23 ms·

Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite hospital order

178 points by ode 3y ago

CelesteDvorak 3y ago
[dead]
Racing0461 3y ago
> indefinite hospital order does this actually mean life?
- htk 3y ago
  You can try reading the article: "He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger."
  - fermentation 3y ago
    They've got a long life ahead of them. Surely with actual care they would be released at some point right?
    - fb03 3y ago
      His life is in someone else's hands now, and will be for as long as the government wants. He might be fully reabilitated and regret his actions and they can still write him off as completely nuts with a simple signature in a document - and no one will put the doctor's statement through scrutiny.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Stuff like this is why I’m glad Ken Kessey’s “one flew over the cuckoos nest” become popular and helped remove government mental hospitals from being a serious consideration in the USA. This kid needs to be cultivated, not institutionalized. (Edit: never mind, seems he IS a menace to society)
- A_Duck 3y ago
  The headline glosses over "The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody with dozens of reports of injury or property damage."
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Der_Einzige 3y ago
      Oh shit, okay his sentence makes sense. Somehow I missed this part of the article.
      - brvsft 3y ago
        Are you being facetious? Stalking and harassment alone wouldn't justify a life sentence.
    - CodesInChaos 3y ago
      Isn't that part talking about the 17 year old other member of lapsus$ who received the 18 month long Youth Rehabilitation Order?
    - loeg 3y ago
      That sentence is not talking about the headline hacker (Kurtaj).
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    Custody is violence. Most people respond with patience, because they understand deescalation is their best move. This person has Autism. I think it's not a leap to conclude that he simply doesn't understand that deescalation is the right move. He may not even realize or totally comprehend that deescalation is an option! If you want to convince me this person is a menace to society, then talk about his behavior before being arrested. What did he do then? Oh, that's right, he shared video of an unreleased game... Why should I, or any other person feel threatened?
A_Duck 3y ago
> Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. Damn! Approaching https://xkcd.com/378/ https://xkcd.com/378/ ...
- yegle 3y ago
  If you have a phone with an SSH client, and access to a server, for many that's equivalent to having a full functioning PC for hacking purposes? If this is an Android phone with a rooted system (or even just a locked phone with Termux), you can even skip the SSH server. Not saying this is unimpressive though.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
> The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. >Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. This sounds too fantastical to be true. This guy is obviously brilliant, disappointing that he squandered his opportunities.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gnfargbl 3y ago
  > This sounds too fantastical to be true. Use Firestick as RDP/VNC client, use mobile phone for internet, obtain keyboard from Amazon Shopping, remote into a VM, proceed as usual?
  - ShamelessC 3y ago
    Yeah unfortunately rather obvious considering Fire Sticks run android and allow you to enable remote ADB.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    Like sure, it is technically possible he runs termux, has all of his hacking tools available, and is amazingly good with an onscreen keyboard. That being said, if this were an episode of CSI, I would be rolling my eyes.
    - rainonmoon 3y ago
      > has all of his hacking tools available So there's this wonderful program called wget.
    - solumunus 3y ago
      It really doesn’t sound that crazy. Like, almost everyone on this forum is capable of doing this from a technical perspective, right? Almost none of us would have the desire to do this, but we could figure it out if we did…
kreddor 3y ago
> Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. That's quite a feat. > Rockstar Games alone told the court that the hack cost it $5m to recover from plus thousands of hours of staff time. Either the kid is a genius or Rockstar really don't value their security much. Or maybe a bit of both?
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  From TFA, and given prior hacks, he's very skilled.
  - imglorp 3y ago
    Someone should hire him as a white hat. Maybe they have some kind of custodial guardianship where the employer can monitor him staying clean.
    - ungamedplayer 3y ago
      No company will do this because you can hire competent, non violent white hat hackers that don't need monitoring.
    - CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
      It's tough though, how do you know that they won't use those skills against you? The individual seems relatively unstable and violent, even saying during a sentencing hearing that they'll continue to do illegal breaches whenever they can. Would be great to have them on the "good" side, but would probably take a lot of energy and resources as well. Hopefully this story will have a somewhat happy ending, because it seems to not end yet.
      - Freak_NL 3y ago
        He'd need a dedicated handler, and even then judging from the article's portrayal he seems like a hopelessly unmanageable type. He'd fit in with a modern-day A-team, come to think of it.
fxtentacle 3y ago
It concluded that Lapsus$ "made clear just how easy it was for its members (juveniles, in some instances) to infiltrate well-defended organisations". To me, that sounds more like they were not well-defended ...
- lemmetaste 3y ago
  [dead]
- hypeatei 3y ago
  This is typical writing from people who aren't familiar with technology. Could this kid be a genius? Maybe. It's more likely he found exploits like the ones we're seeing on the front page today[0]. It's not super impressive or surprising, to me at least. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38720544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38720544
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    A lot of "exploits" are simply a certain level of trust that normal people have in each other I'd rather have him out than live in an absolute zero trust environment
Nextgrid 3y ago
Life in prison for non-violent crime clearly sounds like revenge and sour grapes. The big guys clearly don't appreciate having their insecurity being exposed this way (keep in mind none of these hacks required any significant technical skills), and too many people would lose face. Something had to be done, so here it is. The disparity of this punishment compared to what is usually given out for similar crimes (in the vast majority nothing as it doesn't even get investigated) suggests there is definitely some "saving face" motivation behind this sentence.
- m3kw9 3y ago
  Conditional life sentence, he can be freed if docs clear him
  - lemmetaste 3y ago
    [dead]
- qeternity 3y ago
  It’s not life in prison. He’s being confined to a mental institution due to severe autism. It’s unlikely that he can be rehabilitated and would remain a cyber security threat to society if released in the future. This is hardly revenge.
  - lemmetaste 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    This guy is as much of a "cyber security threat" as your typical socially-awkward gamer teenager, of which we have plenty of. Every internet-connected server out there constantly gets probed by bots/tools often operated by similar people and nothing is ever done about it. This guy's crime wasn't that he was hacking/phishing/stalking or the general obnoxious behavior that often comes with this kind of person - this is effectively decriminalized in the UK anyway, as long as the victim isn't a big, culturally-relevant company. Financially-motivated scammers and crime rings take advantage of this. This guy's crime is that he embarrassed the establishment, so he has to be painted a much scarier monster than he really is and made an example of, since the truth that most technically-inclined, socially-awkward teenagers would be equally capable of such hacking would be hard to accept and put into question the competence of the affected companies.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
From 'Free Kevin' to 'Free Kurtaj'
- beepboopboop 3y ago
  Not even close
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
seattle_spring 3y ago
Seems reasonable to me. Glad there aren't any comments yet saying "oh gosh it was just a video game company, those are a scourge anyway on family morals!"
- mettamage 3y ago
  Not to me, it's a slippery slope. Want to give someone a life sentence? Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label on them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for a crime that would get like 5 years in prison. The point is not the details (I'm obviously not a laywer or anything remotely related to that), the point is that it seems to be a slippery slope.
  - neilkk 3y ago
    Did you read the article?
  - theshackleford 3y ago
    > Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label on them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for a crime that would get like 5 years in prison. Good thing that’s not what happened then I guess.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      The article specifically says: > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger. So he's confined for life. Confinement is confinement, whether it's a prison or hospital. This definitely seems like a case where the government found a "backdoor" to allow them to get away with confining someone for life, even though they probably couldn't do through the normal criminal justice system because the punishment doesn't suit the crime.
      - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
        > So he's confined for life. > unless doctors deem him no longer a danger It's down to him and whether the institution he's in can do anything for him.
sbecker 3y ago
Sounds like a great hire for the CIA or MI6
