22 ms·

My cat water fountain comes with a spicy USB power adapter

• denotational 3y ago
  This is the sort of thing that almost (but not quite) pushes me to support mandatory certification (enforced by patents/other IP protections) for consumer devices that use a familiar connector like USB. Consumers shouldn’t need to worry about the specific output voltage; the presence of a USB-A connector should indicate that it abides by the specification. The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this, but poor interoperability is such a pain that it would be nice to have stronger guarantees.
  • yreg 3y ago
    Yes, mandating this on consumer devices is quite sensible. At least adhere to the spec to such a level that it won't destroy other hardware.
  • can16358p 3y ago
    I think when it comes to safety restrictions should be there. The hacker in me hates it too but just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V. Many applicances would break, or perhaps even catch fire. If there were many different USB-A devices and people were used to checking the voltage output before plugging, that might not be needed, but since probably none of us check for a USB-A port to see if it outputs 7.5V, it better be mandatory to be certified. Though, maybe it is, but still those cheap Chinese adapters slip away.
    • nicolaslem 3y ago
      From my experience appliances tolerate a wide range of voltages. The outlets in my house routinely deviate from the standard 230V, with the lowest I have seen at 170V and highest at about 260V. I have not had any appliance malfunction. Edit: I am not advising anyone to deliberately do stupid things, simply mentioning that from my experience the builtin margin is fairly large.
      • justsomehnguy 3y ago
        Anything with an AC/DC transformation would be fine, anything with an AC motor would be not. Partially, not the every compressor in a refrigerator would tolerate that. But 170V... yikes!
      • bayindirh 3y ago
        Most of them are either 110-240V appliances, or lose performance when it goes around 170, and you may not notice. 260V is in +/- 10% threshold and is possibly falls within "engineered in tolerance" range, but will probably shorten the life of many appliances if supplied constantly.
      • etimberg 3y ago
        Are you measuring RMS voltage or just the instantaneous voltage? An RMS voltage of 230V corresponds with a peak voltage of ~325V so reading of 260V could theoretically happen.
        • nicolaslem 3y ago
          That's the reading from my UPS, I believe it's RMS since it reads 234 V currently.
        • mike50 3y ago
          That's not how it works. For a sine wave the integral converts to Vpeak/Sqrt(2)
      • lxgr 3y ago
        You (or your landlord) should probably hire an electrician to get that checked out – especially the higher voltage might be indicative of some scarier failure modes. A voltage drop of 25% could also mean you have semi-broken wiring somewhere, which can cause fires or shock hazards on faulty appliances.
        • nicolaslem 3y ago
          I did but unfortunately it quickly turned into all parties involved blaming each other (it's your utility, it's your installation...) and it got nowhere. For the past year it's been much more stable than before so I don't worry too much about it.
    • cesarb 3y ago
      > just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V. We have something like that here in Brazil. On cities which use 127V as the standard voltage (some cities use 220V), you can get 220V by using a pair of phases instead of a phase and the neutral, and it's common to find a few standard-looking sockets which are 220V instead of 127V. They might be colored red, they might have a yellow sticker saying "220V" next to it, or they might be completely unmarked. If your device is 127V only, or it has a manual 127V/220V switch which is on the 127V position, and you plug it into one of these 220V sockets, it will be damaged. (The standard we use for consumer AC power plugs and sockets, NBR 14136, does not make a distinction between voltages; the same plugs and sockets are used for both 127V and 220V.)
      • _3u10 3y ago
        Plus there’s 240V in Paraguay. I travel with cheap universal adapters and never have any problems.
      • stephen_g 3y ago
        That sounds incredibly error prone and actually quite dangerous! At least a lot of AC to DC converters are universal voltage and frequency, but not all appliances! In Australia we have only one voltage that will ever come out of a single phase socket, but the standards took the opposite approach with current ratings - the sockets are cleverly designed in terms of their current capacity so (assuming it’s been installed correctly) you can’t make mistakes without illegal and dangerous modifications. In the standard socket, you can have 10 amp, 15 amp or 20 amp, and they all have different sized pins. For the 15 amp plug and socket, the ground pin is larger, so a 15 amp plug cannot fit into a 10 amp socket. A 20 amp plug has all three pins larger, so it doesn’t fit in a 10 amp or 15 amp socket. But a 10 amp plug can still fit and sit snugly in a 15 or 20 amp socket, and a 15 amp can still fit into a 20 amp socket with no problems. It’s pretty clever. For bigger stuff, or anything three-phase, you then have big industrial circular ones, which I think have a similar system to not let you plug a higher current device into a socket that can’t supply enough current. I believe there are also three phase plugs and sockets both with neutral and without neutral, and if the plug has a neutral pin it doesn’t fit into a socket that doesn’t supply neutral.
