15 ms·
Pentagon ex-UFO chief says conspiracy theorists in government drive spending
- throwaway743 3y agoKirkpatrick has been so disingenuous and should not be taken by his word.
- zzzeek 3y agofrustrating, because on the one hand, the explanation that all the "UFO whistleblowing" is all just a self-cycling money generator scheme by cranks with government jobs is the most obvious explanation. On the other, if you were a government desperately trying to hide the aliens, this is exactly the kind of spokesperson / story you would come up with to throw everyone off the trail. Nevertheless, reality prevails, ill go with choice A.
- throwaway743 3y agoSo Schumer proposed a major ammendment to the NDAA, and was willfully advised by a "crank" without vetting? And said ammendment was significantly watered down by reps who have big donors within the defense contractor world who have a lot to lose over such legislation, because there's nothing there?
- xbar 3y agoYes?
- GartzenDeHaes 3y agoThere's money to steal, so a politician did something to help their cronies be the ones to steal it.
- aftbit 3y agoIMO the real conspiracy is that when you hear "conspiracy theory", you think UFOs, not Watergate.
- lloeki 3y agoFunny, that exactly sums up one of the plot twists I completely forgot about in the X-Files: secretly set up UFO/UAP events and abductions, feed nutjobs with alien theories by having Mulder&al investigate and leak trickles of info to the likes of Lone Gunmen, all while denying UFO/aliens to further feed the UFO conspiracy theory, all that to divert attention from the actual, very earthly conspiracies (turns out one of them ends up being about actual aliens and The Project, but Smoking Man makes it quite clear how he's using Mulder and the X-Files to the above end and that even fewer conspiracists know about that, with the rest being conned into thinking they sit at the top conning everyone and that there are no aliens)
- mcculley 3y agoYou think that is a conspiracy and not emergent behavior?
- chiefalchemist 3y agoCan't it be both? Can't some small subset of the gov want to cover up the presence of aliens, while others (without the clearance) and their deep-pocket'pocket'ed private industry relatives whip up stories that drive budget / business? If there aliens the number of ppl in gov has to be small[1]. [1] And before someone mentions the secrecy of the Manhattan Project, that was different. No one was going to be a hero for leaking that. It was also different times when most had more faith and trust in the Fed gov.
- filoleg 3y ago> If there aliens the number of ppl in gov has to be small Not trying to nitpick, but what was this supposed to mean? I am genuinely struggling to understand what you were trying to say, so here is the best possible interpretation I could come up with. Please correct me if I got it wrong. Was it something like “If there [are] aliens [that the US government is aware of, then] the number of ppl in gov [who are in the know] has to be small”?
- actionfromafar 3y agoI read it like that.
- chiefalchemist 3y agoYes. I left a key word or two out. Sorry.
- filoleg 3y agoAll good, no worries at all. Just wanted to make sure that this was what you actually meant, and that I didn’t interpret it incorrectly.
- zeroCalories 3y agoIt's not frustrating. Your priors for the odds that aliens have visited earth should be extremely low, and the odds of cranks existing fairly high. Given that, it's not 50/50 cranks/coverup. Intuitively you know it's a tiny probability.
- jbandela1 3y ago> Grusch last year about intact alien vehicles and non-human “biologics”, or biological matter, stored at a remote facility. I have heard from military friends that they have seen and interacted with non-human creatures on US military bases. These creatures even have a star associated with them. They are referred to by scientists as Canis familiaris
- krapp 3y agoAnd they call it the "Dog Star." Coincidence? I think not!
- teddyh 3y agoChildren of the Dog Star <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOHAr9wR86E&list=PL83DE505F4E503C21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOHAr9wR86E&list=PL83DE505F4...>
- yes_man 3y agoYes, I have also heard from my military friends that the creatures live on dihydrogen monoxide, a substance that kills thousands of people a year. The truth is out there
- zzzeek 3y agowhen the antenna on their butt wiggles it means they are transmitting positive messages about the human race to their homeworld. Stay on their good side and the earth remains safe
- ofslidingfeet 3y ago[flagged]
- wolverine876 3y ago[flagged]
- krapp 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pvg 3y ago>Inb4 "lol the New York Post is just part of the conspiracy." I know how you folks are. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- krapp 3y agoPlease, that wasn't even close to a sneer. It was a statement of fact. Read any recent UFO or UAP thread and chances are its crawling with people defending the woo-woo nonsense and denouncing critics and skeptics with far more of a sneer than my comment had.
- pvg 3y agoIt's absolutely a sneer and lame meta and 'statements of fact' can be easily be sneering and lame meta. All comments are better without those and you've been here plenty long and know that as well as anyone. If you have something to say to other commenters, you can reply to, vote on or flag their comments.