- coolspot 3y ago
  Literally weaponized autism. Hacking Rockstar using FireTV stick, lol.
BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
For anyone who skips the article and comes straight to the comments, this is not because of the hacking. This is because of (alleged) violence and expressed eagerness to return to cybercrime. > The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody with dozens of reports of injury or property damage. > A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated." ... The details are absolutely wild too. I mean... > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. Holy shit, dude. This is the sort of thing they make movies about. I wonder how much of it is true.
- ametrau 3y ago
  What a cool kid honestly.
jvanderbot 3y ago
Did anyone here read TFA? He was apparently shown to be a member of a cyber "gang", and expressed zero remorse. In this case, a judge basically has to do something. > A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated." The guy was already on bail for another hack: > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid. > They also stole directly from individuals through their cryptocurrency wallets. So: > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger. Hospital b/c of his severe autism. Ostensibly, what has to be done is rehabilitation. If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be out tomorrow.
- lemmetaste 3y ago
  [dead]
- sandworm101 3y ago
  >> If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be out tomorrow. Give the mental health pros a little credit. Getting out of a psych ward isn't as simple as saying you aren't going to do it again.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  The title of this post is manifestly wrong. Being locked up for an indefinite period is not the same as being locked up for life since he can be released at any time. But having said that, being locked up "at His Majesty's pleasure" as this is called is s scary sentence, since you can indeed end up in prison for you whole life if you do not have the support of the relevant doctors. The conspiracy theorists here should remember he was convicted by a jury and can appeal his sentence like anyone else. If that's insufficient come up with a better system.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Yes, I read the article. It's full of expectations. There is the expectation that someone should be punished severely for hacking a multi-billion dollar corporation. There is the expectation that that punishment will result in them just never hacking again. There is the expectation that a person who is arrested and threatened will respond with patience, and not with their own violence. There is the expectation that the well-known symptoms of Autism will just magically disappear whenever they conflict with the above expectations. If not, it's the fault of the person with Autism, not whoever set impossible expectations. --- All of these expectations have a common theme: they are leveled at this one person. He's a teenager with Autism! It doesn't matter: we have expectations, and they have to be met. Fuck that. I have expectations of my own. I expect that a justice system will actually try to meet people at their own level. I expect that a justice system will attempt to resolve mental health with treatment instead of violence. I expect that a multi-billion dollar company will respond to hacks with the only effective method there is: strengthening their own security. Anything else is just a waste of breath. My expectations are not being met. There's not a damn thing I can do about it, either: I'm not the one with billions of dollars at my disposal.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
NSA should pick him up, or maybe GCHQ.
- intunderflow 3y ago
  Ideally an organisation that isn't as morally bankrupt as these ones, perhaps something in the private sector.
- evilduck 3y ago
  Technical brilliance doesn't mean they're worth the risk and danger. Someone who's documented as physically violent is simply a liability to all other employees they're around. Even without the physical danger he presents intelligence orgs don't want people with broken moral compasses, they want people with unwavering moral compasses that align with their missions. If someone's just in it for fame or money some adversary is always going to be able to offer more of both.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
Life in prison for up to $10m in damages? At first I thought the number must be off by a factor of 10. I couldn’t help but see Dr Evil for a moment. These are at best property crimes, and while the sums are non trivial, sentencing children to indefinite imprisonment for a nonviolent crime against a megacorp is unconscionable.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  > against a megacorp That's the only reason he's punished. A lot more than 10M gets stolen regularly across various online scams but nothing gets done about those since they primarily target the common man and not a large, culturally-relevant company (I'd argue his targeting of BT/EE has a lot of influence in the outcome).
- TriangleEdge 3y ago
  Seem to me like the prosecution is irrationally scared of something they don't understand. When personal data is leaked, no one gives a shit. I got downvoted to smithereens for commenting on HN that I thought the post about Steve Wozniac being in the hospital was perverted. But if you leak something from a business, then life in prison? People value their life at about $10m. There's a video I found interesting on a YT channel called practical engineering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbaVdge7kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbaVdge7kU.
- golergka 3y ago
  No, not life in prison. Detention in a psychiatric hospital for an autistic person who is violently attacking other people. > dozens of reports of injury or property damage
  - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
    "Reports", not evidence.
  - zymhan 3y ago
    "indefinite detention" as well, meaning the duration is not defined, but it's "infinite detention". However, the article was definitely updated at some point, as others in the thread have pointed out. I read it earlier today and it did state life in detention. That is certainly not helping the discussion out, unfortunately.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
There is an expectation here that this person will react to being arrested and imprisoned with patience; yet patience is not expected from literally anyone else involved. It's abundantly clear that he is not being punished for harming people. He is being punished for not playing along. "Refusing to play along" is one of the most well known symptoms of Autism. This person is being punished for neurodivergence. I'm not even remotely OK with that.
- subtra3t 3y ago
  [flagged]
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > yet patience is not expected from literally anyone else involved. Can you explain? The whole process has seemed pretty patient on all sides. This wasn't some overnight decision. I truly don't understand what you're trying to say, or how "patience" is relevant here at all.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    Patience isn't just about time. Sure they were willing to wait, but what were they waiting for? The result was pretty clear from the beginning.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      I still don't know what any of that means. Then what is patience about? Who is "they"? What does it matter if people can guess at an outcome based on prior experience? I still don't know what you mean by "patience" and I still don't know what relevance it has here.
      - thomastjeffery 3y ago
        By "they", I mean everyone in this story except the defendant. I mean the justice system itself. "They" should be held to a high standard of expectations.
nicklecompte 3y ago
BBC's actual headline: "Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite hospital order" The editorialized reframing of the headline is a bit subtle but still incredibly dishonest. An indefinite psychiatric order is simply not the same as a life sentence.
- switch007 3y ago
  The BBC regularly updates headlines after publication (A/B testing for clicks) so it's possible it was the BBC, not the poster.
  - dang 3y ago
    Updated now. Thanks for catching this.
    - switch007 3y ago
      No worries. It’s so common that the UK sub on reddit has a bot or something to tag the submission as an altered headline…!
  - nicklecompte 3y ago
    Wow - I checked the Internet Archive and you are correct, the "sentenced to life in hospital prison" headline was used when the article was originally published. I stopped reading BBC a while ago because of their sloppy standards but this is unusually bad. FWIW in this case I would suppose the BBC online editor was careless and fixed their mistake, versus "A/B testing for clicks" generally. If it was A/B testing, the "A" headline went too far: there's a fine line between clickbait and outright lying.
    - omoikane 3y ago
      The British way of saying this is "being economical with the truth". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economical_with_the_truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economical_with_the_truth
    - 3y ago
dbeardsl 3y ago
I would say he's not in trouble for gaining access to systems, it's for extortion: > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  This is exactly the issue (plus the stalking and the paying employees for inside access) He's not a "grey hat", he was actively extorting those orgs
CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
Seemingly this individual is highly skilled (in technology) yet managed to fail at opsec. Anyone know how police managed to find/grab him?
