15 ms·

Can Microsoft Flight Simulator help me learn to fly or make me a better pilot?

410 points by ent101 3y ago

neilv 3y ago
https://wiki.flightgear.org/FlightGear_Flight_Academy https://wiki.flightgear.org/FlightGear_Flight_Academy
- rzzzt 3y ago
  In FlightGear the checklist asks you to walk around the plane and check the tire pressure.
esperent 3y ago
I've never played MS Flight Simulator, or flown a plane. However, I am learning guitar and I've discovered there's a whole range of games that are designed to teach you to play guitar. I'm currently working my way through one called Yousician which also does ukulele, bass guitar, and I think singing and piano too. Rockstar is another one, but I couldn't get it to work well with a classical guitar while Yousician seems to be amazingly good at hearing the notes I play. It's not a complete guitar teaching tool - it doesn't replace simply practicing songs by myself without looking at a screen, which is probably the most important type of practice for any instrument. It also doesn't teach that much music theory, although it does cover the basic better than I expected. But it does one thing amazingly well. It motivates me to practice, especially at the beginner level where I'm not making any particularly nice music, and it's teaching me a lot of the basic coordination and muscle memory while doing so. It also provides carefully curated challenge levels, which I can pick from depending on my current learning level and, just as important, how I'm feeling at that moment. I think flight sims would be similar. They can't replace the genuine experience of flying a plane, of course. But we human learn well in a multi-modal manner. We can memorize a route by flying over a virtual map. We can memorize steps to land a plane, or to take off, in a game, even if they are not complete, and then apply what we've learned to learn the real thing quickly in an actual plane. My experience over the last few weeks with Yousician has made me far more interested in the idea of gamified learning. Besides music, flight sims, orbital mechanics (Kerbal Space Program), and a few small code games like Flexbox Froggy, are there any other good gamified learning games?
bluechair 3y ago
While we’re on the subject of simulators, I cannot recommend “10 Steps to Complex Learning” enough.
ipsum2 3y ago
Someone successfully hijacked, flew, and did a barrel roll on a plane just from learning from video games, though it's not clear if it was Microsoft Flight Simulator: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/video-games-pilots-wonder-how-plane-thief-learned-to-do-aerial-acrobatics/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/video-games-pilots... Though there's some skepticism here: > Some of Mr. Russell’s actions, such as knowing to be at a certain elevation to perform certain aerial moves, suggested he may have learned them from a flight simulator, Mr. Todd said. > “It’s highly improbable, but not impossible, that he never had a lick of flying except other than in a virtual world,” he said. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/12/us/richard-russell-q400-flight-simulator.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/12/us/richard-russell-q400-f...
- n2d4 3y ago
  Similarly, the Barefoot Bandit, who stole several airplanes (his first at the age of 18): > It is believed that he learned how to fly small planes by reading aircraft manuals, handbooks, watching a "How to fly a small airplane" DVD, and playing flight simulator computer games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore
  - samstave 3y ago
    People like this are like those extremely hyper-active dogs that should never bee cooped-up in an apartment -- we need to throw people like that onto a creativity farm and call it an incubator.
    - jjeaff 3y ago
      That's basically what all the crypto incubators consist of.
- morkalork 3y ago
  That's absolutely wild and tragic. If not from video games, then from where? I can't see the 2nd article but the first mentions that he had no formal training! Did he mean to crash at the end? Was it some elaborate "going out with a bang"? I have so many questions after reading that, the story is like every idle and intrusive thought come to life at once.
null0ranje 3y ago
Flight sims are great for exploring unfamiliar airports, practicing IFR procedures, cockpit orientation (to a point), and other routine tasks. They are terrible for learning to fly, and in fact are detrimental to the task, since it teaches new students bad habits, like keeping their heads down and focusing on instruments. I fire up the sim occasionally, but I don't pretend it's a digital analog. Instead, I treat it like it's a different aircraft entirely, including simulating preflight checks and running checklists.
- frenchy 3y ago
  > since it teaches new students bad habits, like keeping their heads down and focusing on instruments. I'm very much not an expert on this, but I thought that most of the time, at least for recreational flying, the opposite was the problem: things like running out of fuel or doing that thing where you slowly loose altitude over the ocean without realising and then crash into the water because you're not paying attention to the instruments. My experience with flight sims is that they weren't useful, but a big part of it was that I had no skin in the game. I could always walk away from a mistake, so I got sloppy.
  - null0ranje 3y ago
    Most recreational flying is under visual flight rules (VFR). Your primary reference is to everything outside of you. You will check your instruments, but 95% of the time, you'll be looking outside. At least in the US, you usually aren't under ATC direction. Thus, it's your responsibility to see and avoid. Flying over the ocean for any length of time is not a common thing recreational pilots do, and when they do, they should be a lot more prepared or flying IFR.
    - lsh123 3y ago
      I fly ifr nearly all the time with exception of local flights like a test flight after picking up the plane from annual (even then I am talking to tower or approach just in case). The main reason for me is that I like having someone (atc) watching over me, and that I don’t need to think much about airspace’s, tfrs, etc - I just do what atc tells me to do (within reasons ;) ).
rpmisms 3y ago
Sims can always help build technical knowledge, but usually lack the practical aspect. Sure, you know the ingredients for a takeoff, but can you execute in a real cockpit? Again, great for learning the ingredients.
- 15457345234 3y ago
  Spot on, sims build all the technical knowledge but the physical feedback isn't there; it's the somatogravitic illusion that normally sends you into the ground if you aren't prepared to recognise and disregard it.
DarkmSparks 3y ago
XP12 is better, not least because it can be certified for logging "real world" flight hours. Looks pretty to: https://youtu.be/_GzhwJMFDHk?si=IzK8VttO9P58myk- https://youtu.be/_GzhwJMFDHk?si=IzK8VttO9P58myk- flight sims in general have come a long way in the last 20 years, VR and XR have completely changed the dynamic, there are even EASA approved VR helicopter sims now (that are actually used for certified training)
radar1310 3y ago
It can teach you bad habits more than anything. But at the same time it can teach you proper procedures if you use something like Pilotedge to learn proper ATC procedures.
AYBABTME 3y ago
Just flying a plane isn't that hard, and just landing it not that harder. Doing it well per specs is hard and requires butt in the seat time. You just can't feel everything in the sim, like the gust of winds as you approach the runway, or the sudden acceleration in falling as you lose too much airspeed when trying to land, or the balloon near the runway. It'll all be simulated and you can see it with your eyes, but that's a long shot from being able to do it all in real life when all your senses are involved. I'm sure given enough sim practice you can get most of the way there but probably with exponentially more repetition.
stanski 3y ago
It helped me know more about the basics of flight, so I found it helpful. That and reading flight training books. Did it reduce the amount of actual flight hours I needed to get my license? Probably not. I think it's more help when studying for your IFR.
EMM_386 3y ago
Yes. I say that with 100% certainty based on my own experience. I was using Flight Simulator in the late 80s. I used it for 10 years, and it inspired me to become a pilot. I ended getting various ratings (private, instrument, high-performance, commecial ...). I knew how to fly an ILS before I had my introductory flight in a Cessna 172. I knew what I was looking at and not bewildered by all of the unfamiliar gauges. It's not going to help you land a small plane when the winds are 160/17G25 and it's a crosswind. That you have to experience. But I could fly to the nearest VOR on the first day.
MenhirMike 3y ago
To quote the best Indiana Jones movie: Flying, yes. Landing, no!
- dudul 3y ago
  I dont remember this quote from Raiders...
badcarbine 3y ago
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yurisagalov 3y ago
Yes for instrument flying, but I would avoid it for your private pilot's license (PPL - first license). Your PPL is mostly about "feeling" the airplane and looking outside the window, not inside the plane at your instrument cluster. You'll pick up more bad habits than good from flying in a sim for your PPL. It's not that these bad habits can't be fixed, but it'll likely actually _add_ time to fix them. After you have your private license, by all means, use a sim to help you get familiar with an unfamiliar route/airport/etc. I'll often even watch YouTube videos of landings at airports I'm not familiar with. For your instrument rating a good sim can actually be quite helpful. You're exclusively looking inside the plane, setting up radios, approaches, VORs, GPS, etc. Having an intimate familiarity with how your various automations work can help.
- DennisP 3y ago
  I'm no expert myself but recently I did see a flight instructor on youtube with the opposite opinion, saying that people with a lot of flight sim experience were his best beginner students, and tended to get their PPL in the fewest hours.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Some anecdata here. I got to fly in a combat sim for few hours and the operators were surprised at some of the things I knew how to do just from playing videogames in the past. I do agree with the grandparent that it won't help with feel, but I also think that it will help build a knowledge base that can be a useful starting point.
    - japanman185 3y ago
      You: Reword the post below so I won’t get banned from hackewnews again, but still do it in the format of a stereotypical hacker news comment. I wish people would stop using the word anecdata like it is correct just because they saw some arrogant self important reply using it in their hackernews comment. Firstly it is anecdote so the plural would be anecdotes or if you want to continue with being weird, it’s anecdota. Do the red squiggly lines not direct you at all to thinking “maybe this is wrong”. Secondly invariably when someone (wrongly) uses the word “anecdata” they only ever produce a paragraph relating to one specific point of view - their own. ChatGPT: It's intriguing to observe the evolution of language in tech communities, particularly on Hacker News. For instance, the term 'anecdata' seems to be gaining traction, though its usage diverges from conventional language norms. Traditionally, 'anecdote' is the singular form, with 'anecdotes' or perhaps 'anecdota' as a more esoteric plural. It's always beneficial to pay heed to the cues from our writing tools, like the spellchecker's red squiggly lines, as they often guide us toward standard language practices. Furthermore, it's worth noting that discussions enriched by diverse perspectives are more insightful. While 'anecdata' typically encapsulates a singular viewpoint, embracing a variety of experiences could enhance the richness of our conversations here.
deleted 3y ago
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wkat4242 3y ago
Yes but it is more likely to make you a terrible one without the right guidance by a real pilot. It teaches all kinds of bad habits. My instructor aldus told me off for chasing the instruments in VFR for example. It can help, especially in VR but only as an addition to real flight training. That's my opinion anyway.
