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Cloudflare Termination Video: A Master Class in How Not to Terminate Someone

186 points by uxcolumbo 3y ago

Loucra 3y ago
1) the saleswoman did not make any sales during her trial period, so she is justifiable fired. 2) what she did, recording the meeting without the other part knowladgement is borderline (if not totally) illegal. 3) Her actitude was condescending and snobby. Thing that probably justify her situation. 4) Uploading this to TikTok is completely unappropriated, and probable professional suicide. 5) The way the company assigned a random person to fire her over zoom is definitely not nice, her manager should have done that. Also it looks like the way this company works and she know that during the period she also remotely worked for them.
billy99k 3y ago
[flagged]
- dp-hackernews 3y ago
  What to Do When You Hire the Right Person for the Wrong Position: https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/what-to-do-when-you-hire-the-right-person-for-the-wrong/233955 https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/what-to-do-w...
- gjfxdfyu 3y ago
  the part of getting positive performance feedback from her managers you decided to omit from your take?
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    With her releasing this I would fully expect her also not taking any feedback well or even making that also public. And the positive feedback is her own words. Not from HR, so we do not even have proof that it actually was positive.
  - ryanSrich 3y ago
    I agree. BUT, having worked in tech for well over a decade now, you should absolutely 100% not believe any feedback that's given to you. She's in sales. She should understand that there's exactly 1 metric that matters, closing deals. I'm not saying it's her fault she got fired, but this should really be a lesson for everyone watching this video. Do not believe what they tell you.
    - laserlight 3y ago
      > Do not believe what they tell you. So let's say a manager tells their sales rep to focus on understanding well what the customer needs, before closing the deal. Sales rep doesn't give credit to the manager and rushes for a close. Customer turns out to be a bad fit for company's products and services. Now, the company has a liability. Management exists for a reason. There cannot be “exactly 1 metric” in any job, unless it's paper clip maximization.
- dp-hackernews 3y ago
  In her own words, and seems like its the way the company works, she had a 3 month ramp - which I presume is along the lines of training, mentoring, pairing, learning the ropes by example etc - and then let lose to get stuck in, which as she says has been only one month that overlaped a holiday period. It sure seems like Cloudflare are just culling staff to me, or her manager has no managerial abilities and doesn't know how to give genuinely useful feedback. If it was her performance that was in question, there would be a trail, maybe even a car crash worth of evidence to back up that claim. I don't think she will have issues finding work, unless having high standards, conducting yourself in a professional manner, and fighting for yourself and for your peers are considered a bad things. I think Richard Branson (Virgin) once said, "Treat your staff how you would like them to treat your best customer." - unfortunatrly that doesn't appear to be the mantra at Cloudflare.
  - AmVess 3y ago
    She was in sales and sold nothing. 3 months is a long time to be unproductive. People complain about corporations sending out emails to notify people they have been fired or laid off. This person posting a hit video is a prime example why companies make things as brief as possible with no interaction available.
    - bionsystem 3y ago
      She had 3 months of training, only 1 month of actual sales with the december holidays in the middle, what is it exactly that you don't understand ?
    - pinkgolem 3y ago
      > 3 months is a long time to be unproductive. I mean yes.. but depending on company policy on training/Co thats expected...
    - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
      Sales people generally (in sensible firms) aren’t expected to sell anything in their first quarter while they learn the ropes, the product, etc. It’s also not expected to make any real enterprise sales during Q4 or the beginning of Q1 - those are usually dead times of year. Unless your sales org is a puppy mill/boiler room… which many are. Also, in this case they cut a huge amount of the sales org, this seems more like a “shit we over hired and need to lay people off without it being a layoff, let’s use performance…” shenanigans.
- stavros 3y ago
  She hasn't closed one deal in the one month she's been with the company after training, does that sound like a reasonable evaluation period to you? Why did she not receive any feedback on that from her manager? If your layoff is a surprise to the employee, you fucked up. > Brittney P. should be worried about her future job prospects. This video is now viral. I would think twice about hiring her. If you would avoid hiring a person because they might expose your shitty practices, that says more about your practices than about the person.
  - smabie 3y ago
    I expect all employees to keep company business private. This is what NCs / NDAs are for.
    - stavros 3y ago
      NDAs are for keeping the company's trade secrets in the company. They aren't so you can treat your employees badly and expect that to stay secret.
      - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
        I understand your point. But reality is different. Most employee NDAs will include a non disparage clause in the agreement. Its standard. This is Why we have glassdoor forums. So you can disparage anonymously. Or maybe she didnt sign the NDA and if so disparage away just dont expect other emoloyers to come running to you.
        A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
        What she posted wasn't "disparagement," for she hasn't herself said anything to disparage them. She simply posted a legally recorded conversation. If it made Cloudflare look bad, that's on them; they have only themselves to blame.
        IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
- nmstoker 3y ago
  This is an archaic take on sales. They're not selling fungible widgets, their service is not something to offload on clients who don't want it as then they'll obviously just stop the subscription, with all that's happened being to undermine Cloudflare's reputation and chance at future business. She comes across well, thinks on her feet and is assertive without being even remotely unreasonable.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - afsag 3y ago
    And, still, she hasn't sold anything in four months. "Thinking that as a salesman you have to sell things is an archaic take on sales."
    - op00to 3y ago
      My company engages in sales cycles exceeding a year at times. Unless there's a renewal or something coming up in those 3 months, it takes at least that time to learn the sales tools and meet all your customers. I've never seen a sales person let go inside of a year.
    - justanorherhack 3y ago