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  It doesn't look like any of these even tried opsec - which isn't surprising because such crimes committed against individuals or small companies effectively became decriminalized in the UK so opsec would just be a waste of time. Their mistake was to think that embarrassing the establishment by breaching high-profile (Nvidia, etc), culturally-relevant companies (BT/EE) would be met with similar inaction. Also, with regards to skill, keep in mind that the establishment has a huge interest in making the hacks sound much more advanced than they really were to minimize the embarrassment of the affected companies. It would look really bad if it was widely known that these companies were pwned with nothing more than basic phishing, bribery and social engineering, something anyone can do.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
The sentence doesn't seem just. Why not just restrict him from electronic devices like what happened to ZeroCool? Surely there are better solutions that putting him in a psych ward for life or until he is 'cured'.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick and a a phone to commit another major breach while out on bail. Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking if he was released again. He wasn’t sentenced as such. He was determined to be mentally unfit, and put under confined treatment until he no longer poses a threat.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick and a a phone to commit another major breach while out on bail. Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking if he was released again. I did RTFA. I'm saying he could have been denied access to any electronic devices without supervision, which I think would be a better alternative.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - miki123211 3y ago
      define "electronic devices." What about credit cards? aTMs? Self-service checkouts? PIN pads (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by card)? Ticket machines and turnstiles? cars? radios? TVS? All of these sound pretty harmless and are necessary to have a life these days, but he did demonstrate that he can use a TV for hacking.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        > define "electronic devices." Smartphones and computers, anything with a keyboard and internet connection, and sufficient freedom to go anywhere eon the internet from the device. > (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by card I mean those are in every country. PINs are not always needed for credit card purchases but they are for debit card purchases. > but he did demonstrate that he can use a TV for hacking. A smart TV in conjunction with a phone and a firestick. No reason he couldn't have a dumb TV.
mk_stjames 3y ago
I'd really like to hear more about the type of exploits here. Like, what level- Are we saying this kid is so brilliant he is writing zero-days for getting into corporate networks or if this a case of a guy in a good script-kiddie type group running phishing deals where they fire off 100000 emails a day and wait for someone to give up their logic credentials. Because if it is the former it's really hard for me to understand how that is still even possible in this day and age. Autism, brilliance, or whatever... a 17 year old breaking into systems like they are as exploitable as early 90's systems sounds just insane to me.
- funshed 3y ago
  It says does it not, social engineering. Getting access to there discord, etc.. A skill in itself but not 0day or anything.
  - mk_stjames 3y ago
    It says "He broke into the company's internal Slack messaging system ". It does seem likely their approach is something along the lines of phishing or, given some of the other notes in the article, a combination of social engineering or stalking and blackmail... I have a feeling a lot of these hacker groups that are heard about do very little code exploitation. I think a lot of it is: find info on employees of a company, maybe find their old social media accounts, maybe find some stuff they might not want their coworkers to ever know about or their spouses etc. And then harass and blackmail the employees for a way in. If the news agencies were better at reporting, I think a lot of people would see these type of 'hackers' as less 'ooooh brilliant genius child like in the movies' and more 'straight up criminal harasser with no more skill than any normal software developer'.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      > If the news agencies were better at reporting The problem is that reporting the truth - "socially-awkward teens hacked their way into large companies by manipulating their idiot employees and exploiting lax security policies" would force many powerful people into answering uncomfortable questions and expose incompetence at many levels. Keep in mind that at least one of the hacked companies (BT - British Telecom) is culturally relevant in the UK and sadly it is mostly considered as trusted and competent by the general non-technical population. Hell, they've even got a cybersecurity arm: https://www.globalservices.bt.com/en/solutions/security https://www.globalservices.bt.com/en/solutions/security It would be really inconvenient if it became common knowledge that all this perceived trust & competence was nothing more than smoke & mirrors and that some kids can blow right through it. Therefore, there's a vested interest all the way up from the government to make the hack more sophisticated than it really is and the hacker a meaner monster than he is. That's also the reason behind the disproportionate sentence, despite similar phishing/social engineering/stalking crimes against the layman not being prosecuted at all.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
roomey 3y ago
(posted on other thread) A no doubt gifted person who was probably put through torture (as they would experience it) in a prison, now locked away for life because they lashed out. Big clap for all the big brains there who failed this guy.
whalesalad 3y ago
Absolutely monumental waste of talent. Reminds me of how I got expelled from high school for "hacking" into their terrible infrastructure (without causing any damage whatsoever, other than to their pride). They threw the book at me. Threatened felonies. Were going on and on about how I will never vote, never be able to work as a postal worker etc. Get this kid into the right environment and he would probably be able to do great things.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  Now imagine you found leverage with your hack and you demanded $4M or else.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    [flagged]
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  Note the violence. This is a person that can't control themselves when things don't go their way.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    > dozens of reports of injury or property damage. Eh, this is not outside the realm of expectations for an autistic teenager. Anyone locked in a cage will lash out, especially if they have neurological issues. There is a way to harness this energy regardless.
    - networkchad 3y ago
      > There is a way to harness this energy regardless. Yeah, it is called prison. I don't care if someone is "autistic" or "shit-head asshole". If you are a violent son of a bitch, I have a concrete cage with bars to house you in.
      - 3y ago
pshirshov 3y ago
The sentence sound very... Soviet.
withinrafael 3y ago
Relevant sections 23 (discharge of patients) and 41 (restriction of discharge from hospital) of the Mental Health Act of 1983 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/41 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/41 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/23 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/23 I'm curious about the success (discharge) rate in these cases. With only yearly clinician reports to Secretary of State, and all the hands involved, things appear grim. Hope I'm wrong.
yieldcrv 3y ago
There should be a length of time attached. Even in the US “life” means a limited amount of time that can be stacked over and over again, and we would totally call that excessive for these crimes or lack of remorse. This is really foreign and sad what the UK is doing.
deadbabe 3y ago
Did he used to post here on hackernews?
matteoraso 3y ago
>Doctors deemed Kurtaj unfit to stand trial due to his acute autism The kid was able to join an international cybergang and hack into a multi-billion dollar corporation. That doesn't sound like somebody who's incapable of standing trial. The article also said that he was violent in custody, but it doesn't mention any form of violence when he was out on the streets. I'm not a lawyer (much less a British one), but an indefinite hospital order is way too severe for a non-violent crime. Hopefully he gets a retrial.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ametrau 3y ago
  I wonder how much of the nebulous “violent in custody” is true. This sounds like he’s being railroaded (like only the Brits can do) because some wealthy Americans are breathing down their necks.
isk517 3y ago
>>As well as hacking offences the boy was sentenced for what the judge described as "unpleasant and frightening pattern of stalking and harassment" of two young women. Bunch of people on here are defending him, please justify this for me.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  he's an 18 year old autistic kid - you've never made mistakes in your younger years? why are we so quick to dismiss an entire human life as worthless? people only learn when others are strong enough to teach them.
  - bithive123 3y ago
    No one's dismissing his life as worthless, they're just being clear-eyed about his behavior. It's one thing to be young and creep someone out because you're maladjusted and sexually frustrated. It's another to actually stalk and harass people and announce your intention to commit crimes. Your theory of learning is also opposite my experience; people only learn things when they decide to. Can you find any examples of someone really internalizing a lesson they didn't want to learn? From what I've read about this kid and his activities, this isn't some youthful prank that got blown out of proportion, the group he was part of was gleefully mocking and extorting their victims.
    - whalesalad 3y ago
      All of this can be rationalized. We all do dumb shit, and can learn to see things in a new light. What you say about learning has some truths but you need an externality to show you what you’re missing, to shift your viewpoint. You don’t go from rock bottom to sudden realization all on your own. A switch doesn’t flip in your mind. It comes from the outside world, not within. And a lot of folks are dismissing this persons life in the thread.
