6 ms·

Tennessee after-school Satan club holds first meeting despite protests

61 points by wrx100 3y ago

akomtu 3y ago
[flagged]
- urdbjtdvbg 3y ago
  I can’t figure out if you are serious.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  To their credit, that quoted statement rejects the claim that they're a religiously motivated club. They outright state that the worship of Satan is not what they do (because they are non-theistic) and encouraging that would probably have you removed. Either way, moral apathy exists with or without religion, so I'd argue it's pointless to blame it on an optional extracurricular club (for teenagers). So far, the only instigators of conflict here seem to be religiously-involved adults. So long as individual self-expression is respected, I see no reason why Satan Club should be treated different from a religious fellowship or book club.
- gridspy 3y ago
  It's unclear from the article whither you are correct or you are offering a straw-man argument. Obviously the situation you are positing 1. You posit a distorted idea of "tyranny" - you extend it to all morals 2. You assume a second stage of Satan Worship, which might not be present. From the article it seems far more likely to be an Atheist club that chose a name to cause debate about the cultural capital religion has. Bear in mind that for centuries the church has been used as a means of control and to support autocrats and persecution. It's far more likely the Satanic club is objecting to that use.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    As an atheist club they wouldn't have the same constitutional protections that a religious club would have.
  - akomtu 3y ago
    I don't assume. I believe everyone must be given a chance to make an informed choice, so every time those preachers of the left hand try to fool the naive folk, I feel it's my duty to give them a more complete picture. And if they still choose to jump off a cliff, then well, it's their right.
- thefurdrake 3y ago
  Ceding your concept of morality to a book someone wrote thousands of years ago is the pinnacle act of moral apathy. That level of apathy is revealed in the way you make your argument: Others' way(s) of life can't possible be moral because they're doing things differently... revealing a lazy mind incapable of compassion and unable to comprehend the values of others. Seriously, take a look at what you wrote and think about the implications of painting people involved in Not Your Preferred Religion as "naive followers" with "amoral apathy" that are lured into "actual worship"... which sounds a lot like how certain popular religious organizations slip into the philosophies of others who were better off without them, not that I'd name names. It'd be difficult, anyway, as the hypocrisy is usually thick with individuals who engage in these sorts of mental gymnastics. It's super common when TST gets involved, and it's always amusing to watch.
m_a_g 3y ago
> Speaking to WMC, ASSC’s national campaign director pushed back against criticisms, saying: “We don’t go to a school unless there is another religious club operating.” I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I really like this club and would consider sending my kids there.
- more_corn 3y ago
  Same. ‘the Satanic Temple was a non-theistic religion that views Satan as “a literary figure who represents a metaphorical construct of rejecting tyranny and championing the human mind and spirit”. “After School Satan Club does not attempt to convert children to any religious ideology. Instead, the Satanic Temple supports children to think for themselves. All After School Satan Clubs … emphasize a scientific, rationalist, non-superstitious world view,” ‘ The satanic temple was created specifically to counteract the damaging effects of organized religion. I see nothing objectionable in what they do. I’d have joined it as a kid (once i figured out what they were about). I’d have no problem sending my kid to a club that supports thinking for yourself and a scientific and rationalist approach to life. Keep in mind that the satanic temple does not believe in the literal existence of satan.
forward1 3y ago
[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Rejected God? Embraces those who live their best life? Hail Satan.
  - forward1 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - twojacobtwo 3y ago
      You switched 'god', from the parent post, to 'authority'. If I did the same lexical sleight-of-hand, I could switch it to 'tyranny'. Is rejecting tyranny mature enough? Or, just leave it at rejecting god, as plenty of mature individuals have done that.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - TylerE 3y ago
      It's essentially a parody/protest religion. Basically taking the idea of "Ok, you're gonna play the religious freedom card? How you like deez apples? If you want us out, you have to go too."
- pwthornton 3y ago
  I can only speak as a Christian, but a lot of the Bible and Christian teachings are kind of fascist. A lot of worshipping God, treating God and Jesus like King, God killing people, etc. Also, a lot of rules (many quite arbitrary and nonsensical). I could 100% see Satan considered some kind of champion of liberal and libertarian values.
Gee8r9 3y ago
Satan has a very strong meaning in Islam and other religions. This would not be possible in France or UK.
- gridspy 3y ago
  Are you claiming there is no religious freedom in France and the UK?
  - Gee8r9 3y ago
    There is no bacon in school cafeteria...
    - ben_w 3y ago
      In the UK? That's probably just budget cuts. Even 25 years ago when I was a kid myself, the cafeterias were on a shoestring budget. I can't remember if there was or wasn't bacon back then, owing to vegetarian diet I never asked about the meats.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      British schools are apparently damned if they do, damned if they don’t. In the real world, they’re criticised for serving carcinogenic bacon (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/02/thousands-of-schools-serving-meals-that-could-contain-cancer-causing-chemicals https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/02/thousands-...), meanwhile in the imagination of weird internet people they have banned bacon.
    - orwin 3y ago
      You also have to serve an alternative. Source: I've worked with French schools in a previous life.
- dekhn 3y ago
  it's really just a tax form in the US: https://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Religion https://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Religion
- 3y ago
jzb 3y ago
Good for them. Either keep religion out of schools, or learn to accept that there's a wide variety of beliefs and that might mean some religions you don't feel comfortable with also holding events.
- akira2501 3y ago
