5 ms·

I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back. I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit

I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back. I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.

Xplune13 3y ago
That's a new one. Genuine question, why do you prefer using cash instead of using a phone or card?
- 34679 3y ago
  Cash is free and easy. Electronic payments add cost and complexity that sometimes results in failure.
- rhdunn 3y ago
  Cash is useful in cases where your phone/card isn't working. E.g. if your phone has run out of battery, you are in a location that has a poor signal, your account has been locked due to a suspicious/unusual transaction (even if legitimate), etc. You don't need it all the time, just for emergencies.
  - atq2119 3y ago
    Systems you want to use in an emergency have a tendency to start failing when you don't exercise them regularly. That's my primary reason for using cash. Privacy is the second. The tactile sense for how much money I spend is the third.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  Transactions through credit cards and similar are not anonymous. Having third parties track your daily activities is beyond dystopian.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Not new at all. Many people feel that way. Lots of good arguments too.
- Alifatisk 3y ago
  Sometimes I don’t want to walk around with my valuables on me, I just bring a small sum enough to satisfy my groceries. I do this especially when it’s dark outside and I have to go out to shop, this way, I don’t lose anything significant if I get robbed. Another good reason is that some shops have to pay a fee for being able to accept digital transactions, for some shops, the fee is quite a lot. So paying with cash is preferred and helps them a bit. Lastly, while it sounds shady, being able to pay in cash keeps me from being traced by the government. I don’t really have anything to hide but having the option to be anonymous If I want feels good.
  - xadhominemx 3y ago
    You don't like to bring your valuables with you, so you bring cash instead of a PIN-protected debit card?
    - Alifatisk 3y ago
      I'd rather loose 10 bucks than letting them take my debit card. PIN is not required until a certain amount.
      - xadhominemx 3y ago
        You buy $10 of groceries at a time?
        Alifatisk 3y ago
        It’s not exactly 10$ every time, it varies. But it’s a small amount. If I have to buy larger amount of groceries, then I wait until daylight. No way I’m carrying more money when it’s dark outside.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
IshKebab 3y ago
I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring cash because the vendor does not accept card. (Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense.)
- coldtea 3y ago
  With cash being the default for thousands of years of history and everything, and card meaning card fees, tracking, tied to a bank, and so on, it totally makes sense.
- Alifatisk 3y ago
  > Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense So you tried to prove me wrong by giving a made up example?
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    The fact that my example is not really true is a stronger argument against you, not weaker.
    - Alifatisk 3y ago
      I don’t see how?
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        I will break it down: 1. You argue cashless is annoying because you have to remember your card/phone in addition to cash. 2. I countered that you could equally say that cash is bad because I have to remember cash in addition to my card/phone. Which makes them at worst equal. You just have to remember whichever one is accepted. 3. Except - as I stated and you highlighted - that is not really the case. Almost everywhere accepts card - more than accept cash, so not only is cashless equal to cash, it is better. (From a "having to remember things" point of view anyway.)
isodev 3y ago
Who knows, maybe this is the good timeline and "money goes the way of the dinosaurs" so we get to enjoy a Star Trek-like future.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Change Star Trek to Soylent Green or Elysium and you're closer.
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash. Buy somewhere else (if humanly possible), and tell this to the vendor who doesn't want to accept cash.
- cge 3y ago
  This is increasingly difficult, at least in Western Europe, without it being a significant imposition. I've had several instances where, despite absolutely no signage or indication anywhere outside the business, inside the business, or on the menu, I've waited in a queue, ordered something, and only when I'm ready to pay been told that the, eg, coffee shop won't accept cash. I've also been to several restaurants, especially in London, where despite officially accepting cash, attempting to pay in cash will result in the staff returning and asking you not to if at all possible: it appears that the staff at those restaurants are not actually allowed to handle cash payments themselves, and have to have management handle them directly. While it's not clear that these behaviours are legal, it does not appear that there is any enforcement.
  - switch007 3y ago
    In England at least, those behaviours are legal, without a doubt [0][1] I'm not aware of a law that requires them to clearly sign post which payment methods they accept. I think there are various laws in other places in Europe though. I'm definitely all for that They're taking on the risk of spoilage by not putting in any effort to make you aware before ordering - and hoping you'll just pay by card due to the sunk time cost. Shady but not illegal AFAIK. [0] https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/what-are-the-rules-on-paying-with-cash-aVmDa9C9WKrC https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/what-are-the-rules-on-p... [1] https://fullfact.org/online/legal-tender-cash-in-shops/ https://fullfact.org/online/legal-tender-cash-in-shops/
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I assume part of it is that if you accept any cash, you have most of the downsides without any of the upsides (e.g. not having to deposit cash at the bank).
Our_Benefactors 3y ago