david422 3y ago
I got my PPL. I didn't spend much time in MSFS, but I will say I had a much harder time practicing landing in the sim than in real life. Being able to look out the window, glance around, actually judge distance, etc. for staying in the pattern was much easier in a real plane.
- ericpauley 3y ago
  PPL/IFR here. I had a really hard time using MSFS for the first time, mostly because the trim felt so wrong! In primary training we’re continually taught to pitch and then use trim to remove tension, but with consumer sim gear this isn’t possible. Maddening!
mmaunder 3y ago
Yes. I passed my instrument rating earlier this year by using MSFS and X-plane integrated with PilotEdge and working my way through several I ratings on PE. Lots of additional studying by reading the entire Jepp IR book and using Sheppard for review before the written. Also a ton of flying under foggles practicing everything in the standards and making it second nature. Checkride was gnarly in Kansas noon convection turbulence but passed. Sims with PilotEdge help big time on learning to copy clearance, departure, en route and shooting the many approaches available. Also helps to stay current and to review a challenging approach before doing it for real. And it can somewhat help with G1000 avionics programming but it’s not exactly the same - more of a general guideline. I’d avoid Vatsim. Sorry fans. I just don’t find it’s up to the same standard in realism and professionalism. Also lots of controllers who don’t know their stuff. Also avoid getting sucked into the gamer aspect of flight sim. You have to actually be training in real aircraft and studying and supplement with sim. Active pause is great for avionics programming, VOR nav and more. You can do it all with a joystick. Pedals and yoke are pointless because sims can’t simulate things like turbulence or crosswind landings. An RTX 3xxx GPU is plenty. I used a laptop RTX 4090 and desktop 3 series gpu. Lastly if you actually do an instrument rating, learn how to calm yourself with a slow breath in and a slow breath out and never quit during the checkride, no matter how hard it seems. You are PIC and the DPE is pushing your limits, so assume you’re alone, breath deep and work the problem. Real life single pilot IMC is intense so this is the way.
- chs20 3y ago
  Simulating cross-wind landings doesn't sound that hard, why do you think current sims don't do it well?
  - mmaunder 3y ago
    Because I practice them a lot and the dynamics of a real x-wind landing is not reproducible in a home sim. You can practice where to put the controls. But in a trainer like a 172 or DA20 you can’t practice the forces you feel pushing back at you and the other seat-of-pants aspects. One of the drills I do is to descend to 50ft over the runway and then hold the plane on centerline in a eg 20kt crosswind. The sim just can’t even come close to how dynamic and effective that exercise is. Also the feeling of putting down one wheel first, feeling the bump, then the other. The slight skid and side g forces of you mess it up slightly. Those kinds of things. There are many things that sims can’t reproduce that don’t matter that much when it comes to productive learning. But with cross wind landings, these things matter a lot. I’m specifically referring to home simulators and MSFS and X-plane specifically. I have no experience in full motion commercial jet or military sims.
daly 3y ago
I have about 2000 hours of flight simulator time starting from when it first came out. I really miss Meigs field. I signed up for private pilot lessons. The first day with the instructor I did a walk around inspection, started the plane, talked to the tower, did a taxi and takeoff. The instructor let me fly for a while then put me "under the hood" so I couldn't see, said "It's my airplane", took control and flipped it all around, and then said "Your plane". The flight controls were all I could see. I could see that I was in a dive with rotation so I cut the throttle, centered the stick and kicked opposite rudder until the rotation stopped then regained level flight. The flight instructor said that was "pretty good but could be better". I asked him if this was a first-day test for a private pilot's license. He was shocked. He thought I was going for an instrument rating. I pointed out that this was my first time ever in a small plane and first time ever as an actual pilot. The lessons got easier after that :-) So, yeah, if you spend a year's worth of time in the sim it will help a lot.
- rubyron 3y ago
  As I was reading this, I was mentally preparing my reply to call BS on your story, as no instructor would do this on your first lesson. Glad to see the twist at the end - great story!
  - pc86 3y ago
    Almost as unbelievable as a CFII confusing someone who had never stepped foot in a small plane before with someone going for an instrument rating?
    - jcrites 3y ago
      Yeah, it’s a cool story but not really believable. * A student in an instrument flight is doing 99.9% of the work. The instructor is really there as a guide. The instructor will expect a student to do almost everything, from taxiing the plane, to taking off, to the radios. There’s no way that the instructor will pilot the plane into the air for the student. Even PPL students on their very first lesson can taxi the airplane and be guided through takeoff. Why would an instrument student sit passively by? * Any instructor worth their salt would review the student’s logbook, and his would’ve been empty or he wouldn’t even have one. I can’t see this happening even as the result of some kind of massive mixup. * An instructor meeting a new student for the first time, for instrument flight, and instructor doesn’t even ask how many flight hours the student has? What training or experience they have? I’ve trained with a number of instructors, and none has taken me in an airplane without asking these kind of basic questions. Flying in a simulator also doesn’t generally prepare you for the preflight (walk-around). Anyone going for their instrument rating would know how to do this solo — and the instructor would expect the student to do it most likely (maybe not for instrument lessons?) — whereas someone who hasn’t stepped foot in a plane wouldn’t know how to do it at all. Are you really going to know how to check fuel levels and oil levels from the simulator? I doubt it. (There are some highly realistic simulator mods that get close though, and can simulate the preflight too.) * The original story does not use accurate terminology. (A CFII that I asked about this story wrote: “When you give the controls to a student you don’t let them aimlessly wonder under the hood you give a radial to follow or some nav aid - no one aimlessly wanders for instrument training. Dude doesn’t know basic terminology either: Anyone worth two cents would say pull the throttle, rolled out of the bank stepped on the rudder to remove the yaw.”) I’ve taken flight lessons but don’t have a PPL. I also have a lot of simulator time in DCS/MSX/XPlane.
flippy_flops 3y ago
I’ve wondered the same about flying drones. I ruined a drone once so then I spent a lot of time trying to learn on the DRS app but it feels almost impossible. Is that a realistic simulator?
- aaron695 3y ago
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- Toutouxc 3y ago
  Not sure about your app, but simulators like Liftoff or Velocidrone are really great if you don't want start by crashing your expensive drone A LOT. Flying an FPV drone (in proper Acro mode) is objectively pretty difficult and requires a lot of coordination. In my case I found being a flight-simmer really helped with getting started with Liftoff — I could take off, make turns and generally fly where I wanted in under 30 minutes. My first IRL drone flight was after ~20 hours of Liftoff, I could go straight to Acro mode and fly around the garden without hitting anything. It felt close to what I knew from Liftoff, the main difference was the ugly analog camera feed in the goggles instead of glorious 4K at home. That made it a bit disorienting. Otherwise it's (IMO) the same thing for just flying around (not pro-level racing or breathtaking precision aerobatics).
lsh123 3y ago
The purpose of initial training is to teach the pilot how to fly a plane “by feel”. The best PC simulators still lack the details: How does wind sound change with airspeed and AOA? How does wing tell you it’s about to stall? How does the engine sound when you lean it? Etc. I learned to fly in a Citabria with basic VFR instruments (not even a six pack!), and my instructor closed instruments all the time teaching me not to rely on instruments while flying VFR. These lessons helped me a lot over years. I fly seaplanes in the summers that usually have basic vfr instruments only and it is a lot of fun. Simulators are fantastic for learning instrument flying. I try to practice on a simulator at least once or twice a week - just a quick flight with 2-3 approaches to minimums. But it helps to keeps the scan going and also practice various failures in a safe environment.
inoffensivename 3y ago
I'm an airline pilot and an instructor. If you spend thousands of hours in a flight simulator, you're probably the type of person who will try to absorb all the information you can about flying airplanes. This kind of person will probably do well when learning to fly the real thing. There will be a lot of bad habits to break, not the least of which is a fixation on the instruments. I do not recommend somebody go and spend time on a simulator to do their VFR training, it's a waste of time. You will learn far faster in the real plane and your time not flying is better spent studying the books. Just one (not so humble) pilot/instructor's opinion. EDIT: for IFR flying, the simulator is very useful, but I would recommend using it under the guidance of an instrument instructor. It's easy to pick up bad habits otherwise.
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  You mentioned some good and bad things acquired from flight sims. Overall would say you net negative or net positive?
  - japanman185 3y ago
    [dead]
- beefield 3y ago
  I have flown gliders when I was younger and occasionally thought about PPL. And I have thought sims as well. Given the glider backcround, am I going to learn bad things on a sim?
  - vdqtp3 3y ago
    Glider is widely recommended as an entry to powered flight. You'll be better prepared and will have better stick and rudder skills than most student pilots.
    - rolph 3y ago
      it also wont be such a shock the first time you lose engine thrust.
willhackett 3y ago
My former partner is a pilot and would train new routes on flight simulator. I thought it was amazing the level of detail could be that helpful.
langsoul-com 3y ago
I can yes, and we should advance simulations, both AR and VR to be even better. There's really tiers of simulation, from just reading or watching, playing a basic flight sim, playing a realistic one with joystick and rudder, VR or AR flight sim and then a physical cockpit. Say what about AR simulations for surgery? Or bring a mechanic. Practice, in a realistic, and most importantly, low cost environment is a marvel of today's world.
subhro 3y ago
One of the irritating things about simulators (barring FFS) is the amount of lag and lack of feel of air on the controls. MS Flight simulator will probably help you with non flying procedures and communication. Also, it is useful (partially in my books) when doing instrument training. Otherwise you are better served with a Cessna 1x2 (where x = 5, 7 or if really pushing it 8) and a competent CFI. Keep the rubber side down.
franky47 3y ago
The environmental benefit of practicing in a virtual environment rather than burning actual fuel is also a nice side-effect of having access to quality flight simulation software. I wonder what other industries could benefit from digitisation this way.
kjs3 3y ago
I know some pilots (actual licenses, a couple of whom are commercial pilots) who tell me (non-pilot, don't even pretend) they use MFS to get an idea of the approach to an airport they've never been to. I know some pilots who tell me they use MFS to practice multitasking they various things they need to do to land the plane. I know some pilots who tell me they use MFS to get familiar with the instrument layout on a plane they haven't flown. Every pilot I know says something to the effect 'at the end of the day, MFS is a game and not a hard one...you can't be a pilot without flying the plane and MFS doesn't teach that".