      She was on a ramp aka training then started in q4 during holiday season. New sales don't sell first quarter. She isn't selling lemonade, she is selling deals worth 10s of thousands.
      - bobobob420 3y ago
        How many times are you going to copy and paste your comment. I count at least 3
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      Is December normally a good month for sales? I'd imagine it'd be the worst- budgets exhausted at EOY, yourself and your potential customers taking vacation time, etc. plus I imagine there can be latency with boring logistics like getting paperwork signed.
- superhumanuser 3y ago
  This wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. She seems passionate and strong. I like her fight and pushback.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  I would hire her in a second. She saw something unethical and made it public at risk of personal cost. Hiring her is like sending the message "we aren't afraid of this happening because we don't do that." I would view hiring her as a positive sign for a potential employer. Not only that, she comes off as authentic and sold her side of the story very well with that video. She speaks clearly and cogently, even while emotions are clearly bubbling. I think that video shows her skills as a salesperson in action. Good leaders hire people who keep them in check. Poor leaders hire people they can walk over. She is making them pay a much greater cost than her severance in PR and that benefits me because I am more likely to be in her position than I am to be in the CEO's position. I straight up won't work for CloudFlare now after seeing this and the CEOs feeble response. CloudFlare is now in the category of "corporate" in my head. I would rather live in a country made of people like her than a country made of people who don't fight back when they feel wronged. Corporate America is able to be a steaming pile of garbage because most people think like you and not her, so there are no consequences for HR assholes being HR assholes, and since there are no consequences, the dehumanizing behavior keeps on going. She provided consequences. Now those HR workers are going to have to sit in meetings and develop more empathetic policies or come up with a sales pitch on why that video is wrong themselves. The CEO is probably going to have to talk to shareholders about it. Next time they might look at the potential set of consequences (or another company might) and say it's not worth it. The least we owe her is solidarity.
  - kkielhofner 3y ago
    > Not only that, she comes off as authentic and sold her side of the story very well with that video. I'm definitely not defending Cloudflare on this but that's much easier to do when you're the only party knowing the interaction is going to TikTok.
- nunez 3y ago
  B2B sales typically have sales cycles of six months or more.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  > Brittney P. should be worried about her future job prospects. This video is now viral. I would think twice about hiring her. This video reminds me of the cop who was suspended for continually posting TikTok videos of herself dancing while in uniform even after being warned multiple times to stop[0]. Her reaction was to keep doing it. Regardless of who is right in this situation (neither side in my mind) this "blew up" and as you say there isn't a manager or org that isn't paying close attention to this. She's going to have serious challenges in getting her next role. Whether fair or not she's radioactive at this point. If nothing else if Britney P is in a two/all party recording consent state this is technically illegal. Not saying that's right but it is the law... I'd go as far as to say I'd never hire her. Work is challenging enough without knowing a person you're working with could be manipulating/trapping you for their social media account(s) and actually has in the past. Right/wrong is often grey and a matter of perspective. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. To the people who are saying you would hire her and view this as admirable - fair enough but situations can be very subtle and you wouldn't feel the same way if she caught you on a bad/off day and setup a situation where you could very easily be portrayed as the "bad guy" and "put you on blast". It's just not worth the risk. Explanations for this in my mind: 1) Social media addiction is a real thing. According to the American Society of Addiction Medicine the definition of addiction is "People with addiction use substances or engage in behaviors that become compulsive and often continue despite harmful consequences." 2) Looking for any situation to serve as a springboard for a new "career" as a social media "personality". 3) Doing ANYTHING for fame or attention. 4) The only good explanation - wanting to bring attention to an unjust situation. My cynical and dim view of social media, "influencers", etc makes me think this is the most remote explanation. Even if this is the case situations where only one party knows they're on a stage gives them a massive advantage in these kinds of interactions and if you watch the video it's obvious from the start this was a trap. The Cloudflare employee on the other end of the line is completely incompetent and ironically should be fired for their performance for how they did overall but also for not recognizing this is clearly the case. As the linked article says right up front: "This is a prime example of why you should always assume your employees are recording your conversations." Great, what a wonderful environment we've created for ourselves. It's one thing to record, it's another thing entirely to record and post to social media. If Britney P was solely collecting evidence/documentation she could have recorded the video and kept it to herself but no, straight to TikTok. Slight tangent - also see the situation where a "prank" social media person was shot during one of their pranks[2]. The whole social media prank thing is completely disgusting to me and the fact a jury acquitted the shooter leads me to believe that taking advantage of ordinary people with these parasitic, dangerous, and obnoxious "pranks" (harassment) is disgusting to most people who aren't desperate social media addicts. The social media person's response to this situation was unbelievable, with them saying "We’re gonna continue the videos. It is what it is". I believe they're also on record saying how great the entire thing was because it only lead to more attention and views... See 1-3 - you very well could have died and you might next time yet you lean in harder. Yeah, I'd say that meets the definition of addiction. It's no different than OD'ing on fentanyl and continuing to use. What people will do for the clicks/followers/likes is incredible. [0] - https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/2021/05/31/orange-county-deputy-suspended-over-tiktok-videos/ https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/2021/05/31/o... [1] - https://www.asam.org/quality-care/definition-of-addiction https://www.asam.org/quality-care/definition-of-addiction [2] - https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/jury-divided-over-whether-delivery-driver-who-shot-youtube-prankster-acted-in-self-defense/3432763/ https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/jury-divided-over-w...