Currently in China which is pretty much fully cashless and I fucking hate it. Get Alipay. Link your credit card. Put in a pin, but no not that pin because it has two consecutive numbers. Pick a different pin. Forget it by the time you need to pay and reset your pin. Go to the grocery store and have to download a new app to pay, they can’t take Alipay even though it’s the same parent company. Oh the machine didn’t work, so pull your phone out again to scan. And the endless additional services you need to sign up for to avoid price discrimination upwards of 200%. It’s a nightmare. Japan has it right, keeping with a cash based society.
- rwmj 3y ago
  When I was visiting China in 2019 it was just about still possible to use cash, but it was obvious the way things were going. As a visitor I wasn't able to use any of the available cashless payment methods (no bank account, for a start), so I don't know how visitors and tourists will cope.
- okasaki 3y ago
  Okay, but somehow the rest of the billion people manage it?
  - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
    I don't understand, how does this negate any of what I posted?
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Perhaps it implies you're particularly fussy, and the system works for 1 billion+ people.
      - Xylakant 3y ago
        It might also imply that 1 billion+ people also have a bad experience, but can’t do anything about it.
jasode 3y ago
>I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash. But how do you get a regular re-supply of your cash to pay the places that take cash? For me, I would have to make a regular trips to the bank ATM machine to withdraw cash. That type of errand is inconvenient which is why I haven't done that in 15 years. It's been so long that I don't even know what my secret PIN code is to withdraw cash. I pay for everything by credit-card. I can see where bringing a debit card can be inconvenient but the alternative of ATM withdrawals is inconvenient too (and also vulnerable to physical loss/theft).
- davemp 3y ago
  Don’t most bank reimburse atm fees? I just keep my cash topped off whenever I go to the grocery. It’s a lot more convenient to pull out my wallet than to look people up on vemno/zelle imo.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Be glad there are ATMs. I'm old enough to remember getting cash involved checks and bank tellers--assuming you had an account with a local bank because otherwise it was more complicated.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  How horrible, a slight inconvenience! I mean, sorry for the sass, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences? Being alive is slightly inconvenient most of the time.
  - jasode 3y ago
    >, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences? It's not about avoiding any and all inconveniences. My comment was based on gp's framing of the situation as "being required to do <X>". He wrote that a cashless businesses was not ideal because it means "being required to bring my phone / debit card with me". Ok, I can accept that inconvenience exists but then the alternative to "hassle of debit card" is just substituted with "hassle of being required to regularly re-supply the inventory of cash on hand". Substituting <X> with "debit card cashless" with "visit ATMs and carry wad of cash" didn't seem like a slam dunk tradeoff. Another issue I remember with cash is getting a stack of $20 bills from the ATM and then trying to spend it but the business' cash drawer doesn't have the appropriate inventory of small denomination bills to give back the correct change. (Even if the ATM can also spit out smaller $10s or $5s, they can often run out which then leaves only the larger $20 bills left for dispensing.) The credit-card transactions eliminate that issue because you just pay the exact amount. Sure, if transactions privacy is the #1 concern, then one will happily withdraw cash and deal with its inconveniences. But privacy wasn't in the gp's comment so I just interpreted it at face value.
giantg2 3y ago
"I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back." The major stores would be a problem, but on an individual basis I would bet many people would switch to silver or gold if cash were truly eliminated.
PikachuEXE 3y ago
Benjamin Franklin — 'Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.' Same for convenience What liberty? The ability to make transactions without a centralized and/or permissioned finance system
amelius 3y ago
On the other hand, if you're living in a street with lots of criminal activity and money laundry operations, maybe you think differently about it.
- el-salvador 3y ago
  This has happened to me while living and travelling in the Northern Triangle of Central America in the 2010s which at that time were the unsafest not-at-war countries of the world. Depending on the time of the day and location I just ran errands with only the smallest amount of cash needed and an old phone. And sometimes I kept an emergency $1 bill to pay the bus in my socks . If I was robbed, the most they could get from me was the small cash I had on hand. As money became electronic, organized crime changed tactics, and instead of only taking money from victims, they'd take the victims to ATMs to withdraw all their funds. Banks then reacted by limiting withdrawals at about $300 in ATMs depending on the risk of the area.
  - amelius 3y ago
    Yes this is one way it shows. Another is that there can be shops in your street that have no apparent viable business, but they exist only for the laundering. They are run by poor people. Every once in a while the real criminal (boss) shows up. It can cause all sorts of problems in good neighborhoods. Without cash, these problems would not exist.
Kiro 3y ago
I doubt it. The Nordics have been cashless for a long time and the personal inconvenience in the transition was essentially none. It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or wants to go back. Now I am against a cashless society for other reasons, mainly ideological, but claiming it's less convenient feels odd.
- Alifatisk 3y ago
  > It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or want to go back. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard elderly people complain about vendors not accepting cash anymore.
- EasyMark 3y ago
  The nordics will not always be a democracy (same for every country/people), then they will regret it. That may be 10 years from now or 200 years from now.