- Duanemclemore 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Difwif 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lucasRW 3y ago“They’re some of the same people that have been working behind the scenes with Congress to write legislation,” Kirkpatrick told the In the Room With Peter Bergen podcast. >> Isn't this a conspiracy theory ?
- jerf 3y agoThere is no non-"conspiracy theory" option anymore. Either the aliens are real in some manner and there has been a massive cover-up conspiracy, or they are not, and there has been a pretty significant conspiracy to fake evidence and support for aliens existing. Either way, there is no "everyone's generally nice and is just trying to tell the public the truth and nobody would ever dream of deploying deception as a part of their strategy" that the non-conspiracy theory option seems to entail. A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are.
- thfuran 3y agoHow can you lie without knowing you are?
- jerf 3y agoDepends on whether you consider someone relaying lies that they believe to be the truth a liar. In plain English usage most people use both senses of that pretty freely.
- jvanderbot 3y ago> A lot of people are lying and at least some of them absolutely know they are. You're right. Just a frustrating observation though: It is almost never the case that someone willfully lies, knowing they are fabricating everything. They may lie right now believing it will lead to the truth, or they may lie about their motivations in order to get closer to the truth, etc. The "core group" TFA discusses almost certainly have been lying. But I bet they do believe they are getting closer to the truth, celebrate the wasted money as "progress and publicity" and I bet they don't believe they are lying outright. I bet they think the ends justify the means. Unfortunately, nobody believes they are illogical, evil, or malicious. They are only by definition of opposing what someone else (or everyone else) feels is logical, good, or right.
- wolverine876 3y agoThe essential question is, always, why? Why are they doing it? Obviously, many people participate in the movement to create chaos and a sense of powerlessness through disinformation (the true aim of propaganda), so people don't know what to believe and quit. The Republican Party engages in a lot of it, I assume tactically - always stay on the offensive, keep the enemy reacting, etc. But what about the others? Are they organized? Are they sort-of lone wolves (or small packs) acting on the ideology they learned online? And I think it's been highly effective: I think that two decades ago, taking it seriously would have discredited you for life. Now that we've destroyed institutions and values like science, evidence and rationality, and embraced post-truth, it's within the norm, even encouraged. And almost nobody speaks up for science, evidence, truth. Nobody says it's ridiculous nonsense (for so many reasons); everyone just stands back, reinforcing the sense of chaos and powerlessness. Where are the adults?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pimpampum 3y agoFrom the scientific american article: Second, this narrative has been simmering for years and is largely an outgrowth of a former program at the DOD’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), which was heavily influenced by a group of individuals associated with businessman and longtime ufologist Robert Bigelow, founder of Bigelow Aerospace. Inopen sources, particularly in records available on DIA’s electronic FOIA Reading Room. After the negative response by SECDEF, Senator Reid then enlisted the help of then senator Joseph Lieberman to request that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) set up an SAP for the same purpose. The administrative SAP proposal package was informed by the same individuals who had been associated with AATIP. AARO’s archival research has located the administrative proposal for the DHS SAP, complete with the participants, which has been declassified and is being reviewed for public release. Finally, the key purveyors of this narrative have known one another for decades. In the early 2000s several members of this small group also participated in a study, erroneously characterized (by the same participants) as having been sponsored by the White House, on the possible societal impact of disclosing the existence of extraterrestrials to the public, with the authenticity of the abovementioned concealed government program taken as its baseline assumption. The think tank in question was a “futures” enterprise that often worked on fringe studies, and many of the individuals involved with the study also worked for Bigelow Aerospace in support of the AATIP program.
- taraharris 3y agoI don't know what's going on, but it's clear that there are vast sums of money going into illegal black programs beyond congressional oversight. I strongly suspect that Kirkpatrick's role is to deflect public interest and criticism in order to maintain the status quo. I don't trust a single word he says. Regardless of whether or not there is alien life, our government should be forced to open up its secrets, whatever they may be. We don't need any of this to stay safe.
- wolverine876 3y agoWe can write anything; the differentiator is evidence. Certainly there are programs outside public oversight, but do we have evidence of the vast sums outside Congressional oversight? Where do they get the money if not from Congress? Do you have evidence of Kirkpatrick's role? > our government should be forced to open up its secrets That is generally the law (including the Freedom of Information Act), though there's overclassification by security agencies. Some things need to be classified, obviously, so what exactly are you advocating? How do we improve it?
