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> Airbus overtook Boeing as the world’s biggest plane maker in 2019 following the second crash of the 737 MAX that led to a global grounding and subsequent paus
by addicted 3y ago
> Airbus overtook Boeing as the world’s biggest plane maker in 2019 following the second crash of the 737 MAX that led to a global grounding and subsequent pause in production of the Boeing jet.
I’m not sure if these are connected but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Airlines are losing millions of dollars due to grounding their fleet and the fact that it’s happened again cannot help.
The only thing keeping Boeing in the game right now is likely the fact that Airbus is sold out for over a decade.
- afavour 3y agoThat and switching costs. I'm no expert but I've noticed airlines tend to keep their fleets to as few variants of plane as possible. Makes sense thinking about maintenance etc. Have to imagine introducing an entire new manufacturer would add significant complication.
- deskamess 3y agoEmirates with the B777 and A380 models only. Landing in Dubai and seeing that uniform line of B777's was something else.
- dylan604 3y agoI remember the first time I came face to face with 777. When you show up to the gate expecting a 737, that 777 is incredible sitting there instead. Normally, you are pretty much looking down at the 737 from the gate, but you’re underneath the 777 and can’t even see the cockpit. It was really surprising since this was not a long haul flight.
- tim333 3y agoI was and still am impressed by the size of the engines of those things. Last time I flew one I was looking down on one thinking it looked more like a small house than a jet tube. (see https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/x7jges/777_engine_size_compared_to_737_fuselage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/x7jges/777_engine...)
- dylan604 3y agoreddit comments can be fun: "If I was a billionaire, I would buy a 737 and upgrade the engines to GE9X's " Boeing refers to that as 737MAX+
- SoftTalker 3y agoThe 777 is a great aircraft. Pilots love them. Maybe the last one Boeing built.
- danpalmer 3y agoSucks to fly on though, compared to the A350/A380/787, all of which are noticeably more comfortable.
- dylan604 3y agoany airline can turn any plane into a hell for the customers with how they squeeze as many seats in as nearly impossible to do
- danpalmer 3y agoMaybe. In my experience over the last few years of doing a lot of long haul flying in economy, there's not much difference in seat layout between airlines though, it's mostly about the plane you're on. A380s have nice big seats, the rest are pretty similar. The pressurisation and quality of air conditioning on the other hand makes a big difference to my quality of life personally, and that's noticeably worse on 777s.
- masklinn 3y agoAirbus has a significant edge there because they have very uniform FBW cockpits and a very good cross-crew qualification program: it takes two weeks to train from an A320 rating to an A380 (it's by far the longuest CCQ).
- cgeier 3y agoMaintenance is probably an even bigger issue than crew.
- mysterydip 3y agoI'd assume a contributing factor is all the defense contracts Boeing has. Not sure how the percentages work out, but guaranteed orders of military equipment have to have high margin.
- ArnoVW 3y agoCivil aviation is beer money to Boeing. They make the brunt of the money in military. That’s also where the margins are. The US government will never let Boeing go bankrupt, the impact on their supply chain (specifically nuclear) would be too big. And Boeing know it.
- whiplash451 3y agoThe US gov might force/convince them to split in two then.
- yread 3y agoThey are roughly 40% military, 30% civilian planes and 30% services (maintenance), revenue-wise
- newsclues 3y agoIs 50% of services for the military?
- TrueDuality 3y agoProbably less. A lot of US military groups have dedicated personal for maintaining operational hardware including planes that are cross-trained at these large companies.
- newsclues 3y ago
- frakt0x90 3y agoOr for airlines like Southwest that have an exclusive contract with Boeing and would require an enormous cost and effort to introduce any other manufacturer.
- bzax 3y agoNot only does Southwest exclusively fly Boeing aircraft, they exclusively fly 737s, which enables their unusual routing style. Essentially every pilot and crew at Southwest can fly any aircraft the company has for them. Presumably this gives Boeing a strong incentive to keep making new 737s that push the engineering envelope, instead of making a new narrowbody aircraft.
- rainsford 3y agoThat strategy makes some sense in the short to medium term, but I always wonder what the end game is supposed to be. Convincing Boeing to just keep making 737 variants forever so Southwest can keep flying a single aircraft type seems like it will lock the two in a death spiral where they slowly become less and less competitive due to forced reliance on an increasingly aging airframe. The MAX is an obvious example of the types of compromises that need to be made to try to keep pace, but it sees unlikely it will be the last. At some point both Boeing and Southwest need a path to replace the 737 entirely.
- euroderf 3y agoIf Southwest will have to make One Big Decision on its next generation, Airbus could have a reasonable shot at it eh.
