4 ms·

So, if you've ever worked in these contractor roles for a large tech company you will soon realize (like the NRLB does and the courts have) that it is all smoke

So, if you've ever worked in these contractor roles for a large tech company you will soon realize (like the NRLB does and the courts have) that it is all smoke and mirrors. You are effectively an employee of said tech company. The union will win this one and hopefully it goes to court b/c this whole contractor scam needs to be abolished.

scottyah 3y ago
Are the suppliers of windshield wipers effectively employees of car companies?
- oblio 3y ago
  Yes, if they only make windshield wipers for 1 car company. In many places in the world you're only an independent contractor if you don't work long term for 1 single client and only if they don't dictate all your working conditions. Because that would be the description of an employee and the condition is called "hidden employment" and it's illegal in many jurisdictions.
  - scottyah 3y ago
    Being an independent contractor even if you only have one client can have many benefits, I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal. It's a great way to better allocate how your pay gets spent (benefits, perks, parties, etc) if you disagree with how the company does it, and it also grants you many other freedoms like retaining IP rights, paystructures (hourly vs salary), etc unlike normal employees. At the cost of complexity, you get freedom.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal Is it really news to you? There's also another reason - companies trying to duck various taxes tied to employment. > At the cost of complexity There are many more costs than that, including loss of a lot of negotiating leverage, job security, and opportunity for advancement.
      - chii 3y ago
        > companies trying to duck various taxes tied to employment. surely the contracting company gets to pay that tax, rather than the client.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        Often a contractor isn't a company but an individual with few resources, including money, time and knowledge for processing and paying taxes.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Dealing with such things is exactly why a contractor is supposed to charge more per hour. I expect a basic rule like "Hire an accountant if you don't want to figure out all this stuff." to be contracting 101.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        What if you don't care about job security? There's many good reasons for being a contractor. I used to be a contractor for the US government, and worked alongside civilian government employees. They tried to even hire me away from my employer (the contractor), and I refused: there just wasn't a good reason. The problem with being a government employee is that the pay is terrible, and also the retirement system is only good if you're a life-long government employee (there's no 401k). If you just want to stay in that job for the rest of your career, it's a great deal, though the pay isn't great, because the job security is fantastic and the retirement benefits are solid if you put in all those years (basically you get a good portion of your last salary until you die). But the cost is that your current pay is lousy: as a software dev, I made much more money than my coworkers, plus I got to save some in an employer-matched 401k account. The government can't find that many people who want the safe, low-pay employment option they offer, particularly for software/IT jobs, so they turn to contractors to provide those people and offer them a type of employment (high-pay, not-so-safe) that the government simply can't do on its own. It's the same with many big companies: hiring and firing is difficult and expensive for them, so they turn to 3rd-party contracting firms. It costs them: each contractor costs quite a bit more than a regular employee, but they don't have to deal with the other problems that come with regular employees. There's drawbacks, however; contractors aren't in it for the long term, so if you find a contractor you really like, you try to get them to join the company directly.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago
      these people all work for a company whose sole job is to exist as an off the books shell company that is allowed to give inferior benefits. They have none of those freedoms.
    - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
