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Apple is going full frontal attack and saying the DMA creates security risks in the headline, and then repeating that messaging throughout the article. Hard to

Apple is going full frontal attack and saying the DMA creates security risks in the headline, and then repeating that messaging throughout the article. Hard to believe the ECJ is going to stand by and watch Apple convince millions that the EU is working to harm their constituents security but that Apple is here to save them.

rnikander 3y ago
Yup. They could have security by allowing the user to see and control the sandboxing that the operating system imposes on the apps. The app store is not required, but they act like it is.
IshKebab 3y ago
Not only that, they're going to try and scare users away from third party app stores with warning dialogs: > The changes also include new disclosures informing EU users of the risks associated with using alternatives to the App Store’s secure payment processing. There are 22 instances of the word "risks" on that page. Pathetic.
amelius 3y ago
If this creates security risks, then why is the Web somehow ok or otherwise not shut down?
- mixdup 3y ago
  Apple has significant restrictions around web content including the fact that up until now you can only use their rendering engine. Chrome on iOS uses Safari under the hood
  - amelius 3y ago
    So perhaps Apple should put those restrictions around Apps too?
    - mixdup 3y ago
      they did..it's called the App Store
      - amelius 3y ago
        So first it is different, then it is not? In any case, the Internet does not have to pay Apple to be discoverable and accessible.
  - awesomeMilou 3y ago
    Yes, and as we all know, WebKit is the most secure, least exploited browser rendering Engine /s
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    >Chrome on iOS uses Safari under the hood Firefox, too.
- stephenr 3y ago
  Because "the web" runs inside a browser sandbox?
  - dmix 3y ago
    And the web is far more limited programming wise. As much as there’s experimental webgpu and whatever it’s pretty locked down. Phones are with you constantly with GPS, movement, cameras, and microphones regularly accessible by apps, sometimes persistently. It’s also a platform handling SMS and Bluetooth and other weakly secure protocols.
  - amelius 3y ago
    So you are saying that iOS is not a secure sandbox?
    - stephenr 3y ago
      The native runtime environment for iOS is significantly more powerful/capable (i.e. less controlled/limited) than a browser sandbox. It would be pointless to have local apps if it wasn't more capable. That doesn't mean it isn't a sandboxed compared to more traditional computing environments - it just means it's less restrictive than a browser.
      - amelius 3y ago
        Anyway, Apple is conflating the concept of AppStore with ContentFilter. There's no reason why you can't have either one of them, or both from different vendors. Let them provide the bare hardware, and there will be a flourishing market of OS providers, some of which perhaps even more secure than Apple's software offerings.
        stephenr 3y ago
        > Let them provide the bare hardware, and there will be a flourishing market of OS providers, Why are people so obsessed with "forcing" Apple to adopt the same approach that gave us the dumpster tire fire that is Windows? If you don't want a device where the hardware and software were designed to work together, just buy from one of the literal thousands of other vendors who took your approach.
janaagaard 3y ago
It's my understanding that iOS is generally considered a more secure alternative than Android, and that part of this is the app review process, that is part of the App Store. So isn't there at least some truth in that opening this up will create a less secure environment?
- mirsadm 3y ago
  By whom? That simply isn't true.
- jack_pp 3y ago
  Might be confusing privacy with security
- wholinator2 3y ago
  I'll add again that while this may have been true at a point (and was covertly marketed into our brains by big apple) it's just not true anymore. It's honestly scary how often i hear this and yet almost no one can say where they actually heard it.
  - dmix 3y ago
    Maybe if you’re using a Pixel with the latest OS updates but the average person like my mom is using some off the shelf budget Chinese/Korean phone full of apps with spammy ads and confusing interface flows. The privacy settings are confusing and unlike my dad who comfortably uses his iPhone my mom has barely scraped the surface because the Samsung OS UI is such a mess (ie, 2 different messaging apps named Messages came preinstalled) and it’s slow, the UI with fonts scaled up for vision hides entire buttons in 3rd party apps (a joy to debug over the phone) etc. Just this week she had to install a work app for scheduling from Googles Store and got duped into a fake clone that installed 4 other apps with repeated pop up apps emulating a signup wizard. Those non standard androids are far far more worrying and the Google App Store is way less locked down. If my dad was in the EU I’d have to tell him never to install an app using anything but the Apple App Store.
    - 3y ago
repler 3y ago
> Apple is going full frontal attack and saying the DMA creates security risks Because it does create security risks. App code in 3rd party app stores is not going to be reviewed, which means anyone is free to craft a rootkit embedded in an app and release it to a 3rd party app store. Enjoy!