- justanorherhack 3y ago
  She was on a ramp. New sales don't sell first quarter. She isn't selling lemonade, she is selling deals worth 10s of thousands.
thinkingemote 3y ago
past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678
ceuk 3y ago
In the UK (and most other places with fairly strong employee protections I imagine) it becomes pretty difficult to get rid of employees once they've been around for a while. Often involving a lengthy "managing out" process. Given this, it's common for a 3-6 month "probation period" when starting a new role in which you can be dismissed fairly arbitrarily. This makes sense given the commitment taking on an employee represents IMO. As a result, it's very common for people to lose their jobs within a few months of starting. Just as I imagine a lot of relationships end after a rather short period of time or then tend to persist a bit longer. Sometimes it's clear things just aren't going to work out. She's right in that it's a bit of a rug pull to get continuously good feedback and then suddenly get terminated. There should ideally never be any surprises. I.e. you'd always usually tell the employee what will happen if x does/doesn't happen, get them to agree and then when it pans out that way, no-one is shocked. But like I said.. she's been there what, 4 months? Just move on.
- fvrghl 3y ago
  In the US, that does not happen. The expectation is someone only gets terminated in the first year if they are terrible. Unless it’s a tiny startup, such a stint would raise concerns.
  - smabie 3y ago
    Yeah feels quite the opposite: as long as you're not actively harming the business seems like you usually get a year.
  - ceuk 3y ago
    What an interesting difference, I had no idea. Seems like a good system given the context in the US. Classic American hands off approach that it's more of an unspoken rule than legislation etc :) But anyway, in many ways I can see a system that like working very well for some of the types of people that need it most (e.g. entry level, neurodiverse etc). Makes the 6 month probation system look harsher by comparison.
  - smallerfish 3y ago
    > The expectation is someone only gets terminated in the first year if they are terrible That's an over generalization. I've walked a few people out the door within the first 3-6 months who weren't performing that well. They weren't terrible, just ultimately not a fit for one reason or another.
bitcharmer 3y ago
@dang This is a duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38977794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38977794
- SushiHippie 3y ago
  Which was a duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 And before that, there was also this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38961859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38961859
jmull 3y ago
It’s awfully strange, in my experience, that her manager wouldn’t be there. Makes me wonder if he hadn’t been let go too?
- mhss 3y ago
  As a manager, I've been told at some companies they don't need me there after providing all documentation (emails, 1:1 notes, missed expectations, etc). I think is an attempt to avoid getting into live arguments between the employee and the manager. They think is "easier" for the company (if clearly less human and personal) to have someone else deliver the message and try to move on, not get into answering too many questions, etc.
JazCE 3y ago
You can also see a comment from Matthew Prince on this video: https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1745697840180191501?t=rqOo0U1KLIVMNLKcbeTKng https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1745697840180191501?t=... Edit: Also discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38969065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38969065
- A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
  > "W-we actually didn't fire that many people." > "I-it could be that she didn't actually listen to the feedback, guys. What if she had bad feedback?!" (Implying, without evidence, that the employee is at fault. The most tone-deaf part of his response.) > "Maybe she'd be a star on another team!" (Pointless sports analogy. Another tone-deaf moment.) > "W-we'll do better next time." An embarrassing display.
  - albert_e 3y ago
    But I am not sure what else he could have said to claim this may not be as bad as it looks to save face; or to remind people that the video is but one slice of all facts and any black-and-white judgement one may make solely from it may be imperfect or unfair to parties involved. He did accept blame that they did not get this one right and that it was painful to watch. What else does public with near zero stake in the situation need to hear to be satisfied. If I were a potential hire / investor / client -- yeah I may pay more attention and make some mental notes about how much I respect them as a company. But I dont think this was embarassingly bad to become a dealbreaker for any stakeholder. For me it mostly adds one more bit to a gestalt of how corporate functions and tech companies work these days.
    - machomaster 3y ago
      How about apologizing. How about taking responsibility. How about not making excuses. How about saying what practical steps are going to be done. Heck, how about telling that he personally reviewed her case and that her direct manager called her with details.
flumpcakes 3y ago
The fact her manager wasn't on the call and they were not able to say the exact reasons why she was fired, are massive red flags to me.
greatgib 3y ago
This video also give us an example of a trend of recent years that is really awful: In very short cycles, going on a hire spree and then redundancies plans without real consequences for the management or companies. Basically it costs them almost nothing to mess with people's lives. For example, when doing unreasonable mass hiring, the market goes up, because it is a sign of growth. Then, when firing people in mass, the market value also goes up because it is supposed a sign for short term increased revenue.
- SkipperCat 3y ago
  In big tech, people are commodities, not human beings with lives. Its not just shown in the hire/fire cycle you mention, but also in how many companies let the most vile content thrive on their platforms, with no consideration about the harm it creates. All of this to make a buck or keep the stock prices up.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Solvency 3y ago
Here's a related question: will this video ultimately help or hinder her career? I've always feared that other companies will look at this sort of thing, regardless of who is "in the right", and want to distance themselves from a potential rabble rouser who might bring some future emergent attention to them as well.
- SkipperCat 3y ago
  It will do both. Some companies wont touch her but some will be attracted to her newly minted internet clout.
- fma 3y ago
  Even if 1000 companies says she's wrong, it just takes 1 to agree for her to continue her career. Pretty good odds given the millions of views I'd speculate she has a job next week.
  - xhkkffbf 3y ago