Xplune13 3y ago

That's a new one. Genuine question, why do you prefer using cash instead of using a phone or card?

34679 3y ago
Cash is free and easy. Electronic payments add cost and complexity that sometimes results in failure.
rhdunn 3y ago
Cash is useful in cases where your phone/card isn't working. E.g. if your phone has run out of battery, you are in a location that has a poor signal, your account has been locked due to a suspicious/unusual transaction (even if legitimate), etc. You don't need it all the time, just for emergencies.
- atq2119 3y ago
  Systems you want to use in an emergency have a tendency to start failing when you don't exercise them regularly. That's my primary reason for using cash. Privacy is the second. The tactile sense for how much money I spend is the third.
mdp2021 3y ago
Transactions through credit cards and similar are not anonymous. Having third parties track your daily activities is beyond dystopian.
coldtea 3y ago
Not new at all. Many people feel that way. Lots of good arguments too.
Alifatisk 3y ago
Sometimes I don’t want to walk around with my valuables on me, I just bring a small sum enough to satisfy my groceries. I do this especially when it’s dark outside and I have to go out to shop, this way, I don’t lose anything significant if I get robbed. Another good reason is that some shops have to pay a fee for being able to accept digital transactions, for some shops, the fee is quite a lot. So paying with cash is preferred and helps them a bit. Lastly, while it sounds shady, being able to pay in cash keeps me from being traced by the government. I don’t really have anything to hide but having the option to be anonymous If I want feels good.
- xadhominemx 3y ago
  You don't like to bring your valuables with you, so you bring cash instead of a PIN-protected debit card?
  - Alifatisk 3y ago
    I'd rather loose 10 bucks than letting them take my debit card. PIN is not required until a certain amount.
    - xadhominemx 3y ago
      You buy $10 of groceries at a time?
      - Alifatisk 3y ago
        It’s not exactly 10$ every time, it varies. But it’s a small amount. If I have to buy larger amount of groceries, then I wait until daylight. No way I’m carrying more money when it’s dark outside.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