- armada651 3y ago
  So you're saying that human code review by Apple is the only thing protecting your iPhone from apps installing root kits? I never knew that every app gets root access on iOS and that the security model hinged entirely in Apple's control of the App Store.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  If the OS is so shit that a rootkit is so easy to get installed, there's bigger issues at play.
- anhner 3y ago
  > App code in 3rd party app stores is not going to be reviewed, which means anyone is free to craft a rootkit embedded in an app and release it to a 3rd party app store. Oh no! You mean exactly like it has been on a mac for decades?
- Mystery-Machine 3y ago
  You shouldn't be allowed to browse the internet. Everyone can buy a domain and publish any code, without it being reviewed.
thegrimmest 3y ago
Surely this is mathematically true though. More distribution channels and laxer average review processes will mean more malware distributed to users.
- mil22 3y ago
  I think that's kind of the point though - in a free market with sufficient competition, distribution channels would be forced to compete on the quality of their review processes and users would gravitate to the marketplaces that have the best processes and hence the best reputation. So it is not clear that this is true mathematically: you just need one alternate channel with better review processes and for enough users to switch to it for there to be less malware distributed overall. As it is, there is only one channel and no competition, so we don't know what the malware situation would be like in the absence of Apple's monopoly.
  - thegrimmest 3y ago
    But there are many other distribution channels for mobile apps, the Google Play Store, F-Droid, etc. Surely "iOS devices" isn't a "market" in and of itself, and the markets are "mobile apps" and "mobile phones".
    - antiframe 3y ago
      Why isn't iOS devices a market? It seems that's exactly what Apple /wants/ it to be. They built a platform and now want third parties to sell on that platform so they can get their cut. How do you define market, then, if that's not a market?
      - thegrimmest 3y ago
        > Why isn't iOS devices a market? Same reason "McDonalds hamburgers" aren't a market. They're just a branded product within a larger "smartphones" market. > How do you define market, then, if that's not a market? Same way the FTC does: > all goods or services that buyers view as close substitutes https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/mergers/markets https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... An Android is a close substitute for an iPhone, just like a Ford is a close substitute for a Toyota. People switch between them all the time.
fluidcruft 3y ago
Yeah, right. I know there's this tendency in America to worship Europe but I can't help but laugh when anyone suggests a democratic government passes laws that are going to improve security. "We're from the government and we're here to help."
- croniev 3y ago
  The way that you put it here makes it sound like you have trust issues more than a solid understanding of how democracies (like actual democracies) work and how decisions are made in them.
mil22 3y ago
Yes, it's been Apple's modus operandi with the App Store from the start: trick consumers into thinking the App Store being a monopoly is the only thing that can protect them against malware, illicit and questionable app content, pirated software, scams, and fraud. Most consumers understand those concepts and fear those things. Most understand nothing about the economic impact of monopolies and anti-competitive business behavior and the harms they cause consumers in the form of higher prices, lack of innovation, reduced choice, and poorer quality products and services. So Apple plays off those fears by using language consumers understand, making them actually want the very monopoly that is being forced on them and actually harming them while making billions for Apple. It's unethical behavior, no more defensible than Sam Bankman-Fried's effective altruism, a.k.a. "mostly a front." This is all right out of Apple's standard playbook.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >Yes, it's been Apple's modus operandi with the App Store from the start: trick consumers into thinking the App Store being a monopoly is the only thing that can protect them against malware, illicit and questionable app content, pirated software, scams, and fraud. When someone claims he's the only one who can protect the public I immediately see some question marks.
  - porsager 3y ago
    You're talking about the EU and states alike - right?
    - niclo 3y ago
      Or like the United States with their military operations protecting w̶e̶a̶k̶ a̶n̶d̶ o̶p̶p̶r̶e̶s̶s̶e̶d̶ p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ their interests around the world ?
    - oblio 3y ago
      You do know that except for arguably Hungary (and even that's slowly being worked on... it's just really hard), all EU members are democracies and the EU itself is a democratic institution?

rnikander 3y ago

Yup. They could have security by allowing the user to see and control the sandboxing that the operating system imposes on the apps. The app store is not required, but they act like it is.