    Hey, I'm more likely to hire her. She can stand up for herself and ask good questions in a difficult spot. That's the kind of employee I want. (And several people on Twitter were saying, "I want to marry her." Indeed, that's what Jeff Bezos was looking for long ago. He said he wanted a woman who could bribe someone to get him out of a third-world prison. Well, he had that. Then he threw it away, in my completely uninformed opinion.)
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      > She can stand up for herself and ask good questions in a difficult spot. And when she asks those questions and the person across the table says "I'm happy to get those answers for you and give them all to you, but I don't have them and can't get them right now in this meeting"... ... and she just keeps repeating the same question without moving forward? That's not how you handle "a difficult spot".
      - machomaster 3y ago
JustLurking2022 3y ago
Saw a variation of this during the recent bout of tech layoffs. Shortly before end of year eval time, a senior executive sent out emails questioning whether it was even possible for new hires to have made sufficient impact and suggesting they should consequently be given a poor rating as the default. It's amazing that leaders at these companies which, for years, acted as though they had all the answers and were more successful than other industries because they worked smarter. And then, at the first sign of headwinds, they want no accountability for their decisions and can't figure out a principles as simple as being honest and treating people fairly. I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory.
- j4yav 3y ago
  Is the main reason they are motivated to blame performance so that they can avoid paying out disability (edit: unemployment) insurance?
  - gruez 3y ago
    >disability insurance I think you meant unemployment insurance?
    - barbazoo 3y ago
      If so, how would they achieve that. In Canada afaik you only pay EI while one’s employed. How would they have saved money with this?
      - gruez 3y ago
        random from google: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unemployment-claims/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unempl... >Again, you are responsible for paying FUTA and SUTA tax for your employees. And when former employees file for unemployment benefits, you are (indirectly) the one footing the bill. >Benefit payments are charged to your employer tax account, which results in increased state tax rates. The more unemployment claims the state approves, the more you contribute for unemployment taxes.
junon 3y ago
How to lose a longtime cloudflare user in 9 minutes or less. Pulling all my worker setups, I'll find something else.
- xhkkffbf 3y ago
  I'm not going to be that extreme. But I needed an instance today and I definitely didn't set up anything on Cloudflare for this project. Maybe in time I'll migrate everything. I used to think they were pretty cool but when they pull stunts like this I think they aren't a great place.
eweise 3y ago
Cloudflare is off my list of potential employers.
flappyeagle 3y ago
[flagged]
- Kurd 3y ago
  She might be an underperforming employee who made a bad decision in posting the recording to the web, but that does not take away from the fact that how the employer handled the call was truly disastrous and unprofessional.
- Clubber 3y ago
  >Wait...the theater major who hasn't closed anything six months into her job (LinkedIn) and was oddly made up with stage makeup for her termination conversation was just "totally surprised" by this? Ya the guy who posted that is an obvious sales shill. I wouldn't be surprised if he has or wants a relationship with CloudFlare or some higher up in it. He goes out of his way to point out she put on makeup for the call? I mean he's in sales, women have to look good in that profession. What exactly is stage makeup vs regular makeup? What exactly is the point of denegrating her degree? I'm sure he doesn't degrade his own female employees for wearing makeup on any professional interaction. He didn't even get the employment timespans right. I mean terminations happen, no reason to be scummy about it, Peter. It makes you look really unprofessional too. Anyway, good luck lady. I hope you find a better company for you.
Clubber 3y ago
I'm glad people are finally outing companies that do this. People need to take these actions into consideration when deciding to join companies like Cloudflare.
NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago
The language really gets me. Maybe (happily) I've been out of corporate America for too long to get it... "...part ways with you..." --> "We've decided to fire you." "...Rosie might be better to explain the process of who's giving this information..." --> "Rosie can talk about why it's us vs. your manager." "...this is a collective calibration for Cloudflare..." --> what the fuck? "...if you can respect that. We can totally respect that..." --> at a loss "...meet the expectations that you're communicating to us..." --> "...tell you what you want to know..." "...give you the data that was calibrated..." --> ...how do you calibrate data? FFS. "...extremely traumatizing for people..." --> ha ha ha...goddamn snowflake. You're getting fired, it's not fun, but it's not like watching your buddies get blown up in front of you and waking up in bed screaming for the next forty years. "...I cannot speak to what your manager has communicated to you directly..." --> "I don't know what your manager said" "...I hear you and what you're saying..." --> "I understand" "...from a process perspective, your questions are valid but this isn't going to be the forum and situation where..." --> "We aren't going to have that conversation with you now" "...I don't think there's anything we can say in this moment and today..." --> "Sorry" In particular, what's up with the duplication? "this moment & today", etc.? I hear it from people with a low bureaucratic position a lot. Think firefighter making an announcement, HR drone, etc.
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  The purpose of this kind of language is minimizing the chances that you put your foot in your mouth, not clarity or conciseness.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago
    ...but it's ALL foot-in-mouth
- atomicone 3y ago
  truly rolled over laughing at "collective calibration". kudos to you for going over their BS speak line by line and laying it bare. At the risk of generalization, HR at most companies in the US are truly tone deaf these days.
d3w4s9 3y ago
Very strange. If it's a layoff, just say it's a layoff and follow the standard procedure. It's bad but nothing fundamentally wrong if it has to happen. If it's about performance, like the article says, the employee should be warned with metrics and other evidence. That's why companies like Amazon have procedures like pip to "ensure" a performance related firing has its basis (even though pip is often abused there, whatever, at least in theory that's something). I don't think this will go well
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
"Please enable JS and disable any ad blocker" Alternatively: https://web.archive.org/web/20240113220120if_/https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/viral-cloudflare-termination-video-masterclass-how-not-terminate.html https://web.archive.org/web/20240113220120if_/https://www.in...

