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Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age
- callamdelaney 3y agoPaywall
- idopmstuff 3y agohttps://archive.is/WTVrj https://archive.is/WTVrj
- Jeff_Brown 3y agotl;dr: The older ones are better able to fight bacteria, and have a "lower ratio of neutrophils to lymphocytes in the blood", which ratio indicates stress. They evolved to live a long time because good breeding conditions are rare. No word on biochemical mechanisms.
- adrianvoica 3y agoThat's because they drink a lot of water, and everybody knows water is good for you. :)))
- 6d6b73 3y agoOr maybe that physican of the Chinese emperor was right that mercury is the key to immortality?
- b112 3y agoWait, is it? The FDA lied about masks, and bleach, and now mercury? Do you know where I can get some?
- taway_6PplYu5 3y agoThe trick is you need to filter it through asbestos before you drink it.
- InSteady 3y agoKindly consider taking these mediocre jokes back to reddit, all of you.
- MarkusQ 3y agoNah, it's the fish oil that does it.
- j16sdiz 3y ago> These calcium carbonate structures, which allow fish to hear and sense vibrations in the water, form a new layer each year that can be read somewhat like tree rings. Each time I read dating method like these, I wonder how stable these method are. Sure they are sensitive to water temperature, right? We have not-so-long-term climate changes, periodic solar storms and irregular volcano eruption.. All these are affect water temperture...
- taway_6PplYu5 3y agoWait, so you are saying that over the course of 85 years, we've had enough volcanic eruptions to disrupt the counting of the equivalent of tree rings in fish bones, in a lake in Arizona? When we KNOW when the fish were first put there? Has Arizona had that many volcanic eruptions in the 20th century which we somehow forgot to notice, but were still strong enough to disrupt the fish? https://tucson.com/news/local/environment/old-fish-in-arizona-lake/article_2f62ca68-7e4f-11ee-92f6-fb764b64263f.html https://tucson.com/news/local/environment/old-fish-in-arizon... Just over a century ago, several hundred game fish raised in ponds in Iowa were hauled across the country by rail to be released into Arizona’s newly dammed Salt River. A recent study suggests some of those transplanted buffalofish are still alive today in the waters of Apache Lake. Not their descendants. Not members of the same species. The same individual fish that were sent west in 1918, as World War I was winding down in Europe during Woodrow Wilson’s second term as president.
- MostlyStable 3y agoYes, they are susceptible to temperature. Seasonal temperature changes are mostly what causes them in the first place. Additionally, researchers have used water temperature to create otolith barcodes in captive fish before release. Otolith bands are the result of seasonal changes in growth rate, which is highly trusted to temperature and is why it's a less reliable technique in tropical or deep water species. That getting said, climate change and other things are unlikely to overwhelm the seasonal cycles. Yes, it's gotten warmer, but it's still colder in winter. It's also preferable to have validation for a given taxa, but i wouldn't expect that particular worry to be the failure more.
- bestouff 3y ago> In one study, bigmouth buffalo had stronger immune systems than younger fish. Or maybe only fishes with a stronger immune system get older ?
- crazydoggers 3y agoSelection bias ~= natural selection. If bigmouth buffalo procreate for more years because they live longer with stronger immune systems, then they will eventually make up the majority of the population.
- np_tedious 3y agoSo long as they remain capable of reproduction in those later years
- baxtr 3y agoIs that so? I thought it’s enough if they provide an advantage for their genes. Maybe healthier older fish protect their offspring more effectively.
- crazydoggers 3y agoYes, you’re 100% correct. You’ve described kin selection. So if grandparent fish can somehow help their grandchildren procreate more, then that can be selected for. I’ve heard of territory defense helping with fish, but no idea about the fish mentioned specifically. Also to the previous comment, I think there’s already a fair bit of evidence that older larger fish do continue to breed, (hence throwing back the bigger fish breeders). But if they stop breeding, and there is no kin selection; then yes, natural selection wouldn’t play a role.
- DelaneyM 3y agoOr if they care for their descendants in their later years. (Not saying fish do this, though I wouldn’t be surprised if giant elder fish clear out predators. A lot of people forget this bit but it’s suspected of being a big factor in insect and lobster longevity, which both capable of recognizing their offspring and not being territorial to their presence.)