  Without any context, and this article spares no time for that, it's hard to know if that's their actual position. According to Wikipedia the organization was started in protest to George Bush's faith based initiatives and was designed to get federal dollars while intentionally being repugnant. Which, is not the type of organization that puts it's obligation to after school activities at the top of it's list, and I'm not sure it's beneficial for anyone other than like minded ideologues who would rather engage in intentionally pugnacious protests rather than in any remedial civil actions. Finally, what action are they protesting exactly? That a public building is being used by religions organizations in an after school setting? Are students being forced to participate in any way? So, why then involve the students in your federal funding protest? The whole thing seems gaudy and desperate for attention.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    If you are truly curious about what their position is, you can read [1]. That page answers most of your questions. Click on "What do we believe". >while intentionally being repugnant Are you sure you looked at the Wiki for The Satanic Temple, and not some other Satanic organization? >Finally, what action are they protesting exactly? That a public building is being used by religions organizations in an after school setting? Almost, but not quite. In this case, it is the fact that only certain religions were/are being allowed in a public building but not other religions. They also protest and litigate against corporal punishment for children and in favor of reproductive rights, among other things. [1] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq
    - akira2501 3y ago
      > Cofounders Lucien Greaves and Malcolm Jarry met in 2012,[6][12] and The Satanic Temple was active by January 2013.[29] In an interview with The New York Times, Malcolm Jarry stated that the idea of starting a Satanic faith-based organization was first conceived to meet "all the Bush administration's criteria for receiving funds, but was repugnant to them". Quite literally, the first paragraph of their "History" section on wikipedia. > Almost, but not quite. In this case, it is the fact that only certain religions were/are being allowed in a public building but not other religions. That's the article I'd rather read. Do you happen to know of one that highlights this fact? I looked, but couldn't find any direct connection between a State action and this response. > They also protest and litigate against corporal punishment for children and reproductive rights, among other things. So do a lot of organizations that aren't trying to start after school programs, which was the thrust of my point, are the children legitimately being served by this or being used by this?
joecool1029 3y ago
There's been protest and litigation closer to me at a school's satanic temple club, it was settled just a few months back: https://apnews.com/article/satan-club-pennsylvania-lawsuit-112e1cd6a71d708accaee36c1815a975 https://apnews.com/article/satan-club-pennsylvania-lawsuit-1...
ziddoap 3y ago
A reminder that The Satanic Temple is not to be confused with the Church of Satan, as there has been a few comments in-thread which have confused the two. It's extremely common for them to be confused. The Satanic Temple was founded in 2013, and rejects many of the beliefs of other Satanic organizations. To see their differences from The Church of Satan, see [1]. I would encourage anyone remotely interested (positively or negatively) to read through their FAQ[2], and if you have the time, to peruse some of their recommended readings[3]. [1] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satani... [2] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq [3] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/the-satanic-temple-library https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/the-satanic-temple-librar...
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  The FAQ reads quite sane, in particular their belief list. But then they choose a weird mascot. Satan as a metaphor for the rebel is drowned by the other metaphors, like the ultimate evil, the liar who corrupts you, who will happily look nice and friendly if that's what is needed for the job. Especially if you then insist you don't believe in any supernatural, Satan included. It's a bit like an art movement in Hitler's name, insisting it's nothing to do with Nazism, and only his painting style. If you want to preach kindness and rational words thinking, but your symbol is a ram's head in a pentagram, then you can't be surprised people are terrified. I have no personal experience with this organization.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    I think you may have rather missed the point. If they set up the "fluffy bunny after school club", how much attention do you think it would have brought to the hypocrisies they're trying to highlight? There would have been no religious fundamentalists protesting outside, it would not have made international news, and the in-school Christian indoctrination would have continued unchallenged. (Full disclosure, I've donated to them in the past)
    - rich_sasha 3y ago
fallinghawks 3y ago
When religious people just can't deal with the fact that theirs is just one of many religions out there in the world, when they need their god to be the one true god, that's when they become a real problem. That leads to them calling all others evil and trying to impose their values on everyone else. I know it's blithe of me to say that's got to stop, but really, people really need to acknowledge that it's a big planet, not everyone is like them, and that unlike-ness doesn't make them evil.
- Gee8r9 3y ago
  [flagged]
gridspy 3y ago
Sounds like a dramatically effective name to garner attention for a critical-thinking club and force some of the worst traits of the opposition to the fore. Those religious signs are priceless: - There is power in the blood of Jesus - There is room at the cross. - The wages of sin is death - Schools in the name of Jesus It sounds like Christians trying as hard as they can to control the general population. Sounds like Tyranny. "This fight is between God and the satanic club, and God’s going to bring it down" So many wars have been fought in the name of god, and strangely many of them have been lost. I love the irony that the club only practices at schools which already have a religious club. You really cannot object to other religions holding attendance while yours continues. The more students actually think critically the more they realize that all religions are ridiculous. We just have to make the most of a positive life in a society in this material existence. People can be moral without the threat of a magical entity "with a big stick."
- quantified 3y ago
  Let's see what god does apart from the people. My money's on "nothing at all"
  - clipsy 3y ago
    The people protesting know that just as well as we do, amusingly -- otherwise they wouldn't feel any need to protest.
devonnull 3y ago
> All After School Satan Clubs … emphasize a scientific, rationalist, non-superstitious world view And the people protesting the club can't have that, can they?

