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Contra Wirecutter on the IKEA air purifier (2022)

483 points by drdeca 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
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jofla_net 3y ago
what i like about the ikea model featured here is the size, can fit almost anywhere. I also bought several to replace a couple 20 year old foot-stool size units. Yes its not a rolls royce, but it gets %85 the way there.
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  If it were like a Rolls Royce, the spec sheet would simply say "Performance: Adequate"
chx 3y ago
Could someone make a neat blog post like this comparing the CleanSpace Halo to the Dyson Zone Visor? Thanks! I would be rather delighted if I could go among people without looking like someone straight out of a catastrophe movie. The Halo looks weird even for someone who wears "I am not weird, I am limited edition" t-shirts regularly. The Dyson looks much better but when I did an amateur comparison the performance appeared to be much weaker than the Halo.
- throwup238 3y ago
  You can't get decent performance from a respirator type device without a proper seal. The negative pressure created by inhaling is too large a volume and a tiny little fan won't be enough to push that much air fast enough, especially through any kind of filter. If you look at forced air respirators their external units have to be pretty bulky and that's with a full face mask. If you want clean air I'm afraid you'll forever have to walk around like an extra on Contagion.
  - chx 3y ago
    Thanks. I will stay with the Halo then.
croes 3y ago
>So it seems Wirecutter is using “true-HEPA” to mean “H13”. >Except—what’s the logic here? This difference is core to Wirecutter’s dismissal of the IKEA purifier. According to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#Specifications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#Specifications H13 is HEPA, everything below is EPA. Or simpler, if it starts with an H it's HEPA, if it starts with an E it's EPA.
- jerlam 3y ago
  The idea that "only HEPA-rated filters are acceptable" is bonkers and also internally inconsistent. Two of their "also great" recommendations are Blueair purifiers, which do not have HEPA-rated filters.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    Did you mean to imply that Blueair filters as a rule don't have HEPA-rated filters?
    - stavros 3y ago
      I read the sentence as "their two specific Blueair recommendations don't have HEPA-rated filters".
      - wtallis 3y ago
        That's what seemed to be the most likely intended meaning, but the comma throws it off.
        j33zusjuice 3y ago
        No it doesn’t. The comment’s syntax is correct. Commas before “which,” and not before “that.” https://www.dictionary.com/e/that-vs-which/# https://www.dictionary.com/e/that-vs-which/# The actual problem is the usage of “which.” If they’re Blueair purifiers that happen to not have HEPA filters, they should have made the clause essential/restrictive. If all Blueair filters lack a HEPA filter, then adding that they don’t have HEPA filters as clarification is non-essential. So I understand your confusion, it’s just not for the reason you said it was.
brunoqc 3y ago
How good is to tape a hepa filter to a box fan? I think I recall a marketplace episode where a scientific or whatever said that it was better than some shitty products and good enough for the small price.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/diy-1-1-air-purifier/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/diy-1-1-air-purifier/
- londons_explore 3y ago
  For PM10/PM2.5, it's very good. Most filters and box fans are oversize for even a large house - you can typically get away with a CPU fan and much smaller filter and still have it clear the air to pretty much zzero PM2.5 in a few hours. Probably minimal impact on other pollutants (VOC's, NOX, CO, etc)... Many professional air purifiers don't make any claims about those either tho.
- ska 3y ago
  For home use it should work fine, after all it's functionally basically what most of the systems, especially the cheaper ones, are. Especially if you add a pre-filter of some sort. The main downsides are comparatively ugly and noisy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Box fans have very low static pressure so airflow drops, very rapidly, as the filter starts to accumulate dust and its resistance to airflow goes up. This is mitigated by using four filters - constructing a frame that holds them top and sides - and the box fan goes on the bottom, with legs to hold it off the floor. Box fans are also very noisy. The box-fan design was intended mostly for people in wildfire areas who needed something to mitigate smoke inside their homes.
- Bloating 3y ago
poidos 3y ago
After reading this article when it was posted in 2022 and the author's other post on particulates[0] I bought the sqair[1], which we are very happy with. Allergies and morning congestion are nearly 0 after using it. We live on a very busy road so I run it all the time and with the carbon filter as well. I would like to get a second one eventually -- it only cleans 430 sqft of air and our condo is 730. [0]: https://dynomight.net/air/#things-that-create-particles-indoors https://dynomight.net/air/#things-that-create-particles-indo... [1]: https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/sqair-air-purifier/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/sqair-air-purifier/
- mac-mc 3y ago
  An issue I've found is outdoor air ventilation vs. air filtration vs. humidity management is a tricky thing to balance overall when you don't have a central HVAC system with an ERV installed, especially when you live near a busy road or have allergy issues. If you add a CO2 monitor to your air monitoring, you'll start to see where this becomes a hard thing to balance without a large ERV or other specialized ventilation systems. On top of that, living near a highway might not show issues on your PM2.5 / PM10 monitor, but it still shows in health statistics according to studies.
  - 7thaccount 3y ago
    I assume it shows up on health statistics because virtually nobody has multiple MRV13 filters in their house running all day. They probably don't even have a decent air filter for their homes AC.
  - christiangenco 3y ago
    ERVs are crucial for keeping CO2 and VOCs low. You can install one in a window! https://gen.co/air https://gen.co/air
- gniv 3y ago
  After reading all this talk about HEPA filters and 99.95% vs 99.5%, it's funny to read on that Sqair page "H12 HEPA (99.5%)". There's no such thing as H12 according to that wikipedia page for HEPA standards.
Mister_Snuggles 3y ago
I really like this purifier's big brother, the IKEA STARKVIND, which is available in both regular[0] and table[1] versions. The table version is nice because, assuming you place it somewhere you want a table, it takes up no room. The regular version is awkwardly large, so placement is a bit more of a challenge. The killer feature for me is that its air quality measurements and controls are all exposed via Zigbee, and it works very well with Zigbee2MQTT and Home Assistant. Related to this, IKEA has recently brought out the VINDSTRYKA[2] air quality sensor. Unfortunately the PM2.5 measurement (as reported by Zigbee2MQTT/Home Assistant) doesn't seem to match up with the same measurement reported by the STARKVIND. To be fair this is just a feeling, I have NOT conducted head-to-head testing. [0] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-air-purifier-white-smart-00461949/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-air-purifier-white-sm... [1] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-table-with-air-purifier-stained-oak-veneer-white-smart-80461974/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-table-with-air-purifi... [2] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/vindstyrka-air-quality-sensor-smart-30498239/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/vindstyrka-air-quality-sensor-s...