- pingou 3y ago"The otolith analysis revealed that about 90 percent of Apache Lake’s buffalofishes were more than 85 years old". That sounds very fishy. Perhaps they just have some sort of genetic code that make them create those new layers of calcium carbonate structures more often than once a year.
- inciampati 3y agoThis is not "genetic code"!
- MostlyStable 3y agoIt is important to validate any aging method, including otoliths, and there have been cases of system misaging. The fin ray and scale based ages used in West Coast ground fishery management in the 80s resulted in systemic under aging that contributed to the over fishing and collapse of multiple rockfish species, for example. But otoliths in temperate fish species are generally one of the most consistent and reliable aging methods across multiple taxa. So hopefully otolith aging has been validated for this species in particular or at least a closely related one, but if not it's more likely than not reasonably reliable. As for the population dynamics, it's not actually necessarily that strange. For many species, mortality occurs almost entirely in the early life history. Once fish escape that period, they are very unlikely to die. This can take in exactly this kind of dynamic were very few young fish are alive at any one point and most of the extent fish are very old.
- pvaldes 3y ago> otoliths in temperate fish species are generally one of the most consistent and reliable aging methods Ha ha ha haaaa!! Sorry, but that claim was hilarious. I had the (lets call it) "pleasure" to read otoliths in the past, and consistent and reliable is not how I would describe it. Not even close. For most species it just happens that nobody validated the system first. This means that everybody extrapolates, but nobody really knows how many rings are formed each year. But "oh, that fish lived for 800 years"... highly publishable
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- fb03 3y agoThat is beyond amazing to me. As a layperson in biology related stuff, I'd like to ask: How do scientists estimate the age of non-human animals?
- rpmisms 3y agoFor some fish, you can count the rings on their scales like a tree.
- fb03 3y agoThank you for the reply! Other repliers answered that I should look up "Otoliths", which is the bony structure in the ear canal of some fish that can be used to count these rings. Awesome info, everyone
- momento 3y agoLook up Otoliths. It’s a bone in the ear of fish that is commonly used for aging.
- fb03 3y agoThank you for the info and the appropriate term. I will research more about this! Time for some wikipedia deep dives!
- MostlyStable 3y agoOtoliths are calcium carbonate structures that form in the heads of fishes that help with balance and orientation. Humans actually have similar things in their ear canals, they just don't aggregate and it's more like sand. These structured grow with the fish and seasonal changes in growth rate cause lighter and darker alternating bands, similar to tree rings. When prepared correctly, these bands can be viewed and counted inter s microscope. Similar methods are used in fin rays and spines, scales, and vertebrae, although otoliths are generally considered the gold standard
- fb03 3y ago
- Symmetry 3y agoIt's not clear from the article but animals can generally live quite a bit longer than you'd expect if they continue to grow for their entire life, which is true for some types of fish. Gunk that builds up inside or between cells gets redistributed over larger areas, as do cells that become senescent. And larger size means more space for memory T cells. Those are only some aspects of aging of course.
- thfuran 3y agoDon't cancer rates tend to correlate positively with number of cells?
- BiteCode_dev 3y agoNot for whales so YMMV.
- thfuran 3y agoIt's not consistent across species because different species have different mechanisms for averting tumor growth. But within species (certainly among humans, and I'm pretty sure also among others), more cells means more opportunities for something to go wrong and so more cancer.
- feedsmgmt 3y agoIsn't that because the ocean water blocks radiation?
- swayvil 3y agoIt's all the cardio. Fish do cardio 24-7 their whole life. Therefore older=better.
- b112 3y agoMost fish (non domesticated) I've seen, tend to find places to hide while sleeping. Rocks, crevasses, in plants. Are cattle doing cardio because they're standing while sleeping? I see what you're saying, but fish don't have to do a lot to station keep.
- pvaldes 3y agowell said, Catostomus are carps that remain still in the bottom a lot of time. They are not big swimmers. Their main concern is to suck a rock with enough force to stand their ground against currents. Remaining in waters with a lot of oxygen, that just travel straight to your gills, is like a holiday for the heart.
- InSteady 3y agoWhat's with the low effort, mediocre joke posts today?