    • kayfox 3y ago
      > just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V. Every once and a while an electrician wires up standard US outlets to 480v 3-phase instead of 208v 3-phase, so you end up with an outlet designed for 120v that puts out 277v. Sometimes noone notices because the switching power supplies plugged into them are just fine with this.
    • baq 3y ago
      > The hacker in me hates it too but just imagine if a small portion of standard-looking outlets did not output 220V (or whatever standard you have) and say 330V. Overvoltage is now routine in places where there's lots of PV installed in homes and not enough load nearby. If you live in such a place, you have a deep appreciation of varistors and should have either good insurance or a little bit of soldering skills... preferably both.
      • xenadu02 3y ago
        > Overvoltage is now routine in places where there's lots of PV installed in homes and not enough load nearby. Every solar inverter / microinverter manufactured in the past two decades (if not older) must monitor the grid voltage+frequency and disconnect if it falls outside of a certain tolerance. If things go out of tolerance there is a defined period of time where it must recover or the inverter is required to trip out. There are also hard safety limits that cannot be exceeded whatsoever. I am not aware of any conditions that would result in overvoltage. In CA as of (IIRC) 2021 these systems must be hooked up to some kind of online monitoring so the utility can temporarily command them to exceed tolerances. If the grid is going unstable due to load the last thing you want is everyone's PV system tripping off making the supply situation worse. So the utility can inform the system to exceed the normally tight tolerances by a larger deviation. They can also command PVs systems to shut off but there are strict limits on how often and how long they can do that and it must be driven by grid stability needs.
        • baq 3y ago
          Yes, absolutely, same here. The problem is varistors blow out before the safety measures work. Perhaps due to wear or low quality, but this still happens.
          • xenadu02 3y ago
            I'm not sure how a single inverter failure could drive voltage high. Or how a varistor failure could cause a problem... The inverter has to perform a DC-AC conversion and has many more ways to fail safe than unsafe but I'm not saying it is impossible. I've seen some oddball things. But it certainly isn't a widespread issue. Smart meters report voltage, the utilities would know if this was happening and given how much they hate rooftop solar they'd be yelling about it if they could.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • wiredfool 3y ago
    It's got a CE mark, but it's unclear if it's valid or not. This is a mandatory certification in the EU, like the UL listing in the US. The device is specifying the output voltage, which isn't in spec for the connector, but it is (apparently) accurate.
    • currency 3y ago
      There's a deceptively similar mark that stands for China Export and does not indicate EU certification[0]. [0]https://www.kimuagroup.com/news/differences-between-ce-and-china-export-markings/ https://www.kimuagroup.com/news/differences-between-ce-and-c...
      • cjrp 3y ago
        Wow, that's incredibly close. I assumed there would be a public database of CE (European) approved devices or manufacturers, but I can't find one from a quick search.
        • blibble 3y ago
          CE mark (the real one) is self certified
        • dagw 3y ago
          The CE marking is a self certification program, and there isn't an approval process. All the can happen is that you can get fined after the fact for applying the mark to products which don't fulfil the necessary requirements.
          • anilakar 3y ago
            Technically it is a self-certification program, since it's the device manufacturer who signs the certificate, but that's not the whole truth. A manufacturer still needs to prove compliance (in the case of the EMC directive, either Annex II or III) or slapping on the mark is just fraud.
      • 3y ago
  • thriftwy 3y ago
    Why not have efficient law and just sue large sums out of misbehaving manufacturers? Then you no longer punish the innocent.
    • lxgr 3y ago
      If you can get a hold of the manufacturer, sure. But don’t count on Amazon or other marketplaces helping you with that: They’re not a reseller, as they’ll be happy to tell you; no liability! (And no responsibility for collecting customs payments either.)
      • thriftwy 3y ago
        Make Amazon sign up for compulsory customer protection insurance if they want to share the liability with somebody, otherwise it's all theirs.
  • ricardobeat 3y ago
    That CE marking on the adapter is probably fake - how would it have passed certification while outputting a voltage 50% higher than spec?