186 points by uxcolumbo 3y ago

1) the saleswoman did not make any sales during her trial period, so she is justifiable fired. 2) what she did, recording the meeting without the other part knowladgement is borderline (if not totally) illegal. 3) Her actitude was condescending and snobby. Thing that probably justify her situation. 4) Uploading this to TikTok is completely unappropriated, and probable professional suicide. 5) The way the company assigned a random person to fire her over zoom is definitely not nice, her manager should have done that. Also it looks like the way this company works and she know that during the period she also remotely worked for them.

billy99k 3y ago

[flagged]

dp-hackernews 3y ago
What to Do When You Hire the Right Person for the Wrong Position: https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/what-to-do-when-you-hire-the-right-person-for-the-wrong/233955 https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/what-to-do-w...
gjfxdfyu 3y ago
the part of getting positive performance feedback from her managers you decided to omit from your take?
- Ekaros 3y ago
  With her releasing this I would fully expect her also not taking any feedback well or even making that also public. And the positive feedback is her own words. Not from HR, so we do not even have proof that it actually was positive.
- ryanSrich 3y ago
  I agree. BUT, having worked in tech for well over a decade now, you should absolutely 100% not believe any feedback that's given to you. She's in sales. She should understand that there's exactly 1 metric that matters, closing deals. I'm not saying it's her fault she got fired, but this should really be a lesson for everyone watching this video. Do not believe what they tell you.
  - laserlight 3y ago
    > Do not believe what they tell you. So let's say a manager tells their sales rep to focus on understanding well what the customer needs, before closing the deal. Sales rep doesn't give credit to the manager and rushes for a close. Customer turns out to be a bad fit for company's products and services. Now, the company has a liability. Management exists for a reason. There cannot be “exactly 1 metric” in any job, unless it's paper clip maximization.
dp-hackernews 3y ago
In her own words, and seems like its the way the company works, she had a 3 month ramp - which I presume is along the lines of training, mentoring, pairing, learning the ropes by example etc - and then let lose to get stuck in, which as she says has been only one month that overlaped a holiday period. It sure seems like Cloudflare are just culling staff to me, or her manager has no managerial abilities and doesn't know how to give genuinely useful feedback. If it was her performance that was in question, there would be a trail, maybe even a car crash worth of evidence to back up that claim. I don't think she will have issues finding work, unless having high standards, conducting yourself in a professional manner, and fighting for yourself and for your peers are considered a bad things. I think Richard Branson (Virgin) once said, "Treat your staff how you would like them to treat your best customer." - unfortunatrly that doesn't appear to be the mantra at Cloudflare.
- AmVess 3y ago
  She was in sales and sold nothing. 3 months is a long time to be unproductive. People complain about corporations sending out emails to notify people they have been fired or laid off. This person posting a hit video is a prime example why companies make things as brief as possible with no interaction available.
  - bionsystem 3y ago
    She had 3 months of training, only 1 month of actual sales with the december holidays in the middle, what is it exactly that you don't understand ?
  - pinkgolem 3y ago
    > 3 months is a long time to be unproductive. I mean yes.. but depending on company policy on training/Co thats expected...
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    Sales people generally (in sensible firms) aren’t expected to sell anything in their first quarter while they learn the ropes, the product, etc. It’s also not expected to make any real enterprise sales during Q4 or the beginning of Q1 - those are usually dead times of year. Unless your sales org is a puppy mill/boiler room… which many are. Also, in this case they cut a huge amount of the sales org, this seems more like a “shit we over hired and need to lay people off without it being a layoff, let’s use performance…” shenanigans.
stavros 3y ago
She hasn't closed one deal in the one month she's been with the company after training, does that sound like a reasonable evaluation period to you? Why did she not receive any feedback on that from her manager? If your layoff is a surprise to the employee, you fucked up. > Brittney P. should be worried about her future job prospects. This video is now viral. I would think twice about hiring her. If you would avoid hiring a person because they might expose your shitty practices, that says more about your practices than about the person.
- smabie 3y ago
  I expect all employees to keep company business private. This is what NCs / NDAs are for.
  - stavros 3y ago
    NDAs are for keeping the company's trade secrets in the company. They aren't so you can treat your employees badly and expect that to stay secret.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
      I understand your point. But reality is different. Most employee NDAs will include a non disparage clause in the agreement. Its standard. This is Why we have glassdoor forums. So you can disparage anonymously. Or maybe she didnt sign the NDA and if so disparage away just dont expect other emoloyers to come running to you.
      - A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
        What she posted wasn't "disparagement," for she hasn't herself said anything to disparage them. She simply posted a legally recorded conversation. If it made Cloudflare look bad, that's on them; they have only themselves to blame.
        IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
nmstoker 3y ago
This is an archaic take on sales. They're not selling fungible widgets, their service is not something to offload on clients who don't want it as then they'll obviously just stop the subscription, with all that's happened being to undermine Cloudflare's reputation and chance at future business. She comes across well, thinks on her feet and is assertive without being even remotely unreasonable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- afsag 3y ago
  And, still, she hasn't sold anything in four months. "Thinking that as a salesman you have to sell things is an archaic take on sales."
  - op00to 3y ago
    My company engages in sales cycles exceeding a year at times. Unless there's a renewal or something coming up in those 3 months, it takes at least that time to learn the sales tools and meet all your customers. I've never seen a sales person let go inside of a year.
  - justanorherhack 3y ago
    She was on a ramp aka training then started in q4 during holiday season. New sales don't sell first quarter. She isn't selling lemonade, she is selling deals worth 10s of thousands.
    - bobobob420 3y ago
      How many times are you going to copy and paste your comment. I count at least 3
