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It seems there's more to it than that [1]. Altman did a surprisingly good job of cultivating a "nice guy" image among the tech crowd, but I personally don't buy

It seems there's more to it than that [1]. Altman did a surprisingly good job of cultivating a "nice guy" image among the tech crowd, but I personally don't buy it. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/what-sam-altman-did-so-bad-he-got-fired-openai-2023-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/what-sam-altman-did-so-bad-h...

pixelatedindex 3y ago
[flagged]
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Apparently, but family drama feels a bit... weird to use for character assessment. Especially when a ton of money is involved. There are a lot of inter-family dynamics and motivations that cause people to do things. Not saying she's right. Not saying he's right. Just saying that whole situation is probably too close to home (literally) to opine globally outside it.
  - heeeheeehee 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - pixelatedindex 3y ago
    I am conflicted about that. When money is involved I think it amplifies character even more. Not everyone with a ton of money has these kinds of allegations.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      It's also a bit worse than the usual family drama.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      My guess is that a lot of families with money have these kinds of allegations, true or not. Money just usually changes hands to make sure we never hear about them. People are fundamentally people, and all do the same sorts of things. And the line between "highly successful businessperson" and "sociopath" is pretty fine.
- 127361 3y ago
  It's so important in these situations to gather as much hard evidence as possible (audio/video recordings), from the start. Voice recorders and storage are very cheap nowadays, keep them on you, running at all times if you ever find yourself in any similar circumstances. That way, it's no longer of "he said, she said", and it's clear who the problem is. Of course assuming this is legal to do so where you live.
  - striking 3y ago
    That's not always legal, is it?
    - 127361 3y ago
      Legal where I am, I've updated the comment.
  - falcor84 3y ago
    This would have been good advice a decade ago, but with how good deepfakes are now, I would argue that any audio/video evidence recorded and submitted by either party should be considered as part of their testimony rather than valid evidence, unless its provenance can be cryptographically confirmed.
    - iudqnolq 3y ago
      > unless its provenance can be cryptographically confirmed How do you envision that working? All I can think of that could in theory be possible would be using crypto to prove a video existed at a particular point in time. But that's not that valuable in terms of proof. Plus you can get the same effect by just handing a copy to someone like a lawyer who has a reputation for honesty and has a lot to lose if they're found to be dishonest.
      - falcor84 3y ago
        That's pretty much what I'm thinking too. And you don't even need to submit a copy, but rather just a cryptographic hash of your file. But there's still the issue of proving that you haven't manipulated it before handing it in, and here I can't seem to think of anything better than the recording and hash submission being done by a DRM'd tool out of the individual's full control.
- dbspin 3y ago
  Altman's sister's 'memories' of abuse were developed in adulthood [1]. Recovered memories are deeply suspect, and a number of serious miscarriages of justice have happened because of them. Most infamously the 'satanic panic' trials of the eighties and early nineties. Elizabeth Loftus has done lots of good work on the dubious nature of eyewitness testimony, and recovered memories in particular [3]. Essentially, they're far more likely to be contrived than real - especially when 'recovered' decades later during psychotherapy. I trained as a psychoanalyst myself (in addition to studying pure psychology at undergrad), and while repression and denial are genuine and common defence mechanisms; there is a whole pseudoscientific cult around elevating them into sources of personal truth. This goes back to Freud's original sin - not believing the direct accounts of family sexual abuse from his female patients, and instead perceiving them as fantasies. Ironically this has often led to an overemphasis on the veracity of unconscious beliefs [2]. [1] https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-alt... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Truth#:~:text=The%20Assault%20on%20Truth%3A%20Freud's,hysteria%20is%20caused%20by%20sexual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Truth#:~:text=T... [3] https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/society/2017/making-case-against-memories-evidence#:~:text=Loftus%20and%20other%20psychologists%20argued,sent%20many%20people%20to%20prison https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/society/2017/ma....