- taraharris 3y agoWe should repeal the National Security Act of 1947. Nuclear weapons have proliferated to nine nations around the world since the passage of that act. The production of nuclear armaments is clearly limited by political will and industrial power, not knowledge. The act protects a foreign policy establishment that has abused its power to conduct dirty tricks against other nations for decades in order to keep American elites rich and in power. No one is going to invade the American homeland, given the vast oceans separating us from the rest of the world. Repealing that act and removing the foreign policy establishment from power would unwind our vast empire abroad and greatly improve our relations with other nations. I would prefer that we do this cleanly, but unfortunately I think our empire will suffer a far messier fall from power over the coming decades. Empires at this stage flail wildly in their military adventures.
- wolverine876 3y ago
- 127361 3y agoThis UFO investigation stuff is just a giant bandwagon, which people get on to for money, influence and power. I don't think there's any extra-terrestrial activity going on here on Earth, period. Maybe elsewhere in the Universe and probably not in our solar system either.
- eyJpc3MiO 3y ago[flagged]
- rocgf 3y ago[flagged]
- consumer451 3y agoIt's very disappointing, but all evidence indicates that we (a technological species) are alone, in this area, at this time. It even seems possible that we might be the first technological species in our Local Group.[0] If someone could prove me wrong, I would be so excited! Please prove me wrong! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Group
- gfodor 3y ago[flagged]
- consumer451 3y agoI wish I could buy into something like this. But I believe that alien theory, alien simulation theory, etc.. are all our modern form of deism. Humans have a great need to find order from a higher power. I will believe in god(s), aliens, or any other higher power when I am shown irrefutable proof. Until then, we are on our own folks!
- gfodor 3y agoI mean I thought this too but this is the one area, particularly under recent events, that I think it’s reasonable to start trying to come up with good non-prosaic explanations. You’ll probably find an increasingly surprising number of people talking and thinking about this in a serious way, because events seem to be pointing to something that isn’t just smoke and mirrors the entire way down. It’s smoke and mirrors to be sure in many ways. But it’s sufficiently uniquely weird that it is looking increasingly likely there is a significant non-prosaic thing going on here.
- cobrabyte 3y agoThat's what you'd say to discredit people when you don't want the truth to be revealed. Whatever the truth may be.
- DanielBMarkham 3y agoI remain fascinated by UFOs/UAPs. I have been this way since I was a child, although I went from "I want to believe" to "This is an example of people being stupid" and finally my current position. UAPs are intermittent, non-reproducible phenomenon. Life is full of such experiences. Sadly, when these experiences involve extraordinary experiences, they tend to make all of those involved look stupid. Turns out people and organizations don't like looking stupid. The reason National Security is so tied up in this area is that when or if a new weapons system is deployed against the U.S., it's going to involve a lot of these exact kinds of reports. Any investigation into any of them is, in effect, an investigation into how the country learns from strange new things, like the Chinese joining the Korean War. These kinds of public investigations simply cannot occur. I still love these stories, but I love them because they tell us what happens when a large organization comes across really weird stuff it has no labels or processes for. There's no conspiracy here, that's my guess. Maybe a conspiracy of human nature. The UFO/UAP story is going nowhere, and it says a lot more about us than it does about anything in nature that anybody might encounter. ADD: I'm glad Kirkpatrick is getting some reputational payback here. I'll leave my opinions of his essay aside. I strongly support dragging out the Sagan response and banging on it again and again until folks finally focus on the real issues involved. Recommended reading: Hynek's biography, "The Close Encounters Man" https://www.amazon.com/Close-Encounters-Man-World-Believe/dp/0062484176 https://www.amazon.com/Close-Encounters-Man-World-Believe/dp...
- ericb 3y agoIf von Neuman probes are possible, and some percentage of civilizations create them, then at least von Neuman probes should be here. von Neuman probes solve the travel time, cost, and distance objections for ETI even if light speed is the absolute limit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft
- seventytwo 3y agoBig “if”.
- ericb 3y agoWhich one? They all seem more likely than not.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- actionfromafar 3y agoWhy should they be here? That seems a stretch to me. We don't know the motivations by those who could send them.
- thriftwy 3y agoIt makes sense to send them everywhere to have a sensor network wherever you go. The only reason why they may not be out there is because of Great Filter or because we are the first ones in our vicinity (would not be strange as our Universe is fairly young).
- actionfromafar 3y agoOr they are scared of what they might find. Whenever I read "the only reason" I have doubts. How can we be so sure?
- seventytwo 3y agoAn alien visitation would be THE single most significant event to ever happen to humanity. The idea that it would be able to be kept secret is ridiculous.