IshKebab 3y ago

I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring cash because the vendor does not accept card. (Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense.)

coldtea 3y ago
With cash being the default for thousands of years of history and everything, and card meaning card fees, tracking, tied to a bank, and so on, it totally makes sense.
Alifatisk 3y ago
> Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense So you tried to prove me wrong by giving a made up example?
- IshKebab 3y ago
  The fact that my example is not really true is a stronger argument against you, not weaker.
  - Alifatisk 3y ago
    I don’t see how?
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      I will break it down: 1. You argue cashless is annoying because you have to remember your card/phone in addition to cash. 2. I countered that you could equally say that cash is bad because I have to remember cash in addition to my card/phone. Which makes them at worst equal. You just have to remember whichever one is accepted. 3. Except - as I stated and you highlighted - that is not really the case. Almost everywhere accepts card - more than accept cash, so not only is cashless equal to cash, it is better. (From a "having to remember things" point of view anyway.)

isodev 3y ago

Who knows, maybe this is the good timeline and "money goes the way of the dinosaurs" so we get to enjoy a Star Trek-like future.

coldtea 3y ago
Change Star Trek to Soylent Green or Elysium and you're closer.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago

> I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash. Buy somewhere else (if humanly possible), and tell this to the vendor who doesn't want to accept cash.

cge 3y ago
This is increasingly difficult, at least in Western Europe, without it being a significant imposition. I've had several instances where, despite absolutely no signage or indication anywhere outside the business, inside the business, or on the menu, I've waited in a queue, ordered something, and only when I'm ready to pay been told that the, eg, coffee shop won't accept cash. I've also been to several restaurants, especially in London, where despite officially accepting cash, attempting to pay in cash will result in the staff returning and asking you not to if at all possible: it appears that the staff at those restaurants are not actually allowed to handle cash payments themselves, and have to have management handle them directly. While it's not clear that these behaviours are legal, it does not appear that there is any enforcement.
- switch007 3y ago
  In England at least, those behaviours are legal, without a doubt [0][1] I'm not aware of a law that requires them to clearly sign post which payment methods they accept. I think there are various laws in other places in Europe though. I'm definitely all for that They're taking on the risk of spoilage by not putting in any effort to make you aware before ordering - and hoping you'll just pay by card due to the sunk time cost. Shady but not illegal AFAIK. [0] https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/what-are-the-rules-on-paying-with-cash-aVmDa9C9WKrC https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/what-are-the-rules-on-p... [1] https://fullfact.org/online/legal-tender-cash-in-shops/ https://fullfact.org/online/legal-tender-cash-in-shops/
- ghaff 3y ago
  I assume part of it is that if you accept any cash, you have most of the downsides without any of the upsides (e.g. not having to deposit cash at the bank).

Our_Benefactors 3y ago

Currently in China which is pretty much fully cashless and I fucking hate it. Get Alipay. Link your credit card. Put in a pin, but no not that pin because it has two consecutive numbers. Pick a different pin. Forget it by the time you need to pay and reset your pin. Go to the grocery store and have to download a new app to pay, they can’t take Alipay even though it’s the same parent company. Oh the machine didn’t work, so pull your phone out again to scan. And the endless additional services you need to sign up for to avoid price discrimination upwards of 200%. It’s a nightmare. Japan has it right, keeping with a cash based society.

rwmj 3y ago
When I was visiting China in 2019 it was just about still possible to use cash, but it was obvious the way things were going. As a visitor I wasn't able to use any of the available cashless payment methods (no bank account, for a start), so I don't know how visitors and tourists will cope.
okasaki 3y ago
Okay, but somehow the rest of the billion people manage it?
- Our_Benefactors 3y ago
  I don't understand, how does this negate any of what I posted?
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Perhaps it implies you're particularly fussy, and the system works for 1 billion+ people.
    - Xylakant 3y ago
      It might also imply that 1 billion+ people also have a bad experience, but can’t do anything about it.