61 points by wrx100 3y ago

akomtu 3y ago

[flagged]

urdbjtdvbg 3y ago
I can’t figure out if you are serious.
smoldesu 3y ago
To their credit, that quoted statement rejects the claim that they're a religiously motivated club. They outright state that the worship of Satan is not what they do (because they are non-theistic) and encouraging that would probably have you removed. Either way, moral apathy exists with or without religion, so I'd argue it's pointless to blame it on an optional extracurricular club (for teenagers). So far, the only instigators of conflict here seem to be religiously-involved adults. So long as individual self-expression is respected, I see no reason why Satan Club should be treated different from a religious fellowship or book club.
gridspy 3y ago
It's unclear from the article whither you are correct or you are offering a straw-man argument. Obviously the situation you are positing 1. You posit a distorted idea of "tyranny" - you extend it to all morals 2. You assume a second stage of Satan Worship, which might not be present. From the article it seems far more likely to be an Atheist club that chose a name to cause debate about the cultural capital religion has. Bear in mind that for centuries the church has been used as a means of control and to support autocrats and persecution. It's far more likely the Satanic club is objecting to that use.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  As an atheist club they wouldn't have the same constitutional protections that a religious club would have.
- akomtu 3y ago
  I don't assume. I believe everyone must be given a chance to make an informed choice, so every time those preachers of the left hand try to fool the naive folk, I feel it's my duty to give them a more complete picture. And if they still choose to jump off a cliff, then well, it's their right.
thefurdrake 3y ago
Ceding your concept of morality to a book someone wrote thousands of years ago is the pinnacle act of moral apathy. That level of apathy is revealed in the way you make your argument: Others' way(s) of life can't possible be moral because they're doing things differently... revealing a lazy mind incapable of compassion and unable to comprehend the values of others. Seriously, take a look at what you wrote and think about the implications of painting people involved in Not Your Preferred Religion as "naive followers" with "amoral apathy" that are lured into "actual worship"... which sounds a lot like how certain popular religious organizations slip into the philosophies of others who were better off without them, not that I'd name names. It'd be difficult, anyway, as the hypocrisy is usually thick with individuals who engage in these sorts of mental gymnastics. It's super common when TST gets involved, and it's always amusing to watch.