- thriftwy 3y agoMoreover, ridiculous is that aliens would be content with staying in the closet and at risk of be uncovered, like a lover in cheating wife's closet. Whatever the USG wishes, the first contact will be on the arriving party's terms. This is unless they made some very strong agreement with local governments to keep things secret. Which would be a a sign of a very bad thing for us.
- gfodor 3y agoMy theory is they are real but they’re not aliens. They are another hominid species who live here on Earth. My explanation is actually pretty good if you condition on the assumption that they are real - if you do that, ET is very unlikely comparatively. I can kind of explain everything you see in various ways, some hard to vary, some not.
- juunpp 3y agoLike reptilians or hollow Earth or what?
- gfodor 3y agoSmall humanoid sibling species living in VR pods adapted physically initially for subterranean life but eventually artifically selected for sensory override VR pods. (Hence the large eyes, grey skin, no reproductive organs, absorbitve digestion, and so on.)
- bosquefrio 3y agoInteresting hypothesis. Do you have an essay where these ideas are fully fleshed out?
- rocgf 3y agoWhatever the truth may be, we now have people testifying in Congress - under oath - that the UFO phenomenon is real. David Grusch has gone through the official whistleblower process in order to make this happen, and there have been private briefings with the ICIG and members of Congress, who have given credence to his claims [1]. So while it's difficult to know what the truth is at this point in time, it's either that aliens are real or there are a lot of nutjobs in the US government. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grusch_UFO_whistleblower_claims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grusch_UFO_whistleblower...
- consumer451 3y ago> it's either that aliens are real or there are a lot of nutjobs in the US government. I know that at least one of these things is true. I can prove it. I wish it wasn't the boring one.
- gfodor 3y agoIt’s actually a false dilemma. They’re real, but they’re non-human Earthlings living here in an environment we haven’t yet discovered or stumbled upon is the option few talk about, fits the full body of evidence better than any other explanation, and would prove most everyone wrong in different ways. So I bet that is what is going on. Edit: it’s always funny that I get downvoted for just writing a theory out that is a pretty good one, as though you’re supposed to downvote people for this kind of post. People get really upset by this subject.
- yowzadave 3y agoI don’t think anybody is upset by what you wrote, it just sounds like a nutty theory with no evidence, which doesn’t contribute to an informative discussion.
- gfodor 3y agoLots of people in this thread are speculating about the plausibility of an ET hypothesis, which is far more nutty than what I wrote here. What I wrote here is unorthodox, but an ET hypothesis comparatively is absurd, particularly if you are going to entertain that based on the existing evidence. The existing evidence would not imply ET as much as another Earth species interacting with us. It also can imply that people are crazy or lying, of course, but I'm talking within the realm where we are going to speculate about ET.
- romseb 3y agoIt is sad that out of all the things that happen in this space, this is the news article that gets to the front page. Kirkpatrick has been contradicting himself for months now. Another recent Guardian article is more insightful. There has been a concerted effort to remove very specific parts from a new legislation about the disclosure of non-human intelligence and materials: “If it is the case that there is no substance to the UFO/UAP issue beyond misperceptions, paranoia, delusions, hallucinations, gullibility and disinformation then the government, military and academic organisations need to openly and transparently look under every alleged rock in this topic,” says clinical psychologist Daniel Stubbings of Cardiff Metropolitan University. “But they have chosen to do the exact opposite, which increases the suspicion that there is something to hide.” https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/14/what-happens-if-we-have-been-visited-by-aliens-lied-to-ufos-uaps-grusch-congress https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/14/what-happens...
- gfodor 3y agoKirkpatrick has misrepresented things in the past. His whole thing is very suspicious and weird. I wouldn’t put too much weight on what he is saying here.
- swalsh 3y agoIf he believes what he's saying, sounds like something congress should investigate. Maybe he should testify under oath.
- next_xibalba 3y agoSetting aside the credibility of the source, his claims align with the public facts. In this age of ubiquitous, high-res sensing tech, there has yet to be any credible evidence of extraterrestrial presence on Earth. And his statement that all of the accounts of government cover-up of extraterrestrials being secondhand also aligns with everything I've read. David Grusch's testimony is a great example of this. The bottom line is, we have too many Mulders and not enough Scullys.