      - bithive123 3y ago
        I agree that people, including criminals, should be nurtured and given the opportunity to learn and grow. But all society can do is provide the conditions for growth while protecting itself from people who can't, won't, or haven't yet.
accrual 3y ago
> He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger, Southwark crown court heard on Thursday. For life, haha. Probably a few months at most. > Many young people wish to explore how technology works and what vulnerabilities exist. This can include learning to code, interacting with like-minded individuals online and experimenting with tools. Learning to code and experimenting is wayyyy beyond what topic OP is doing. Personally I don't really care. Rockstar has a grip on it. I'm proud of this fellow for finding and exploiting holes. Yes, he should have gone through proper channels. But he is also just a kid and likely don't understand responsible disclosure. The target person in this article should be educated and administered. They clearly have a lot of potential. Limiting them is not the way to go.
- hipadev23 3y ago
  There’s often no mechanism for responsible disclosure, and you put yourself at just as much risk doing so with good intentions. Best outcome is generally do nothing at all. Never any upside.
- polemic 3y ago
  [According to the article] He has acute autism, is violent in custody and expressed intent to continue comitting crimes. This isn't just "some kid with potential" – he will end up in prison sooner of later, which will be an especially hellish place for someone like that to be. I hope he gets the help he needs. Maybe courtesy of certain British spooky agencies.
  - lainga 3y ago
    > He has acute autism, is violent in custody... Are the two related? Or is his case autism and something is making him violent?
- Adamantish 3y ago
  You don't understand. Britain respects some basic rights for those considered dangerously bad, but not the "dangerously mad". I worked as a paper pusher in the UK's mental health appeal system. If they think the patient continues to present a risk of harm to others, there is no escape. It's extremely hard for a patient to convince others they're safe. Many stay in for many more decades than they would have done in prison. If they think his condition was so severe that it made the criminal decision for him, they might not ever be convinced he's stopped being a danger until his condition is cured. Given autism is not a curable mental disorder, this outcome is a bit of a scandal.
paulolc 3y ago
This would be a much better TV series script than that "The Good Doctor" crap. No offense to all the "The Good Doctor" fans. (We all have our own "crappy" stuff we like) Society would improve if we could turn these high skilled individuals into productive law abiding citizens without having to go through A Clockwork Orange kind of "reeducation".
- hooverd 3y ago
  Sounds like his court hearing was "I AM A HACKER! I AM A HACKER!!"
zingababba 3y ago
This dude ran doxbin for a bit. He actually ended up being doxed there himself (white) nearly a year ago. He's definitely a piece of work.
CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
He is a danger to crappy security and those that fear free thinkers like him. There ought to be laws against locking people like him up. Rockstar said it cost them thousands of hours to recover...they could have asked him, and it might have cost them orders of magnitude less. Rockstar has hired the wrong people, lol.
- TylerE 3y ago
  "The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody, with dozens of reports of injury or property damage." Not exactly "did nothing wrong".
  - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
    "Reports" is all they have. No evidence, only reports from a biased source (the prosecutors).
    - TylerE 3y ago
      By that standard what evidence would you ever accept? They almost certainly have video - prisons have cameras everywhere
      - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
        I would argue they certainly do not, otherwise they would use a more appropriate word than "reports". I certainly argee that there is no reason for them to not have video evidence. I am arguing that the apparant lack of video evidence in this case makes is especially apparant that the reports are fabricated.
  - softskunk 3y ago
    not exactly an unbiased or referenced report, either.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    I wouldn't take that at face value - like accusations of resisting arrest - and to the degree it's true, what kinds of injury and property damage, a scratch and a broken glass? If the violence was so horrible, has he been charged or convicted for it?
wolverine876 3y ago
Arion needs help, including care for his autism. What a painful, horrible way to live every day (effectively untreated autism). He's in this situation because he did not have proper help. What a nightmare for him. Clearly he has some drive that he satisfies by hacking. Good care will help him identify that drive and direct it toward something healthy. Where are his family? Has he been walking around with this illness, as a child, alone in the world? How heartbreaking. We've embraced contempt for humanity and human rights, and this is a result.
- sophyphreak 3y ago
  I'm going to say this as kindly as I can, though truthfully, I'm seething. I understand you're trying to be kind and empathetic. I feel for this dude too. But the way you're expressing your thoughts is hurtful, and I ask you to try to learn why. Here's a pretty good article from a mainstream website that talks about ableism and how expressing feelings of pity can be an expression of ableism. https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-ableism https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-ableism There is no such thing as "untreated autism" because Autism is not a disease. We do need assistance, but much more of what we need--according to modern science--is acceptance and inclusion. Please try to educate yourself on the dangers of ableism, and how it can and does harm us.
  - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
    I half agree with you. However, your argument that this is ableism is ridiculous. And you almost proved that yourself by stating that autism is not a disease. I would go a step further and say that it is not a disability, just a something that makes you think differently from the "normal" (which I would argue requires all free thought to be hammered out of you at a young age).
    - sophyphreak 3y ago
      I think it's pretty hasty to say it's ridiculous. It's pretty common to use the word "ableism" in Autistic self-advocacy circles and to say that Autism is a disability without being a disease. (This is all standard "social model of disability" stuff that way predates the Autism self-advocacy movement.) I don't really want to go out of my way to flesh this out further because just googling around and reading Wikipedia articles will be way better than whatever else I say in a few sentences, but suffice it to say, if people can discriminate against Autistic people for being who they are, what should we call that? I'm partial to "neurotypicalism" but that's not the common term. Ableism is much more common. Anyway, please Google the social model of disability.
underseacables 3y ago
For life?! This is ridiculous. It's like Kevin Mitnick in solitary confinement all over again. Because of a video game?
- kmlx 3y ago
  i think it’s because he was running an extortion group: https://www.tenable.com/blog/brazen-unsophisticated-and-illogical-understanding-the-lapsus-extortion-group https://www.tenable.com/blog/brazen-unsophisticated-and-illo...
alephnerd 3y ago
The amount of stereotyping of Autism here is horrible. Perpetrating the trope of the "Idiot Savant" or "Helpless Amorality" undercuts the millions of neurodiverse people who haven't harassed, assaulted, or threatened people.
RecycledEle 3y ago
We aspies have no respect for lies, so we can not be allowed into court rooms (cult rooms?)
wg0 3y ago
We should stop glamorizing criminal activities. Even if someone's door is wide open, any self respecting individual wouldn't step in and steal. The urge is always there and is natural. But everything natural isn't the right thing to do. Besides that, article has no technical hints as to why that happened. Rockstar level of IT environment is not that misconfigured I suppose or there are some inherent design flawa Internet protocol suite that can be exploited with a Firestick?
raylad 3y ago
Indefinite hospital stay order for hacking? I had to read the article 3 or 4 times before I was able to understand that this was in the UK, not in a 3rd world dictatorship.
bjanjotung 3y ago
This guy is probably the best thing that happened to Nvidia. Opened our eyes on extremely poor security policies and processes.
footlose_3815 3y ago
Call me skeptical but I’m reminded of Murdoch from the A team.
sophyphreak 3y ago
"A riot is the language of the unheard." -MLK Jr.
kar5pt 3y ago
What bothers me about this isn't that he was committed to a "hospital" (read: jail for mentally ill people). What bothers me is that the sentence is indefinite. The judge can give him a life sentence for what wouldn't normally justify a life sentence because he's calling it "medicine". The hospital commitment shouldn't be able to last longer than the sentence he would receive if he was neurotypical.
edvardalberte 3y ago
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GTALEAKSV5 3y ago
[flagged]
wagwan 3y ago
Hackcoperation @ g mail com is great to work with! He’s super responsive and very fast and efficient. Any issue I have requested of him to help with he has always been very prompt and professional. I have used him for several website hacking issues and event platform updates and will continue to use him from now on. Thanks
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theresaheger0 3y ago
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178 points by ode 3y ago