jcalvinowens 3y ago
Flying a real airplane is easier than flying a simulator, because you have so much more sensory input available. Because of this, you are likely to teach yourself bad habits in the simulator that will be expensive to unlearn in a real airplane. If you insist on doing it, read "Stick And Rudder" first: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780070362406 https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780070362406 As other comments have observed, the most motivated students tend to be the ones who go to the extra trouble to use simulators: it is possible the simulators are useless, and students who would otherwise be successful just tend to seek them out.
- glhaynes 3y ago
  What sort of bad habits?
  - jcalvinowens 3y ago
    Generally an over-reliance on the instruments. Not looking out the front window as the primary means of judging the aircraft's attitude, not navigating visually. Also, not using trim in a realistic way (looking at you, magical set-trim-to-level button...).
- docandrew 3y ago
  From my experience flying and instructing students, the extra sensory input from a real airplane makes it more difficult, not less, than flying a simulator. It’s easier to get task-saturated, random things such as sun glare on your instruments, a bug-spattered windshield, crummy radios, etc all contribute to a more challenging environment. Simulators can be a useful training aid and are a good tool for mission rehearsal but no replacement for the real thing.
  - wkipling 3y ago
    I think the difference is like you say in the real aircraft you can get a lot more task saturated. A sim feels like being a fly on the wall almost as if in 3rd person. But as far as manual handling goes, the real jet is much easier, runway textures and peripheral cues for landing are far more obvious in reality.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
I think the reality is that the type of people interested in flying will have spent a lot of time in simulators already by the time they start taking lessons and it really helps. You'll already know what each instrument is, how to read it, in what order to do things, running check-lists, how to start the plane, taxi, navigate, etc. You'll probably be a bit clumsy at the controls and be too focused inside the cockpit instead of outside. But that's something that can be corrected in your first few lessons. And btw. focusing on your instruments is something you shouldn't be doing in the sim either; all the visual queues are there to fly proper vfr. MS Flight simulator has lots of pretty scenery, which you can use to fly VFR and learn how to navigate by landmarks. If anything, it's a little too pretty. Real life visibility is a lot more tricky. I fly x-plane myself and while less pretty, the flight model is awesome and it models the lack of visibility pretty well. And with some add-ons the scenery isn't that bad. And if you are flying IFR, it's actually the opposite: you shouldn't look outside (typically not a lot to see there anyway) and you can't trust your senses. A lot of learning to fly is basically absorbing a lot of theory and knowledge. You don't need a plane for that and simulators are great for putting all that to the test. In any case, flight simulators are used a lot by actual pilots as well for practicing procedures, instrument approaches, etc. The backstory of X-Plane is actually that the person that created it (Austin Meyer) was struggling with getting their instrument rating and developed it initially as a way to help practice that. That was more than thirty years ago. These days sims are a lot better and both MS FS and X-Plane are very usable for learning all sorts of things about flying. The trick with both is to stop treating them like games and start treating them like the real thing. It's not perfect obviously but the planes will roughly do similar things under the same circumstances. If you fly by the numbers (speeds, altitudes, etc.), things like landings get a lot easier. You'll get a lot of the same visual queues as in a real plane (too high, too low, etc.). X-plane is actually sold for commercial usage where real pilots log real hours that actually count to their ratings. The difference with the regular version is a USB-key that locks down some of the settings and a lot of hardware that you can buy yourself as well.
mongol 3y ago
What would be the most troublefree way to get a decent MS Flight Simulator setup? For example, does it exist on the XBox?
- strictnein 3y ago
  The Xbox Series X/S will run MS Flight Sim. If you pay for game pass its included.
- CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
  Get the Logitech X52 Professional HOTAS, can be had for under ~250 EUR, probably way cheaper second-hand and will let you have a not-super-shitty-but-not-super-expensive setup to get started with. If you discover you really enjoy flight simulation, get a proper chair that you can install the HOTAS into, + install rudders and also get a VR headset. Flight simulation with a VR headset is night and day compared to without a VR headset. Suddenly you can look around and get a feeling of where you are and where you are going.
kabes 3y ago
I have a PPL and I recently tested some simulators and I find them way more difficult than actual flying, because there's no sense of distance and no motion. So maybe they're a great way to learn IFR, but for VFR you would need a motion platform and VR goggles.
w10-1 3y ago
The key thing about flying is that you as pilot are responsible, for people's lives. Everyone who flies has sufficient knowledge and skills, but many don't have good decision-making, particularly under pressure. You're likely to learn some bad habits from self-teaching in simulator, but those mostly can be unlearned. The real problem would be having excess confidence. That's the #1 killer. Flying a real plane in challenging situations should frankly scare you into being a stickler, and staying well clear of your personal limits. If you want to be a good pilot, start with 10+ hours of glider training and then train on something other than a Cessna high-wing (which takes almost no skill for stall recovery). And for knowledge, learn the fundamentals from the FAA books (not the internet or experience in a simulator).
- yetanotherloss 3y ago
  Gliders or ultralights are a great way to get your head around the way the aircraft moves and what you feel when it does. Being a stickler is one of those cultural things that never makes it into the entertainment world. So much more planning goes into even the simplest flight that the sims mostly handwave. I play IL2 a lot and it's funny seeing the missions generate weather that would have grounded early aircraft full stop.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > Everyone who flies has sufficient knowledge and skills In theory, this is true; in practice, a few evenings spent reading NTSB reports or watching Juan Brown (blancolirio on YouTube) will reveal that not everyone who flies/flew has these essentials.
nivenhuh 3y ago
I’m an instrument rated private pilot. The things I like about flight simulator: - it’s great for checking out an unfamiliar area you’re flying to - you can connect ForeFlight to it, so you can use your digital charts / EFB in the same way you would in the cockpit - you can get really good IFR approach practice in - with head tracking (or vr), VFR flight is pretty accurate to the real thing
kashunstva 3y ago
When I got my initial initials rating, home flight simulation was of low quality and I didn’t spend any time on it. Things were a little more advanced when I did my instrument rating. It was all good practice but doing holding pattern entries from different courses relative to the hold was invaluable in improving my situational awareness and confidence. Definite plus in staying ahead of the aircraft on instrument approach procedures.
JamilD 3y ago
Procedures and flows is a big one. It really helps for understanding the "flow" of processes and making sure you don't spend too much precious time in the cockpit repeating the same things just to try to get in the habit of e.g., the flow of engine start, going through your checklists, doing crosswind corrections, etc. For the feel and the mechanics of flying VFR, there's nothing you can do except build that intuition, feel, and muscle memory in the aircraft itself. But I disagree it's useless for all aspects of VFR training.
zrav 3y ago
Here a certified flight instructor compares his experience teaching MS Flight Sim users vs DCS users. Anecdotal as it might be, he notes a clear advantage to the DCS users in the areas of situational awareness, intuitive flying skills & energy management, instrument scan and communication: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztTnzPEyP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztTnzPEyP4
ForFreedom 3y ago
Consider this, driving a car on xbox/pc compared to IRL
- matwood 3y ago
  You mean like this? https://www.insider.com/formula-1-simulator-racing-team-alex-albon-williams-2023-11 https://www.insider.com/formula-1-simulator-racing-team-alex... Not a replacement, but certainly helps.
  - ForFreedom 3y ago
    Here f1 drivers memorize each turn, how much to brake and practice on a real car once this is over. This simulator is far superior to the ones available on a pc/gaming console.
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amleon 3y ago
I have a VR setup with force feedback rudders and joysticks, and it has absolutely helped with my tailwheel and general stick and rudder skills. Another thing to consider is that you can safely simulate engine-out emergencies on takeoff. It’s quite surprising just how far forward you need to push the nose over! Another thing that has been very enlightening is to read over accident reports and try to simulate the situation as closely as possible: over-weight, aft-cg, high density altitude, boxed into a mountain canyon with no way out… and you can see just how terrifying some of these situations are and if there was any way to get out of them. The sim can be as realistic as you want to make it. One huge benefit for beginner pilots is to practice your radio skills with virtual ATC. When I was a student pilot, talking to air traffic control was sometimes much harder than flying the plane!
- sigmoid10 3y ago
  The big problem for me is the flight model. I can only speak for the Diamond aircraft in the game, because those are the ones I have flown in real life, but their physics model is dog shit. Totally unrealistic behaviour in any non-standard situation. If you want to train emergency manoeuvres close to stall speed (like engine-out on takeoff), I have found X-Plane to be way more accurate. The only thing I would use MSFS for is procedure or instrument training, because they simulate some of the newer Garmin glass cockpit avionics pretty nicely.
  - kensai 3y ago
    Is there a comparison between the flight models of X-Plane and MSFS? Are all models better in X-Plane or it depends on the model?
    - azalemeth 3y ago
      The cannonical wisdom is that X-plane, being based in blade-element theory and actually simulating the plane, can be really very good but also is much less performant and may not completely capture some specific (unmodelled yet aerodynamically significant) edge cases, I think including things like the exact behaviour of sprung trim tabs in low airspeed stalls. MSFS on the other hand is one giant lookup table. In theory more accurate in the well measured region and less so farther away from reality. I personally have spent a fair amount of time in gliders. XPlane captures their dynamics a lot better than MSFS -- but the really, really missing thing in both cases is your inner ear: the acceleration is a core part of how things feel and you really can't replicate the sensations that well (even in a full motion simulation, I think). Doing practices for failed winch launches (at 3g+!) is easy in a simulation. It isn't in real life. Both tools have FAA/CAA/EASA approved versions for flight training. Real flight training involves a lot of stick and rudder for a reason.
FerretFred 3y ago