- timenova 3y ago
  Where do you keep the air quality sensor? I suspect that if you keep it away from the purifier, and closer to where you sit in the room, it's a more real representation of the air quality. Usually the air around the purifier would be purer than other parts of the room until an equilibrium has reached. I haven't done extensive testing to validate this theory either, just a hunch. Let me know if my hunch is incorrect.
  - Mister_Snuggles 3y ago
    Right now the air quality sensor is in the basement, and the purifiers I'm comparing it to are upstairs. It's not a fair comparison, it just "seems" to be reporting using a different scale. My plan is to put the sensor near one of my STARKVINDs and see how the numbers compare. This will tell me if they're measuring the same thing and reporting it at the same scale. Once I understand what the sensor is telling me a bit better, I'll put it in a more useful place. Your suggestion of putting it closer to where you sit is a very good one.
thadk 3y ago
I owned that IKEA purifier and it didn't clear the dust sufficiently for my dust mite allergy compared to similarly sized Coway filters. Also it wasn't as straightforward to clean off large pre-filtered dust particles. Avoid. Maybe try the STARKVIND one instead.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  I don’t understand, the cheaper IKEA purifier (FÖRNUFTIG) uses its entire front side, covered with fabric, as the pre-filter. To clean it, you stop the purifier and vacuum clean the front side, which takes 15 seconds. The more expensive round one (STARKVIND) doesn’t use its fabric covered front as the pre-filter (it’s actually solid) and instead has a separate fine mesh (not that fine though) layer underneath. To clean that, you have to take the front side off first, which takes a bit longer.
  - thadk 3y ago
    Thanks, see the sibling comment response below. I use the Wirecutter's Coway unit recommendation mostly. I have not tried the larger IKEA unit but at least it seemed to mitigate what I mention there. I did try washing the article's unit "prefilter" but it didn't seem to catch anything vs. the Coway.
- amluto 3y ago
  Dust mite allergens are huge compared to all the PM2.5 crud that air filters mostly worry about. Almost any filter will remove dust mite allergens that actually get in the filter. Try the usual low-tech stuff: wash bedding in hot water. Encase your mattress and pillows in appropriate material (very fine mesh or a membrane — there are products sold for this exact purpose, and mattress spill protectors work too). Wash those protectors occasionally in hot water as well. Fit a HEPA filter on your vacuum and vacuum regularly. Wear a mask while cleaning. Also, dust mites need quite high relative humidity to grow and moderately high RH to even survive. This is relative humidity where the dust mites are. So if you can arrange to keep any rugs and carpets that you have warm, they will have lower RH and fewer dust mites.
timenova 3y ago
I bought this air purifier after reading this article and researching more. The biggest advantage of this air purifier compared to others on the market is its cost of replacing the air filter. It's significantly cheaper than others. I stay in a city with considerably high air pollution 2/3rds of the year, and this has done a wonderful job of cleaning the air. Plus, Ikea sells a tiny air quality sensor separately, so you can measure the quality of the air near where you're sitting, not where the purifier is.
chpatrick 3y ago
The only people I trust for recommendations nowadays are obsessive specialist subreddits and Stiftung Warentest. I haven't trusted Wirecutter since they were offering recommendations for kickbacks.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  90% of the stuff written is just utter trash. I'm not joking when I say the hairdryer article amounted to "trust this person because she's used hair dryers for a long time." She was measuring airflow speed out of the hair dryers but not volume. Absolute moron.
  - sushid 3y ago
    That's the impression I get from Wirecutter. They're not unethical per se, but these reviewers appear to have picked up a task from their long list of products to reviews and have done the bare minimum at best.
  - annexrichmond 3y ago
    And now they want you to be subscriber for their trash content that likely only reviews products from companies with affiliate programs
  - somat 3y ago
    I am not really arguing as you are correct about the low quality, however, that is how you measure air volume. Measure the air speed and multiply it by vent area. Hopefully(i doubt it) they included how big the vent was. Additionally. I am a bit weak on my physics but I think air speed has a direct relationship with evaporating liquids. I would have to see some controlled tests. but hypothesis: given the same volume of air per minute. a higher speed will evaporate water faster, with specific testing on high surface area targets(like hair) for example: them stupid dyson dryers that project a super high speed low area stream of air
- LeanderK 3y ago
  > Stiftung Warentest does something like this exist outside of germany? Having a Stiftung Warentest subscription always strikes me particularly german.
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
As informative as I’m sure this blog post is, I had to stop reading it a paragraph or two in because its overly aggressive and snarky tone makes it completely unemployable. I am not Wirecutter. I am a nobody reading a blog post. I am not the subject of this ridicule yet I am somehow the recipient of it. If you’ve got a good point to make the proof will be in the pudding without having to be overly vitriolic on the Internet. If there was an iota of intent to have someone at Wirecutter see this, being this aggressive only serves to have them dig their heels in. It’s needlessly emotional and self-indulgent when the subject is…air purifiers? Christ.
- physPop 3y ago
  I found it fun to read. Maybe it says something about you that you're personally offended by reading?
- wilg 3y ago
  It does include a "[Content warning: Polemic]" right up top! Also honestly it's not that spicy. > If there was an iota of intent to have someone at Wirecutter see this, being this aggressive only serves to have them dig their heels in. That's their problem, though!
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
    Well…I found it to be? One can put as many disclaimers as one wants on something, but Michael Bluth will always be right in being a tad confused as to why there was a dead dove in his fridge.
    - wilg 3y ago
      Yeah, well, only so much you can do. Tone is subjective.
      - santoshalper 3y ago