CelesteDvorak 3y ago

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Racing0461 3y ago

> indefinite hospital order does this actually mean life?

htk 3y ago
You can try reading the article: "He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger."
- fermentation 3y ago
  They've got a long life ahead of them. Surely with actual care they would be released at some point right?
  - fb03 3y ago
    His life is in someone else's hands now, and will be for as long as the government wants. He might be fully reabilitated and regret his actions and they can still write him off as completely nuts with a simple signature in a document - and no one will put the doctor's statement through scrutiny.

Der_Einzige 3y ago

Stuff like this is why I’m glad Ken Kessey’s “one flew over the cuckoos nest” become popular and helped remove government mental hospitals from being a serious consideration in the USA. This kid needs to be cultivated, not institutionalized. (Edit: never mind, seems he IS a menace to society)

A_Duck 3y ago
The headline glosses over "The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody with dozens of reports of injury or property damage."
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    Oh shit, okay his sentence makes sense. Somehow I missed this part of the article.
    - brvsft 3y ago
      Are you being facetious? Stalking and harassment alone wouldn't justify a life sentence.
  - CodesInChaos 3y ago
    Isn't that part talking about the 17 year old other member of lapsus$ who received the 18 month long Youth Rehabilitation Order?
  - loeg 3y ago
    That sentence is not talking about the headline hacker (Kurtaj).
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Custody is violence. Most people respond with patience, because they understand deescalation is their best move. This person has Autism. I think it's not a leap to conclude that he simply doesn't understand that deescalation is the right move. He may not even realize or totally comprehend that deescalation is an option! If you want to convince me this person is a menace to society, then talk about his behavior before being arrested. What did he do then? Oh, that's right, he shared video of an unreleased game... Why should I, or any other person feel threatened?

A_Duck 3y ago

> Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. Damn! Approaching https://xkcd.com/378/ https://xkcd.com/378/ ...

yegle 3y ago
If you have a phone with an SSH client, and access to a server, for many that's equivalent to having a full functioning PC for hacking purposes? If this is an Android phone with a rooted system (or even just a locked phone with Termux), you can even skip the SSH server. Not saying this is unimpressive though.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago

> The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. >Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. This sounds too fantastical to be true. This guy is obviously brilliant, disappointing that he squandered his opportunities.

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gnfargbl 3y ago
> This sounds too fantastical to be true. Use Firestick as RDP/VNC client, use mobile phone for internet, obtain keyboard from Amazon Shopping, remote into a VM, proceed as usual?
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  Yeah unfortunately rather obvious considering Fire Sticks run android and allow you to enable remote ADB.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Like sure, it is technically possible he runs termux, has all of his hacking tools available, and is amazingly good with an onscreen keyboard. That being said, if this were an episode of CSI, I would be rolling my eyes.
  - rainonmoon 3y ago
    > has all of his hacking tools available So there's this wonderful program called wget.
  - solumunus 3y ago
    It really doesn’t sound that crazy. Like, almost everyone on this forum is capable of doing this from a technical perspective, right? Almost none of us would have the desire to do this, but we could figure it out if we did…

kreddor 3y ago

> Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. That's quite a feat. > Rockstar Games alone told the court that the hack cost it $5m to recover from plus thousands of hours of staff time. Either the kid is a genius or Rockstar really don't value their security much. Or maybe a bit of both?

jvanderbot 3y ago
From TFA, and given prior hacks, he's very skilled.
- imglorp 3y ago
  Someone should hire him as a white hat. Maybe they have some kind of custodial guardianship where the employer can monitor him staying clean.
  - ungamedplayer 3y ago
    No company will do this because you can hire competent, non violent white hat hackers that don't need monitoring.
  - CaptainOfCoit 3y ago
    It's tough though, how do you know that they won't use those skills against you? The individual seems relatively unstable and violent, even saying during a sentencing hearing that they'll continue to do illegal breaches whenever they can. Would be great to have them on the "good" side, but would probably take a lot of energy and resources as well. Hopefully this story will have a somewhat happy ending, because it seems to not end yet.
    - Freak_NL 3y ago
      He'd need a dedicated handler, and even then judging from the article's portrayal he seems like a hopelessly unmanageable type. He'd fit in with a modern-day A-team, come to think of it.

fxtentacle 3y ago

It concluded that Lapsus$ "made clear just how easy it was for its members (juveniles, in some instances) to infiltrate well-defended organisations". To me, that sounds more like they were not well-defended ...

lemmetaste 3y ago
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hypeatei 3y ago
This is typical writing from people who aren't familiar with technology. Could this kid be a genius? Maybe. It's more likely he found exploits like the ones we're seeing on the front page today[0]. It's not super impressive or surprising, to me at least. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38720544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38720544
- raverbashing 3y ago
  A lot of "exploits" are simply a certain level of trust that normal people have in each other I'd rather have him out than live in an absolute zero trust environment

Nextgrid 3y ago

Life in prison for non-violent crime clearly sounds like revenge and sour grapes. The big guys clearly don't appreciate having their insecurity being exposed this way (keep in mind none of these hacks required any significant technical skills), and too many people would lose face. Something had to be done, so here it is. The disparity of this punishment compared to what is usually given out for similar crimes (in the vast majority nothing as it doesn't even get investigated) suggests there is definitely some "saving face" motivation behind this sentence.

m3kw9 3y ago
Conditional life sentence, he can be freed if docs clear him
- lemmetaste 3y ago
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qeternity 3y ago
It’s not life in prison. He’s being confined to a mental institution due to severe autism. It’s unlikely that he can be rehabilitated and would remain a cyber security threat to society if released in the future. This is hardly revenge.
- lemmetaste 3y ago
  [dead]
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  This guy is as much of a "cyber security threat" as your typical socially-awkward gamer teenager, of which we have plenty of. Every internet-connected server out there constantly gets probed by bots/tools often operated by similar people and nothing is ever done about it. This guy's crime wasn't that he was hacking/phishing/stalking or the general obnoxious behavior that often comes with this kind of person - this is effectively decriminalized in the UK anyway, as long as the victim isn't a big, culturally-relevant company. Financially-motivated scammers and crime rings take advantage of this. This guy's crime is that he embarrassed the establishment, so he has to be painted a much scarier monster than he really is and made an example of, since the truth that most technically-inclined, socially-awkward teenagers would be equally capable of such hacking would be hard to accept and put into question the competence of the affected companies.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

From 'Free Kevin' to 'Free Kurtaj'

beepboopboop 3y ago
Not even close

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seattle_spring 3y ago

Seems reasonable to me. Glad there aren't any comments yet saying "oh gosh it was just a video game company, those are a scourge anyway on family morals!"

mettamage 3y ago
Not to me, it's a slippery slope. Want to give someone a life sentence? Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label on them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for a crime that would get like 5 years in prison. The point is not the details (I'm obviously not a laywer or anything remotely related to that), the point is that it seems to be a slippery slope.
- neilkk 3y ago
  Did you read the article?
- theshackleford 3y ago
  > Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label on them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for a crime that would get like 5 years in prison. Good thing that’s not what happened then I guess.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    The article specifically says: > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger. So he's confined for life. Confinement is confinement, whether it's a prison or hospital. This definitely seems like a case where the government found a "backdoor" to allow them to get away with confining someone for life, even though they probably couldn't do through the normal criminal justice system because the punishment doesn't suit the crime.
    - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      > So he's confined for life. > unless doctors deem him no longer a danger It's down to him and whether the institution he's in can do anything for him.

sbecker 3y ago

Sounds like a great hire for the CIA or MI6

coolspot 3y ago
Literally weaponized autism. Hacking Rockstar using FireTV stick, lol.

