8 ms·

My 12 year old and I made a little game in Godot and it turned out pretty playable. I think in her peer group the second most popular device after the iPhone i

My 12 year old and I made a little game in Godot and it turned out pretty playable. I think in her peer group the second most popular device after the iPhone is the Switch. It would be incredibly cool if we could get our game to run there. I already found two GitHub repos with Godot ports, and this RAWRLAB announcement confirms that it will be doable on a technical level. However, I reckon that we do not qualify for authorized Nintendo Switch developer. What would be the easiest way to get the game running on just our Switch? I already ordered a Mig Switch and a dumper[1], but I'm not sure if this is the best way to go. [1] https://migswitch.store/ https://migswitch.store/

falker 3y ago
The migswitch will not allow you to run unsigned code, only clones of official cartridges. Get an old “unpatched” v1 switch or newer with a rp2040 modchip.
lastgeniusua 3y ago
I'm not sure the Mig Switch will allow you to play homebrew, it is designed to replicate the (apparently reverse-engineered) security protocol of game cards signed by Nintendo. The Github repos you've seen previously are probably your best bet, they're designed for homebrew development, but to launch these you'd need to mod your Switch: with an unpatched original model (could easily be verified on https://ismyswitchpatched.com/ https://ismyswitchpatched.com/) it's as easy as connecting two pins with a paperclip and injecting a USB payload with your PC, with patched later models this requires a modchip soldered onto the board.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Even with that though, home-brew games are almost nonexistent on the Switch, or extremely minimal. Having the ability to launch a game with a modded Switch, doesn't mean you have access to the SDK, or the documentation. Without those things, you really can't write any useful programs. It's like gaining access to the cockpit of a plane, and having no manual or labels on what all the buttons do. If you truly want to develop a Switch game, you need the SDK, and dev hardware is basically necessary as well. That's only coming from a deal with Nintendo.
  - traverseda 3y ago
    You can run full ubuntu on it, so I guess people don't see much need for "homebrew". You can just run any game that compiles for arm linux on it.
  - derefr 3y ago
    > Having the ability to launch a game with a modded Switch, doesn't mean you have access to the SDK, or the documentation. The very same websites and forums and Discord servers where the people who come up with jailbreaks for the Switch hang out, can also point you to leaked copies of SDKs, and ways to use these with a jailbroken switch and/or an emulator like Yuzu. (After all, while most published console homebrew — including jailbreaks — use ground-up rewrites of support libraries, it's a lot easier to tinker on Proof-of-Concepts for exploit chains using the official SDK.) > and dev hardware is basically necessary as well. That's only coming from a deal with Nintendo. Funny enough, you can find all sorts of dev hardware for old consoles on eBay... and yes, that's despite all such kits being closed-lifecycle systems that are supposed to be returned to the OEM when no longer used. (I think the main way these make it out into the market, is through the company that owns them going bankrupt and getting its assets liquidated.)
    - kmeisthax 3y ago
      Modern console devkits don't boot unless they have an Internet connection through the manufacturer's VPN, so buying devkits on eBay is useless now. They started doing this with the Xbox One. The reason why they did this is because of leakers. The Xbox 360's devkits connected to a separate Xbox Live network called PartnerNet, and anyone who wanted to test Xbox Live functionality - e.g. buying games or DLC - needed to actually upload their game to PartnerNet. This meant that everyone with a devkit got full access to a lot of prerelease games. There were rings of people with devkits leaking games for gamer clout. The way they got access to the hardware was interesting. Microsoft actually didn't let liquidators touch the consoles[0], but they still needed to dispose of them. The electronics recyclers Microsoft hired didn't do a good job of this, so there was a cottage industry of people taking debug fused CPUs off destroyed motherboards and swapping them onto retail boards. This would give you something identical to a low-spec devkit that lets you run unsigned code and connect to PartnerNet, but doesn't have any of the crazier debug capabilities useful for development. [0] Notably, the state of Rhode Island tried liquidating the devkits of the Kingdoms of Amalur developers and got stopped by Microsoft
realslimjd 3y ago
Nintendo really wanted to encourage indie gaming on the Switch, so any individual can register to be an authorized developer: https://developer.nintendo.com/ https://developer.nintendo.com/.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  I saw that initially and was encouraged, but my further research suggests that you need to buy a development kit about which I could find virtually no info. I can only assume that it is expensive.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    It’s not going to be crazy but you should expect to spend like a $1000 total for everything and have a real company set up
  - nogridbag 3y ago
    It looks like a Switch dev kit is only ~$450 from Googling. I believe dev kits in the past were far much expensive.
    - troupo 3y ago
      This is the insanity I don't understand. Developing for desktop systems is essentially free. Developing for iOS devices is $99 a year (plus store commission) for literally anyone. Developing for consoles? Oh, you have to be a business entity, you have to pass approval process, you have to buy a dev kit, you have to... And then also pay a commission.
      - 3836293648 3y ago
        It's because they want(ed) to keep a higher standard of quality on their store and keep homebrewers and cheaters away.
        3y ago
stavros 3y ago
How does the Mig Switch site not say at all what the product is? I clicked around for two minutes and still have no clue what it is or does.
- weberer 3y ago
  It is a flashcard. It lets you load copies of games onto a SD card and the Switch will read them as official cartridges. The site mentions that its only for backups of your own purchased games, but most people buy them for piracy.
  - stavros 3y ago
    That's very interesting, thanks, I didn't realize you could load downloaded games onto a Switch like that. I imagined they have some sort of hardware verification.
    - traverseda 3y ago
      They do, this is a new and exciting product, likely with an FPGA built in to bypass those hardware locks.
  - sureglymop 3y ago