        Not really. How much you care about tone is certainly personal, but it's extremely easy to consistently analyze tone and sentiment from written or spoken text. This stuff is not mysterious.
deleted 3y ago
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whazor 3y ago
The cheap IKEA air purifier has another huge benefit: you can control it with a smart socket. So hook it up to a tasmota smart plug and you will have a smart purifier.
- ska 3y ago
  From this thread, the bigger IKEA one seems to have smarts built in.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    It does and it works great, but it’s about twice as expensive. The cheaper one, on the other hand, has zero smart features, and the only dial on the top directly controls the speed of the fan, with nice mechanical steps. So you can preselect the speed and then cut power as needed with your smart outlet. That’s, unfortunately, not the norm anymore. My cheap dehumidifier has no smart features, but is sufficiently complicated with its programs and buttons that it resets after a power cut.
- mgradowski 3y ago
  UNIX philosophy is alive and well.
deleted 3y ago
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turtlebits 3y ago
My only issue with the IKEA filter is that it's sized too small to run quietly for any of my rooms - IKEA says 85sf on low. (My smallest room is 110sf) I guess it's okay for closets? Also if I'm going to add an appliance to my home, why not pick the highest filtration possible? (if not unreasonably expensive)
- Aurornis 3y ago
  Those ratings are somewhat arbitrary. If you run it long enough and you’re not cycling the room air with external air constantly, it will be fine.
  - turtlebits 3y ago
    Ratings are important. For allergies, 4x air changes per hour is recommended.
    - Aurornis 3y ago
      > Ratings are important. Yes, but they're not binary. Being slightly undersized doesn't mean it stops working altogether. > For allergies, 4x air changes per hour is recommended. If you have an allergy problem, the last thing you want to do is replace the filtered inside air with outside air every 15 minutes.
      - SamBam 3y ago
        I think the implication is 4 full filtrations per hour, not 4 air changes. Air purifiers still sometimes call this "air changes" or sometimes "equivalent air changes" (e-AC/hr).
boringuser2 3y ago
It seems that whenever you have expertise in a given area it becomes apparent that Wirecutter gives laughable recommendations. Their mattress recommendations, from someone whom has spent large amounts of time trying to piece together what little exists of mattress "science", straddle the border between comical and negligent. Consumer Reports is similar.
- klausa 3y ago
  Do you have results on your research written up somewhere?
- SamBam 3y ago
  I dunno, I went with their mattress recommendation (at least the one of three years ago, don't know what it is now) and lived it, it's the first mattress I've really liked since becoming an adult.
  - boringuser2 3y ago
    Mattresses are highly subjective, especially because a decent chunk of the population doesn't have particular requirements for one (i.e. no back or neck problems and general health make it easy to sleep on a rock). However, there is a discrete consistency to picking a durable mattress that has advantageous qualities such as support and whatnot, and none of those mattresses are made of quality, durable materials that will provide lasting benefits for sensitive people.
DannyBee 3y ago
Filters also have loading specs which seems everyone ignored. The guarantee is not that they remove x% of particles at y size, instantly, but that they settle at that efficiency after z level of loading That also likely accounts for differences in some results - nobody seems to have taken this into accounts (There are filter rating systems where z=0, for example n95 filters. That is rare in HVAC and general air purification though)
practice9 3y ago
Aren't most websites like Wirecutter in the business of paid reviews / affiliate marketing?
tptacek 3y ago
Fun sequence of posts from the same author: https://dynomight.net/thanks-3/ https://dynomight.net/thanks-3/
stavros 3y ago
I got the IKEA air quality sensor, and it's always around 5-6 μg/m3, but my bane is cat hair. We have two cats and there's always hair in the air. Is there a filter that will remove those out of the air, and stop me breathing them all the time?
- jccooper 3y ago
  Almost any filter will handle cat hair. You probably want to find something with a washable pre-filter (usually a stretch fabric) so you don't waste the expensive actual filter. If that's your only concern, a t-shirt over a box fan will probably do the job.
  - stavros 3y ago
    I tried to make a makeshift filter, but it failed. I guess the box fan wasn't boxy enough. I'll try again, thank you!
rapind 3y ago
If you don’t care about looks, grab yourself four 20x20x2” furnace filters of your preferred rating (merv 13), a 20” box fan for $20 and some duct tape. Assemble into a cube with the fan on top and filters on the sides. Add a cardboard cutout to the bottom if you want. Make sure you orient the fan and filters so that airflow comes into the filters (sucked) and out through the fan. Replace filters every year or less if you use it constantly.
quickthrower2 3y ago
I didn't know this much about filters before. Let's look at 2 situations. One is you are running the same air through the filter all day. The other is you are using a vacuum cleaner that is sucking up dust from the floor and pumping out that air. I assume in the vacuum cleaner case, you are better off with a higher performing filter since you need to trap that dust on first pass through, whereas with the filter that is circulating the air all day, you get a "second chance" to capture a given particle?
froglets 3y ago
I’m surprised that air purifiers without UV lamps seem to be the standard. If you’re going to buy something to clean the air, why not have the option to also kill bacteria/viruses/mold spores if any? Especially in houses like mine with kids spewing all kinds of contagion everywhere.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  The article mentions that. First, you’d have to slow down the passage of the particles through the purifier enough so that the UV light could kill everything, which is inconvenient. Second, the filter is supposed to trap the particles and remove them from the environment anyway.
0x53 3y ago
My wire cutter disagreement is their flashlight recommendation. They recommend a AA battery flashlight from Amazon that in my opinion is terrible (https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-flashlight/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-flashlight/). This article indicates that maybe the referral money is a factor. I wonder how much influence that has.
BarbaryCoast 3y ago
Most of this guy's questions could have been answered by reading the very Wikipedia article he cites. For example, "a HEPA air filter must remove—from the air that passes through—at least 99.95% (ISO, European Standard) or 99.97% (ASME, U.S. DOE) of particles whose diameter is equal to 0.3 μm". So, yes the H13 filter meets this spec (99.95%), and the E12 does not. If he didn't trust the Wikipedia authors, he could always follow their references to check for himself. The question of whether H13 vs E12 actually matters is likely to depend on application and environment. Providing factual information, perhaps taking the position that the IKEA filter is "good enough" despite the review, would have been welcome. Then each reader can evaluate all those factors for themselves. Whenever I checked his quotes from The Wirecutter, I found that WC had it right, and blogger had it wrong. I stopped reading in detail after the first two sections, then just skimmed the rest.