- rainsford 3y agoI imagine Airbus does have a chance, although like I said in a sibling comment, I think they'll need a new plane to do it. The A320 might be newer than the 737, but it's not really that new. I don't see a company like Southwest planning a generational shift to an airframe that itself is nearly a generation old. Whichever company comes out with the next generation single aisle might end up with the business though.
- sofixa 3y ago> The only thing keeping Boeing in the game right now is likely the fact that Airbus is sold out for over a decade Depends on the model, A220, A330 and A350 can be ordered for within 5 years. Update: Delta just ordered A350-1000s, and deliveries will start in 2026, so merely 2 years out.
- hef19898 3y agoDelivery slot allocation is bit more complex than deviding order book by monthly deliveries. Also, custumers cancel orders, freeing up delivery slots for other airlines. The A320 order book is approaching ten years so, and wont decrease with sales exceeding deliveries.
- fmajid 3y agoIt figures Airbus wouldn't add a new production line for an aircraft first introduced in 1988 and for which a replacement could arrive in 2024 or 2025.
- sofixa 3y ago> for which a replacement could arrive in 2024 or 2025 That's unlikely. They're in the process of testing out various moonshots (hydrogen powered aircraft in multiple configurations, flying wings, open fan engines), and it's practically impossible to have enough data to engage in a new design so quickly. Especially when the neo A320 family is quite new, selling very well, and has new models coming out soon (A321LR and XLR), and they already have the A220 that can use new engines and a stretch.
- hef19898 3y agoFor a replacement to arrive in the next 2 years, planes would have to be already in flight testing. Moonshots are good, aren't they? Difference between Airbus and the various Start-Up moonshoots: the former is financed by their existing business activities, while the latter is financed by VC money.
- 7thaccount 3y agoThat and the US government trying to keep them afloat for national security reasons.
- misja111 3y agoAnd vendor lock-in. Airlines have invested in education for their pilots and maintenance employees, and in Boeing specific maintenance equipment.
- oofbey 3y agoThis is the whole reason for the 737 Max debacle. They tried to keep the controls the same so pilots wouldn’t need retraining, even though the plane was very different. They tried to paper over the differences in software. And hundreds died.
- alexhutcheson 3y agoAirlines with Airbus fleets are dealing with lengthy periods of unavailability due to issues with the Pratt & Whitney engines that power ~60% of A320neos and all A220s[1]. My understanding is that the airlines have agreements where P&W will eventually compensate them for this, but Airbus fleets haven't been without headaches. [1] https://crankyflier.com/2023/09/26/the-problem-with-pratt-whitneys-pw1100g-engines-on-the-a320neo-family/ https://crankyflier.com/2023/09/26/the-problem-with-pratt-wh...
- kioleanu 3y agoA company I use often, Wizz Air, had/has to regularly ground these planes. It’s always a safe bet to book seats at the front of the plane to be sure that your seat doesn’t magically disappear when you are at the gate (happened last Easter when they sold seats for a 180 seats plane but had to ground it and sent a smaller one last minute). The only silver lining here is that they caught the problems before any plane actually crashed because of them
- gruez 3y ago>It’s always a safe bet to book seats at the front of the plane to be sure that your seat doesn’t magically disappear when you are at the gate Why? Do they bump the rear seats first?
- denimnerd42 3y agohis 2nd one says they send a smaller plane. it'd make sense a simple algorithm would map 1a1b1c1d1e to 1a1b1c1d2a2b etc. the rear most seats get bumped.
- axus 3y agoA lot of times they are narrower too, guess you want seats with a low letter too (17A vs 17G).
- 3y ago
- rozab 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Aviation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Aviation >On 28 April 2016, Bombardier Aerospace, a division of Bombardier Inc., recorded a firm order from Delta Air Lines for 75 CSeries CS100s plus 50 options. On 27 April 2017, The Boeing Company filed a petition for dumping them at $19.6m each, below their $33.2m production cost. >On 26 September, after lobbying by Boeing, the US Department of Commerce (DoC) alleged subsidies of 220% and intended to collect deposits accordingly, plus a preliminary 80% anti-dumping duty, resulting in a duty of 300%. The DoC announced its final ruling, a total duty of 292%, on 20 December, hailing it as an affirmation of the "America First" policy. >In October 2017, as a direct result of the tariffs and mounting financial issues, Bombardier was forced by the American government into an agreement to relinquish 50.01% of its stake in the CSeries program to Airbus for a token CAD$1, and would produce CSeries aircraft in the United States. >In 2020, amid mounting debts, Bombardier sold its remaining A220 stake to Airbus and exited the commercial plane business. Boeing will be fine.
- edgyquant 3y agoSubsidies don’t help when people are afraid of your planes
- eastbound 3y agoAnd when your procedures are lenient and reviews are so frivolous that everyone knows that your planes routinely crash.
- t0mas88 3y agoI think Boeing miscalculated that one, because in the end Airbus ended up with the A220 program which is great for them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]