    Overall this is very interesting. The game switching mechanism seems a bit fiddly though and I hope there will be a version with a button. I wouldn't be surprised though if the whole operation will be shut down completely by Nintendo so it might not be a bad idea to buy one. The same thing happened with the DragonInjector (small payload runner for jailbroken switches that fits in the cartridge slot).
- traverseda 3y ago
  Well one of it's main uses is playing pirated nintendo switch games, which they're not going to advertise.
  - stavros 3y ago
jchw 3y ago
If you're dealing with a Nintendo Switch that has the RCM exploit, that is probably the easiest path to getting unsigned code. I think Mig Switch is probably only useful for commercial game backups and piracy. I have only used the RCM exploit to boot Linux, but I believe you can also use it to boot custom firmware like Atmosphere, and presumably that is the path to which you could see your own games running in Horizon.
fxtentacle 3y ago
Just email Nintendo. They sometimes make exceptions for interesting indie developers and/or hobbyists. And the dev kits are affordable.
gundamdoubleO 3y ago
I wouldn't recommend using the mig unless you're willing to risk a console ban from all online services (if you care about that).
joenot443 3y ago
Your best bet would be to buy an unpatched Switch from eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144952360896 https://www.ebay.com/itm/144952360896, etc), make or purchase an RCM jig, and dive into the homebrew scene. GbaTemp is a good place to start. Outside of buying an official dev kit, I think that may be your only option.
torginus 3y ago
I honestly don't get why console makers get a boner at the thought of disallowing third party software. What do they gain out of this? With proper security protocols you can sandbox your application well enough that hackers shouldn't be able to get to the OS. And if they do find an exploit, the vendor can always force an OS upgrade, and prevent downgrades with hardware fuses, with new games requiring the latest OS. It's not like console vendors aren't doing all this right now.
- djur 3y ago
  Making piracy more difficult, primarily.
  - georgeecollins 3y ago
    I think that is right, but I also think that quality control is very important to console manufacturers, particularly Nintendo. You don't think about it so much because the consoles haven't changed that much in market position in years. There is lore that bad quality software destroyed the 2600. Battles SEGA and Nintendo, SEGA and Sony, Sony and MSFT really depended a lot on the quality of titles and the users experience. So they tend to want to control the experience more then say Google or Apple do on the phone. You can have shitty apps on a phone, but its a much bigger problem for a console.
- ranger207 3y ago
  It's largely the same reasons Apple doesn't want alternative app stores on their phones
- ook 3y ago
  Royalties. Quality Control. Brand Alignment (historically a big deal for Nintendo). Scheduling input. Security by obscurity.
- araes 3y ago
  Tragedy of the commons. By making the barrier to entry high, it means that only significantly capitalized businesses with significant assets to wager and lose can actually publish anything. It means that there's (less) app spam, because not every couch publisher can type "ChatGPT, make me a game with the default Unity assets."
Retr0id 3y ago
I'd recommend canceling your Mig Switch order. First and foremost, it financially supports some very sketchy players in the commercial piracy (under)world. Secondly, it won't let you play homebrew games - only officially signed nintendo software. Thirdly, you'll have to keep your console offline forever, if you plan to use it - you can bet Nintendo will start revoking cart certificates and banning consoles at the first opportunity (each genuine cartridge is uniquely identifiable). We have completely free solutions to both """backups""" and homebrew. Your best bet is to find a cheap model with an unpatched bootrom, and your second best bet is to install an rp2040-based glitching modchip (or find someone to install it for you, if you're not comfortable with microsoldering).
- graphe 3y ago
  What online switch game is worth playing? I'm sure the mig will be decrypted, and they will just fake the signature for the homebrew games. I think that's how some of the older homebrew worked. The scene is pretty dead since smartphones exist though. I agree he should just get an old one but aside from maybe not liking the mig guys I don't see a problem with the product. The amount of blood from mining in Africa for my minerals probably isn't too moral either.
  - Retr0id 3y ago
    > just fake the signature That's not how cryptography works.
    - graphe 3y ago
      Can you explain how it works? I read a bit here. https://wololo.net/2024/01/10/it-appears-team-xecuter-are-back-with-the-mig-switch-flashcart/ https://wololo.net/2024/01/10/it-appears-team-xecuter-are-ba... it seems you can use different game certs to make it launch.
      - Retr0id 3y ago
        Each physical cart has a unique certificate, signed by a private key held by Nintendo. That certificate is verified locally by the console, against a public key in the firmware. Without CFW, you have no way to bypass that signature verification. In short, the flashcart works by making a full clone of the cart, cert and all. The console doesn't know it's not talking to an original game. That is, until Nintendo's servers notice multiple consoles playing the "same" cartridge at the same time. If you really are only making and playing backups of your own games then you'd probably be fine, but I don't think anyone really buys these products with that use case in mind.
punkybr3wster 3y ago
Unrelated but I’m kind of terrified what the mig is going to do to the market. Crazy piece of tech but the signed carts getting cloned are going to get real interesting real fast.
DeltaWhy 3y ago
Others have commented on homebrew, but there are a couple "game engines" available for the Switch that don't require modding. Nintendo released their own, Game Maker Garage, which uses a block-based coding environment. There are also two I know of that use a more traditional programming language: SmileBASIC and Fuze. Both are similar to PICO-8 or other "fantasy consoles" where you get a full environment that runs on-device, with a code editor, tools for editing sprites, tile maps, music, and sounds, and a library of stock assets. Fuze also has a cheap "player" app so your kid's friends wouldn't need to buy the full app to play anything she makes. I've only poked around them a bit, but they seem like pretty capable environments that might be a good option for a kid that's interested in programming. The obvious limitation is that you're locked in to that platform - as far as I can tell there's no way to run your games on PC.

