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As someone who lives in Calgary, a few random points: This is normal weather for us for a week or so every year. Some years we have longer snaps. Some years we
by mmastrac 3y ago
As someone who lives in Calgary, a few random points:
This is normal weather for us for a week or so every year. Some years we have longer snaps. Some years we have shorter snaps. When things get this cold, everything has a hard time functioning, including but not limited to infrastructure, people, vehicles and utilities.
The electricity infrastructure in the province is poorly maintained and managed by the government and corporations that manage it. We have failed to invest in infrastructure that can handle both peak summer and winter loads.
We received an emergency alert yesterday night describing how the grid was nearly at capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if we got another one today. The reason appears to be that both wind and gas generation are offline due to cold. Pool prices for electricity spiked to $1000/MWh (!).
Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid because it's not even managed well enough to handle a barely electrified fleet of civilian vehicles. There's an argument that the EVs could act as a battery for the grid, but that would require significant technology investment that the province is not managed well enough to implement.
There will still be arctic outflows even if the planet is warming up. Our winters will continue to suck despite the average global temps rising.
Short story: the province is very cold, very badly managed, and there is not much anyone can do about it.
- voisin 3y agoPretty crazy that the gas generation goes offline in the cold when part of Danielle Smith’s rationale for a moratorium on renewables was “grid instability” requiring further study. Seems she panders to oil & gas, but the populace can’t be happy with the price of electricity!
- mmastrac 3y agoI don't think the population gets enough visibility into the price of electricity. Most of the population is on a fixed price plan and I don't understand the economics of it. I'm certain we'll hear about the "wind freezing" but nothing about why the gas plants were offline. Alberta is prime location for nuclear: remote, cold and environmentally stable. We could probably ween ourselves off gas plants in a few decades, build enough capacity for an EV-friendly grid and reduce emissions.
- FredPret 3y agoWhy is cold good for nuclear, getting rid of waste heat? Would that advantage not apply to all heat-based power plants?
- mmastrac 3y agoI believe it comes down to the much more efficient cooling processes, and the fact that you don't need to maintain as much input resource infrastructure as with gas While a gas plant produces heat, the gas transport infrastructure may freeze, and you can have major cold start problems.
- sheepscreek 3y agoOut here in Ontario, the electricity “distribution” costs often outweigh the cost of electricity itself.
- voisin 3y agoIs that because the generation is nuclear and hydroelectric and so lower cost than natural gas like Alberta?
- tempest_ 3y agoThe base load is nuclear but it isnt necessarily cheap. The government tried to take away the hydro subsidies a couple years ago and a bunch of people who live in the middle of no where and use baseboard heating lost their shit so the government went right back to subsidizing it.
- Teever 3y agoThis is often the case in Alberta as well.
- respondo2134 3y agothis ispretty coomon in Alberta for all services. Right now electricity is epensive but natural gas was costing as much or more to get to your house as the actual gas itself. There are a lot of governments and government owned/associated companies all taking a flat fee and then a % of your usage.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 3y agoWhat do you mean? The emergency alert went out at 6:30pm when it was dark (no solar) and no wind (not windy and/or too cold for wind turbines to operate). Having more of grid rely on solar & wind wouldn't help. Replacing fossil fuel sources (which the NDP gov't paid $2B to do) has made situation worse. Gas generation going off line is a separate issue.
- hammyhavoc 3y agoWouldn't batteries have poor performance in these conditions anyway?
- voisin 3y agoProbably not so bad in garages?
- hammyhavoc 3y agoLooking at Canadian census data for AB, I'm not sure what the correlation of owning an EV and having access to a garage would be, but it's not going to be a super common combination. In those situations, how likely is someone to want to use potential vehicular range during a crisis and instead use it on juice for their home?
- klyrs 3y agoI have a garage and an EV, but we haven't had the budget for the necessary electrical work to power the house.
- Teever 3y agoYou don't think that the kind of person who can afford an electric car can afford a garage to put it in? Most, if not all new builds have attached garages in the Edmonton area.
- hammyhavoc 3y agoYou're completely forgetting the demographics of people who rent, live in apartments, lease cars etc. You're also assuming everybody wants an EV or feels it is appropriate for the distances they need to travel.
- Teever 3y agoAre there really that many apartment dwellers without access to a parkade in Alberta?
- sheepscreek 3y agoGood points. Energy storage will be another big issue. Lithium batteries (and possibly others) lose capacity in colder weather. I think, since most batteries are developed for standard operating temps, maybe we need more research into developing a different battery chemistry that is primarily for use in colder climates.
