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> Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid I’m not convinced it’s a simple as that. My EV chargers at night during low demand. The energy provider dec

> Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid I’m not convinced it’s a simple as that. My EV chargers at night during low demand. The energy provider decides exactly when (they start and stop multiple times per night), and gives me a rate of 1/4 of the normal as a benefit. My usage pattern is to charge every night, but I only use about 10% during a normal day. So on average I am close to fully charged at any one time, and can therefore go a week without charging. There is also vehicle-to-grid as you described. My national grid had so many people making inaccurate statements about EVs that they made a page specifically to address them: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele...

itsoktocry 3y ago
>My EV chargers at night during low demand Easy when EVs are 1% market share. If/when they are 25%+ you can't hide behind low demand at night time.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  I don’t know all of the variables to calculate that properly, things like electricity savings from closing refineries and petrol stations are things I can’t calculate. I do see a lot of people spreading FUD on the topic that don’t know either so I’m interested in what your numbers are. What do you think the impact of 25% EV ownership would be? Edit, from my article: > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. So let’s say for 25% of people converting we would have a 2.5% increase in demand on a daily basis. If we spread that over a 6 hour period then we then get back to 10% uptick during that 6 hour period. Here is the total energy production in the UK over a week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d I can see that a 10% daily average (4 Gigawatt) bump at night would still put us much lower than daytime, so demand would still be considered low. Not sure of all my maths and assumptions, happy to hear other views.
- fasterik 3y ago
  Grids are constantly adding capacity to keep up with demand. It's not going to go from 1% to 25% overnight.
  - javawizard 3y ago
    Right. From OP's comment I get the sense that the real problem is that Calgary's grid is poorly managed and may not be well placed to add the necessary capacity. For other, better managed grids in the world, you're almost certainly right.
    - tamaharbor 3y ago
      Better managed = more expensive. Are electric customers ready for that?
      - thomasmg 3y ago
        Better managed is not necessarily more expensive in the long run, specially when tanking into account secondary benefits such as improved economy because companies that care about stable grids build factories there. But yes, short term it is more expensive.
        caseysoftware 3y ago
        It makes sense that we'd see temporary taxes, surcharges, and the like to upgrade the existing system. The question is: How long is "temporary"? In the US, a century is NOT out of the question for a "temporary" tax: > The Spanish-American War has been over for more than 100 years, and now so is the tax imposed in 1898 to help fund it. As of Tuesday, all phone companies selling long-distance phone service are legally required to eliminate the 3 percent federal excise tax on long-distance service, which had been established in 1898 as a luxury tax on wealthy Americans who owned telephones. Ref from 2006: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/telecom-tax-imposed-in-1898-finally-ends/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/telecom-tax-imposed-...
      - slavik81 3y ago
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  Works fine in Europe where we have percentages like that already. The mistake people make is assuming that cars are charging all the time when they are at home. The reality is that average day to day behavior cause that to be more like once a week for many drivers and that drivers can pick the moment when they charge. On any given day you might only use a few kwh. Mostly the collective charging behavior spreads out a little.
  - ahoka 3y ago
    Norway is an outlier with 15%. All other countries have 2-3% at most.
kencausey 3y ago
I'm curious about this consistent claim that electricity is at low demand at night. Perhaps this is less true of areas in the winter with electrically provided heat?
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Here is the electricity production for the UK over the last week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d Not sure how it is for other parts of the world. Maybe places with heat pumps like Norway are different? We have a lot of gas for heating.
  - citrin_ru 3y ago
    The UK is heavy reliant on gas heating currently so only a small fraction of electrical energy on this graph is used for heating. With the switch to heat pumps and other forms of electrical heating the picture will change.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      The switch to heat pumps will be glacially slow. I’ve had a look at doing it on my property and my mums and gave up due to the need to change the pipes and radiators. I suspect only new-builds will go that route for a long time.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  In Calgary, the overnight temp is -27 F for tonight. When the weather gets that cold, insulation and heating have a hard time keeping up. Homes that have natural gas furnaces draw so much that utility companies have a hard time keeping the lines at full pressure. People start using space heaters more and more, which moves the pressure to the electric grid. The problem with the cold is that it is worse at night, so there's less spare capacity overnight than normal. At least, this is what we went through in the upper Midwest a few years back. Right now it's -8 and things are running smooth as usual.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Night is not low demand in a really cold winter. It’s hard to just throw on some electric blankets and turn off the house heat.