- swayvil 3y agoWhat takes less effort, the low effort post or the complaint about the low effort post? But seriously, it's a subtle joke meant for esoteric perspectives. Intended for like 1%.
- sirobg 3y ago> Buffalofish can go decades between successful reproductions because they require very specific environmental conditions—most of which are still unknown—to procreate. That’s why the fish evolved to live so long: It’s an evolutionary adaptation to account for long periods without breeding, according to Lackmann. This reminds me of "The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant" by Nick Bostrom [1]. Senescence is engraved in our brains as universal. Just like our expectation about health which should deteriorate overtime. [1] https://nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon https://nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon
- 7thaccount 3y agoWhat a wonderful fable. I enjoyed reading it and wish there was more research occuring in this field. Still, I'm impressed from what I hear in the news from time to time.
- sirobg 3y agoYes it's so good. An amazing way to give a new perspective on life and death as we know it _today_ imho. Strong emphasis on _today_ because life expectancy, healthy life expectancy and death are already really different from some time ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
- somenameforme 3y agoThere's a quite common misconception around life expectancy. We aren't living all that much longer than in the past. The main thing bringing up life expectancy number is that childhood mortality dramatically declined. [1] If one person lives to 80, but another dies in infancy, then you have a life expectancy of 40 years old. Rather than living longer, more people are able to reach the ages that we all start dying around, and have been for millennia. So for instance in modern history, of the 15 key Founding Fathers, 7 lived to at least 80 years old: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Samuel Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, John Jay. John Adams himself lived to 90. The youngest to die were Hamilton who died in a duel, and John Hancock who died of gout of an undocumented cause - it can be caused by excessive alcohol consumption. All the others lived into their 60s and 70s. It's the same as you go back further into history. Look up basically any Ancient Greek you're familiar with, and you'll see most lived to about the same amount of time we do now a days, sometimes quite a bit longer. For instance Hippocrates, of the Hippocratic Oath, lived to 90 back in the 4th century BC. The common claim there is a survivorship bias, but that's not really true - because most of these individuals made their mark on history decades before they finally died. In other words had e.g. Plato died when he was 50 instead of 80, he still would be known today. [1] - https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality (terrible layout but the site has many interesting graphs on this topic)
- Solvency 3y agoHow does this track with bioaccumulation of plastics and mercury and other pollutants over such a long life?
- verisimi 3y agoIt must be their vaccination schedule
- lilbaby 3y agooh no you didn't (sorry i know this is HN and we don't do that here)
- stevebmark 3y agoIf you're curious to learn more, look into cold blooded vs warm blooded animals and longevity. Cold blooded animals might give us hints to slow aging in humans. Energy expenditure might be related to longevity. Eating more and exercising more (and the energy required to keep your core temperature up) might kill you faster, maybe through free radical production from metabolism.
- hackernewds 3y agoso it's safer for me to be a couch potato. got it
- timeagain 3y agoThe Donald trump school of physical excellence [1] As someone who only started to exercise in their mid thirties, the idea of living longer through not exercising is laughable. Even if it were true, I would rather live to 65 with an able body than to live to 90 not knowing what my body was capable of. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/15/politics/donald-trump-exercise/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/15/politics/donald-trump-exercis...
- hnu234 3y ago> Eating more and exercising more (and the energy required to keep your core temperature up) might kill you faster, maybe through free radical production from metabolism. There's a theory that it's actually heartbeats. Most animals have about 1.5 billion heartbeats. "The reason an elephant lives longer than a shrew is not because its heart beats longer. It's because its heart beats slower. So it takes a few more years for the elephant to complete his or her up to one and a half billion beats." https://www.npr.org/2007/08/18/12877984/size-matters-the-hidden-mathematics-of-life https://www.npr.org/2007/08/18/12877984/size-matters-the-hid...
- huytersd 3y agoAren’t lobsters immortal if they never have an accident?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- givemeethekeys 3y agoThat one time a goldfish lived for more than 200 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanako_(fish) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanako_(fish)
- rvba 3y agoImagine you are a fish. Youbdodge predators for 90 years. You survive the dirty water with all the chemicals put there by humans. Then some asshole angler kills you. If someone wants to eat fish capture them from human made pond used to raise fish.