IndySun 3y ago
Ta dah... I've finally been reading Hackernews long enough to notice bigger stories repeat. Where's Dang when he/she/they is/are needed? Previously... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38931559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38931559
heeen2 3y ago
I don't really care about airborne germs, spores or exhaust particulates, but our basement collects a TON of dust that looks like dryer lint and requires a daily sweep with a vacuum cleaner. I wonder if the ikea and similar air purifiers are overkill for that and if there's a solution that is more effective for this kind of dust but with less noise/less power.
- callalex 3y ago
  A box fan with the cheapest furnace filter you can find at the hardware store. Just one on its lowest setting will handle large particulates in a basement. If that’s inadequate, since you mentioned noise as a concern, two box fans with filters on low is better than one box fan with a filter on medium, and filters even more air. Edit: if you really are cleaning DAILY then there is something else wrong that really should be addressed. Either a clogged dryer vent, a horribly leaky HVAC system, or a completely failed building seal somewhere. The filters will certainly solve your problem but even with the cheap stuff you will be going through a lot of filters if you don’t solve the underlying issue.
- Doxin 3y ago
  You might want to check the relative humidity in your basement. Mold can create a rather silly quantity of spores if left unchecked.
jononomo 3y ago
I've often wondered about whether massive outdoor air filters (the size of multi story buildings) could be used to improved the quality of outdoor air. I don't want to breathe particulates when I'm outside my home, either.
steveBK123 3y ago
Anyone in the market for air purifiers should also check out the Coway line, very good products, been using them ~7 years in various form factors.
Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago
In regards to true HEPA https://web.archive.org/web/20210225051425/http://www.air-purifier-power.com/hepatypefilter.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210225051425/http://www.air-pu...
iNic 3y ago
I just want to say that dynomight also has a great article on air purification in general: https://dynomight.net/air/ https://dynomight.net/air/.
jononomo 3y ago
An excellent and informative article.
free_bip 3y ago
What's funny is this article is a much better advertisement for IKEA air filters than IKEA themselves do...
- bacheaul 3y ago
  Yep, we actually bought a bunch for our house after reading this article. Bang for buck for the device, filters, and power usage is difficult to beat.
Paul-Craft 3y ago
Needs (2022).
grobbyy 3y ago
My experience is Wirecutter recommended process products most of the time, and isn't very clueful in how it evaluates them. It's that's Sharper Image vibe. Best air filter would use standard home furnace filters. Those are cheap and good enough. Most of the money should be on the fan. High efficieny, high load, low noise fans are expensive.
- hyperbovine 3y ago
  The Wirecutter model is to take what Consumer Reports reports used to do and eliminate all the hard parts like actually learning the science behind the product, performing serious long-term evaluations, and building funky stress testing machines. (And the big one, not accepting advertiser dollars.) What's left? Some underqualified millenials doing a bunch of Googling, buying some products off Amazon, chatting about them on a Slack thread, and then summarizing all the anecdata using no fewer than 10000 referral-generating words. Suffice it to say I find their recommendations basically useless. And in several cases aggressively wrong, like they recommend a product I know from personal experience to be among the worst in its category.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    You've got people like Project Farm over on YT. He does really good, rigourous stuff. He did a test on wiper blades where tested them new, then left them on the roof of his house in the sun for a full year, and then did all the tests again. He also rarely states firm conclusions, just presents objective data. The only real exception is when one, or a few products standout as either exceptionally good (especially when they're NOT the most expensive) or they do so poorly as to be totally unfit for purpose or even unsafe. The products he reviews tend to be sort of workshop oriented (tools - from basic open end wrenches up to fairly capable welders and chainsaws, lubricants, that kind of thing), but he's also done a fair bit of automotive stuff, jeans, gloves, and things like that.' For the jeans, he tested stuff like puncture force (with a nail), abrasion resistance, belt loop strength, and breathability. He also commented on but did not score fit and comfort.
    - 3y ago
js2 3y ago
Previous discussion (1474 points by Ariarule on June 20, 2022 | 708 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812259
genman 3y ago
Go with the one that has lower actual operating noise levels.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  Some people (well, me at least) like the air purifier to make some white noise. Mine doesn't turn on automatically if, for example, the power cuts out and then comes on again, and I always notice it within a few minutes because the house feels weird without any background noise.
  - staplers 3y ago
    White noise is proven to degrade sleep and focus unless masking more distracting noise
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
      I always love it with someone proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid because Science declared it so. This isn’t even how academics talk about things like this.
      - staplers 3y ago
        proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid I did no such thing.
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        > I always love it with someone proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid because Science declared it so. Also, this is not proven. I suspect the parent is thinking about https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/18/white-noise-as-sleep-aid-may-do-more-harm-than-good-say-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/18/white-n..., which cites https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079220301283 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870..., which found 1 study out of 38 which "suggested the noise may lead to more disrupted sleep" and concludes that more research is needed. Of course, individuals may find white noise personally irritating or distracting, and continuous loud noise of any sort is bad. But for others, noise can also help with relaxation, concentration, and sound masking. (I personally find white noise irritating, but I like brown noise.)
kwertyoowiyop 3y ago
Seems like the author knows their stuff, but I’d trust it even more without the snarky tone.
- santoshalper 3y ago
  I wouldn't be an annoyed as he is if I had personally designed the IKEA air purifier.