Bearing in mind the number of times I've crashed - both during takeoff and landing - I've convinced myself that I'm not cut out to be a pilot... so, yes!
tmilard 3y ago
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talkingtab 3y ago
Learn to fly definitely. After hours with flight simulator a friend once took me up for a ride, the radio went out (not a big emergency) but I was able to do much of the flying while he dealt with the problem. Understanding the fundamentals made it much easier to step right in. As to being a better pilot, there was an A10 Warthog simulator for the Mac long ago. I was a passenger in a small private jet that did the U-turn-while-losing-lots-of-altitude thing and could see out the cockpit window. But I had already seen it and done it in the A10 simulator. Just my experience.
traceroute66 3y ago
Ask any flight instructor, they'll all tell you the same thing. The one thing they hate more than anything else is ab-initio (i.e. zero hours) student pilots turning up who've spent time on the computer flight sim. It always ends up with "the talk" where the instructor politely invites the student to put a stop to their sim career whilst they get some real hours under their belt. Basic flight training is done VFR, i.e. "seat of your pants", based on visual environmental cues, combined with radio where required. The student learns to juggle the fundamental Aviate, Navigate, Communicate routine ... and its always evident who has come from a flightsim background, because they whilst they might be OK at some parts of Aviate they are scary at Navigate, shit at Communicate and just a complete liability when it comes to combining all three. People coming from a flight-sim background have too many bad habits ingrained which need to be bashed out of them. Its a waste of everyone's time, and its a waste of the student's money because they are throwing money down the pan which could have been avoided if they spent less time sim. Now, later on in your flying career. Once you get into instrument flight, then CAREFUL use of a flight sim can be useful. But in the end, there's still no substitute for real-life.
- DiffEq 3y ago
  It is not the tool it is how you use it. I used X-plane with VR and I had a yoke and peddles, etc. Cost me a couple thousand. It more than paid for itself. My training flights were about once a week but sometimes only once a month due to scheduling and weather. Whatever my lesson was one day in the real plane I would go home and do that lesson over and over again, radio calls, etc till next lesson; if I knew what the next lesson was going to cover I would also practice that... My instructor thought I was a flight prodigy and turns out I just practiced a lot...but I couldn't have done that without the sim.
dimastopel 3y ago
I just got my PPL a year ago. My instructor did a survey among all students who got the license and among other things asked 1) how many flight hours did it take you to get the license 2) did you play with a simulator in your spare time. There was a clear inverse correlation between the two, meaning that those who did play with the simulator had to use less hours to get the license.
- 0wis 3y ago
  I can concur with personal experience : I learned to fly at a young age (14-15 year old) and was able to go solo and get licensed with the minimum required hours and age due to hundreds of hours of sim. Even to practice every procedure that has to be memorized while piloting, it was worth it.
- CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
  Another 100% (dangerous) anecdote: once upon a time, a boss of mine took me for a flight in his Cessna. As is tradition for him, he let the passenger up front to control the airplane in the air for a minute or two. Apparently, he thought I was good enough when controlling the airplane in the air that I should attempt a landing. As I was young and dumb, I obliged and successfully landed the airplane. Even have video evidence of this happening which is a fun ~10 minute video of me lacking composure while landing my first airplane. And yes, I attribute this to me spending 1000+ hours in various flight simulators since I got my first computer. And also yes, I know this was reckless and dangerous.
  - Enginerrrd 3y ago
    Reckless, dangerous, and AWESOME.
  - rainsford 3y ago
    The best part of that story is that at least for small planes, I feel like landing is one of the things simulators are worst at simulating and least useful as a replacement for experience in a real plane. Maybe the whole approach and decent is simulated OK, but I don't think I've ever flow a sim (even the "real" ones) that quite captures the last part settling gently down onto the ground. But trainers can also take some pretty rough landings :)
xyst 3y ago
A person was able to become a professional motorsport racer by fully immersing himself in a simulator, Gran Turismo [1]. Apply the same resolve and can likely do the same with flying! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough
- CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
  GT Academy ("GT Academy provided skilled Gran Turismo players an opportunity to earn a real-life professional racing career with Nissan") seems to have spawned a couple of interesting real-life drivers, I wonder why they stopped doing it after 2016? Would also be interesting to see a Microsoft Flight Simulator edition of the same thing :)
  - xyst 3y ago
    Some digging into why this suddenly dropped off in 2016. It appears the person that architected and pushed for this internally at Nissan left the company in 2015. No surprise that corp decided to kill the program <1 year later. Probably very expensive to run or sponsor an F1 -3 organization MS already sponsors Excel competitions. So why not flight simulator.
effnorwood 3y ago
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pizza234 3y ago
There are posts of students sharing their experiences using flight simulators to enhance their flight training; they discuss their perspectives on how these simulators have been beneficial in their practice and learning process. I was aware of one, but couldn't find it. Here's another interesting one: https://fsnews.eu/using-msfs-for-flight-training-helped-pass-private-pilot https://fsnews.eu/using-msfs-for-flight-training-helped-pass.... This is the conclusion: Did my home simulator help me save money on flight training? Yes and no. I passed my Private Pilot checkride after just about 4 months and 68.9 hours in my logbook. According to the FAA’s statistics, the national average is 75 hours, and my instructors at my Part 61 school say that their typical students are generally around 75-80 hours. Therefore, I would put my “graduation” on the slightly low side of average. I think that I can certainly attribute some savings to the sim – learning the Garmin avionics, for example – but it is difficult to tell with certainty. [...]
gilbetron 3y ago
Years ago I worked on a flight simulator for the Air Force and talked to a lot of people (pilots, instructors, etc) about them. The general findings are that simulators are terrible for learning the physical skills of flying, and in fact can result in negative learning that must be "unlearned". However, our simulator was a procedural trainer - turns out there's lots of weird and complex procedures needed to learn to fly, and simulators are great for that because you can controls the situations and create really great learning environments.
simonjgreen 3y ago
Yes, with caveats. If you want the experience to be genuinely useful you really need to go all in. Head tracking or VR, charts, pay for an ATC service (not VATSIM, sorry), plane models that are extremely complete and complex, and decent yoke/pedals/throttle setup. Then turn off every single assist and dial up all the realism. And even then you need to take everything you experience with a pinch of salt. I used FSX while I was learning to fly, with a setup part spec’d with my instructor. Once I was around 10 hours in real flight it became meaningfully useful to augment with sim as well. Especially things like flight planning, leg timing, checklists, etc. Two other things it’s especially useful for is learning the Garmin (again needs paid addons) and for practicing approaches.
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  > Then turn off every single assist and dial up all the realism. Maybe for a total beginner this could be done gradually. Would you agree? I'm assuming, as someone who knows very little about flying, other than a lot of flying is automated for the most part, that a total beginner would be overwhelmed. > And even then you need to take everything you experience with a pinch of salt. Fully agree, though I think they're trying to figure out just how much if any do you learn. I think the best way for anyone to learn might just be to go to a flight school. Your fly hours is what matters more than anything because if shows you are capable.
  - pc86 3y ago
    While most small planes have some form of autopilot, few have the Flight Director-driven "set it and forget it" type of autopilot most people imagine in their heads. A lot of older planes will just have a 1- or 2-axis autopilot which eliminates some of the workload for a pilot but you're still flying largely manually and making sure the autopilot doesn't kill you by.
    - giancarlostoro 3y ago
      Thank you for the insight, I heard this from someone retired who worked for Boeing, so it is definitely not a good metric.
simonswords82 3y ago
Yep, I'm a pilot and have been working on getting my instrument rating out of London Southend airport in the UK. I purchased the London Southend airport upgrade to make the airport more realistic. I have the exact same Cessna 172 that I fly (with steam gauges, not a modern glass cockpit). And for the low low price of £FREE compared to circa £250 per tacho hour I can test my heart out on the exact test that I need to pass to get my rating.
markfinn 3y ago
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gadders 3y ago
Someone in the comments mentions that they use it when flying into an unfamiliar airport to learn the terrain. I often wondered if Special Forces or Swat Teams could use an FPS for a similar purpose to learn the layout of a building they are going to assault or infiltrate. I'm pretty sure you could drop me anywhere in the first level of Doom and I'd know where I was.
scarier 3y ago
Story time, a decade or so ago at one of the Naval Air Stations where they conduct intermediate/advanced jet training. The base did a community outreach event where they invited the aerospace club from a local school (basically an extracurricular program where they played a lot of MSFS) to spend an afternoon in the T-45C simulator. This being Naval Aviation, each guest had the opportunity to attempt a carrier landing. Most of them sucked at it (of course they did--it's hard enough for experienced pilots). The last person to go was a tiny hispanic girl, maybe a fourth-grader. She needed to sit on a stack of NATOPS manuals like a foot thick to be able to get to the design eye height, and was unable to reach the rudder pedals or pretty much anything other than the throttle and stick. She trapped on her first try. No idea where she ended up, but I hope that she's at least had the opportunity to become a pilot by now. Anyway, I think simulator training is fantastic procedural training (normal, emergency, and instrument procedures in particular, but a good sim with force feedback should instill good habit patterns regarding trimming the aircraft in response to throttle/configuration changes and lots of other things). I've never been impressed with full-motion sims though--lots of stick-and-rudder skills really need flight hours to build still.
IndrekR 3y ago
I was visiting local flight school and checked their FNTP II MCC simulators few years ago. Instructor told me they will not let any students do training on simulators before they have real flight hours.
thesaintlives 3y ago
I can say with all certainty that learning to fly a real plane will make you a better flight simulator pilot!
snowsummer 3y ago
I used it for private pilot training and it is very helpful, and it's also less expensive than paying for hourly instructor or flight time. You'll still have to cough up money for actual hours, but MSFS is a great tool similar to visualization. You get what you put in.