BugsJustFindMe 3y ago

For anyone who skips the article and comes straight to the comments, this is not because of the hacking. This is because of (alleged) violence and expressed eagerness to return to cybercrime. > The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody with dozens of reports of injury or property damage. > A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated." ... The details are absolutely wild too. I mean... > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone. Holy shit, dude. This is the sort of thing they make movies about. I wonder how much of it is true.

ametrau 3y ago
What a cool kid honestly.

jvanderbot 3y ago

Did anyone here read TFA? He was apparently shown to be a member of a cyber "gang", and expressed zero remorse. In this case, a judge basically has to do something. > A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated." The guy was already on bail for another hack: > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid. > They also stole directly from individuals through their cryptocurrency wallets. So: > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger. Hospital b/c of his severe autism. Ostensibly, what has to be done is rehabilitation. If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be out tomorrow.

lemmetaste 3y ago
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sandworm101 3y ago
>> If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be out tomorrow. Give the mental health pros a little credit. Getting out of a psych ward isn't as simple as saying you aren't going to do it again.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
The title of this post is manifestly wrong. Being locked up for an indefinite period is not the same as being locked up for life since he can be released at any time. But having said that, being locked up "at His Majesty's pleasure" as this is called is s scary sentence, since you can indeed end up in prison for you whole life if you do not have the support of the relevant doctors. The conspiracy theorists here should remember he was convicted by a jury and can appeal his sentence like anyone else. If that's insufficient come up with a better system.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
Yes, I read the article. It's full of expectations. There is the expectation that someone should be punished severely for hacking a multi-billion dollar corporation. There is the expectation that that punishment will result in them just never hacking again. There is the expectation that a person who is arrested and threatened will respond with patience, and not with their own violence. There is the expectation that the well-known symptoms of Autism will just magically disappear whenever they conflict with the above expectations. If not, it's the fault of the person with Autism, not whoever set impossible expectations. --- All of these expectations have a common theme: they are leveled at this one person. He's a teenager with Autism! It doesn't matter: we have expectations, and they have to be met. Fuck that. I have expectations of my own. I expect that a justice system will actually try to meet people at their own level. I expect that a justice system will attempt to resolve mental health with treatment instead of violence. I expect that a multi-billion dollar company will respond to hacks with the only effective method there is: strengthening their own security. Anything else is just a waste of breath. My expectations are not being met. There's not a damn thing I can do about it, either: I'm not the one with billions of dollars at my disposal.

hnthrowaway0328 3y ago

NSA should pick him up, or maybe GCHQ.

intunderflow 3y ago
Ideally an organisation that isn't as morally bankrupt as these ones, perhaps something in the private sector.
evilduck 3y ago
Technical brilliance doesn't mean they're worth the risk and danger. Someone who's documented as physically violent is simply a liability to all other employees they're around. Even without the physical danger he presents intelligence orgs don't want people with broken moral compasses, they want people with unwavering moral compasses that align with their missions. If someone's just in it for fame or money some adversary is always going to be able to offer more of both.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Life in prison for up to $10m in damages? At first I thought the number must be off by a factor of 10. I couldn’t help but see Dr Evil for a moment. These are at best property crimes, and while the sums are non trivial, sentencing children to indefinite imprisonment for a nonviolent crime against a megacorp is unconscionable.

Nextgrid 3y ago
> against a megacorp That's the only reason he's punished. A lot more than 10M gets stolen regularly across various online scams but nothing gets done about those since they primarily target the common man and not a large, culturally-relevant company (I'd argue his targeting of BT/EE has a lot of influence in the outcome).
TriangleEdge 3y ago
Seem to me like the prosecution is irrationally scared of something they don't understand. When personal data is leaked, no one gives a shit. I got downvoted to smithereens for commenting on HN that I thought the post about Steve Wozniac being in the hospital was perverted. But if you leak something from a business, then life in prison? People value their life at about $10m. There's a video I found interesting on a YT channel called practical engineering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbaVdge7kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbaVdge7kU.
golergka 3y ago
No, not life in prison. Detention in a psychiatric hospital for an autistic person who is violently attacking other people. > dozens of reports of injury or property damage
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
  "Reports", not evidence.
- zymhan 3y ago
  "indefinite detention" as well, meaning the duration is not defined, but it's "infinite detention". However, the article was definitely updated at some point, as others in the thread have pointed out. I read it earlier today and it did state life in detention. That is certainly not helping the discussion out, unfortunately.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

There is an expectation here that this person will react to being arrested and imprisoned with patience; yet patience is not expected from literally anyone else involved. It's abundantly clear that he is not being punished for harming people. He is being punished for not playing along. "Refusing to play along" is one of the most well known symptoms of Autism. This person is being punished for neurodivergence. I'm not even remotely OK with that.

subtra3t 3y ago
[flagged]
crazygringo 3y ago
> yet patience is not expected from literally anyone else involved. Can you explain? The whole process has seemed pretty patient on all sides. This wasn't some overnight decision. I truly don't understand what you're trying to say, or how "patience" is relevant here at all.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Patience isn't just about time. Sure they were willing to wait, but what were they waiting for? The result was pretty clear from the beginning.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    I still don't know what any of that means. Then what is patience about? Who is "they"? What does it matter if people can guess at an outcome based on prior experience? I still don't know what you mean by "patience" and I still don't know what relevance it has here.
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      By "they", I mean everyone in this story except the defendant. I mean the justice system itself. "They" should be held to a high standard of expectations.

nicklecompte 3y ago

BBC's actual headline: "Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite hospital order" The editorialized reframing of the headline is a bit subtle but still incredibly dishonest. An indefinite psychiatric order is simply not the same as a life sentence.

switch007 3y ago
The BBC regularly updates headlines after publication (A/B testing for clicks) so it's possible it was the BBC, not the poster.
- dang 3y ago
  Updated now. Thanks for catching this.
  - switch007 3y ago
    No worries. It’s so common that the UK sub on reddit has a bot or something to tag the submission as an altered headline…!
- nicklecompte 3y ago
  Wow - I checked the Internet Archive and you are correct, the "sentenced to life in hospital prison" headline was used when the article was originally published. I stopped reading BBC a while ago because of their sloppy standards but this is unusually bad. FWIW in this case I would suppose the BBC online editor was careless and fixed their mistake, versus "A/B testing for clicks" generally. If it was A/B testing, the "A" headline went too far: there's a fine line between clickbait and outright lying.
  - omoikane 3y ago
    The British way of saying this is "being economical with the truth". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economical_with_the_truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economical_with_the_truth
  - 3y ago

dbeardsl 3y ago

I would say he's not in trouble for gaining access to systems, it's for extortion: > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid.

raverbashing 3y ago
This is exactly the issue (plus the stalking and the paying employees for inside access) He's not a "grey hat", he was actively extorting those orgs

CaptainOfCoit 3y ago

Seemingly this individual is highly skilled (in technology) yet managed to fail at opsec. Anyone know how police managed to find/grab him?

