal temp during the charge cycle. Even my oldest batteries still work great.

nerdbert 3y ago
I chose Makita for the same reason and I've loved the stuff. The tools are solid and well thought-out, the batteries have lasted for years, and I've been able to get away with far fewer batteries than I have tools which saves a bunch of money.
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
This is true for contractors, where you have a bunch of batteries, some (human based) system to charge them and keep them charged, so when you need to do something, there's always a battery ready. I have a corded drill, and that thing always works... i need an extension cord, sure, but I plug it in and it works, 1 minute, 1 hour, 10 hours,... it just works. I have a battery powered angle grinder, and the battery is always empty. Need to cut something? Empty... take out the old electric one, do whatever I needed to cut, charge the battery ~half way (storage charge), put it away. Two years later, I need it again.. battery empty. Charge it, but since it went too low (overdischarge, undervoltage), the capacity is reduced now. Work, charge, work, charge, then back to the case for the next two years, and two more years when the battery is empty and practically dead with maybe 5 hours of actual use. In the meantime, I have a circular saw from 1980s that still works. tldr: if you need power tools once per year or less, corded might be a better choice.
- dhd415 3y ago

tocs3 3y ago

I have an old Porta Cable 505 finish pad sander (maybe abound 50yo) that I would not want to give up. It will run all day every day. One nice thing about it is its flat top. I can turn it over and use it as a sanding table for small parts. I think some of the attraction to new tools are the flashy tennis shoe colors and shapes. In a shop setting cords are not bad. Old tools were often just made to run forever and are serviceable. Parts are getting harder to find but maybe 3D printers will help and McMaster Carr (a great web site) has lot of stuff. Old pro tools are often an order of magnitude cheaper than anything new and will work just as well they always have. I love my cordless Ridgid drill and driver. I will buy some new stuff but will stick with used (and even vintage) when I can.

starkparker 3y ago

One of the nicest trends for me has been pairing them with 3D printed adapters and accessories, which has really started to dent manufacturers' attempts at proprietary accessory platforms. I've bought or commissioned 3D-printed track rail adapters to use a DeWalt router on a Kreg track, a DeWalt 20V battery adapter to power 18V Ryobi tools, and dust nozzle adapters to connect my shopvac hose just about every tool, and they all just seem to work without much fuss.

bobchadwick 3y ago
That adapter sounds amazing. I love the Kreg rails, but never thought of the potential for using it with a router. Are you using it with a trim router?
- starkparker 3y ago
  Yeah, mostly for finishing edges that weren't cut with the track saw.
bravado56 3y ago
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