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Is December normally a good month for sales? I'd imagine it'd be the worst- budgets exhausted at EOY, yourself and your potential customers taking vacation time, etc. plus I imagine there can be latency with boring logistics like getting paperwork signed.
superhumanuser 3y ago
This wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. She seems passionate and strong. I like her fight and pushback.
hayst4ck 3y ago
I would hire her in a second. She saw something unethical and made it public at risk of personal cost. Hiring her is like sending the message "we aren't afraid of this happening because we don't do that." I would view hiring her as a positive sign for a potential employer. Not only that, she comes off as authentic and sold her side of the story very well with that video. She speaks clearly and cogently, even while emotions are clearly bubbling. I think that video shows her skills as a salesperson in action. Good leaders hire people who keep them in check. Poor leaders hire people they can walk over. She is making them pay a much greater cost than her severance in PR and that benefits me because I am more likely to be in her position than I am to be in the CEO's position. I straight up won't work for CloudFlare now after seeing this and the CEOs feeble response. CloudFlare is now in the category of "corporate" in my head. I would rather live in a country made of people like her than a country made of people who don't fight back when they feel wronged. Corporate America is able to be a steaming pile of garbage because most people think like you and not her, so there are no consequences for HR assholes being HR assholes, and since there are no consequences, the dehumanizing behavior keeps on going. She provided consequences. Now those HR workers are going to have to sit in meetings and develop more empathetic policies or come up with a sales pitch on why that video is wrong themselves. The CEO is probably going to have to talk to shareholders about it. Next time they might look at the potential set of consequences (or another company might) and say it's not worth it. The least we owe her is solidarity.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  > Not only that, she comes off as authentic and sold her side of the story very well with that video. I'm definitely not defending Cloudflare on this but that's much easier to do when you're the only party knowing the interaction is going to TikTok.
nunez 3y ago
B2B sales typically have sales cycles of six months or more.
kkielhofner 3y ago
> Brittney P. should be worried about her future job prospects. This video is now viral. I would think twice about hiring her. This video reminds me of the cop who was suspended for continually posting TikTok videos of herself dancing while in uniform even after being warned multiple times to stop[0]. Her reaction was to keep doing it. Regardless of who is right in this situation (neither side in my mind) this "blew up" and as you say there isn't a manager or org that isn't paying close attention to this. She's going to have serious challenges in getting her next role. Whether fair or not she's radioactive at this point. If nothing else if Britney P is in a two/all party recording consent state this is technically illegal. Not saying that's right but it is the law... I'd go as far as to say I'd never hire her. Work is challenging enough without knowing a person you're working with could be manipulating/trapping you for their social media account(s) and actually has in the past. Right/wrong is often grey and a matter of perspective. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. To the people who are saying you would hire her and view this as admirable - fair enough but situations can be very subtle and you wouldn't feel the same way if she caught you on a bad/off day and setup a situation where you could very easily be portrayed as the "bad guy" and "put you on blast". It's just not worth the risk. Explanations for this in my mind: 1) Social media addiction is a real thing. According to the American Society of Addiction Medicine the definition of addiction is "People with addiction use substances or engage in behaviors that become compulsive and often continue despite harmful consequences." 2) Looking for any situation to serve as a springboard for a new "career" as a social media "personality". 3) Doing ANYTHING for fame or attention. 4) The only good explanation - wanting to bring attention to an unjust situation. My cynical and dim view of social media, "influencers", etc makes me think this is the most remote explanation. Even if this is the case situations where only one party knows they're on a stage gives them a massive advantage in these kinds of interactions and if you watch the video it's obvious from the start this was a trap. The Cloudflare employee on the other end of the line is completely incompetent and ironically should be fired for their performance for how they did overall but also for not recognizing this is clearly the case. As the linked article says right up front: "This is a prime example of why you should always assume your employees are recording your conversations." Great, what a wonderful environment we've created for ourselves. It's one thing to record, it's another thing entirely to record and post to social media. If Britney P was solely collecting evidence/documentation she could have recorded the video and kept it to herself but no, straight to TikTok. Slight tangent - also see the situation where a "prank" social media person was shot during one of their pranks[2]. The whole social media prank thing is completely disgusting to me and the fact a jury acquitted the shooter leads me to believe that taking advantage of ordinary people with these parasitic, dangerous, and obnoxious "pranks" (harassment) is disgusting to most people who aren't desperate social media addicts. The social media person's response to this situation was unbelievable, with them saying "We’re gonna continue the videos. It is what it is". I believe they're also on record saying how great the entire thing was because it only lead to more attention and views... See 1-3 - you very well could have died and you might next time yet you lean in harder. Yeah, I'd say that meets the definition of addiction. It's no different than OD'ing on fentanyl and continuing to use. What people will do for the clicks/followers/likes is incredible. [0] - https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/2021/05/31/orange-county-deputy-suspended-over-tiktok-videos/ https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/2021/05/31/o... [1] - https://www.asam.org/quality-care/definition-of-addiction https://www.asam.org/quality-care/definition-of-addiction [2] - https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/jury-divided-over-whether-delivery-driver-who-shot-youtube-prankster-acted-in-self-defense/3432763/ https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/jury-divided-over-w...
justanorherhack 3y ago
She was on a ramp. New sales don't sell first quarter. She isn't selling lemonade, she is selling deals worth 10s of thousands.