410 points by ent101 3y ago

neilv 3y ago

https://wiki.flightgear.org/FlightGear_Flight_Academy https://wiki.flightgear.org/FlightGear_Flight_Academy

rzzzt 3y ago
In FlightGear the checklist asks you to walk around the plane and check the tire pressure.

esperent 3y ago

I've never played MS Flight Simulator, or flown a plane. However, I am learning guitar and I've discovered there's a whole range of games that are designed to teach you to play guitar. I'm currently working my way through one called Yousician which also does ukulele, bass guitar, and I think singing and piano too. Rockstar is another one, but I couldn't get it to work well with a classical guitar while Yousician seems to be amazingly good at hearing the notes I play. It's not a complete guitar teaching tool - it doesn't replace simply practicing songs by myself without looking at a screen, which is probably the most important type of practice for any instrument. It also doesn't teach that much music theory, although it does cover the basic better than I expected. But it does one thing amazingly well. It motivates me to practice, especially at the beginner level where I'm not making any particularly nice music, and it's teaching me a lot of the basic coordination and muscle memory while doing so. It also provides carefully curated challenge levels, which I can pick from depending on my current learning level and, just as important, how I'm feeling at that moment. I think flight sims would be similar. They can't replace the genuine experience of flying a plane, of course. But we human learn well in a multi-modal manner. We can memorize a route by flying over a virtual map. We can memorize steps to land a plane, or to take off, in a game, even if they are not complete, and then apply what we've learned to learn the real thing quickly in an actual plane. My experience over the last few weeks with Yousician has made me far more interested in the idea of gamified learning. Besides music, flight sims, orbital mechanics (Kerbal Space Program), and a few small code games like Flexbox Froggy, are there any other good gamified learning games?

bluechair 3y ago

While we’re on the subject of simulators, I cannot recommend “10 Steps to Complex Learning” enough.

ipsum2 3y ago

Someone successfully hijacked, flew, and did a barrel roll on a plane just from learning from video games, though it's not clear if it was Microsoft Flight Simulator: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/video-games-pilots-wonder-how-plane-thief-learned-to-do-aerial-acrobatics/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/video-games-pilots... Though there's some skepticism here: > Some of Mr. Russell’s actions, such as knowing to be at a certain elevation to perform certain aerial moves, suggested he may have learned them from a flight simulator, Mr. Todd said. > “It’s highly improbable, but not impossible, that he never had a lick of flying except other than in a virtual world,” he said. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/12/us/richard-russell-q400-flight-simulator.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/12/us/richard-russell-q400-f...

n2d4 3y ago
Similarly, the Barefoot Bandit, who stole several airplanes (his first at the age of 18): > It is believed that he learned how to fly small planes by reading aircraft manuals, handbooks, watching a "How to fly a small airplane" DVD, and playing flight simulator computer games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore
- samstave 3y ago
  People like this are like those extremely hyper-active dogs that should never bee cooped-up in an apartment -- we need to throw people like that onto a creativity farm and call it an incubator.
  - jjeaff 3y ago
    That's basically what all the crypto incubators consist of.
morkalork 3y ago
That's absolutely wild and tragic. If not from video games, then from where? I can't see the 2nd article but the first mentions that he had no formal training! Did he mean to crash at the end? Was it some elaborate "going out with a bang"? I have so many questions after reading that, the story is like every idle and intrusive thought come to life at once.

null0ranje 3y ago

Flight sims are great for exploring unfamiliar airports, practicing IFR procedures, cockpit orientation (to a point), and other routine tasks. They are terrible for learning to fly, and in fact are detrimental to the task, since it teaches new students bad habits, like keeping their heads down and focusing on instruments. I fire up the sim occasionally, but I don't pretend it's a digital analog. Instead, I treat it like it's a different aircraft entirely, including simulating preflight checks and running checklists.

frenchy 3y ago
> since it teaches new students bad habits, like keeping their heads down and focusing on instruments. I'm very much not an expert on this, but I thought that most of the time, at least for recreational flying, the opposite was the problem: things like running out of fuel or doing that thing where you slowly loose altitude over the ocean without realising and then crash into the water because you're not paying attention to the instruments. My experience with flight sims is that they weren't useful, but a big part of it was that I had no skin in the game. I could always walk away from a mistake, so I got sloppy.
- null0ranje 3y ago
  Most recreational flying is under visual flight rules (VFR). Your primary reference is to everything outside of you. You will check your instruments, but 95% of the time, you'll be looking outside. At least in the US, you usually aren't under ATC direction. Thus, it's your responsibility to see and avoid. Flying over the ocean for any length of time is not a common thing recreational pilots do, and when they do, they should be a lot more prepared or flying IFR.
  - lsh123 3y ago
    I fly ifr nearly all the time with exception of local flights like a test flight after picking up the plane from annual (even then I am talking to tower or approach just in case). The main reason for me is that I like having someone (atc) watching over me, and that I don’t need to think much about airspace’s, tfrs, etc - I just do what atc tells me to do (within reasons ;) ).

rpmisms 3y ago

Sims can always help build technical knowledge, but usually lack the practical aspect. Sure, you know the ingredients for a takeoff, but can you execute in a real cockpit? Again, great for learning the ingredients.

15457345234 3y ago
Spot on, sims build all the technical knowledge but the physical feedback isn't there; it's the somatogravitic illusion that normally sends you into the ground if you aren't prepared to recognise and disregard it.

DarkmSparks 3y ago

XP12 is better, not least because it can be certified for logging "real world" flight hours. Looks pretty to: https://youtu.be/_GzhwJMFDHk?si=IzK8VttO9P58myk- https://youtu.be/_GzhwJMFDHk?si=IzK8VttO9P58myk- flight sims in general have come a long way in the last 20 years, VR and XR have completely changed the dynamic, there are even EASA approved VR helicopter sims now (that are actually used for certified training)

radar1310 3y ago

It can teach you bad habits more than anything. But at the same time it can teach you proper procedures if you use something like Pilotedge to learn proper ATC procedures.

AYBABTME 3y ago

Just flying a plane isn't that hard, and just landing it not that harder. Doing it well per specs is hard and requires butt in the seat time. You just can't feel everything in the sim, like the gust of winds as you approach the runway, or the sudden acceleration in falling as you lose too much airspeed when trying to land, or the balloon near the runway. It'll all be simulated and you can see it with your eyes, but that's a long shot from being able to do it all in real life when all your senses are involved. I'm sure given enough sim practice you can get most of the way there but probably with exponentially more repetition.

stanski 3y ago

It helped me know more about the basics of flight, so I found it helpful. That and reading flight training books. Did it reduce the amount of actual flight hours I needed to get my license? Probably not. I think it's more help when studying for your IFR.

EMM_386 3y ago

Yes. I say that with 100% certainty based on my own experience. I was using Flight Simulator in the late 80s. I used it for 10 years, and it inspired me to become a pilot. I ended getting various ratings (private, instrument, high-performance, commecial ...). I knew how to fly an ILS before I had my introductory flight in a Cessna 172. I knew what I was looking at and not bewildered by all of the unfamiliar gauges. It's not going to help you land a small plane when the winds are 160/17G25 and it's a crosswind. That you have to experience. But I could fly to the nearest VOR on the first day.

MenhirMike 3y ago

To quote the best Indiana Jones movie: Flying, yes. Landing, no!

dudul 3y ago
I dont remember this quote from Raiders...

badcarbine 3y ago

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yurisagalov 3y ago

Yes for instrument flying, but I would avoid it for your private pilot's license (PPL - first license). Your PPL is mostly about "feeling" the airplane and looking outside the window, not inside the plane at your instrument cluster. You'll pick up more bad habits than good from flying in a sim for your PPL. It's not that these bad habits can't be fixed, but it'll likely actually _add_ time to fix them. After you have your private license, by all means, use a sim to help you get familiar with an unfamiliar route/airport/etc. I'll often even watch YouTube videos of landings at airports I'm not familiar with. For your instrument rating a good sim can actually be quite helpful. You're exclusively looking inside the plane, setting up radios, approaches, VORs, GPS, etc. Having an intimate familiarity with how your various automations work can help.

DennisP 3y ago
I'm no expert myself but recently I did see a flight instructor on youtube with the opposite opinion, saying that people with a lot of flight sim experience were his best beginner students, and tended to get their PPL in the fewest hours.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Some anecdata here. I got to fly in a combat sim for few hours and the operators were surprised at some of the things I knew how to do just from playing videogames in the past. I do agree with the grandparent that it won't help with feel, but I also think that it will help build a knowledge base that can be a useful starting point.
  - japanman185 3y ago
    You: Reword the post below so I won’t get banned from hackewnews again, but still do it in the format of a stereotypical hacker news comment. I wish people would stop using the word anecdata like it is correct just because they saw some arrogant self important reply using it in their hackernews comment. Firstly it is anecdote so the plural would be anecdotes or if you want to continue with being weird, it’s anecdota. Do the red squiggly lines not direct you at all to thinking “maybe this is wrong”. Secondly invariably when someone (wrongly) uses the word “anecdata” they only ever produce a paragraph relating to one specific point of view - their own. ChatGPT: It's intriguing to observe the evolution of language in tech communities, particularly on Hacker News. For instance, the term 'anecdata' seems to be gaining traction, though its usage diverges from conventional language norms. Traditionally, 'anecdote' is the singular form, with 'anecdotes' or perhaps 'anecdota' as a more esoteric plural. It's always beneficial to pay heed to the cues from our writing tools, like the spellchecker's red squiggly lines, as they often guide us toward standard language practices. Furthermore, it's worth noting that discussions enriched by diverse perspectives are more insightful. While 'anecdata' typically encapsulates a singular viewpoint, embracing a variety of experiences could enhance the richness of our conversations here.