IshKebab 3y ago

Not only that, they're going to try and scare users away from third party app stores with warning dialogs: > The changes also include new disclosures informing EU users of the risks associated with using alternatives to the App Store’s secure payment processing. There are 22 instances of the word "risks" on that page. Pathetic.

amelius 3y ago

If this creates security risks, then why is the Web somehow ok or otherwise not shut down?

mixdup 3y ago
Apple has significant restrictions around web content including the fact that up until now you can only use their rendering engine. Chrome on iOS uses Safari under the hood
- amelius 3y ago
  So perhaps Apple should put those restrictions around Apps too?
  - mixdup 3y ago
    they did..it's called the App Store
    - amelius 3y ago
      So first it is different, then it is not? In any case, the Internet does not have to pay Apple to be discoverable and accessible.
- awesomeMilou 3y ago
  Yes, and as we all know, WebKit is the most secure, least exploited browser rendering Engine /s
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >Chrome on iOS uses Safari under the hood Firefox, too.
stephenr 3y ago
Because "the web" runs inside a browser sandbox?
- dmix 3y ago
  And the web is far more limited programming wise. As much as there’s experimental webgpu and whatever it’s pretty locked down. Phones are with you constantly with GPS, movement, cameras, and microphones regularly accessible by apps, sometimes persistently. It’s also a platform handling SMS and Bluetooth and other weakly secure protocols.
- amelius 3y ago
  So you are saying that iOS is not a secure sandbox?
  - stephenr 3y ago
    The native runtime environment for iOS is significantly more powerful/capable (i.e. less controlled/limited) than a browser sandbox. It would be pointless to have local apps if it wasn't more capable. That doesn't mean it isn't a sandboxed compared to more traditional computing environments - it just means it's less restrictive than a browser.
    - amelius 3y ago
      Anyway, Apple is conflating the concept of AppStore with ContentFilter. There's no reason why you can't have either one of them, or both from different vendors. Let them provide the bare hardware, and there will be a flourishing market of OS providers, some of which perhaps even more secure than Apple's software offerings.
      - stephenr 3y ago
        > Let them provide the bare hardware, and there will be a flourishing market of OS providers, Why are people so obsessed with "forcing" Apple to adopt the same approach that gave us the dumpster tire fire that is Windows? If you don't want a device where the hardware and software were designed to work together, just buy from one of the literal thousands of other vendors who took your approach.

janaagaard 3y ago

It's my understanding that iOS is generally considered a more secure alternative than Android, and that part of this is the app review process, that is part of the App Store. So isn't there at least some truth in that opening this up will create a less secure environment?

mirsadm 3y ago
By whom? That simply isn't true.
jack_pp 3y ago
Might be confusing privacy with security
wholinator2 3y ago
I'll add again that while this may have been true at a point (and was covertly marketed into our brains by big apple) it's just not true anymore. It's honestly scary how often i hear this and yet almost no one can say where they actually heard it.
- dmix 3y ago
  Maybe if you’re using a Pixel with the latest OS updates but the average person like my mom is using some off the shelf budget Chinese/Korean phone full of apps with spammy ads and confusing interface flows. The privacy settings are confusing and unlike my dad who comfortably uses his iPhone my mom has barely scraped the surface because the Samsung OS UI is such a mess (ie, 2 different messaging apps named Messages came preinstalled) and it’s slow, the UI with fonts scaled up for vision hides entire buttons in 3rd party apps (a joy to debug over the phone) etc. Just this week she had to install a work app for scheduling from Googles Store and got duped into a fake clone that installed 4 other apps with repeated pop up apps emulating a signup wizard. Those non standard androids are far far more worrying and the Google App Store is way less locked down. If my dad was in the EU I’d have to tell him never to install an app using anything but the Apple App Store.
  - 3y ago

repler 3y ago

> Apple is going full frontal attack and saying the DMA creates security risks Because it does create security risks. App code in 3rd party app stores is not going to be reviewed, which means anyone is free to craft a rootkit embedded in an app and release it to a 3rd party app store. Enjoy!