thinkingemote 3y ago

past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678

ceuk 3y ago

In the UK (and most other places with fairly strong employee protections I imagine) it becomes pretty difficult to get rid of employees once they've been around for a while. Often involving a lengthy "managing out" process. Given this, it's common for a 3-6 month "probation period" when starting a new role in which you can be dismissed fairly arbitrarily. This makes sense given the commitment taking on an employee represents IMO. As a result, it's very common for people to lose their jobs within a few months of starting. Just as I imagine a lot of relationships end after a rather short period of time or then tend to persist a bit longer. Sometimes it's clear things just aren't going to work out. She's right in that it's a bit of a rug pull to get continuously good feedback and then suddenly get terminated. There should ideally never be any surprises. I.e. you'd always usually tell the employee what will happen if x does/doesn't happen, get them to agree and then when it pans out that way, no-one is shocked. But like I said.. she's been there what, 4 months? Just move on.

fvrghl 3y ago
In the US, that does not happen. The expectation is someone only gets terminated in the first year if they are terrible. Unless it’s a tiny startup, such a stint would raise concerns.
- smabie 3y ago
  Yeah feels quite the opposite: as long as you're not actively harming the business seems like you usually get a year.
- ceuk 3y ago
  What an interesting difference, I had no idea. Seems like a good system given the context in the US. Classic American hands off approach that it's more of an unspoken rule than legislation etc :) But anyway, in many ways I can see a system that like working very well for some of the types of people that need it most (e.g. entry level, neurodiverse etc). Makes the 6 month probation system look harsher by comparison.
- smallerfish 3y ago
  > The expectation is someone only gets terminated in the first year if they are terrible That's an over generalization. I've walked a few people out the door within the first 3-6 months who weren't performing that well. They weren't terrible, just ultimately not a fit for one reason or another.

bitcharmer 3y ago

@dang This is a duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38977794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38977794

SushiHippie 3y ago
Which was a duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38963678 And before that, there was also this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38961859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38961859

jmull 3y ago

It’s awfully strange, in my experience, that her manager wouldn’t be there. Makes me wonder if he hadn’t been let go too?

mhss 3y ago
As a manager, I've been told at some companies they don't need me there after providing all documentation (emails, 1:1 notes, missed expectations, etc). I think is an attempt to avoid getting into live arguments between the employee and the manager. They think is "easier" for the company (if clearly less human and personal) to have someone else deliver the message and try to move on, not get into answering too many questions, etc.

JazCE 3y ago

You can also see a comment from Matthew Prince on this video: https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1745697840180191501?t=rqOo0U1KLIVMNLKcbeTKng https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1745697840180191501?t=... Edit: Also discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38969065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38969065

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
> "W-we actually didn't fire that many people." > "I-it could be that she didn't actually listen to the feedback, guys. What if she had bad feedback?!" (Implying, without evidence, that the employee is at fault. The most tone-deaf part of his response.) > "Maybe she'd be a star on another team!" (Pointless sports analogy. Another tone-deaf moment.) > "W-we'll do better next time." An embarrassing display.
- albert_e 3y ago
  But I am not sure what else he could have said to claim this may not be as bad as it looks to save face; or to remind people that the video is but one slice of all facts and any black-and-white judgement one may make solely from it may be imperfect or unfair to parties involved. He did accept blame that they did not get this one right and that it was painful to watch. What else does public with near zero stake in the situation need to hear to be satisfied. If I were a potential hire / investor / client -- yeah I may pay more attention and make some mental notes about how much I respect them as a company. But I dont think this was embarassingly bad to become a dealbreaker for any stakeholder. For me it mostly adds one more bit to a gestalt of how corporate functions and tech companies work these days.
  - machomaster 3y ago
    How about apologizing. How about taking responsibility. How about not making excuses. How about saying what practical steps are going to be done. Heck, how about telling that he personally reviewed her case and that her direct manager called her with details.

flumpcakes 3y ago

The fact her manager wasn't on the call and they were not able to say the exact reasons why she was fired, are massive red flags to me.

greatgib 3y ago

This video also give us an example of a trend of recent years that is really awful: In very short cycles, going on a hire spree and then redundancies plans without real consequences for the management or companies. Basically it costs them almost nothing to mess with people's lives. For example, when doing unreasonable mass hiring, the market goes up, because it is a sign of growth. Then, when firing people in mass, the market value also goes up because it is supposed a sign for short term increased revenue.

SkipperCat 3y ago
In big tech, people are commodities, not human beings with lives. Its not just shown in the hire/fire cycle you mention, but also in how many companies let the most vile content thrive on their platforms, with no consideration about the harm it creates. All of this to make a buck or keep the stock prices up.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Solvency 3y ago

Here's a related question: will this video ultimately help or hinder her career? I've always feared that other companies will look at this sort of thing, regardless of who is "in the right", and want to distance themselves from a potential rabble rouser who might bring some future emergent attention to them as well.