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wkat4242 3y ago

Yes but it is more likely to make you a terrible one without the right guidance by a real pilot. It teaches all kinds of bad habits. My instructor aldus told me off for chasing the instruments in VFR for example. It can help, especially in VR but only as an addition to real flight training. That's my opinion anyway.

david422 3y ago

I got my PPL. I didn't spend much time in MSFS, but I will say I had a much harder time practicing landing in the sim than in real life. Being able to look out the window, glance around, actually judge distance, etc. for staying in the pattern was much easier in a real plane.

ericpauley 3y ago
PPL/IFR here. I had a really hard time using MSFS for the first time, mostly because the trim felt so wrong! In primary training we’re continually taught to pitch and then use trim to remove tension, but with consumer sim gear this isn’t possible. Maddening!

mmaunder 3y ago

Yes. I passed my instrument rating earlier this year by using MSFS and X-plane integrated with PilotEdge and working my way through several I ratings on PE. Lots of additional studying by reading the entire Jepp IR book and using Sheppard for review before the written. Also a ton of flying under foggles practicing everything in the standards and making it second nature. Checkride was gnarly in Kansas noon convection turbulence but passed. Sims with PilotEdge help big time on learning to copy clearance, departure, en route and shooting the many approaches available. Also helps to stay current and to review a challenging approach before doing it for real. And it can somewhat help with G1000 avionics programming but it’s not exactly the same - more of a general guideline. I’d avoid Vatsim. Sorry fans. I just don’t find it’s up to the same standard in realism and professionalism. Also lots of controllers who don’t know their stuff. Also avoid getting sucked into the gamer aspect of flight sim. You have to actually be training in real aircraft and studying and supplement with sim. Active pause is great for avionics programming, VOR nav and more. You can do it all with a joystick. Pedals and yoke are pointless because sims can’t simulate things like turbulence or crosswind landings. An RTX 3xxx GPU is plenty. I used a laptop RTX 4090 and desktop 3 series gpu. Lastly if you actually do an instrument rating, learn how to calm yourself with a slow breath in and a slow breath out and never quit during the checkride, no matter how hard it seems. You are PIC and the DPE is pushing your limits, so assume you’re alone, breath deep and work the problem. Real life single pilot IMC is intense so this is the way.

chs20 3y ago
Simulating cross-wind landings doesn't sound that hard, why do you think current sims don't do it well?
- mmaunder 3y ago
  Because I practice them a lot and the dynamics of a real x-wind landing is not reproducible in a home sim. You can practice where to put the controls. But in a trainer like a 172 or DA20 you can’t practice the forces you feel pushing back at you and the other seat-of-pants aspects. One of the drills I do is to descend to 50ft over the runway and then hold the plane on centerline in a eg 20kt crosswind. The sim just can’t even come close to how dynamic and effective that exercise is. Also the feeling of putting down one wheel first, feeling the bump, then the other. The slight skid and side g forces of you mess it up slightly. Those kinds of things. There are many things that sims can’t reproduce that don’t matter that much when it comes to productive learning. But with cross wind landings, these things matter a lot. I’m specifically referring to home simulators and MSFS and X-plane specifically. I have no experience in full motion commercial jet or military sims.

daly 3y ago

I have about 2000 hours of flight simulator time starting from when it first came out. I really miss Meigs field. I signed up for private pilot lessons. The first day with the instructor I did a walk around inspection, started the plane, talked to the tower, did a taxi and takeoff. The instructor let me fly for a while then put me "under the hood" so I couldn't see, said "It's my airplane", took control and flipped it all around, and then said "Your plane". The flight controls were all I could see. I could see that I was in a dive with rotation so I cut the throttle, centered the stick and kicked opposite rudder until the rotation stopped then regained level flight. The flight instructor said that was "pretty good but could be better". I asked him if this was a first-day test for a private pilot's license. He was shocked. He thought I was going for an instrument rating. I pointed out that this was my first time ever in a small plane and first time ever as an actual pilot. The lessons got easier after that :-) So, yeah, if you spend a year's worth of time in the sim it will help a lot.

rubyron 3y ago
As I was reading this, I was mentally preparing my reply to call BS on your story, as no instructor would do this on your first lesson. Glad to see the twist at the end - great story!
- pc86 3y ago
  Almost as unbelievable as a CFII confusing someone who had never stepped foot in a small plane before with someone going for an instrument rating?
  - jcrites 3y ago
    Yeah, it’s a cool story but not really believable. * A student in an instrument flight is doing 99.9% of the work. The instructor is really there as a guide. The instructor will expect a student to do almost everything, from taxiing the plane, to taking off, to the radios. There’s no way that the instructor will pilot the plane into the air for the student. Even PPL students on their very first lesson can taxi the airplane and be guided through takeoff. Why would an instrument student sit passively by? * Any instructor worth their salt would review the student’s logbook, and his would’ve been empty or he wouldn’t even have one. I can’t see this happening even as the result of some kind of massive mixup. * An instructor meeting a new student for the first time, for instrument flight, and instructor doesn’t even ask how many flight hours the student has? What training or experience they have? I’ve trained with a number of instructors, and none has taken me in an airplane without asking these kind of basic questions. Flying in a simulator also doesn’t generally prepare you for the preflight (walk-around). Anyone going for their instrument rating would know how to do this solo — and the instructor would expect the student to do it most likely (maybe not for instrument lessons?) — whereas someone who hasn’t stepped foot in a plane wouldn’t know how to do it at all. Are you really going to know how to check fuel levels and oil levels from the simulator? I doubt it. (There are some highly realistic simulator mods that get close though, and can simulate the preflight too.) * The original story does not use accurate terminology. (A CFII that I asked about this story wrote: “When you give the controls to a student you don’t let them aimlessly wonder under the hood you give a radial to follow or some nav aid - no one aimlessly wanders for instrument training. Dude doesn’t know basic terminology either: Anyone worth two cents would say pull the throttle, rolled out of the bank stepped on the rudder to remove the yaw.”) I’ve taken flight lessons but don’t have a PPL. I also have a lot of simulator time in DCS/MSX/XPlane.

flippy_flops 3y ago

I’ve wondered the same about flying drones. I ruined a drone once so then I spent a lot of time trying to learn on the DRS app but it feels almost impossible. Is that a realistic simulator?

aaron695 3y ago
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Toutouxc 3y ago
Not sure about your app, but simulators like Liftoff or Velocidrone are really great if you don't want start by crashing your expensive drone A LOT. Flying an FPV drone (in proper Acro mode) is objectively pretty difficult and requires a lot of coordination. In my case I found being a flight-simmer really helped with getting started with Liftoff — I could take off, make turns and generally fly where I wanted in under 30 minutes. My first IRL drone flight was after ~20 hours of Liftoff, I could go straight to Acro mode and fly around the garden without hitting anything. It felt close to what I knew from Liftoff, the main difference was the ugly analog camera feed in the goggles instead of glorious 4K at home. That made it a bit disorienting. Otherwise it's (IMO) the same thing for just flying around (not pro-level racing or breathtaking precision aerobatics).

lsh123 3y ago

The purpose of initial training is to teach the pilot how to fly a plane “by feel”. The best PC simulators still lack the details: How does wind sound change with airspeed and AOA? How does wing tell you it’s about to stall? How does the engine sound when you lean it? Etc. I learned to fly in a Citabria with basic VFR instruments (not even a six pack!), and my instructor closed instruments all the time teaching me not to rely on instruments while flying VFR. These lessons helped me a lot over years. I fly seaplanes in the summers that usually have basic vfr instruments only and it is a lot of fun. Simulators are fantastic for learning instrument flying. I try to practice on a simulator at least once or twice a week - just a quick flight with 2-3 approaches to minimums. But it helps to keeps the scan going and also practice various failures in a safe environment.

inoffensivename 3y ago

I'm an airline pilot and an instructor. If you spend thousands of hours in a flight simulator, you're probably the type of person who will try to absorb all the information you can about flying airplanes. This kind of person will probably do well when learning to fly the real thing. There will be a lot of bad habits to break, not the least of which is a fixation on the instruments. I do not recommend somebody go and spend time on a simulator to do their VFR training, it's a waste of time. You will learn far faster in the real plane and your time not flying is better spent studying the books. Just one (not so humble) pilot/instructor's opinion. EDIT: for IFR flying, the simulator is very useful, but I would recommend using it under the guidance of an instrument instructor. It's easy to pick up bad habits otherwise.

LAC-Tech 3y ago
You mentioned some good and bad things acquired from flight sims. Overall would say you net negative or net positive?
- japanman185 3y ago
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beefield 3y ago
I have flown gliders when I was younger and occasionally thought about PPL. And I have thought sims as well. Given the glider backcround, am I going to learn bad things on a sim?
- vdqtp3 3y ago
  Glider is widely recommended as an entry to powered flight. You'll be better prepared and will have better stick and rudder skills than most student pilots.
  - rolph 3y ago
    it also wont be such a shock the first time you lose engine thrust.

willhackett 3y ago

My former partner is a pilot and would train new routes on flight simulator. I thought it was amazing the level of detail could be that helpful.

langsoul-com 3y ago

I can yes, and we should advance simulations, both AR and VR to be even better. There's really tiers of simulation, from just reading or watching, playing a basic flight sim, playing a realistic one with joystick and rudder, VR or AR flight sim and then a physical cockpit. Say what about AR simulations for surgery? Or bring a mechanic. Practice, in a realistic, and most importantly, low cost environment is a marvel of today's world.

subhro 3y ago

One of the irritating things about simulators (barring FFS) is the amount of lag and lack of feel of air on the controls. MS Flight simulator will probably help you with non flying procedures and communication. Also, it is useful (partially in my books) when doing instrument training. Otherwise you are better served with a Cessna 1x2 (where x = 5, 7 or if really pushing it 8) and a competent CFI. Keep the rubber side down.

franky47 3y ago

The environmental benefit of practicing in a virtual environment rather than burning actual fuel is also a nice side-effect of having access to quality flight simulation software. I wonder what other industries could benefit from digitisation this way.