      It's certainly not illegal. But it can be identified by government agencies as an employer/employee relationship. The IRS is very likely to treat you as an employee and tax you, and your "employer" as such, for example.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > better allocate how your pay gets spent (benefits, perks, parties, etc) if you disagree with how the company does it, and it also grants you many other freedoms like retaining IP rights, paystructures (hourly vs salary), etc unlike normal employees. You can do all those things as a normal employee (perhaps a company lied to you that they couldn't?). Companies offer contractors higher pay and/or better benefits because they want to shirk their legal obligations to employees, there's nothing that would actually prevent them from offering those better terms to employees.
      - scottyah 3y ago
        At large companies that I've worked for, HR policies on hiring are quite strict and don't give managers much wiggle room to bargain without creating quite a hassle that's usually not worth the effort. If I were extremely valuable, perhaps a case and exception could be made but most at the company do not want to go that route. Hiring as a contractor creates a much more decoupled interface, and they don't have to refactor all their HR policies for one exception.
    - oblio 3y ago
      > Being an independent contractor even if you only have one client can have many benefits, I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal. In places where it's implemented it's not JUST about having 1 customer. It's having 1 customer: - for a long time (years and years) - having basically the same restrictions as regular employees (same working hours, can't set your own; same work location, their office, can't set your own; usually the exact same IP restrictions as employees, etc) At that point, you're basically an employee without any legal protections. In places where employees actually have legal protections.
Manuel_D 3y ago
Misusing contractors to perform the same work as full time employees is a separate allegation. If I recall, Microsoft got in trouble with that. But my understanding is that contractors at Google are pretty clearly separate from the employee base. For instance the contract workforce involved in scanning Google books where housed in separate offices had different badges and more. Regardless, I'm still not seeing the rationale for why employees of a contracting corporation are supposed to be negotiating directly with customers. My sister worked at Accenture. If she wanted a raised why would she try and negotiate with who her customer she was working with at the time, given that her bosses at Accenture are the ones that set her salary?
- sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
  No, that’s wrong, TVC do the same work on the same teams as “real” employees.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    I'd be interested in details on how Google is using TVCs for the same functions as full time employees.
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here, even if someone was like "yeah sure let me pick a public fight with the trillion dollar company". Vouch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        Some of us have a higher epistemic threshold than, "people on HN say it happens".
        refulgentis 3y ago
        This is the 5th or 6th time you've written a reply like this to me, after I pointed out I worked at Google
JoshTriplett 3y ago
I am currently a contractor for a large tech company. I am emphatically not an employee. I don't want to be an employee. I don't have to do corporate training. I don't have to use a corporate laptop with corporate spyware; I use my own laptop. I work on side projects that are none of the company's business. I don't get told how I should work; I get evaluated based on results. Numerous employee policies simply don't apply to me. I work, and I submit invoices, and I get paid for the hours I work. This may well not be the policy at every company. There are certainly cases where companies use contractors where they should be using employees, and for that matter vice versa. There are cases where companies treat their contractors badly, and for that matter treat their employees badly. There are also cases where contractors are a better choice (e.g. variable/uncertain needs over time, employees of third-party companies that don't want to be employees of the company in question, contractors who prefer being contractors). Some people prefer to work as contractors. Some people prefer to work as employees. I very much wish that everyone has the option to work in the model they prefer.
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Ah yes, the no true contractor fallacy.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    What. You are the one arguing there is no such thing as a true contractor, one that is not "effectively an employee". The scottsman has just walked up and introduced himself to you.