falker 3y ago

The migswitch will not allow you to run unsigned code, only clones of official cartridges. Get an old “unpatched” v1 switch or newer with a rp2040 modchip.

lastgeniusua 3y ago

I'm not sure the Mig Switch will allow you to play homebrew, it is designed to replicate the (apparently reverse-engineered) security protocol of game cards signed by Nintendo. The Github repos you've seen previously are probably your best bet, they're designed for homebrew development, but to launch these you'd need to mod your Switch: with an unpatched original model (could easily be verified on https://ismyswitchpatched.com/ https://ismyswitchpatched.com/) it's as easy as connecting two pins with a paperclip and injecting a USB payload with your PC, with patched later models this requires a modchip soldered onto the board.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Even with that though, home-brew games are almost nonexistent on the Switch, or extremely minimal. Having the ability to launch a game with a modded Switch, doesn't mean you have access to the SDK, or the documentation. Without those things, you really can't write any useful programs. It's like gaining access to the cockpit of a plane, and having no manual or labels on what all the buttons do. If you truly want to develop a Switch game, you need the SDK, and dev hardware is basically necessary as well. That's only coming from a deal with Nintendo.
- traverseda 3y ago
  You can run full ubuntu on it, so I guess people don't see much need for "homebrew". You can just run any game that compiles for arm linux on it.
- derefr 3y ago
  > Having the ability to launch a game with a modded Switch, doesn't mean you have access to the SDK, or the documentation. The very same websites and forums and Discord servers where the people who come up with jailbreaks for the Switch hang out, can also point you to leaked copies of SDKs, and ways to use these with a jailbroken switch and/or an emulator like Yuzu. (After all, while most published console homebrew — including jailbreaks — use ground-up rewrites of support libraries, it's a lot easier to tinker on Proof-of-Concepts for exploit chains using the official SDK.) > and dev hardware is basically necessary as well. That's only coming from a deal with Nintendo. Funny enough, you can find all sorts of dev hardware for old consoles on eBay... and yes, that's despite all such kits being closed-lifecycle systems that are supposed to be returned to the OEM when no longer used. (I think the main way these make it out into the market, is through the company that owns them going bankrupt and getting its assets liquidated.)
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    Modern console devkits don't boot unless they have an Internet connection through the manufacturer's VPN, so buying devkits on eBay is useless now. They started doing this with the Xbox One. The reason why they did this is because of leakers. The Xbox 360's devkits connected to a separate Xbox Live network called PartnerNet, and anyone who wanted to test Xbox Live functionality - e.g. buying games or DLC - needed to actually upload their game to PartnerNet. This meant that everyone with a devkit got full access to a lot of prerelease games. There were rings of people with devkits leaking games for gamer clout. The way they got access to the hardware was interesting. Microsoft actually didn't let liquidators touch the consoles[0], but they still needed to dispose of them. The electronics recyclers Microsoft hired didn't do a good job of this, so there was a cottage industry of people taking debug fused CPUs off destroyed motherboards and swapping them onto retail boards. This would give you something identical to a low-spec devkit that lets you run unsigned code and connect to PartnerNet, but doesn't have any of the crazier debug capabilities useful for development. [0] Notably, the state of Rhode Island tried liquidating the devkits of the Kingdoms of Amalur developers and got stopped by Microsoft