jasode 3y ago

>I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash. But how do you get a regular re-supply of your cash to pay the places that take cash? For me, I would have to make a regular trips to the bank ATM machine to withdraw cash. That type of errand is inconvenient which is why I haven't done that in 15 years. It's been so long that I don't even know what my secret PIN code is to withdraw cash. I pay for everything by credit-card. I can see where bringing a debit card can be inconvenient but the alternative of ATM withdrawals is inconvenient too (and also vulnerable to physical loss/theft).

davemp 3y ago
Don’t most bank reimburse atm fees? I just keep my cash topped off whenever I go to the grocery. It’s a lot more convenient to pull out my wallet than to look people up on vemno/zelle imo.
ghaff 3y ago
Be glad there are ATMs. I'm old enough to remember getting cash involved checks and bank tellers--assuming you had an account with a local bank because otherwise it was more complicated.
carlosjobim 3y ago
How horrible, a slight inconvenience! I mean, sorry for the sass, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences? Being alive is slightly inconvenient most of the time.
- jasode 3y ago
  >, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences? It's not about avoiding any and all inconveniences. My comment was based on gp's framing of the situation as "being required to do <X>". He wrote that a cashless businesses was not ideal because it means "being required to bring my phone / debit card with me". Ok, I can accept that inconvenience exists but then the alternative to "hassle of debit card" is just substituted with "hassle of being required to regularly re-supply the inventory of cash on hand". Substituting <X> with "debit card cashless" with "visit ATMs and carry wad of cash" didn't seem like a slam dunk tradeoff. Another issue I remember with cash is getting a stack of $20 bills from the ATM and then trying to spend it but the business' cash drawer doesn't have the appropriate inventory of small denomination bills to give back the correct change. (Even if the ATM can also spit out smaller $10s or $5s, they can often run out which then leaves only the larger $20 bills left for dispensing.) The credit-card transactions eliminate that issue because you just pay the exact amount. Sure, if transactions privacy is the #1 concern, then one will happily withdraw cash and deal with its inconveniences. But privacy wasn't in the gp's comment so I just interpreted it at face value.

giantg2 3y ago

"I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back." The major stores would be a problem, but on an individual basis I would bet many people would switch to silver or gold if cash were truly eliminated.

PikachuEXE 3y ago

Benjamin Franklin — 'Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.' Same for convenience What liberty? The ability to make transactions without a centralized and/or permissioned finance system

amelius 3y ago

On the other hand, if you're living in a street with lots of criminal activity and money laundry operations, maybe you think differently about it.

el-salvador 3y ago
This has happened to me while living and travelling in the Northern Triangle of Central America in the 2010s which at that time were the unsafest not-at-war countries of the world. Depending on the time of the day and location I just ran errands with only the smallest amount of cash needed and an old phone. And sometimes I kept an emergency $1 bill to pay the bus in my socks . If I was robbed, the most they could get from me was the small cash I had on hand. As money became electronic, organized crime changed tactics, and instead of only taking money from victims, they'd take the victims to ATMs to withdraw all their funds. Banks then reacted by limiting withdrawals at about $300 in ATMs depending on the risk of the area.
- amelius 3y ago
  Yes this is one way it shows. Another is that there can be shops in your street that have no apparent viable business, but they exist only for the laundering. They are run by poor people. Every once in a while the real criminal (boss) shows up. It can cause all sorts of problems in good neighborhoods. Without cash, these problems would not exist.

Kiro 3y ago

I doubt it. The Nordics have been cashless for a long time and the personal inconvenience in the transition was essentially none. It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or wants to go back. Now I am against a cashless society for other reasons, mainly ideological, but claiming it's less convenient feels odd.

Alifatisk 3y ago
> It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or want to go back. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard elderly people complain about vendors not accepting cash anymore.
EasyMark 3y ago
The nordics will not always be a democracy (same for every country/people), then they will regret it. That may be 10 years from now or 200 years from now.