483 points by drdeca 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

what i like about the ikea model featured here is the size, can fit almost anywhere. I also bought several to replace a couple 20 year old foot-stool size units. Yes its not a rolls royce, but it gets %85 the way there.

Kon-Peki 3y ago
If it were like a Rolls Royce, the spec sheet would simply say "Performance: Adequate"

chx 3y ago

Could someone make a neat blog post like this comparing the CleanSpace Halo to the Dyson Zone Visor? Thanks! I would be rather delighted if I could go among people without looking like someone straight out of a catastrophe movie. The Halo looks weird even for someone who wears "I am not weird, I am limited edition" t-shirts regularly. The Dyson looks much better but when I did an amateur comparison the performance appeared to be much weaker than the Halo.

throwup238 3y ago
You can't get decent performance from a respirator type device without a proper seal. The negative pressure created by inhaling is too large a volume and a tiny little fan won't be enough to push that much air fast enough, especially through any kind of filter. If you look at forced air respirators their external units have to be pretty bulky and that's with a full face mask. If you want clean air I'm afraid you'll forever have to walk around like an extra on Contagion.
- chx 3y ago
  Thanks. I will stay with the Halo then.

croes 3y ago

>So it seems Wirecutter is using “true-HEPA” to mean “H13”. >Except—what’s the logic here? This difference is core to Wirecutter’s dismissal of the IKEA purifier. According to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#Specifications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#Specifications H13 is HEPA, everything below is EPA. Or simpler, if it starts with an H it's HEPA, if it starts with an E it's EPA.

jerlam 3y ago
The idea that "only HEPA-rated filters are acceptable" is bonkers and also internally inconsistent. Two of their "also great" recommendations are Blueair purifiers, which do not have HEPA-rated filters.
- wtallis 3y ago
  Did you mean to imply that Blueair filters as a rule don't have HEPA-rated filters?
  - stavros 3y ago
    I read the sentence as "their two specific Blueair recommendations don't have HEPA-rated filters".
    - wtallis 3y ago
      That's what seemed to be the most likely intended meaning, but the comma throws it off.
      - j33zusjuice 3y ago
        No it doesn’t. The comment’s syntax is correct. Commas before “which,” and not before “that.” https://www.dictionary.com/e/that-vs-which/# https://www.dictionary.com/e/that-vs-which/# The actual problem is the usage of “which.” If they’re Blueair purifiers that happen to not have HEPA filters, they should have made the clause essential/restrictive. If all Blueair filters lack a HEPA filter, then adding that they don’t have HEPA filters as clarification is non-essential. So I understand your confusion, it’s just not for the reason you said it was.

brunoqc 3y ago

How good is to tape a hepa filter to a box fan? I think I recall a marketplace episode where a scientific or whatever said that it was better than some shitty products and good enough for the small price.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/diy-1-1-air-purifier/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/diy-1-1-air-purifier/
londons_explore 3y ago
For PM10/PM2.5, it's very good. Most filters and box fans are oversize for even a large house - you can typically get away with a CPU fan and much smaller filter and still have it clear the air to pretty much zzero PM2.5 in a few hours. Probably minimal impact on other pollutants (VOC's, NOX, CO, etc)... Many professional air purifiers don't make any claims about those either tho.
ska 3y ago
For home use it should work fine, after all it's functionally basically what most of the systems, especially the cheaper ones, are. Especially if you add a pre-filter of some sort. The main downsides are comparatively ugly and noisy.
deleted 3y ago
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KennyBlanken 3y ago
Box fans have very low static pressure so airflow drops, very rapidly, as the filter starts to accumulate dust and its resistance to airflow goes up. This is mitigated by using four filters - constructing a frame that holds them top and sides - and the box fan goes on the bottom, with legs to hold it off the floor. Box fans are also very noisy. The box-fan design was intended mostly for people in wildfire areas who needed something to mitigate smoke inside their homes.
Bloating 3y ago

poidos 3y ago

After reading this article when it was posted in 2022 and the author's other post on particulates[0] I bought the sqair[1], which we are very happy with. Allergies and morning congestion are nearly 0 after using it. We live on a very busy road so I run it all the time and with the carbon filter as well. I would like to get a second one eventually -- it only cleans 430 sqft of air and our condo is 730. [0]: https://dynomight.net/air/#things-that-create-particles-indoors https://dynomight.net/air/#things-that-create-particles-indo... [1]: https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/sqair-air-purifier/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/product/sqair-air-purifier/

mac-mc 3y ago
An issue I've found is outdoor air ventilation vs. air filtration vs. humidity management is a tricky thing to balance overall when you don't have a central HVAC system with an ERV installed, especially when you live near a busy road or have allergy issues. If you add a CO2 monitor to your air monitoring, you'll start to see where this becomes a hard thing to balance without a large ERV or other specialized ventilation systems. On top of that, living near a highway might not show issues on your PM2.5 / PM10 monitor, but it still shows in health statistics according to studies.
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  I assume it shows up on health statistics because virtually nobody has multiple MRV13 filters in their house running all day. They probably don't even have a decent air filter for their homes AC.
- christiangenco 3y ago
  ERVs are crucial for keeping CO2 and VOCs low. You can install one in a window! https://gen.co/air https://gen.co/air
gniv 3y ago
After reading all this talk about HEPA filters and 99.95% vs 99.5%, it's funny to read on that Sqair page "H12 HEPA (99.5%)". There's no such thing as H12 according to that wikipedia page for HEPA standards.