- amatecha 3y agoIndeed, such a chemistry already exists: Lithium Titanium Oxide (LTO) batteries charge & discharge normally down to something like -40 degrees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/09/01/kstar-launches-all-in-one-lithium-titanate-batteries-for-residential-applications/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/09/01/kstar-launches-all-in...
- matsemann 3y agoBeen quite cold in Norway last few weeks, and the news just loves to write stories about electric cars / buses having problems in that kind of weather. Of course it happens. But actually to a lower extent than ICE cars. The small 12v battery in an electric only needs to turn on the systems, and you're good to go with some reduced range. The 12v battery in an ICE will often have a hard time starting the motor in these temperatures. But that's not as news worthy..
- miohtama 3y agoLast week a cold snap hit Finland. A lot of electricity supply was offline due to maintenance. The peak price at Nordpool, Internordic electronicity market, hit 2.5 eur/kWh or 2500 EUR/mWh. This is 25x normal rate around 5c/kWh. The electricity demand flexed, being 30% under estimation/normal. As a retail electricity consumer you can choose between market rate (hourly) or a fixed price electricity. Despite cold snaps, market rate saves long term.
- hn_go_brrrrr 3y agoUnless I'm misunderstanding youz it's 50x, not 25x: 2.5 EUR = 50 * 0.05 EUR
- miohtama 3y agoThank you, too late to correct now
- sjs382 3y agoExactly what happened in Texas in 2021. The parallels between Alberta and Texas always amuse me for some reason. Wishing you best luck during this event!
- bdcravens 3y agoJust wait a couple of days and you might be saying Texas in 2024. We've made minimal changes to our grid since then.
- pixl97 3y agoHopefully the duration and lack of significant snow during these events this year will minimize the chance of PTSD for us. We should only be seeing 3 to 4 days of below freezing temps where in 2021 we saw over a week.
- gonzo 3y agoERCOT seems to be well-prepared (pun intended) for this cold snap.
- jeffrallen 3y agoIt's the resource curse.
- thebruce87m 3y ago> Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid I’m not convinced it’s a simple as that. My EV chargers at night during low demand. The energy provider decides exactly when (they start and stop multiple times per night), and gives me a rate of 1/4 of the normal as a benefit. My usage pattern is to charge every night, but I only use about 10% during a normal day. So on average I am close to fully charged at any one time, and can therefore go a week without charging. There is also vehicle-to-grid as you described. My national grid had so many people making inaccurate statements about EVs that they made a page specifically to address them: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele...
- itsoktocry 3y ago>My EV chargers at night during low demand Easy when EVs are 1% market share. If/when they are 25%+ you can't hide behind low demand at night time.
- thebruce87m 3y agoI don’t know all of the variables to calculate that properly, things like electricity savings from closing refineries and petrol stations are things I can’t calculate. I do see a lot of people spreading FUD on the topic that don’t know either so I’m interested in what your numbers are. What do you think the impact of 25% EV ownership would be? Edit, from my article: > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. So let’s say for 25% of people converting we would have a 2.5% increase in demand on a daily basis. If we spread that over a 6 hour period then we then get back to 10% uptick during that 6 hour period. Here is the total energy production in the UK over a week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d I can see that a 10% daily average (4 Gigawatt) bump at night would still put us much lower than daytime, so demand would still be considered low. Not sure of all my maths and assumptions, happy to hear other views.
- fasterik 3y ago
- eldaisfish 3y agoOne correction - Alberta's wind turbines aren't generating power because the wind speeds are low, not because of cold. Wind speed around Edmonton yesterday was under 5 m/s and today as well. Most of Alberta's wind farms are around Pincher Creek where wind speeds are forecast to be below 5 m/s for the next few days. 5 m/s is important because it is around these speeds where most wind turbine start generating power. Most wind turbines will run just fine at temperatures of -30 C with a few internal heaters for fluids and some electronics.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoCanada as a whole is a badly managed failing country with the worst conditions out of all other developed nations. They hang on to a thin thread of "we are not like the US" but fail to understand that having real estate and mining resources cannot sustain a country forever. You need entrepreneurship, competition and risk taking.
- fifteen1506 3y agoAnd $500 a month health insurance, otherwise you are milking the States' investment in developing new medicine, essentially making Americans pay for the world's research.
- jedberg 3y agoAmusingly, us Americans then turn around and get our drugs from Canada because it's cheaper. Presumably because it's subsidized by your tax dollars. It's a weird symbiotic relationship.