itsoktocry 3y ago

>My EV chargers at night during low demand Easy when EVs are 1% market share. If/when they are 25%+ you can't hide behind low demand at night time.

thebruce87m 3y ago
I don’t know all of the variables to calculate that properly, things like electricity savings from closing refineries and petrol stations are things I can’t calculate. I do see a lot of people spreading FUD on the topic that don’t know either so I’m interested in what your numbers are. What do you think the impact of 25% EV ownership would be? Edit, from my article: > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. So let’s say for 25% of people converting we would have a 2.5% increase in demand on a daily basis. If we spread that over a 6 hour period then we then get back to 10% uptick during that 6 hour period. Here is the total energy production in the UK over a week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d I can see that a 10% daily average (4 Gigawatt) bump at night would still put us much lower than daytime, so demand would still be considered low. Not sure of all my maths and assumptions, happy to hear other views.
fasterik 3y ago
Grids are constantly adding capacity to keep up with demand. It's not going to go from 1% to 25% overnight.
- javawizard 3y ago
  Right. From OP's comment I get the sense that the real problem is that Calgary's grid is poorly managed and may not be well placed to add the necessary capacity. For other, better managed grids in the world, you're almost certainly right.
  - tamaharbor 3y ago
    Better managed = more expensive. Are electric customers ready for that?
    - thomasmg 3y ago
      Better managed is not necessarily more expensive in the long run, specially when tanking into account secondary benefits such as improved economy because companies that care about stable grids build factories there. But yes, short term it is more expensive.
      - caseysoftware 3y ago
        It makes sense that we'd see temporary taxes, surcharges, and the like to upgrade the existing system. The question is: How long is "temporary"? In the US, a century is NOT out of the question for a "temporary" tax: > The Spanish-American War has been over for more than 100 years, and now so is the tax imposed in 1898 to help fund it. As of Tuesday, all phone companies selling long-distance phone service are legally required to eliminate the 3 percent federal excise tax on long-distance service, which had been established in 1898 as a luxury tax on wealthy Americans who owned telephones. Ref from 2006: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/telecom-tax-imposed-in-1898-finally-ends/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/telecom-tax-imposed-...
    - slavik81 3y ago
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Works fine in Europe where we have percentages like that already. The mistake people make is assuming that cars are charging all the time when they are at home. The reality is that average day to day behavior cause that to be more like once a week for many drivers and that drivers can pick the moment when they charge. On any given day you might only use a few kwh. Mostly the collective charging behavior spreads out a little.
- ahoka 3y ago
  Norway is an outlier with 15%. All other countries have 2-3% at most.

kencausey 3y ago

I'm curious about this consistent claim that electricity is at low demand at night. Perhaps this is less true of areas in the winter with electrically provided heat?

thebruce87m 3y ago
Here is the electricity production for the UK over the last week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d Not sure how it is for other parts of the world. Maybe places with heat pumps like Norway are different? We have a lot of gas for heating.
- citrin_ru 3y ago
  The UK is heavy reliant on gas heating currently so only a small fraction of electrical energy on this graph is used for heating. With the switch to heat pumps and other forms of electrical heating the picture will change.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    The switch to heat pumps will be glacially slow. I’ve had a look at doing it on my property and my mums and gave up due to the need to change the pipes and radiators. I suspect only new-builds will go that route for a long time.
zdragnar 3y ago
In Calgary, the overnight temp is -27 F for tonight. When the weather gets that cold, insulation and heating have a hard time keeping up. Homes that have natural gas furnaces draw so much that utility companies have a hard time keeping the lines at full pressure. People start using space heaters more and more, which moves the pressure to the electric grid. The problem with the cold is that it is worse at night, so there's less spare capacity overnight than normal. At least, this is what we went through in the upper Midwest a few years back. Right now it's -8 and things are running smooth as usual.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Night is not low demand in a really cold winter. It’s hard to just throw on some electric blankets and turn off the house heat.