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    boy do I need to have a talk with all my trauma patients...
    - sesm 3y ago
      Daniil Khlomov once said, that when a patient talks to him about traumatic scenario from their past, it doesn’t matter if it actually happened or not, the only thing that matters is that the patient wants to discuss this exact scenario.
    - sinfulprogeny 3y ago
      Hey girl some dude on hacker news says your trauma is fake
- rdtsc 3y ago
  She made some serious allegations against him https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman... including sexual abuse. I was wondering if I were hiring someone and there were these allegations against them if I would hire them. Would I go by the fact that these are unproven allegations and hire the person, or keep looking, afraid of being associated with them. What about if that person was an investor. They are dangling cash in front of me? Is that a lot different than the hiring situation. I think I would rather be safe and avoid associated with them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Isnt she crazy?
api 3y ago
Too much of a nice person image makes me really skeptical, especially if it seems at all cultivated. People are people. Virtually anyone can be prickly or have some opinions you might not like. Show me the reality. I can take it because I don’t expect humans to be cardboard comic book caricatures.
rjzzleep 3y ago
It's unfortunate that everyone else was so comically bad at literally any kind of communication. I'm starting to feel like the general advice lawyers give of say nothing is a terrible advice, when you have such a public facing company. It's like what you need in that situation is a communication coach first and a lawyer second. But as an engineer that also never learned this kind of narrative control, I too am struggling at where I can learn this from. Any hints are appreciated actually. Sam Altman on the other hand has decades more experience is that playing field.
- tilne 3y ago
  This sounds like snark but it’s not intended to be: do you really need sources to learn narrative control? Perceiving how narratives work seems to be a skill that almost all humans are very good at naturally. I acknowledge that shaping narratives is a different skill set (especially the parts that require putting yourself in a position to shape narratives effectively), but in my opinion if you’re already asking the question you already have all the foundational knowledge and awareness you need to start exercising those muscles as well.
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    I get the point, but the reality is that this goes way beyond business communication. And yes, given enough time almost anyone can learn almost anything, but we're also human with limited time and it simply makes no sense trying to learn everything from scratch. You gotta know when to ask people that are experts in their respective fields.
    - andai 3y ago
      Not exactly what you asked but I think the same approach would work: I set the intention to gain insight into how stories work. This intention alone was sufficient to massively increase my abilities in this area, because during "idle time" my brain would mull over / analyze stories I'd heard recently. So I think for PR or whatever the same thing would work, simply deciding to become skilled in this area and you will naturally begin to pick up the patterns already present in your reality.
carterschonwald 3y ago
Yeah. You don’t get cult vibes happening by accident.
- deleted 3y ago
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  - deleted 3y ago
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- cinntaile 3y ago
  In OpenAI's case there are millions of dollars on the line for the employees involved so I consider that the most likely reason to stand behind him. Discounting that, are there any other companies that he's involved with where you see "cult vibes"?