armada651 3y ago
So you're saying that human code review by Apple is the only thing protecting your iPhone from apps installing root kits? I never knew that every app gets root access on iOS and that the security model hinged entirely in Apple's control of the App Store.
sensanaty 3y ago
If the OS is so shit that a rootkit is so easy to get installed, there's bigger issues at play.
anhner 3y ago
> App code in 3rd party app stores is not going to be reviewed, which means anyone is free to craft a rootkit embedded in an app and release it to a 3rd party app store. Oh no! You mean exactly like it has been on a mac for decades?
Mystery-Machine 3y ago
You shouldn't be allowed to browse the internet. Everyone can buy a domain and publish any code, without it being reviewed.

thegrimmest 3y ago

Surely this is mathematically true though. More distribution channels and laxer average review processes will mean more malware distributed to users.

mil22 3y ago
I think that's kind of the point though - in a free market with sufficient competition, distribution channels would be forced to compete on the quality of their review processes and users would gravitate to the marketplaces that have the best processes and hence the best reputation. So it is not clear that this is true mathematically: you just need one alternate channel with better review processes and for enough users to switch to it for there to be less malware distributed overall. As it is, there is only one channel and no competition, so we don't know what the malware situation would be like in the absence of Apple's monopoly.
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  But there are many other distribution channels for mobile apps, the Google Play Store, F-Droid, etc. Surely "iOS devices" isn't a "market" in and of itself, and the markets are "mobile apps" and "mobile phones".
  - antiframe 3y ago
    Why isn't iOS devices a market? It seems that's exactly what Apple /wants/ it to be. They built a platform and now want third parties to sell on that platform so they can get their cut. How do you define market, then, if that's not a market?
    - thegrimmest 3y ago
      > Why isn't iOS devices a market? Same reason "McDonalds hamburgers" aren't a market. They're just a branded product within a larger "smartphones" market. > How do you define market, then, if that's not a market? Same way the FTC does: > all goods or services that buyers view as close substitutes https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/mergers/markets https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... An Android is a close substitute for an iPhone, just like a Ford is a close substitute for a Toyota. People switch between them all the time.

fluidcruft 3y ago

Yeah, right. I know there's this tendency in America to worship Europe but I can't help but laugh when anyone suggests a democratic government passes laws that are going to improve security. "We're from the government and we're here to help."

croniev 3y ago
The way that you put it here makes it sound like you have trust issues more than a solid understanding of how democracies (like actual democracies) work and how decisions are made in them.

mil22 3y ago

Yes, it's been Apple's modus operandi with the App Store from the start: trick consumers into thinking the App Store being a monopoly is the only thing that can protect them against malware, illicit and questionable app content, pirated software, scams, and fraud. Most consumers understand those concepts and fear those things. Most understand nothing about the economic impact of monopolies and anti-competitive business behavior and the harms they cause consumers in the form of higher prices, lack of innovation, reduced choice, and poorer quality products and services. So Apple plays off those fears by using language consumers understand, making them actually want the very monopoly that is being forced on them and actually harming them while making billions for Apple. It's unethical behavior, no more defensible than Sam Bankman-Fried's effective altruism, a.k.a. "mostly a front." This is all right out of Apple's standard playbook.

DeathArrow 3y ago
>Yes, it's been Apple's modus operandi with the App Store from the start: trick consumers into thinking the App Store being a monopoly is the only thing that can protect them against malware, illicit and questionable app content, pirated software, scams, and fraud. When someone claims he's the only one who can protect the public I immediately see some question marks.
- porsager 3y ago
  You're talking about the EU and states alike - right?
  - niclo 3y ago
    Or like the United States with their military operations protecting w̶e̶a̶k̶ a̶n̶d̶ o̶p̶p̶r̶e̶s̶s̶e̶d̶ p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ their interests around the world ?
  - oblio 3y ago
    You do know that except for arguably Hungary (and even that's slowly being worked on... it's just really hard), all EU members are democracies and the EU itself is a democratic institution?