m_a_g 3y ago

> Speaking to WMC, ASSC’s national campaign director pushed back against criticisms, saying: “We don’t go to a school unless there is another religious club operating.” I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I really like this club and would consider sending my kids there.

more_corn 3y ago
Same. ‘the Satanic Temple was a non-theistic religion that views Satan as “a literary figure who represents a metaphorical construct of rejecting tyranny and championing the human mind and spirit”. “After School Satan Club does not attempt to convert children to any religious ideology. Instead, the Satanic Temple supports children to think for themselves. All After School Satan Clubs … emphasize a scientific, rationalist, non-superstitious world view,” ‘ The satanic temple was created specifically to counteract the damaging effects of organized religion. I see nothing objectionable in what they do. I’d have joined it as a kid (once i figured out what they were about). I’d have no problem sending my kid to a club that supports thinking for yourself and a scientific and rationalist approach to life. Keep in mind that the satanic temple does not believe in the literal existence of satan.

forward1 3y ago

[flagged]

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Rejected God? Embraces those who live their best life? Hail Satan.
- forward1 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - twojacobtwo 3y ago
    You switched 'god', from the parent post, to 'authority'. If I did the same lexical sleight-of-hand, I could switch it to 'tyranny'. Is rejecting tyranny mature enough? Or, just leave it at rejecting god, as plenty of mature individuals have done that.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - TylerE 3y ago
    It's essentially a parody/protest religion. Basically taking the idea of "Ok, you're gonna play the religious freedom card? How you like deez apples? If you want us out, you have to go too."
pwthornton 3y ago
I can only speak as a Christian, but a lot of the Bible and Christian teachings are kind of fascist. A lot of worshipping God, treating God and Jesus like King, God killing people, etc. Also, a lot of rules (many quite arbitrary and nonsensical). I could 100% see Satan considered some kind of champion of liberal and libertarian values.

Gee8r9 3y ago

Satan has a very strong meaning in Islam and other religions. This would not be possible in France or UK.

gridspy 3y ago
Are you claiming there is no religious freedom in France and the UK?
- Gee8r9 3y ago
  There is no bacon in school cafeteria...
  - ben_w 3y ago
    In the UK? That's probably just budget cuts. Even 25 years ago when I was a kid myself, the cafeterias were on a shoestring budget. I can't remember if there was or wasn't bacon back then, owing to vegetarian diet I never asked about the meats.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    British schools are apparently damned if they do, damned if they don’t. In the real world, they’re criticised for serving carcinogenic bacon (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/02/thousands-of-schools-serving-meals-that-could-contain-cancer-causing-chemicals https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/02/thousands-...), meanwhile in the imagination of weird internet people they have banned bacon.
  - orwin 3y ago
    You also have to serve an alternative. Source: I've worked with French schools in a previous life.
dekhn 3y ago
it's really just a tax form in the US: https://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Religion https://www.wikihow.com/Start-a-Religion
3y ago

jzb 3y ago

Good for them. Either keep religion out of schools, or learn to accept that there's a wide variety of beliefs and that might mean some religions you don't feel comfortable with also holding events.

akira2501 3y ago
Without any context, and this article spares no time for that, it's hard to know if that's their actual position. According to Wikipedia the organization was started in protest to George Bush's faith based initiatives and was designed to get federal dollars while intentionally being repugnant. Which, is not the type of organization that puts it's obligation to after school activities at the top of it's list, and I'm not sure it's beneficial for anyone other than like minded ideologues who would rather engage in intentionally pugnacious protests rather than in any remedial civil actions. Finally, what action are they protesting exactly? That a public building is being used by religions organizations in an after school setting? Are students being forced to participate in any way? So, why then involve the students in your federal funding protest? The whole thing seems gaudy and desperate for attention.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  If you are truly curious about what their position is, you can read [1]. That page answers most of your questions. Click on "What do we believe". >while intentionally being repugnant Are you sure you looked at the Wiki for The Satanic Temple, and not some other Satanic organization? >Finally, what action are they protesting exactly? That a public building is being used by religions organizations in an after school setting? Almost, but not quite. In this case, it is the fact that only certain religions were/are being allowed in a public building but not other religions. They also protest and litigate against corporal punishment for children and in favor of reproductive rights, among other things. [1] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq
  - akira2501 3y ago
    > Cofounders Lucien Greaves and Malcolm Jarry met in 2012,[6][12] and The Satanic Temple was active by January 2013.[29] In an interview with The New York Times, Malcolm Jarry stated that the idea of starting a Satanic faith-based organization was first conceived to meet "all the Bush administration's criteria for receiving funds, but was repugnant to them". Quite literally, the first paragraph of their "History" section on wikipedia. > Almost, but not quite. In this case, it is the fact that only certain religions were/are being allowed in a public building but not other religions. That's the article I'd rather read. Do you happen to know of one that highlights this fact? I looked, but couldn't find any direct connection between a State action and this response. > They also protest and litigate against corporal punishment for children and reproductive rights, among other things. So do a lot of organizations that aren't trying to start after school programs, which was the thrust of my point, are the children legitimately being served by this or being used by this?