Mister_Snuggles 3y ago

I really like this purifier's big brother, the IKEA STARKVIND, which is available in both regular[0] and table[1] versions. The table version is nice because, assuming you place it somewhere you want a table, it takes up no room. The regular version is awkwardly large, so placement is a bit more of a challenge. The killer feature for me is that its air quality measurements and controls are all exposed via Zigbee, and it works very well with Zigbee2MQTT and Home Assistant. Related to this, IKEA has recently brought out the VINDSTRYKA[2] air quality sensor. Unfortunately the PM2.5 measurement (as reported by Zigbee2MQTT/Home Assistant) doesn't seem to match up with the same measurement reported by the STARKVIND. To be fair this is just a feeling, I have NOT conducted head-to-head testing. [0] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-air-purifier-white-smart-00461949/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-air-purifier-white-sm... [1] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-table-with-air-purifier-stained-oak-veneer-white-smart-80461974/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/starkvind-table-with-air-purifi... [2] https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/vindstyrka-air-quality-sensor-smart-30498239/ https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/vindstyrka-air-quality-sensor-s...

timenova 3y ago
Where do you keep the air quality sensor? I suspect that if you keep it away from the purifier, and closer to where you sit in the room, it's a more real representation of the air quality. Usually the air around the purifier would be purer than other parts of the room until an equilibrium has reached. I haven't done extensive testing to validate this theory either, just a hunch. Let me know if my hunch is incorrect.
- Mister_Snuggles 3y ago
  Right now the air quality sensor is in the basement, and the purifiers I'm comparing it to are upstairs. It's not a fair comparison, it just "seems" to be reporting using a different scale. My plan is to put the sensor near one of my STARKVINDs and see how the numbers compare. This will tell me if they're measuring the same thing and reporting it at the same scale. Once I understand what the sensor is telling me a bit better, I'll put it in a more useful place. Your suggestion of putting it closer to where you sit is a very good one.

thadk 3y ago

I owned that IKEA purifier and it didn't clear the dust sufficiently for my dust mite allergy compared to similarly sized Coway filters. Also it wasn't as straightforward to clean off large pre-filtered dust particles. Avoid. Maybe try the STARKVIND one instead.

Toutouxc 3y ago
I don’t understand, the cheaper IKEA purifier (FÖRNUFTIG) uses its entire front side, covered with fabric, as the pre-filter. To clean it, you stop the purifier and vacuum clean the front side, which takes 15 seconds. The more expensive round one (STARKVIND) doesn’t use its fabric covered front as the pre-filter (it’s actually solid) and instead has a separate fine mesh (not that fine though) layer underneath. To clean that, you have to take the front side off first, which takes a bit longer.
- thadk 3y ago
  Thanks, see the sibling comment response below. I use the Wirecutter's Coway unit recommendation mostly. I have not tried the larger IKEA unit but at least it seemed to mitigate what I mention there. I did try washing the article's unit "prefilter" but it didn't seem to catch anything vs. the Coway.
amluto 3y ago
Dust mite allergens are huge compared to all the PM2.5 crud that air filters mostly worry about. Almost any filter will remove dust mite allergens that actually get in the filter. Try the usual low-tech stuff: wash bedding in hot water. Encase your mattress and pillows in appropriate material (very fine mesh or a membrane — there are products sold for this exact purpose, and mattress spill protectors work too). Wash those protectors occasionally in hot water as well. Fit a HEPA filter on your vacuum and vacuum regularly. Wear a mask while cleaning. Also, dust mites need quite high relative humidity to grow and moderately high RH to even survive. This is relative humidity where the dust mites are. So if you can arrange to keep any rugs and carpets that you have warm, they will have lower RH and fewer dust mites.

timenova 3y ago

I bought this air purifier after reading this article and researching more. The biggest advantage of this air purifier compared to others on the market is its cost of replacing the air filter. It's significantly cheaper than others. I stay in a city with considerably high air pollution 2/3rds of the year, and this has done a wonderful job of cleaning the air. Plus, Ikea sells a tiny air quality sensor separately, so you can measure the quality of the air near where you're sitting, not where the purifier is.

chpatrick 3y ago

The only people I trust for recommendations nowadays are obsessive specialist subreddits and Stiftung Warentest. I haven't trusted Wirecutter since they were offering recommendations for kickbacks.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
90% of the stuff written is just utter trash. I'm not joking when I say the hairdryer article amounted to "trust this person because she's used hair dryers for a long time." She was measuring airflow speed out of the hair dryers but not volume. Absolute moron.
- sushid 3y ago
  That's the impression I get from Wirecutter. They're not unethical per se, but these reviewers appear to have picked up a task from their long list of products to reviews and have done the bare minimum at best.
- annexrichmond 3y ago
  And now they want you to be subscriber for their trash content that likely only reviews products from companies with affiliate programs
- somat 3y ago
  I am not really arguing as you are correct about the low quality, however, that is how you measure air volume. Measure the air speed and multiply it by vent area. Hopefully(i doubt it) they included how big the vent was. Additionally. I am a bit weak on my physics but I think air speed has a direct relationship with evaporating liquids. I would have to see some controlled tests. but hypothesis: given the same volume of air per minute. a higher speed will evaporate water faster, with specific testing on high surface area targets(like hair) for example: them stupid dyson dryers that project a super high speed low area stream of air
LeanderK 3y ago
> Stiftung Warentest does something like this exist outside of germany? Having a Stiftung Warentest subscription always strikes me particularly german.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago

As informative as I’m sure this blog post is, I had to stop reading it a paragraph or two in because its overly aggressive and snarky tone makes it completely unemployable. I am not Wirecutter. I am a nobody reading a blog post. I am not the subject of this ridicule yet I am somehow the recipient of it. If you’ve got a good point to make the proof will be in the pudding without having to be overly vitriolic on the Internet. If there was an iota of intent to have someone at Wirecutter see this, being this aggressive only serves to have them dig their heels in. It’s needlessly emotional and self-indulgent when the subject is…air purifiers? Christ.

physPop 3y ago
I found it fun to read. Maybe it says something about you that you're personally offended by reading?
wilg 3y ago
It does include a "[Content warning: Polemic]" right up top! Also honestly it's not that spicy. > If there was an iota of intent to have someone at Wirecutter see this, being this aggressive only serves to have them dig their heels in. That's their problem, though!
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Well…I found it to be? One can put as many disclaimers as one wants on something, but Michael Bluth will always be right in being a tad confused as to why there was a dead dove in his fridge.
  - wilg 3y ago
    Yeah, well, only so much you can do. Tone is subjective.
    - santoshalper 3y ago
      Not really. How much you care about tone is certainly personal, but it's extremely easy to consistently analyze tone and sentiment from written or spoken text. This stuff is not mysterious.