kjs3 3y ago

I know some pilots (actual licenses, a couple of whom are commercial pilots) who tell me (non-pilot, don't even pretend) they use MFS to get an idea of the approach to an airport they've never been to. I know some pilots who tell me they use MFS to practice multitasking they various things they need to do to land the plane. I know some pilots who tell me they use MFS to get familiar with the instrument layout on a plane they haven't flown. Every pilot I know says something to the effect 'at the end of the day, MFS is a game and not a hard one...you can't be a pilot without flying the plane and MFS doesn't teach that".

jcalvinowens 3y ago

Flying a real airplane is easier than flying a simulator, because you have so much more sensory input available. Because of this, you are likely to teach yourself bad habits in the simulator that will be expensive to unlearn in a real airplane. If you insist on doing it, read "Stick And Rudder" first: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780070362406 https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780070362406 As other comments have observed, the most motivated students tend to be the ones who go to the extra trouble to use simulators: it is possible the simulators are useless, and students who would otherwise be successful just tend to seek them out.

glhaynes 3y ago
What sort of bad habits?
- jcalvinowens 3y ago
  Generally an over-reliance on the instruments. Not looking out the front window as the primary means of judging the aircraft's attitude, not navigating visually. Also, not using trim in a realistic way (looking at you, magical set-trim-to-level button...).
docandrew 3y ago
From my experience flying and instructing students, the extra sensory input from a real airplane makes it more difficult, not less, than flying a simulator. It’s easier to get task-saturated, random things such as sun glare on your instruments, a bug-spattered windshield, crummy radios, etc all contribute to a more challenging environment. Simulators can be a useful training aid and are a good tool for mission rehearsal but no replacement for the real thing.
- wkipling 3y ago
  I think the difference is like you say in the real aircraft you can get a lot more task saturated. A sim feels like being a fly on the wall almost as if in 3rd person. But as far as manual handling goes, the real jet is much easier, runway textures and peripheral cues for landing are far more obvious in reality.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

I think the reality is that the type of people interested in flying will have spent a lot of time in simulators already by the time they start taking lessons and it really helps. You'll already know what each instrument is, how to read it, in what order to do things, running check-lists, how to start the plane, taxi, navigate, etc. You'll probably be a bit clumsy at the controls and be too focused inside the cockpit instead of outside. But that's something that can be corrected in your first few lessons. And btw. focusing on your instruments is something you shouldn't be doing in the sim either; all the visual queues are there to fly proper vfr. MS Flight simulator has lots of pretty scenery, which you can use to fly VFR and learn how to navigate by landmarks. If anything, it's a little too pretty. Real life visibility is a lot more tricky. I fly x-plane myself and while less pretty, the flight model is awesome and it models the lack of visibility pretty well. And with some add-ons the scenery isn't that bad. And if you are flying IFR, it's actually the opposite: you shouldn't look outside (typically not a lot to see there anyway) and you can't trust your senses. A lot of learning to fly is basically absorbing a lot of theory and knowledge. You don't need a plane for that and simulators are great for putting all that to the test. In any case, flight simulators are used a lot by actual pilots as well for practicing procedures, instrument approaches, etc. The backstory of X-Plane is actually that the person that created it (Austin Meyer) was struggling with getting their instrument rating and developed it initially as a way to help practice that. That was more than thirty years ago. These days sims are a lot better and both MS FS and X-Plane are very usable for learning all sorts of things about flying. The trick with both is to stop treating them like games and start treating them like the real thing. It's not perfect obviously but the planes will roughly do similar things under the same circumstances. If you fly by the numbers (speeds, altitudes, etc.), things like landings get a lot easier. You'll get a lot of the same visual queues as in a real plane (too high, too low, etc.). X-plane is actually sold for commercial usage where real pilots log real hours that actually count to their ratings. The difference with the regular version is a USB-key that locks down some of the settings and a lot of hardware that you can buy yourself as well.

mongol 3y ago

What would be the most troublefree way to get a decent MS Flight Simulator setup? For example, does it exist on the XBox?

strictnein 3y ago
The Xbox Series X/S will run MS Flight Sim. If you pay for game pass its included.
CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
Get the Logitech X52 Professional HOTAS, can be had for under ~250 EUR, probably way cheaper second-hand and will let you have a not-super-shitty-but-not-super-expensive setup to get started with. If you discover you really enjoy flight simulation, get a proper chair that you can install the HOTAS into, + install rudders and also get a VR headset. Flight simulation with a VR headset is night and day compared to without a VR headset. Suddenly you can look around and get a feeling of where you are and where you are going.

kabes 3y ago

I have a PPL and I recently tested some simulators and I find them way more difficult than actual flying, because there's no sense of distance and no motion. So maybe they're a great way to learn IFR, but for VFR you would need a motion platform and VR goggles.

w10-1 3y ago

The key thing about flying is that you as pilot are responsible, for people's lives. Everyone who flies has sufficient knowledge and skills, but many don't have good decision-making, particularly under pressure. You're likely to learn some bad habits from self-teaching in simulator, but those mostly can be unlearned. The real problem would be having excess confidence. That's the #1 killer. Flying a real plane in challenging situations should frankly scare you into being a stickler, and staying well clear of your personal limits. If you want to be a good pilot, start with 10+ hours of glider training and then train on something other than a Cessna high-wing (which takes almost no skill for stall recovery). And for knowledge, learn the fundamentals from the FAA books (not the internet or experience in a simulator).

yetanotherloss 3y ago
Gliders or ultralights are a great way to get your head around the way the aircraft moves and what you feel when it does. Being a stickler is one of those cultural things that never makes it into the entertainment world. So much more planning goes into even the simplest flight that the sims mostly handwave. I play IL2 a lot and it's funny seeing the missions generate weather that would have grounded early aircraft full stop.
sokoloff 3y ago
> Everyone who flies has sufficient knowledge and skills In theory, this is true; in practice, a few evenings spent reading NTSB reports or watching Juan Brown (blancolirio on YouTube) will reveal that not everyone who flies/flew has these essentials.

nivenhuh 3y ago

I’m an instrument rated private pilot. The things I like about flight simulator: - it’s great for checking out an unfamiliar area you’re flying to - you can connect ForeFlight to it, so you can use your digital charts / EFB in the same way you would in the cockpit - you can get really good IFR approach practice in - with head tracking (or vr), VFR flight is pretty accurate to the real thing

kashunstva 3y ago

When I got my initial initials rating, home flight simulation was of low quality and I didn’t spend any time on it. Things were a little more advanced when I did my instrument rating. It was all good practice but doing holding pattern entries from different courses relative to the hold was invaluable in improving my situational awareness and confidence. Definite plus in staying ahead of the aircraft on instrument approach procedures.

JamilD 3y ago

Procedures and flows is a big one. It really helps for understanding the "flow" of processes and making sure you don't spend too much precious time in the cockpit repeating the same things just to try to get in the habit of e.g., the flow of engine start, going through your checklists, doing crosswind corrections, etc. For the feel and the mechanics of flying VFR, there's nothing you can do except build that intuition, feel, and muscle memory in the aircraft itself. But I disagree it's useless for all aspects of VFR training.

zrav 3y ago

Here a certified flight instructor compares his experience teaching MS Flight Sim users vs DCS users. Anecdotal as it might be, he notes a clear advantage to the DCS users in the areas of situational awareness, intuitive flying skills & energy management, instrument scan and communication: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztTnzPEyP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztTnzPEyP4

ForFreedom 3y ago

Consider this, driving a car on xbox/pc compared to IRL

matwood 3y ago
You mean like this? https://www.insider.com/formula-1-simulator-racing-team-alex-albon-williams-2023-11 https://www.insider.com/formula-1-simulator-racing-team-alex... Not a replacement, but certainly helps.
- ForFreedom 3y ago
  Here f1 drivers memorize each turn, how much to brake and practice on a real car once this is over. This simulator is far superior to the ones available on a pc/gaming console.

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amleon 3y ago

I have a VR setup with force feedback rudders and joysticks, and it has absolutely helped with my tailwheel and general stick and rudder skills. Another thing to consider is that you can safely simulate engine-out emergencies on takeoff. It’s quite surprising just how far forward you need to push the nose over! Another thing that has been very enlightening is to read over accident reports and try to simulate the situation as closely as possible: over-weight, aft-cg, high density altitude, boxed into a mountain canyon with no way out… and you can see just how terrifying some of these situations are and if there was any way to get out of them. The sim can be as realistic as you want to make it. One huge benefit for beginner pilots is to practice your radio skills with virtual ATC. When I was a student pilot, talking to air traffic control was sometimes much harder than flying the plane!

sigmoid10 3y ago
The big problem for me is the flight model. I can only speak for the Diamond aircraft in the game, because those are the ones I have flown in real life, but their physics model is dog shit. Totally unrealistic behaviour in any non-standard situation. If you want to train emergency manoeuvres close to stall speed (like engine-out on takeoff), I have found X-Plane to be way more accurate. The only thing I would use MSFS for is procedure or instrument training, because they simulate some of the newer Garmin glass cockpit avionics pretty nicely.
- kensai 3y ago
  Is there a comparison between the flight models of X-Plane and MSFS? Are all models better in X-Plane or it depends on the model?
  - azalemeth 3y ago
    The cannonical wisdom is that X-plane, being based in blade-element theory and actually simulating the plane, can be really very good but also is much less performant and may not completely capture some specific (unmodelled yet aerodynamically significant) edge cases, I think including things like the exact behaviour of sprung trim tabs in low airspeed stalls. MSFS on the other hand is one giant lookup table. In theory more accurate in the well measured region and less so farther away from reality. I personally have spent a fair amount of time in gliders. XPlane captures their dynamics a lot better than MSFS -- but the really, really missing thing in both cases is your inner ear: the acceleration is a core part of how things feel and you really can't replicate the sensations that well (even in a full motion simulation, I think). Doing practices for failed winch launches (at 3g+!) is easy in a simulation. It isn't in real life. Both tools have FAA/CAA/EASA approved versions for flight training. Real flight training involves a lot of stick and rudder for a reason.