SkipperCat 3y ago
It will do both. Some companies wont touch her but some will be attracted to her newly minted internet clout.
fma 3y ago
Even if 1000 companies says she's wrong, it just takes 1 to agree for her to continue her career. Pretty good odds given the millions of views I'd speculate she has a job next week.
- xhkkffbf 3y ago
  Hey, I'm more likely to hire her. She can stand up for herself and ask good questions in a difficult spot. That's the kind of employee I want. (And several people on Twitter were saying, "I want to marry her." Indeed, that's what Jeff Bezos was looking for long ago. He said he wanted a woman who could bribe someone to get him out of a third-world prison. Well, he had that. Then he threw it away, in my completely uninformed opinion.)
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > She can stand up for herself and ask good questions in a difficult spot. And when she asks those questions and the person across the table says "I'm happy to get those answers for you and give them all to you, but I don't have them and can't get them right now in this meeting"... ... and she just keeps repeating the same question without moving forward? That's not how you handle "a difficult spot".
    - machomaster 3y ago

JustLurking2022 3y ago

Saw a variation of this during the recent bout of tech layoffs. Shortly before end of year eval time, a senior executive sent out emails questioning whether it was even possible for new hires to have made sufficient impact and suggesting they should consequently be given a poor rating as the default. It's amazing that leaders at these companies which, for years, acted as though they had all the answers and were more successful than other industries because they worked smarter. And then, at the first sign of headwinds, they want no accountability for their decisions and can't figure out a principles as simple as being honest and treating people fairly. I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory.

j4yav 3y ago
Is the main reason they are motivated to blame performance so that they can avoid paying out disability (edit: unemployment) insurance?
- gruez 3y ago
  >disability insurance I think you meant unemployment insurance?
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    If so, how would they achieve that. In Canada afaik you only pay EI while one’s employed. How would they have saved money with this?
    - gruez 3y ago
      random from google: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unemployment-claims/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unempl... >Again, you are responsible for paying FUTA and SUTA tax for your employees. And when former employees file for unemployment benefits, you are (indirectly) the one footing the bill. >Benefit payments are charged to your employer tax account, which results in increased state tax rates. The more unemployment claims the state approves, the more you contribute for unemployment taxes.

junon 3y ago

How to lose a longtime cloudflare user in 9 minutes or less. Pulling all my worker setups, I'll find something else.

xhkkffbf 3y ago
I'm not going to be that extreme. But I needed an instance today and I definitely didn't set up anything on Cloudflare for this project. Maybe in time I'll migrate everything. I used to think they were pretty cool but when they pull stunts like this I think they aren't a great place.

eweise 3y ago

Cloudflare is off my list of potential employers.

flappyeagle 3y ago

[flagged]

Kurd 3y ago
She might be an underperforming employee who made a bad decision in posting the recording to the web, but that does not take away from the fact that how the employer handled the call was truly disastrous and unprofessional.
Clubber 3y ago
>Wait...the theater major who hasn't closed anything six months into her job (LinkedIn) and was oddly made up with stage makeup for her termination conversation was just "totally surprised" by this? Ya the guy who posted that is an obvious sales shill. I wouldn't be surprised if he has or wants a relationship with CloudFlare or some higher up in it. He goes out of his way to point out she put on makeup for the call? I mean he's in sales, women have to look good in that profession. What exactly is stage makeup vs regular makeup? What exactly is the point of denegrating her degree? I'm sure he doesn't degrade his own female employees for wearing makeup on any professional interaction. He didn't even get the employment timespans right. I mean terminations happen, no reason to be scummy about it, Peter. It makes you look really unprofessional too. Anyway, good luck lady. I hope you find a better company for you.

Clubber 3y ago

I'm glad people are finally outing companies that do this. People need to take these actions into consideration when deciding to join companies like Cloudflare.

NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago

The language really gets me. Maybe (happily) I've been out of corporate America for too long to get it... "...part ways with you..." --> "We've decided to fire you." "...Rosie might be better to explain the process of who's giving this information..." --> "Rosie can talk about why it's us vs. your manager." "...this is a collective calibration for Cloudflare..." --> what the fuck? "...if you can respect that. We can totally respect that..." --> at a loss "...meet the expectations that you're communicating to us..." --> "...tell you what you want to know..." "...give you the data that was calibrated..." --> ...how do you calibrate data? FFS. "...extremely traumatizing for people..." --> ha ha ha...goddamn snowflake. You're getting fired, it's not fun, but it's not like watching your buddies get blown up in front of you and waking up in bed screaming for the next forty years. "...I cannot speak to what your manager has communicated to you directly..." --> "I don't know what your manager said" "...I hear you and what you're saying..." --> "I understand" "...from a process perspective, your questions are valid but this isn't going to be the forum and situation where..." --> "We aren't going to have that conversation with you now" "...I don't think there's anything we can say in this moment and today..." --> "Sorry" In particular, what's up with the duplication? "this moment & today", etc.? I hear it from people with a low bureaucratic position a lot. Think firefighter making an announcement, HR drone, etc.

SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
The purpose of this kind of language is minimizing the chances that you put your foot in your mouth, not clarity or conciseness.
- NoImmatureAdHom 3y ago
  ...but it's ALL foot-in-mouth
atomicone 3y ago
truly rolled over laughing at "collective calibration". kudos to you for going over their BS speak line by line and laying it bare. At the risk of generalization, HR at most companies in the US are truly tone deaf these days.

d3w4s9 3y ago

Very strange. If it's a layoff, just say it's a layoff and follow the standard procedure. It's bad but nothing fundamentally wrong if it has to happen. If it's about performance, like the article says, the employee should be warned with metrics and other evidence. That's why companies like Amazon have procedures like pip to "ensure" a performance related firing has its basis (even though pip is often abused there, whatever, at least in theory that's something). I don't think this will go well

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

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