Nextgrid 3y ago
It doesn't look like any of these even tried opsec - which isn't surprising because such crimes committed against individuals or small companies effectively became decriminalized in the UK so opsec would just be a waste of time. Their mistake was to think that embarrassing the establishment by breaching high-profile (Nvidia, etc), culturally-relevant companies (BT/EE) would be met with similar inaction. Also, with regards to skill, keep in mind that the establishment has a huge interest in making the hacks sound much more advanced than they really were to minimize the embarrassment of the affected companies. It would look really bad if it was widely known that these companies were pwned with nothing more than basic phishing, bribery and social engineering, something anyone can do.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

The sentence doesn't seem just. Why not just restrict him from electronic devices like what happened to ZeroCool? Surely there are better solutions that putting him in a psych ward for life or until he is 'cured'.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick and a a phone to commit another major breach while out on bail. Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking if he was released again. He wasn’t sentenced as such. He was determined to be mentally unfit, and put under confined treatment until he no longer poses a threat.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick and a a phone to commit another major breach while out on bail. Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking if he was released again. I did RTFA. I'm saying he could have been denied access to any electronic devices without supervision, which I think would be a better alternative.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - miki123211 3y ago
    define "electronic devices." What about credit cards? aTMs? Self-service checkouts? PIN pads (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by card)? Ticket machines and turnstiles? cars? radios? TVS? All of these sound pretty harmless and are necessary to have a life these days, but he did demonstrate that he can use a TV for hacking.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      > define "electronic devices." Smartphones and computers, anything with a keyboard and internet connection, and sufficient freedom to go anywhere eon the internet from the device. > (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by card I mean those are in every country. PINs are not always needed for credit card purchases but they are for debit card purchases. > but he did demonstrate that he can use a TV for hacking. A smart TV in conjunction with a phone and a firestick. No reason he couldn't have a dumb TV.

mk_stjames 3y ago

I'd really like to hear more about the type of exploits here. Like, what level- Are we saying this kid is so brilliant he is writing zero-days for getting into corporate networks or if this a case of a guy in a good script-kiddie type group running phishing deals where they fire off 100000 emails a day and wait for someone to give up their logic credentials. Because if it is the former it's really hard for me to understand how that is still even possible in this day and age. Autism, brilliance, or whatever... a 17 year old breaking into systems like they are as exploitable as early 90's systems sounds just insane to me.

funshed 3y ago
It says does it not, social engineering. Getting access to there discord, etc.. A skill in itself but not 0day or anything.
- mk_stjames 3y ago
  It says "He broke into the company's internal Slack messaging system ". It does seem likely their approach is something along the lines of phishing or, given some of the other notes in the article, a combination of social engineering or stalking and blackmail... I have a feeling a lot of these hacker groups that are heard about do very little code exploitation. I think a lot of it is: find info on employees of a company, maybe find their old social media accounts, maybe find some stuff they might not want their coworkers to ever know about or their spouses etc. And then harass and blackmail the employees for a way in. If the news agencies were better at reporting, I think a lot of people would see these type of 'hackers' as less 'ooooh brilliant genius child like in the movies' and more 'straight up criminal harasser with no more skill than any normal software developer'.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    > If the news agencies were better at reporting The problem is that reporting the truth - "socially-awkward teens hacked their way into large companies by manipulating their idiot employees and exploiting lax security policies" would force many powerful people into answering uncomfortable questions and expose incompetence at many levels. Keep in mind that at least one of the hacked companies (BT - British Telecom) is culturally relevant in the UK and sadly it is mostly considered as trusted and competent by the general non-technical population. Hell, they've even got a cybersecurity arm: https://www.globalservices.bt.com/en/solutions/security https://www.globalservices.bt.com/en/solutions/security It would be really inconvenient if it became common knowledge that all this perceived trust & competence was nothing more than smoke & mirrors and that some kids can blow right through it. Therefore, there's a vested interest all the way up from the government to make the hack more sophisticated than it really is and the hacker a meaner monster than he is. That's also the reason behind the disproportionate sentence, despite similar phishing/social engineering/stalking crimes against the layman not being prosecuted at all.

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roomey 3y ago

(posted on other thread) A no doubt gifted person who was probably put through torture (as they would experience it) in a prison, now locked away for life because they lashed out. Big clap for all the big brains there who failed this guy.

whalesalad 3y ago

Absolutely monumental waste of talent. Reminds me of how I got expelled from high school for "hacking" into their terrible infrastructure (without causing any damage whatsoever, other than to their pride). They threw the book at me. Threatened felonies. Were going on and on about how I will never vote, never be able to work as a postal worker etc. Get this kid into the right environment and he would probably be able to do great things.

threatofrain 3y ago
Now imagine you found leverage with your hack and you demanded $4M or else.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  [flagged]
LorenPechtel 3y ago
Note the violence. This is a person that can't control themselves when things don't go their way.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  > dozens of reports of injury or property damage. Eh, this is not outside the realm of expectations for an autistic teenager. Anyone locked in a cage will lash out, especially if they have neurological issues. There is a way to harness this energy regardless.
  - networkchad 3y ago
    > There is a way to harness this energy regardless. Yeah, it is called prison. I don't care if someone is "autistic" or "shit-head asshole". If you are a violent son of a bitch, I have a concrete cage with bars to house you in.
    - 3y ago

pshirshov 3y ago

The sentence sound very... Soviet.

withinrafael 3y ago

Relevant sections 23 (discharge of patients) and 41 (restriction of discharge from hospital) of the Mental Health Act of 1983 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/41 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/41 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/23 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/23 I'm curious about the success (discharge) rate in these cases. With only yearly clinician reports to Secretary of State, and all the hands involved, things appear grim. Hope I'm wrong.

yieldcrv 3y ago

There should be a length of time attached. Even in the US “life” means a limited amount of time that can be stacked over and over again, and we would totally call that excessive for these crimes or lack of remorse. This is really foreign and sad what the UK is doing.

deadbabe 3y ago

Did he used to post here on hackernews?

matteoraso 3y ago

>Doctors deemed Kurtaj unfit to stand trial due to his acute autism The kid was able to join an international cybergang and hack into a multi-billion dollar corporation. That doesn't sound like somebody who's incapable of standing trial. The article also said that he was violent in custody, but it doesn't mention any form of violence when he was out on the streets. I'm not a lawyer (much less a British one), but an indefinite hospital order is way too severe for a non-violent crime. Hopefully he gets a retrial.

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ametrau 3y ago
I wonder how much of the nebulous “violent in custody” is true. This sounds like he’s being railroaded (like only the Brits can do) because some wealthy Americans are breathing down their necks.

isk517 3y ago

>>As well as hacking offences the boy was sentenced for what the judge described as "unpleasant and frightening pattern of stalking and harassment" of two young women. Bunch of people on here are defending him, please justify this for me.

whalesalad 3y ago
he's an 18 year old autistic kid - you've never made mistakes in your younger years? why are we so quick to dismiss an entire human life as worthless? people only learn when others are strong enough to teach them.
- bithive123 3y ago
  No one's dismissing his life as worthless, they're just being clear-eyed about his behavior. It's one thing to be young and creep someone out because you're maladjusted and sexually frustrated. It's another to actually stalk and harass people and announce your intention to commit crimes. Your theory of learning is also opposite my experience; people only learn things when they decide to. Can you find any examples of someone really internalizing a lesson they didn't want to learn? From what I've read about this kid and his activities, this isn't some youthful prank that got blown out of proportion, the group he was part of was gleefully mocking and extorting their victims.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    All of this can be rationalized. We all do dumb shit, and can learn to see things in a new light. What you say about learning has some truths but you need an externality to show you what you’re missing, to shift your viewpoint. You don’t go from rock bottom to sudden realization all on your own. A switch doesn’t flip in your mind. It comes from the outside world, not within. And a lot of folks are dismissing this persons life in the thread.
    - bithive123 3y ago
      I agree that people, including criminals, should be nurtured and given the opportunity to learn and grow. But all society can do is provide the conditions for growth while protecting itself from people who can't, won't, or haven't yet.