joecool1029 3y ago

There's been protest and litigation closer to me at a school's satanic temple club, it was settled just a few months back: https://apnews.com/article/satan-club-pennsylvania-lawsuit-112e1cd6a71d708accaee36c1815a975 https://apnews.com/article/satan-club-pennsylvania-lawsuit-1...

ziddoap 3y ago

A reminder that The Satanic Temple is not to be confused with the Church of Satan, as there has been a few comments in-thread which have confused the two. It's extremely common for them to be confused. The Satanic Temple was founded in 2013, and rejects many of the beliefs of other Satanic organizations. To see their differences from The Church of Satan, see [1]. I would encourage anyone remotely interested (positively or negatively) to read through their FAQ[2], and if you have the time, to peruse some of their recommended readings[3]. [1] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satani... [2] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq [3] https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/the-satanic-temple-library https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/the-satanic-temple-librar...

rich_sasha 3y ago
The FAQ reads quite sane, in particular their belief list. But then they choose a weird mascot. Satan as a metaphor for the rebel is drowned by the other metaphors, like the ultimate evil, the liar who corrupts you, who will happily look nice and friendly if that's what is needed for the job. Especially if you then insist you don't believe in any supernatural, Satan included. It's a bit like an art movement in Hitler's name, insisting it's nothing to do with Nazism, and only his painting style. If you want to preach kindness and rational words thinking, but your symbol is a ram's head in a pentagram, then you can't be surprised people are terrified. I have no personal experience with this organization.
- drcongo 3y ago
  I think you may have rather missed the point. If they set up the "fluffy bunny after school club", how much attention do you think it would have brought to the hypocrisies they're trying to highlight? There would have been no religious fundamentalists protesting outside, it would not have made international news, and the in-school Christian indoctrination would have continued unchallenged. (Full disclosure, I've donated to them in the past)
  - rich_sasha 3y ago

fallinghawks 3y ago

When religious people just can't deal with the fact that theirs is just one of many religions out there in the world, when they need their god to be the one true god, that's when they become a real problem. That leads to them calling all others evil and trying to impose their values on everyone else. I know it's blithe of me to say that's got to stop, but really, people really need to acknowledge that it's a big planet, not everyone is like them, and that unlike-ness doesn't make them evil.

Gee8r9 3y ago
[flagged]

gridspy 3y ago

Sounds like a dramatically effective name to garner attention for a critical-thinking club and force some of the worst traits of the opposition to the fore. Those religious signs are priceless: - There is power in the blood of Jesus - There is room at the cross. - The wages of sin is death - Schools in the name of Jesus It sounds like Christians trying as hard as they can to control the general population. Sounds like Tyranny. "This fight is between God and the satanic club, and God’s going to bring it down" So many wars have been fought in the name of god, and strangely many of them have been lost. I love the irony that the club only practices at schools which already have a religious club. You really cannot object to other religions holding attendance while yours continues. The more students actually think critically the more they realize that all religions are ridiculous. We just have to make the most of a positive life in a society in this material existence. People can be moral without the threat of a magical entity "with a big stick."

quantified 3y ago
Let's see what god does apart from the people. My money's on "nothing at all"
- clipsy 3y ago
  The people protesting know that just as well as we do, amusingly -- otherwise they wouldn't feel any need to protest.

devonnull 3y ago

> All After School Satan Clubs … emphasize a scientific, rationalist, non-superstitious world view And the people protesting the club can't have that, can they?