deleted 3y ago

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whazor 3y ago

The cheap IKEA air purifier has another huge benefit: you can control it with a smart socket. So hook it up to a tasmota smart plug and you will have a smart purifier.

ska 3y ago
From this thread, the bigger IKEA one seems to have smarts built in.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  It does and it works great, but it’s about twice as expensive. The cheaper one, on the other hand, has zero smart features, and the only dial on the top directly controls the speed of the fan, with nice mechanical steps. So you can preselect the speed and then cut power as needed with your smart outlet. That’s, unfortunately, not the norm anymore. My cheap dehumidifier has no smart features, but is sufficiently complicated with its programs and buttons that it resets after a power cut.
mgradowski 3y ago
UNIX philosophy is alive and well.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

turtlebits 3y ago

My only issue with the IKEA filter is that it's sized too small to run quietly for any of my rooms - IKEA says 85sf on low. (My smallest room is 110sf) I guess it's okay for closets? Also if I'm going to add an appliance to my home, why not pick the highest filtration possible? (if not unreasonably expensive)

Aurornis 3y ago
Those ratings are somewhat arbitrary. If you run it long enough and you’re not cycling the room air with external air constantly, it will be fine.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Ratings are important. For allergies, 4x air changes per hour is recommended.
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > Ratings are important. Yes, but they're not binary. Being slightly undersized doesn't mean it stops working altogether. > For allergies, 4x air changes per hour is recommended. If you have an allergy problem, the last thing you want to do is replace the filtered inside air with outside air every 15 minutes.
    - SamBam 3y ago
      I think the implication is 4 full filtrations per hour, not 4 air changes. Air purifiers still sometimes call this "air changes" or sometimes "equivalent air changes" (e-AC/hr).

boringuser2 3y ago

It seems that whenever you have expertise in a given area it becomes apparent that Wirecutter gives laughable recommendations. Their mattress recommendations, from someone whom has spent large amounts of time trying to piece together what little exists of mattress "science", straddle the border between comical and negligent. Consumer Reports is similar.

klausa 3y ago
Do you have results on your research written up somewhere?
SamBam 3y ago
I dunno, I went with their mattress recommendation (at least the one of three years ago, don't know what it is now) and lived it, it's the first mattress I've really liked since becoming an adult.
- boringuser2 3y ago
  Mattresses are highly subjective, especially because a decent chunk of the population doesn't have particular requirements for one (i.e. no back or neck problems and general health make it easy to sleep on a rock). However, there is a discrete consistency to picking a durable mattress that has advantageous qualities such as support and whatnot, and none of those mattresses are made of quality, durable materials that will provide lasting benefits for sensitive people.

DannyBee 3y ago

Filters also have loading specs which seems everyone ignored. The guarantee is not that they remove x% of particles at y size, instantly, but that they settle at that efficiency after z level of loading That also likely accounts for differences in some results - nobody seems to have taken this into accounts (There are filter rating systems where z=0, for example n95 filters. That is rare in HVAC and general air purification though)

practice9 3y ago

Aren't most websites like Wirecutter in the business of paid reviews / affiliate marketing?

tptacek 3y ago

Fun sequence of posts from the same author: https://dynomight.net/thanks-3/ https://dynomight.net/thanks-3/

stavros 3y ago

I got the IKEA air quality sensor, and it's always around 5-6 μg/m3, but my bane is cat hair. We have two cats and there's always hair in the air. Is there a filter that will remove those out of the air, and stop me breathing them all the time?

jccooper 3y ago
Almost any filter will handle cat hair. You probably want to find something with a washable pre-filter (usually a stretch fabric) so you don't waste the expensive actual filter. If that's your only concern, a t-shirt over a box fan will probably do the job.
- stavros 3y ago
  I tried to make a makeshift filter, but it failed. I guess the box fan wasn't boxy enough. I'll try again, thank you!

rapind 3y ago

If you don’t care about looks, grab yourself four 20x20x2” furnace filters of your preferred rating (merv 13), a 20” box fan for $20 and some duct tape. Assemble into a cube with the fan on top and filters on the sides. Add a cardboard cutout to the bottom if you want. Make sure you orient the fan and filters so that airflow comes into the filters (sucked) and out through the fan. Replace filters every year or less if you use it constantly.

quickthrower2 3y ago

I didn't know this much about filters before. Let's look at 2 situations. One is you are running the same air through the filter all day. The other is you are using a vacuum cleaner that is sucking up dust from the floor and pumping out that air. I assume in the vacuum cleaner case, you are better off with a higher performing filter since you need to trap that dust on first pass through, whereas with the filter that is circulating the air all day, you get a "second chance" to capture a given particle?

froglets 3y ago

I’m surprised that air purifiers without UV lamps seem to be the standard. If you’re going to buy something to clean the air, why not have the option to also kill bacteria/viruses/mold spores if any? Especially in houses like mine with kids spewing all kinds of contagion everywhere.

Toutouxc 3y ago
The article mentions that. First, you’d have to slow down the passage of the particles through the purifier enough so that the UV light could kill everything, which is inconvenient. Second, the filter is supposed to trap the particles and remove them from the environment anyway.

0x53 3y ago

My wire cutter disagreement is their flashlight recommendation. They recommend a AA battery flashlight from Amazon that in my opinion is terrible (https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-flashlight/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-flashlight/). This article indicates that maybe the referral money is a factor. I wonder how much influence that has.