realslimjd 3y ago

Nintendo really wanted to encourage indie gaming on the Switch, so any individual can register to be an authorized developer: https://developer.nintendo.com/ https://developer.nintendo.com/.

weinzierl 3y ago
I saw that initially and was encouraged, but my further research suggests that you need to buy a development kit about which I could find virtually no info. I can only assume that it is expensive.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  It’s not going to be crazy but you should expect to spend like a $1000 total for everything and have a real company set up
- nogridbag 3y ago
  It looks like a Switch dev kit is only ~$450 from Googling. I believe dev kits in the past were far much expensive.
  - troupo 3y ago
    This is the insanity I don't understand. Developing for desktop systems is essentially free. Developing for iOS devices is $99 a year (plus store commission) for literally anyone. Developing for consoles? Oh, you have to be a business entity, you have to pass approval process, you have to buy a dev kit, you have to... And then also pay a commission.
    - 3836293648 3y ago
      It's because they want(ed) to keep a higher standard of quality on their store and keep homebrewers and cheaters away.
      - 3y ago

stavros 3y ago

How does the Mig Switch site not say at all what the product is? I clicked around for two minutes and still have no clue what it is or does.

weberer 3y ago
It is a flashcard. It lets you load copies of games onto a SD card and the Switch will read them as official cartridges. The site mentions that its only for backups of your own purchased games, but most people buy them for piracy.
- stavros 3y ago
  That's very interesting, thanks, I didn't realize you could load downloaded games onto a Switch like that. I imagined they have some sort of hardware verification.
  - traverseda 3y ago
    They do, this is a new and exciting product, likely with an FPGA built in to bypass those hardware locks.
- sureglymop 3y ago
  Overall this is very interesting. The game switching mechanism seems a bit fiddly though and I hope there will be a version with a button. I wouldn't be surprised though if the whole operation will be shut down completely by Nintendo so it might not be a bad idea to buy one. The same thing happened with the DragonInjector (small payload runner for jailbroken switches that fits in the cartridge slot).
traverseda 3y ago
Well one of it's main uses is playing pirated nintendo switch games, which they're not going to advertise.
- stavros 3y ago

jchw 3y ago

If you're dealing with a Nintendo Switch that has the RCM exploit, that is probably the easiest path to getting unsigned code. I think Mig Switch is probably only useful for commercial game backups and piracy. I have only used the RCM exploit to boot Linux, but I believe you can also use it to boot custom firmware like Atmosphere, and presumably that is the path to which you could see your own games running in Horizon.

fxtentacle 3y ago

Just email Nintendo. They sometimes make exceptions for interesting indie developers and/or hobbyists. And the dev kits are affordable.

gundamdoubleO 3y ago

I wouldn't recommend using the mig unless you're willing to risk a console ban from all online services (if you care about that).

joenot443 3y ago

Your best bet would be to buy an unpatched Switch from eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144952360896 https://www.ebay.com/itm/144952360896, etc), make or purchase an RCM jig, and dive into the homebrew scene. GbaTemp is a good place to start. Outside of buying an official dev kit, I think that may be your only option.