- maerF0x0 3y agoIt's more likely that it's the company making weird regional pricing. And the price in Canada likely is lower due to the Government negotiating for the lower price. Just my guess.
- tensor 3y agoAnd yet objective studies of things like quality of life [1], access to medicare [2], and other metrics, always seem completely at odds with claims like yours. We may not be the top in all metrics, but we are far from the "the worst of all developed nations." Data sure is inconvenient when we're spreading hyperbole and misinformation on the internet! [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-of-life https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5595214/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5595214/
- 3y ago
- Tiktaalik 3y ago> Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid If only the government wasn't openly hostile to new energy projects. Alas.
- gonzo 3y agoSo Texas / ERCOT isn’t alone, and PG&E isn’t an anomaly. This is everywhere.
- red-iron-pine 3y agoNah. Alberta is Snow Texas, and is owned, lock & stock, by oil and gas. They try pretty dang hard to follow the southern examples, and often succeed.
- anonuser123456 3y agoI think you are misattributing “doesn’t work the way I want” for “very badly managed”. Investment has costs. Maybe not everyone wants to pay those costs, consumers included.
- handoflixue 3y agoIf you don't pay the investment costs, then you pay "Pool prices for electricity spiked to $1000/MWh" costs. It's certainly possible there are math-illiterate people who can't work out which path is better, but that doesn't mean it's not "very badly managed"
- dzhiurgis 3y agoEV’s use next to nothing compared to heating It averages to something like 500w vs 5kw of heating.
- bluepetegreen 3y agoThe majority of houses in the Canadian prairies do not use electric heat. Natural gas furnaces are the primary heating type. So they still use electricity for the forced air system, but far less than your quoted 5kW. Usually less than 600W
- zphou 3y agoI’m wondering how much the green energy policy from Ottawa contributes to the problem in AB. If it’s like described that carbon tax prevent the operation of coal or gas powered plant, and how are those solar panel and wind turbines doing in AB right now.
- maerF0x0 3y agoI've long thought the tar sands/ SAGD should be powered by nuclear waste heat. That could easily create a bunch of extra capacity and increase the net barrels produced. A first hit on a google search illustrating what I'm talking about- https://albertainnovates.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Pacific-Northwest-National-Laboratory-Deployability-of-Small-Modular-Nuclear-Reactors-for-Alberta-Applications-Phase-2.pdf https://albertainnovates.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Pacif...
- ckcheng 3y ago> We received an emergency alert yesterday night describing how the grid was nearly at capacity. Interestingly, there’s currently a grid alert (not yet an emergency alert to every phone, TV…). I think that’s the third evening time grid alert in a row.[1] There’s only 210 MW from wind currently, and obviously no solar (10956 MW total generation, 11407 MW total load, importing 451 MW from BC and Saskatchewan at 7:47 MST). [2] But there’s supposed to be more gas generation coming online this year (2,700 megawatts)! [3] [1] “The AESO declared a Grid Alert at 3:42 p.m. Sunday, January 14, 2024.” (there’s even a RSS feed!) https://www.aeso.ca/aeso/understanding-electricity-in-alberta/grid-alerts-and-electricity-conservation/grid-alert-notifications/ https://www.aeso.ca/aeso/understanding-electricity-in-albert... [2] http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServle... [3] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-alberta-poised-for-largest-addition-of-natural-gas-fired-power-to/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-alberta-poi...
- ckcheng 3y agoFor what it’s worth: “The Grid Alert ended at 10:12 p.m.”
- Buhuhhuhu 3y agoYour logic seems to be broken: IF you have an EV car with something like 50-100kWh and you know that either you only travel short distance in such a week OR even stay at home, you can provide load support just by having the bi-directional loading controller checking the frequency of the power grid. It could just stabilize it out of the box with minimal technical requirements. It might even be easy in this case toa lert EV owners to do one or two plug ons and offs manually for the grid. Loading the EVs slowly before the weather or when the other load is gone, could also help supporting the peak usage.
- rikthevik 3y agoI'd like to give a shout out to SaskPower and SaskEnergy, the crown companies that responsible for electricity and power in Saskatchewan. They're not perfect, and it's easy to gripe about them, but on the whole I'm very happy with the service we receive. Also see SGI for auto insurance and SaskTel. We pay less for better service than anywhere else in Canada.
- zintz 3y agoThis was partly abnormal for us in that our DAYTIME temperature has always risen above -30C in the past 19 years. We had a few days this cold spell time where it did not, this hasn't happened since Jan 27th, 2004.