BarbaryCoast 3y ago

Most of this guy's questions could have been answered by reading the very Wikipedia article he cites. For example, "a HEPA air filter must remove—from the air that passes through—at least 99.95% (ISO, European Standard) or 99.97% (ASME, U.S. DOE) of particles whose diameter is equal to 0.3 μm". So, yes the H13 filter meets this spec (99.95%), and the E12 does not. If he didn't trust the Wikipedia authors, he could always follow their references to check for himself. The question of whether H13 vs E12 actually matters is likely to depend on application and environment. Providing factual information, perhaps taking the position that the IKEA filter is "good enough" despite the review, would have been welcome. Then each reader can evaluate all those factors for themselves. Whenever I checked his quotes from The Wirecutter, I found that WC had it right, and blogger had it wrong. I stopped reading in detail after the first two sections, then just skimmed the rest.

IndySun 3y ago

Ta dah... I've finally been reading Hackernews long enough to notice bigger stories repeat. Where's Dang when he/she/they is/are needed? Previously... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38931559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38931559

heeen2 3y ago

I don't really care about airborne germs, spores or exhaust particulates, but our basement collects a TON of dust that looks like dryer lint and requires a daily sweep with a vacuum cleaner. I wonder if the ikea and similar air purifiers are overkill for that and if there's a solution that is more effective for this kind of dust but with less noise/less power.

callalex 3y ago
A box fan with the cheapest furnace filter you can find at the hardware store. Just one on its lowest setting will handle large particulates in a basement. If that’s inadequate, since you mentioned noise as a concern, two box fans with filters on low is better than one box fan with a filter on medium, and filters even more air. Edit: if you really are cleaning DAILY then there is something else wrong that really should be addressed. Either a clogged dryer vent, a horribly leaky HVAC system, or a completely failed building seal somewhere. The filters will certainly solve your problem but even with the cheap stuff you will be going through a lot of filters if you don’t solve the underlying issue.
Doxin 3y ago
You might want to check the relative humidity in your basement. Mold can create a rather silly quantity of spores if left unchecked.

jononomo 3y ago

I've often wondered about whether massive outdoor air filters (the size of multi story buildings) could be used to improved the quality of outdoor air. I don't want to breathe particulates when I'm outside my home, either.

steveBK123 3y ago

Anyone in the market for air purifiers should also check out the Coway line, very good products, been using them ~7 years in various form factors.

Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago

In regards to true HEPA https://web.archive.org/web/20210225051425/http://www.air-purifier-power.com/hepatypefilter.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210225051425/http://www.air-pu...

iNic 3y ago

I just want to say that dynomight also has a great article on air purification in general: https://dynomight.net/air/ https://dynomight.net/air/.

jononomo 3y ago

An excellent and informative article.

free_bip 3y ago

What's funny is this article is a much better advertisement for IKEA air filters than IKEA themselves do...

bacheaul 3y ago
Yep, we actually bought a bunch for our house after reading this article. Bang for buck for the device, filters, and power usage is difficult to beat.

Paul-Craft 3y ago

Needs (2022).

grobbyy 3y ago

My experience is Wirecutter recommended process products most of the time, and isn't very clueful in how it evaluates them. It's that's Sharper Image vibe. Best air filter would use standard home furnace filters. Those are cheap and good enough. Most of the money should be on the fan. High efficieny, high load, low noise fans are expensive.

hyperbovine 3y ago
The Wirecutter model is to take what Consumer Reports reports used to do and eliminate all the hard parts like actually learning the science behind the product, performing serious long-term evaluations, and building funky stress testing machines. (And the big one, not accepting advertiser dollars.) What's left? Some underqualified millenials doing a bunch of Googling, buying some products off Amazon, chatting about them on a Slack thread, and then summarizing all the anecdata using no fewer than 10000 referral-generating words. Suffice it to say I find their recommendations basically useless. And in several cases aggressively wrong, like they recommend a product I know from personal experience to be among the worst in its category.
- TylerE 3y ago
  You've got people like Project Farm over on YT. He does really good, rigourous stuff. He did a test on wiper blades where tested them new, then left them on the roof of his house in the sun for a full year, and then did all the tests again. He also rarely states firm conclusions, just presents objective data. The only real exception is when one, or a few products standout as either exceptionally good (especially when they're NOT the most expensive) or they do so poorly as to be totally unfit for purpose or even unsafe. The products he reviews tend to be sort of workshop oriented (tools - from basic open end wrenches up to fairly capable welders and chainsaws, lubricants, that kind of thing), but he's also done a fair bit of automotive stuff, jeans, gloves, and things like that.' For the jeans, he tested stuff like puncture force (with a nail), abrasion resistance, belt loop strength, and breathability. He also commented on but did not score fit and comfort.
  - 3y ago

js2 3y ago

Previous discussion (1474 points by Ariarule on June 20, 2022 | 708 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812259

genman 3y ago

Go with the one that has lower actual operating noise levels.

karaterobot 3y ago
Some people (well, me at least) like the air purifier to make some white noise. Mine doesn't turn on automatically if, for example, the power cuts out and then comes on again, and I always notice it within a few minutes because the house feels weird without any background noise.
- staplers 3y ago
  White noise is proven to degrade sleep and focus unless masking more distracting noise
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
    I always love it with someone proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid because Science declared it so. This isn’t even how academics talk about things like this.
    - staplers 3y ago
      proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid I did no such thing.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      > I always love it with someone proclaims that my benefit / enjoyment of something is invalid because Science declared it so. Also, this is not proven. I suspect the parent is thinking about https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/18/white-noise-as-sleep-aid-may-do-more-harm-than-good-say-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/18/white-n..., which cites https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079220301283 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870..., which found 1 study out of 38 which "suggested the noise may lead to more disrupted sleep" and concludes that more research is needed. Of course, individuals may find white noise personally irritating or distracting, and continuous loud noise of any sort is bad. But for others, noise can also help with relaxation, concentration, and sound masking. (I personally find white noise irritating, but I like brown noise.)

kwertyoowiyop 3y ago

Seems like the author knows their stuff, but I’d trust it even more without the snarky tone.

santoshalper 3y ago
I wouldn't be an annoyed as he is if I had personally designed the IKEA air purifier.