accrual 3y ago

> He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors deem him no longer a danger, Southwark crown court heard on Thursday. For life, haha. Probably a few months at most. > Many young people wish to explore how technology works and what vulnerabilities exist. This can include learning to code, interacting with like-minded individuals online and experimenting with tools. Learning to code and experimenting is wayyyy beyond what topic OP is doing. Personally I don't really care. Rockstar has a grip on it. I'm proud of this fellow for finding and exploiting holes. Yes, he should have gone through proper channels. But he is also just a kid and likely don't understand responsible disclosure. The target person in this article should be educated and administered. They clearly have a lot of potential. Limiting them is not the way to go.

hipadev23 3y ago
There’s often no mechanism for responsible disclosure, and you put yourself at just as much risk doing so with good intentions. Best outcome is generally do nothing at all. Never any upside.
polemic 3y ago
[According to the article] He has acute autism, is violent in custody and expressed intent to continue comitting crimes. This isn't just "some kid with potential" – he will end up in prison sooner of later, which will be an especially hellish place for someone like that to be. I hope he gets the help he needs. Maybe courtesy of certain British spooky agencies.
- lainga 3y ago
  > He has acute autism, is violent in custody... Are the two related? Or is his case autism and something is making him violent?
Adamantish 3y ago
You don't understand. Britain respects some basic rights for those considered dangerously bad, but not the "dangerously mad". I worked as a paper pusher in the UK's mental health appeal system. If they think the patient continues to present a risk of harm to others, there is no escape. It's extremely hard for a patient to convince others they're safe. Many stay in for many more decades than they would have done in prison. If they think his condition was so severe that it made the criminal decision for him, they might not ever be convinced he's stopped being a danger until his condition is cured. Given autism is not a curable mental disorder, this outcome is a bit of a scandal.

paulolc 3y ago

This would be a much better TV series script than that "The Good Doctor" crap. No offense to all the "The Good Doctor" fans. (We all have our own "crappy" stuff we like) Society would improve if we could turn these high skilled individuals into productive law abiding citizens without having to go through A Clockwork Orange kind of "reeducation".

hooverd 3y ago
Sounds like his court hearing was "I AM A HACKER! I AM A HACKER!!"

zingababba 3y ago

This dude ran doxbin for a bit. He actually ended up being doxed there himself (white) nearly a year ago. He's definitely a piece of work.

CrzyLngPwd 3y ago

He is a danger to crappy security and those that fear free thinkers like him. There ought to be laws against locking people like him up. Rockstar said it cost them thousands of hours to recover...they could have asked him, and it might have cost them orders of magnitude less. Rockstar has hired the wrong people, lol.

TylerE 3y ago
"The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody, with dozens of reports of injury or property damage." Not exactly "did nothing wrong".
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
  "Reports" is all they have. No evidence, only reports from a biased source (the prosecutors).
  - TylerE 3y ago
    By that standard what evidence would you ever accept? They almost certainly have video - prisons have cameras everywhere
    - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
      I would argue they certainly do not, otherwise they would use a more appropriate word than "reports". I certainly argee that there is no reason for them to not have video evidence. I am arguing that the apparant lack of video evidence in this case makes is especially apparant that the reports are fabricated.
- softskunk 3y ago
  not exactly an unbiased or referenced report, either.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  I wouldn't take that at face value - like accusations of resisting arrest - and to the degree it's true, what kinds of injury and property damage, a scratch and a broken glass? If the violence was so horrible, has he been charged or convicted for it?

wolverine876 3y ago

Arion needs help, including care for his autism. What a painful, horrible way to live every day (effectively untreated autism). He's in this situation because he did not have proper help. What a nightmare for him. Clearly he has some drive that he satisfies by hacking. Good care will help him identify that drive and direct it toward something healthy. Where are his family? Has he been walking around with this illness, as a child, alone in the world? How heartbreaking. We've embraced contempt for humanity and human rights, and this is a result.

sophyphreak 3y ago
I'm going to say this as kindly as I can, though truthfully, I'm seething. I understand you're trying to be kind and empathetic. I feel for this dude too. But the way you're expressing your thoughts is hurtful, and I ask you to try to learn why. Here's a pretty good article from a mainstream website that talks about ableism and how expressing feelings of pity can be an expression of ableism. https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-ableism https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-ableism There is no such thing as "untreated autism" because Autism is not a disease. We do need assistance, but much more of what we need--according to modern science--is acceptance and inclusion. Please try to educate yourself on the dangers of ableism, and how it can and does harm us.
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
  I half agree with you. However, your argument that this is ableism is ridiculous. And you almost proved that yourself by stating that autism is not a disease. I would go a step further and say that it is not a disability, just a something that makes you think differently from the "normal" (which I would argue requires all free thought to be hammered out of you at a young age).
  - sophyphreak 3y ago
    I think it's pretty hasty to say it's ridiculous. It's pretty common to use the word "ableism" in Autistic self-advocacy circles and to say that Autism is a disability without being a disease. (This is all standard "social model of disability" stuff that way predates the Autism self-advocacy movement.) I don't really want to go out of my way to flesh this out further because just googling around and reading Wikipedia articles will be way better than whatever else I say in a few sentences, but suffice it to say, if people can discriminate against Autistic people for being who they are, what should we call that? I'm partial to "neurotypicalism" but that's not the common term. Ableism is much more common. Anyway, please Google the social model of disability.

underseacables 3y ago

For life?! This is ridiculous. It's like Kevin Mitnick in solitary confinement all over again. Because of a video game?

kmlx 3y ago
i think it’s because he was running an extortion group: https://www.tenable.com/blog/brazen-unsophisticated-and-illogical-understanding-the-lapsus-extortion-group https://www.tenable.com/blog/brazen-unsophisticated-and-illo...

alephnerd 3y ago

The amount of stereotyping of Autism here is horrible. Perpetrating the trope of the "Idiot Savant" or "Helpless Amorality" undercuts the millions of neurodiverse people who haven't harassed, assaulted, or threatened people.

RecycledEle 3y ago

We aspies have no respect for lies, so we can not be allowed into court rooms (cult rooms?)

wg0 3y ago

We should stop glamorizing criminal activities. Even if someone's door is wide open, any self respecting individual wouldn't step in and steal. The urge is always there and is natural. But everything natural isn't the right thing to do. Besides that, article has no technical hints as to why that happened. Rockstar level of IT environment is not that misconfigured I suppose or there are some inherent design flawa Internet protocol suite that can be exploited with a Firestick?

raylad 3y ago

Indefinite hospital stay order for hacking? I had to read the article 3 or 4 times before I was able to understand that this was in the UK, not in a 3rd world dictatorship.

bjanjotung 3y ago

This guy is probably the best thing that happened to Nvidia. Opened our eyes on extremely poor security policies and processes.

footlose_3815 3y ago

Call me skeptical but I’m reminded of Murdoch from the A team.

sophyphreak 3y ago

"A riot is the language of the unheard." -MLK Jr.

kar5pt 3y ago

What bothers me about this isn't that he was committed to a "hospital" (read: jail for mentally ill people). What bothers me is that the sentence is indefinite. The judge can give him a life sentence for what wouldn't normally justify a life sentence because he's calling it "medicine". The hospital commitment shouldn't be able to last longer than the sentence he would receive if he was neurotypical.

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GTALEAKSV5 3y ago

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wagwan 3y ago

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