pixelatedindex 3y ago

[flagged]

ethbr1 3y ago
Apparently, but family drama feels a bit... weird to use for character assessment. Especially when a ton of money is involved. There are a lot of inter-family dynamics and motivations that cause people to do things. Not saying she's right. Not saying he's right. Just saying that whole situation is probably too close to home (literally) to opine globally outside it.
- heeeheeehee 3y ago
  [flagged]
- pixelatedindex 3y ago
  I am conflicted about that. When money is involved I think it amplifies character even more. Not everyone with a ton of money has these kinds of allegations.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    It's also a bit worse than the usual family drama.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    My guess is that a lot of families with money have these kinds of allegations, true or not. Money just usually changes hands to make sure we never hear about them. People are fundamentally people, and all do the same sorts of things. And the line between "highly successful businessperson" and "sociopath" is pretty fine.
127361 3y ago
It's so important in these situations to gather as much hard evidence as possible (audio/video recordings), from the start. Voice recorders and storage are very cheap nowadays, keep them on you, running at all times if you ever find yourself in any similar circumstances. That way, it's no longer of "he said, she said", and it's clear who the problem is. Of course assuming this is legal to do so where you live.
- striking 3y ago
  That's not always legal, is it?
  - 127361 3y ago
    Legal where I am, I've updated the comment.
- falcor84 3y ago
  This would have been good advice a decade ago, but with how good deepfakes are now, I would argue that any audio/video evidence recorded and submitted by either party should be considered as part of their testimony rather than valid evidence, unless its provenance can be cryptographically confirmed.
  - iudqnolq 3y ago
    > unless its provenance can be cryptographically confirmed How do you envision that working? All I can think of that could in theory be possible would be using crypto to prove a video existed at a particular point in time. But that's not that valuable in terms of proof. Plus you can get the same effect by just handing a copy to someone like a lawyer who has a reputation for honesty and has a lot to lose if they're found to be dishonest.
    - falcor84 3y ago
      That's pretty much what I'm thinking too. And you don't even need to submit a copy, but rather just a cryptographic hash of your file. But there's still the issue of proving that you haven't manipulated it before handing it in, and here I can't seem to think of anything better than the recording and hash submission being done by a DRM'd tool out of the individual's full control.
dbspin 3y ago
Altman's sister's 'memories' of abuse were developed in adulthood [1]. Recovered memories are deeply suspect, and a number of serious miscarriages of justice have happened because of them. Most infamously the 'satanic panic' trials of the eighties and early nineties. Elizabeth Loftus has done lots of good work on the dubious nature of eyewitness testimony, and recovered memories in particular [3]. Essentially, they're far more likely to be contrived than real - especially when 'recovered' decades later during psychotherapy. I trained as a psychoanalyst myself (in addition to studying pure psychology at undergrad), and while repression and denial are genuine and common defence mechanisms; there is a whole pseudoscientific cult around elevating them into sources of personal truth. This goes back to Freud's original sin - not believing the direct accounts of family sexual abuse from his female patients, and instead perceiving them as fantasies. Ironically this has often led to an overemphasis on the veracity of unconscious beliefs [2]. [1] https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-alt... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Truth#:~:text=The%20Assault%20on%20Truth%3A%20Freud's,hysteria%20is%20caused%20by%20sexual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Truth#:~:text=T... [3] https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/society/2017/making-case-against-memories-evidence#:~:text=Loftus%20and%20other%20psychologists%20argued,sent%20many%20people%20to%20prison https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/society/2017/ma....
- Zetobal 3y ago
  boy do I need to have a talk with all my trauma patients...
  - sesm 3y ago
    Daniil Khlomov once said, that when a patient talks to him about traumatic scenario from their past, it doesn’t matter if it actually happened or not, the only thing that matters is that the patient wants to discuss this exact scenario.
  - sinfulprogeny 3y ago
    Hey girl some dude on hacker news says your trauma is fake
rdtsc 3y ago
She made some serious allegations against him https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman... including sexual abuse. I was wondering if I were hiring someone and there were these allegations against them if I would hire them. Would I go by the fact that these are unproven allegations and hire the person, or keep looking, afraid of being associated with them. What about if that person was an investor. They are dangling cash in front of me? Is that a lot different than the hiring situation. I think I would rather be safe and avoid associated with them.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nonethewiser 3y ago
Isnt she crazy?

api 3y ago

Too much of a nice person image makes me really skeptical, especially if it seems at all cultivated. People are people. Virtually anyone can be prickly or have some opinions you might not like. Show me the reality. I can take it because I don’t expect humans to be cardboard comic book caricatures.

rjzzleep 3y ago

It's unfortunate that everyone else was so comically bad at literally any kind of communication. I'm starting to feel like the general advice lawyers give of say nothing is a terrible advice, when you have such a public facing company. It's like what you need in that situation is a communication coach first and a lawyer second. But as an engineer that also never learned this kind of narrative control, I too am struggling at where I can learn this from. Any hints are appreciated actually. Sam Altman on the other hand has decades more experience is that playing field.

tilne 3y ago
This sounds like snark but it’s not intended to be: do you really need sources to learn narrative control? Perceiving how narratives work seems to be a skill that almost all humans are very good at naturally. I acknowledge that shaping narratives is a different skill set (especially the parts that require putting yourself in a position to shape narratives effectively), but in my opinion if you’re already asking the question you already have all the foundational knowledge and awareness you need to start exercising those muscles as well.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  I get the point, but the reality is that this goes way beyond business communication. And yes, given enough time almost anyone can learn almost anything, but we're also human with limited time and it simply makes no sense trying to learn everything from scratch. You gotta know when to ask people that are experts in their respective fields.
  - andai 3y ago
    Not exactly what you asked but I think the same approach would work: I set the intention to gain insight into how stories work. This intention alone was sufficient to massively increase my abilities in this area, because during "idle time" my brain would mull over / analyze stories I'd heard recently. So I think for PR or whatever the same thing would work, simply deciding to become skilled in this area and you will naturally begin to pick up the patterns already present in your reality.

carterschonwald 3y ago

Yeah. You don’t get cult vibes happening by accident.

deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
cinntaile 3y ago
In OpenAI's case there are millions of dollars on the line for the employees involved so I consider that the most likely reason to stand behind him. Discounting that, are there any other companies that he's involved with where you see "cult vibes"?