- signalblur 3y agoThat’s not actually true - we know for example the USS Nimitz TicTac incident happened and exists (not really a debate). We have evidence of it happening from FLIR Camera of an F/18, an E2 Hawkeye Radar Plane, the SPY-1 Radar from the USS Princeton, the Ballistic Missile Defense system from when they were above 80,000ft All of this data is corroborated and doesn’t appear to be up for debate - at the first UAP hearing Scott Bray the Deputy Director of Navy Intelligence said: [Congressional staffer]: Can you provide us a specific example of an object that can’t be explained as having been human made or natural? [Scott Bray]: I mean the example that I would say is still unresolved, that I think everyone understands quite well is the 2004 incident from [the USS] Nimitz [aircraft carrier]. We have data on that, and it simply remains unresolved… At what point does sufficiently advanced technology become not human? I’d argue the TicTac displays that. Otherwise you have to accept that there is a human organization with the capability of generating 10x the total sum of all Nuclear power generated in the United States in something the size of a 40ft TicTac 20 years ago I mean - I guess it’s possible it’s human, it’s just that it’d make me incredibly sad if so considering whoever has it is letting the world burn. Source on the power requirements: Estimating Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/ I just can’t imagine this being weather personally as whatever it was, starts actively Jamming the F18 (technically an act of war). If you watch the TicTac video you’ll see it when it pops to 99.9 RNG on the display I should note - a list of everyone that has said we have this data: * Former President Obama * House Intel Committee Member Adam Schiff * Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer * Senate Armed Services Committee Member Kirsten Gillibrand * Former DNI John Ratcliff * Deputy Director of Navy Intelligence Scott Bray * Senator Mitt Romney * Senator Marco Rubio * Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley * Former Senate Majority Member Harry Reid And a bunch of other house members - is someone faking a bunch of data and showing it to them?
- swalsh 3y agoWhy is this government officer, speaking just to a newspaper more reliable than the other government officer who spoke under oath? There was legislation to bring transparency to the topic, and it was stripped at the last minute by 2 congressmen heavily funded by the defense industry. If this was all a rouse to get more funding, don't you think they would've loved the legislation?
- TheOtherHobbes 3y agoThe weird thing about UFO lore is the idea that a super-advanced civ would be roaming between the stars in large spinning hubcaps. Or weird glowing orbs. I'm willing to believe it's a big galaxy and we have NFI what's going on out there. But UFO mythology seems very human-scale and not so alien at all.
- consumer451 3y agoIt's techie deism for the modern day.
- tomjakubowski 3y agoHuh. "Simulation theory" is almost indistinguishable from classical deism, if you squint.
- consumer451 3y agoIt is absolutely that! see my previous rant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33580896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33580896 I think that maybe I get really worked up about this because I am still pissed off that Santa Claus wasn't real, or at least that I once believed he was. I am not being facetious.
- moron4hire 3y agoIt's always weirded me out how many ostensibly Christian households teach their children about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc, and let the kids think they are real. Do they not realize they are sewing the first seeds of doubt the children will have in their household religion?
- graemep 3y agoI think the "ostensibly" has a lot to do with it. I am Christian and never told my kids Santa Claus was real. On the other hand there is no harm in stories. I also do not want my kids to believe something just because I believe it. They should think for themselves and to do otherwise it is dishonest. I do agree it is sometimes odd. I found myself trying to explain to a bewildered Sikh guy on Twitter why British society gets upset when people tell kids that Santa Claus is not real but is fine with people telling kids that Jesus is not real.
- INTPenis 3y agoI assume the government always has a certain level of spending on UFOs just because it might be a foreign vessel. But this spending should definitely not increase because of LGM hysteria.
- thayne 3y agoThis seems like just the sort of thing you would say if you were trying to hide something and discredit the whistleblowers. It could also be the truth. Or something in between. But there isn't any particular reason to trust him.
- instagib 3y agoIt’s good to document seeing things such as A. They don’t respond to radio calls (spy planes) B. Show up on radar (broken spy plane) C. No IFF (identify friend or foe) D. Have a team to investigate these occurrences when reported (tell spy agency their equipment is broke) E. Close reports when it’s our own equipment F. Document equipment issues which register faulty indications. It fits a little better when UFO/UAP doesn’t immediately push your mind into tall grey beings in a unique ship or little green men in a flying saucer. These programs have multiple agendas. Push for the interesting one, hide the real one. The amount of money these companies get keeps engineers busy and butts in seats. Look at a few contracts from DIA 2022. https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/3148681/ https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/3148...
- tptacek 3y agoThis is such a common set of circumstances that the Obama administration coined a term for it: "self-licking ice cream cones".
- wolf550e 3y agoIt's older than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licking_ice_cream_cone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licking_ice_cream_cone
- Paradigma11 3y agoIf there really was a conspiracy covering up UFOs and Alien activity there would be people and groups of power believing in this stuff. If there were we would see massive, on the scale of percentages of GDP, activity in recovering this technology in most nations worldwide. We dont see this kind of activity, so......