FerretFred 3y ago

Bearing in mind the number of times I've crashed - both during takeoff and landing - I've convinced myself that I'm not cut out to be a pilot... so, yes!

tmilard 3y ago

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talkingtab 3y ago

Learn to fly definitely. After hours with flight simulator a friend once took me up for a ride, the radio went out (not a big emergency) but I was able to do much of the flying while he dealt with the problem. Understanding the fundamentals made it much easier to step right in. As to being a better pilot, there was an A10 Warthog simulator for the Mac long ago. I was a passenger in a small private jet that did the U-turn-while-losing-lots-of-altitude thing and could see out the cockpit window. But I had already seen it and done it in the A10 simulator. Just my experience.

traceroute66 3y ago

Ask any flight instructor, they'll all tell you the same thing. The one thing they hate more than anything else is ab-initio (i.e. zero hours) student pilots turning up who've spent time on the computer flight sim. It always ends up with "the talk" where the instructor politely invites the student to put a stop to their sim career whilst they get some real hours under their belt. Basic flight training is done VFR, i.e. "seat of your pants", based on visual environmental cues, combined with radio where required. The student learns to juggle the fundamental Aviate, Navigate, Communicate routine ... and its always evident who has come from a flightsim background, because they whilst they might be OK at some parts of Aviate they are scary at Navigate, shit at Communicate and just a complete liability when it comes to combining all three. People coming from a flight-sim background have too many bad habits ingrained which need to be bashed out of them. Its a waste of everyone's time, and its a waste of the student's money because they are throwing money down the pan which could have been avoided if they spent less time sim. Now, later on in your flying career. Once you get into instrument flight, then CAREFUL use of a flight sim can be useful. But in the end, there's still no substitute for real-life.

DiffEq 3y ago
It is not the tool it is how you use it. I used X-plane with VR and I had a yoke and peddles, etc. Cost me a couple thousand. It more than paid for itself. My training flights were about once a week but sometimes only once a month due to scheduling and weather. Whatever my lesson was one day in the real plane I would go home and do that lesson over and over again, radio calls, etc till next lesson; if I knew what the next lesson was going to cover I would also practice that... My instructor thought I was a flight prodigy and turns out I just practiced a lot...but I couldn't have done that without the sim.

dimastopel 3y ago

I just got my PPL a year ago. My instructor did a survey among all students who got the license and among other things asked 1) how many flight hours did it take you to get the license 2) did you play with a simulator in your spare time. There was a clear inverse correlation between the two, meaning that those who did play with the simulator had to use less hours to get the license.

0wis 3y ago
I can concur with personal experience : I learned to fly at a young age (14-15 year old) and was able to go solo and get licensed with the minimum required hours and age due to hundreds of hours of sim. Even to practice every procedure that has to be memorized while piloting, it was worth it.
CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
Another 100% (dangerous) anecdote: once upon a time, a boss of mine took me for a flight in his Cessna. As is tradition for him, he let the passenger up front to control the airplane in the air for a minute or two. Apparently, he thought I was good enough when controlling the airplane in the air that I should attempt a landing. As I was young and dumb, I obliged and successfully landed the airplane. Even have video evidence of this happening which is a fun ~10 minute video of me lacking composure while landing my first airplane. And yes, I attribute this to me spending 1000+ hours in various flight simulators since I got my first computer. And also yes, I know this was reckless and dangerous.
- Enginerrrd 3y ago
  Reckless, dangerous, and AWESOME.
- rainsford 3y ago
  The best part of that story is that at least for small planes, I feel like landing is one of the things simulators are worst at simulating and least useful as a replacement for experience in a real plane. Maybe the whole approach and decent is simulated OK, but I don't think I've ever flow a sim (even the "real" ones) that quite captures the last part settling gently down onto the ground. But trainers can also take some pretty rough landings :)

xyst 3y ago

A person was able to become a professional motorsport racer by fully immersing himself in a simulator, Gran Turismo [1]. Apply the same resolve and can likely do the same with flying! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough

CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
GT Academy ("GT Academy provided skilled Gran Turismo players an opportunity to earn a real-life professional racing career with Nissan") seems to have spawned a couple of interesting real-life drivers, I wonder why they stopped doing it after 2016? Would also be interesting to see a Microsoft Flight Simulator edition of the same thing :)
- xyst 3y ago
  Some digging into why this suddenly dropped off in 2016. It appears the person that architected and pushed for this internally at Nissan left the company in 2015. No surprise that corp decided to kill the program <1 year later. Probably very expensive to run or sponsor an F1 -3 organization MS already sponsors Excel competitions. So why not flight simulator.

effnorwood 3y ago

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pizza234 3y ago

There are posts of students sharing their experiences using flight simulators to enhance their flight training; they discuss their perspectives on how these simulators have been beneficial in their practice and learning process. I was aware of one, but couldn't find it. Here's another interesting one: https://fsnews.eu/using-msfs-for-flight-training-helped-pass-private-pilot https://fsnews.eu/using-msfs-for-flight-training-helped-pass.... This is the conclusion: Did my home simulator help me save money on flight training? Yes and no. I passed my Private Pilot checkride after just about 4 months and 68.9 hours in my logbook. According to the FAA’s statistics, the national average is 75 hours, and my instructors at my Part 61 school say that their typical students are generally around 75-80 hours. Therefore, I would put my “graduation” on the slightly low side of average. I think that I can certainly attribute some savings to the sim – learning the Garmin avionics, for example – but it is difficult to tell with certainty. [...]

gilbetron 3y ago

Years ago I worked on a flight simulator for the Air Force and talked to a lot of people (pilots, instructors, etc) about them. The general findings are that simulators are terrible for learning the physical skills of flying, and in fact can result in negative learning that must be "unlearned". However, our simulator was a procedural trainer - turns out there's lots of weird and complex procedures needed to learn to fly, and simulators are great for that because you can controls the situations and create really great learning environments.

simonjgreen 3y ago

Yes, with caveats. If you want the experience to be genuinely useful you really need to go all in. Head tracking or VR, charts, pay for an ATC service (not VATSIM, sorry), plane models that are extremely complete and complex, and decent yoke/pedals/throttle setup. Then turn off every single assist and dial up all the realism. And even then you need to take everything you experience with a pinch of salt. I used FSX while I was learning to fly, with a setup part spec’d with my instructor. Once I was around 10 hours in real flight it became meaningfully useful to augment with sim as well. Especially things like flight planning, leg timing, checklists, etc. Two other things it’s especially useful for is learning the Garmin (again needs paid addons) and for practicing approaches.

giancarlostoro 3y ago
> Then turn off every single assist and dial up all the realism. Maybe for a total beginner this could be done gradually. Would you agree? I'm assuming, as someone who knows very little about flying, other than a lot of flying is automated for the most part, that a total beginner would be overwhelmed. > And even then you need to take everything you experience with a pinch of salt. Fully agree, though I think they're trying to figure out just how much if any do you learn. I think the best way for anyone to learn might just be to go to a flight school. Your fly hours is what matters more than anything because if shows you are capable.
- pc86 3y ago
  While most small planes have some form of autopilot, few have the Flight Director-driven "set it and forget it" type of autopilot most people imagine in their heads. A lot of older planes will just have a 1- or 2-axis autopilot which eliminates some of the workload for a pilot but you're still flying largely manually and making sure the autopilot doesn't kill you by.
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    Thank you for the insight, I heard this from someone retired who worked for Boeing, so it is definitely not a good metric.

simonswords82 3y ago

Yep, I'm a pilot and have been working on getting my instrument rating out of London Southend airport in the UK. I purchased the London Southend airport upgrade to make the airport more realistic. I have the exact same Cessna 172 that I fly (with steam gauges, not a modern glass cockpit). And for the low low price of £FREE compared to circa £250 per tacho hour I can test my heart out on the exact test that I need to pass to get my rating.

markfinn 3y ago

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gadders 3y ago

Someone in the comments mentions that they use it when flying into an unfamiliar airport to learn the terrain. I often wondered if Special Forces or Swat Teams could use an FPS for a similar purpose to learn the layout of a building they are going to assault or infiltrate. I'm pretty sure you could drop me anywhere in the first level of Doom and I'd know where I was.

scarier 3y ago

Story time, a decade or so ago at one of the Naval Air Stations where they conduct intermediate/advanced jet training. The base did a community outreach event where they invited the aerospace club from a local school (basically an extracurricular program where they played a lot of MSFS) to spend an afternoon in the T-45C simulator. This being Naval Aviation, each guest had the opportunity to attempt a carrier landing. Most of them sucked at it (of course they did--it's hard enough for experienced pilots). The last person to go was a tiny hispanic girl, maybe a fourth-grader. She needed to sit on a stack of NATOPS manuals like a foot thick to be able to get to the design eye height, and was unable to reach the rudder pedals or pretty much anything other than the throttle and stick. She trapped on her first try. No idea where she ended up, but I hope that she's at least had the opportunity to become a pilot by now. Anyway, I think simulator training is fantastic procedural training (normal, emergency, and instrument procedures in particular, but a good sim with force feedback should instill good habit patterns regarding trimming the aircraft in response to throttle/configuration changes and lots of other things). I've never been impressed with full-motion sims though--lots of stick-and-rudder skills really need flight hours to build still.

IndrekR 3y ago

I was visiting local flight school and checked their FNTP II MCC simulators few years ago. Instructor told me they will not let any students do training on simulators before they have real flight hours.

thesaintlives 3y ago

I can say with all certainty that learning to fly a real plane will make you a better flight simulator pilot!

snowsummer 3y ago

I used it for private pilot training and it is very helpful, and it's also less expensive than paying for hourly instructor or flight time. You'll still have to cough up money for actual hours, but MSFS is a great tool similar to visualization. You get what you put in.