torginus 3y ago

I honestly don't get why console makers get a boner at the thought of disallowing third party software. What do they gain out of this? With proper security protocols you can sandbox your application well enough that hackers shouldn't be able to get to the OS. And if they do find an exploit, the vendor can always force an OS upgrade, and prevent downgrades with hardware fuses, with new games requiring the latest OS. It's not like console vendors aren't doing all this right now.

djur 3y ago
Making piracy more difficult, primarily.
- georgeecollins 3y ago
  I think that is right, but I also think that quality control is very important to console manufacturers, particularly Nintendo. You don't think about it so much because the consoles haven't changed that much in market position in years. There is lore that bad quality software destroyed the 2600. Battles SEGA and Nintendo, SEGA and Sony, Sony and MSFT really depended a lot on the quality of titles and the users experience. So they tend to want to control the experience more then say Google or Apple do on the phone. You can have shitty apps on a phone, but its a much bigger problem for a console.
ranger207 3y ago
It's largely the same reasons Apple doesn't want alternative app stores on their phones
ook 3y ago
Royalties. Quality Control. Brand Alignment (historically a big deal for Nintendo). Scheduling input. Security by obscurity.
araes 3y ago
Tragedy of the commons. By making the barrier to entry high, it means that only significantly capitalized businesses with significant assets to wager and lose can actually publish anything. It means that there's (less) app spam, because not every couch publisher can type "ChatGPT, make me a game with the default Unity assets."

Retr0id 3y ago

I'd recommend canceling your Mig Switch order. First and foremost, it financially supports some very sketchy players in the commercial piracy (under)world. Secondly, it won't let you play homebrew games - only officially signed nintendo software. Thirdly, you'll have to keep your console offline forever, if you plan to use it - you can bet Nintendo will start revoking cart certificates and banning consoles at the first opportunity (each genuine cartridge is uniquely identifiable). We have completely free solutions to both """backups""" and homebrew. Your best bet is to find a cheap model with an unpatched bootrom, and your second best bet is to install an rp2040-based glitching modchip (or find someone to install it for you, if you're not comfortable with microsoldering).

graphe 3y ago
What online switch game is worth playing? I'm sure the mig will be decrypted, and they will just fake the signature for the homebrew games. I think that's how some of the older homebrew worked. The scene is pretty dead since smartphones exist though. I agree he should just get an old one but aside from maybe not liking the mig guys I don't see a problem with the product. The amount of blood from mining in Africa for my minerals probably isn't too moral either.
- Retr0id 3y ago
  > just fake the signature That's not how cryptography works.
  - graphe 3y ago
    Can you explain how it works? I read a bit here. https://wololo.net/2024/01/10/it-appears-team-xecuter-are-back-with-the-mig-switch-flashcart/ https://wololo.net/2024/01/10/it-appears-team-xecuter-are-ba... it seems you can use different game certs to make it launch.
    - Retr0id 3y ago
      Each physical cart has a unique certificate, signed by a private key held by Nintendo. That certificate is verified locally by the console, against a public key in the firmware. Without CFW, you have no way to bypass that signature verification. In short, the flashcart works by making a full clone of the cart, cert and all. The console doesn't know it's not talking to an original game. That is, until Nintendo's servers notice multiple consoles playing the "same" cartridge at the same time. If you really are only making and playing backups of your own games then you'd probably be fine, but I don't think anyone really buys these products with that use case in mind.

punkybr3wster 3y ago

Unrelated but I’m kind of terrified what the mig is going to do to the market. Crazy piece of tech but the signed carts getting cloned are going to get real interesting real fast.

DeltaWhy 3y ago

Others have commented on homebrew, but there are a couple "game engines" available for the Switch that don't require modding. Nintendo released their own, Game Maker Garage, which uses a block-based coding environment. There are also two I know of that use a more traditional programming language: SmileBASIC and Fuze. Both are similar to PICO-8 or other "fantasy consoles" where you get a full environment that runs on-device, with a code editor, tools for editing sprites, tile maps, music, and sounds, and a library of stock assets. Fuze also has a cheap "player" app so your kid's friends wouldn't need to buy the full app to play anything she makes. I've only poked around them a bit, but they seem like pretty capable environments that might be a good option for a kid that's interested in programming. The obvious limitation is that you're locked in to that platform - as far as I can tell there's no way to run your games on PC.