scottyah 3y ago

Are the suppliers of windshield wipers effectively employees of car companies?

oblio 3y ago
Yes, if they only make windshield wipers for 1 car company. In many places in the world you're only an independent contractor if you don't work long term for 1 single client and only if they don't dictate all your working conditions. Because that would be the description of an employee and the condition is called "hidden employment" and it's illegal in many jurisdictions.
- scottyah 3y ago
  Being an independent contractor even if you only have one client can have many benefits, I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal. It's a great way to better allocate how your pay gets spent (benefits, perks, parties, etc) if you disagree with how the company does it, and it also grants you many other freedoms like retaining IP rights, paystructures (hourly vs salary), etc unlike normal employees. At the cost of complexity, you get freedom.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal Is it really news to you? There's also another reason - companies trying to duck various taxes tied to employment. > At the cost of complexity There are many more costs than that, including loss of a lot of negotiating leverage, job security, and opportunity for advancement.
    - chii 3y ago
      > companies trying to duck various taxes tied to employment. surely the contracting company gets to pay that tax, rather than the client.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        Often a contractor isn't a company but an individual with few resources, including money, time and knowledge for processing and paying taxes.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Dealing with such things is exactly why a contractor is supposed to charge more per hour. I expect a basic rule like "Hire an accountant if you don't want to figure out all this stuff." to be contracting 101.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      What if you don't care about job security? There's many good reasons for being a contractor. I used to be a contractor for the US government, and worked alongside civilian government employees. They tried to even hire me away from my employer (the contractor), and I refused: there just wasn't a good reason. The problem with being a government employee is that the pay is terrible, and also the retirement system is only good if you're a life-long government employee (there's no 401k). If you just want to stay in that job for the rest of your career, it's a great deal, though the pay isn't great, because the job security is fantastic and the retirement benefits are solid if you put in all those years (basically you get a good portion of your last salary until you die). But the cost is that your current pay is lousy: as a software dev, I made much more money than my coworkers, plus I got to save some in an employer-matched 401k account. The government can't find that many people who want the safe, low-pay employment option they offer, particularly for software/IT jobs, so they turn to contractors to provide those people and offer them a type of employment (high-pay, not-so-safe) that the government simply can't do on its own. It's the same with many big companies: hiring and firing is difficult and expensive for them, so they turn to 3rd-party contracting firms. It costs them: each contractor costs quite a bit more than a regular employee, but they don't have to deal with the other problems that come with regular employees. There's drawbacks, however; contractors aren't in it for the long term, so if you find a contractor you really like, you try to get them to join the company directly.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    these people all work for a company whose sole job is to exist as an off the books shell company that is allowed to give inferior benefits. They have none of those freedoms.
  - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
    It's certainly not illegal. But it can be identified by government agencies as an employer/employee relationship. The IRS is very likely to treat you as an employee and tax you, and your "employer" as such, for example.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > better allocate how your pay gets spent (benefits, perks, parties, etc) if you disagree with how the company does it, and it also grants you many other freedoms like retaining IP rights, paystructures (hourly vs salary), etc unlike normal employees. You can do all those things as a normal employee (perhaps a company lied to you that they couldn't?). Companies offer contractors higher pay and/or better benefits because they want to shirk their legal obligations to employees, there's nothing that would actually prevent them from offering those better terms to employees.
    - scottyah 3y ago
      At large companies that I've worked for, HR policies on hiring are quite strict and don't give managers much wiggle room to bargain without creating quite a hassle that's usually not worth the effort. If I were extremely valuable, perhaps a case and exception could be made but most at the company do not want to go that route. Hiring as a contractor creates a much more decoupled interface, and they don't have to refactor all their HR policies for one exception.
  - oblio 3y ago
    > Being an independent contractor even if you only have one client can have many benefits, I am astounded to hear that it can be illegal. In places where it's implemented it's not JUST about having 1 customer. It's having 1 customer: - for a long time (years and years) - having basically the same restrictions as regular employees (same working hours, can't set your own; same work location, their office, can't set your own; usually the exact same IP restrictions as employees, etc) At that point, you're basically an employee without any legal protections. In places where employees actually have legal protections.

Manuel_D 3y ago

Misusing contractors to perform the same work as full time employees is a separate allegation. If I recall, Microsoft got in trouble with that. But my understanding is that contractors at Google are pretty clearly separate from the employee base. For instance the contract workforce involved in scanning Google books where housed in separate offices had different badges and more. Regardless, I'm still not seeing the rationale for why employees of a contracting corporation are supposed to be negotiating directly with customers. My sister worked at Accenture. If she wanted a raised why would she try and negotiate with who her customer she was working with at the time, given that her bosses at Accenture are the ones that set her salary?

sjwhevvvvvsj 3y ago
No, that’s wrong, TVC do the same work on the same teams as “real” employees.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  I'd be interested in details on how Google is using TVCs for the same functions as full time employees.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here, even if someone was like "yeah sure let me pick a public fight with the trillion dollar company". Vouch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38874378
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Some of us have a higher epistemic threshold than, "people on HN say it happens".
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        This is the 5th or 6th time you've written a reply like this to me, after I pointed out I worked at Google

JoshTriplett 3y ago

I am currently a contractor for a large tech company. I am emphatically not an employee. I don't want to be an employee. I don't have to do corporate training. I don't have to use a corporate laptop with corporate spyware; I use my own laptop. I work on side projects that are none of the company's business. I don't get told how I should work; I get evaluated based on results. Numerous employee policies simply don't apply to me. I work, and I submit invoices, and I get paid for the hours I work. This may well not be the policy at every company. There are certainly cases where companies use contractors where they should be using employees, and for that matter vice versa. There are cases where companies treat their contractors badly, and for that matter treat their employees badly. There are also cases where contractors are a better choice (e.g. variable/uncertain needs over time, employees of third-party companies that don't want to be employees of the company in question, contractors who prefer being contractors). Some people prefer to work as contractors. Some people prefer to work as employees. I very much wish that everyone has the option to work in the model they prefer.

theGnuMe 3y ago
Ah yes, the no true contractor fallacy.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  What. You are the one arguing there is no such thing as a true contractor, one that is not "effectively an employee". The scottsman has just walked up and introduced himself to you.