    • jeroenhd 3y ago
      All the CE marking indicates is that the product complies with European specifications. As far as I know, there are no EU/EEA specifications regarding the voltage of an USB port. This may violate the USB spec and burn out phones, but it's not necessarily undeserving of the CE mark.
      • ricardobeat 3y ago
        Turns out the new regulation for chargers and USB-C universal compatibility actually demands USB Power Delivery [1] support, but I guess it's too early to expect compliance with that. Even without that, one would hope that part of the compliance tests includes actual compliance with whatever port specification is being used - I don't think any part of the USB spec allows for 7.5V, but I might be wrong. You just wouldn't expect, say, a portable battery to have a standard Schuko plug but output 330V while bearing the CE mark. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022L2380 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
        • jeroenhd 3y ago
          I quote from the regulation you linked: > The requirements set out in points 2 and 3 of this Part shall apply to the following categories or classes of radio equipment: > 1.1. handheld mobile phones; > 1.2. tablets; > 1.3. digital cameras; > 1.4. headphones; > 1.5. headsets; > 1.6. handheld videogame consoles; > 1.7. portable speakers; > 1.8. e-readers; > 1.9. keyboards; > 1.10. mice; > 1.11. portable navigation systems; > 1.12. earbuds; > 1.13. laptops. Unless you can convince your local standards authority that the cat water fountain you bought is actually a weird looking portable speaker, I don't think this law applies her. Unfortunate, really, because USB port really shouldn't use non-standard voltages. I'm sure there's some consumer protection law you could use in court to make the manufacturer pay for damage if they damaged your devices (there are a bunch of "a product should work like you would expect" types of laws sprinkled across consumer protection laws) but I don't think this violates CE standards.
  • lucideer 3y ago
    > mandatory certification (enforced by patents/other IP protections) > The hacker in me hates the idea If the hacker in you really hates this, then why insist on enforcing via means that restrict both vendor and user freedom (IP) instead of regulatory enforcement that exclusively targets vendors & leaves hackers free to hack?
    • thriftwy 3y ago
      Hackers want not just hack for themselves but share the product of their craft with other parties without going through fences.
      • shermantanktop 3y ago
        Some do. Some don’t. The various uses of the term “hacking” do not universally require tech to be shared. Long before RMS and other ideology-oriented types, people were adapting commercial tech to local purposes which the vendor didn’t intend and wouldn’t endorse.
      • lucideer 3y ago
        Are you implying that regulation need put up more such fences than IP restrictions?
    • denotational 3y ago
      What would the regulatory enforcement look like? If I develop a new connector, how do I get the regulator to start enforcing that everyone who uses it is following my standard? What happens when I find a way to extend the specification in a safe, backwards compatible manner, but this conflicts with the standard as enforced by the regulator? I’m not saying that these are insurmountable problems, but I feel like the regulator should focus on issues such as safety, and interoperability should be enforced by the company/consortium that develops the standard in the first place.
  • ReptileMan 3y ago
    I don't see how making sure that when something looks and quacks like a duck is actually a duck conflicts with the hacker ethos. The more standardized things are - the easier it is to build something. I love that I can take any combination of DIN parts and suppliers and know they will play nicely. Also there are a lot of standardized higher voltage connectors. this case is incompetence or negligence from manufacturer - and those are against everything hacking is about
  • yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    I think the thing that would let me stomach it is 1. Only legally mandating it for consumer devices / sold on the open market / commercial entities manufacturing it, or whatever the sensible way to structure that sentiment is, and 2. USB supports negotiating higher power settings, so you're not artificially limiting what's possible, just enforcing a safe worst case. If you need some USB connector that carries a kW you can theoretically still do that, you just have to not default to putting 100+ volts across the power pins the moment the thing is plugged in.
    • verandaguy 3y ago
      Re: 2: as you likely already know, this is a (major, pretty well thought out) part of newer usb standards. Unfortunately there’s no realistic way to backport this to older usb accessories. You can’t push an OTA update to the author’s wall wart.
      • yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
        I thought it worked fine with devices that had never been updated because you start from the very oldest spec and the lowest power and then both devices have to negotiate up? I mean, sure you won't get better performance or power out of an old device but it's at least safe which is good enough for me, and for bonus points it's likely to work at some reduced level.
        • verandaguy 3y ago
          Yup, that's how it works, but you unfortunately can't retrofit out-of-spec devices like the author's to be within spec at scale.
  • gumby 3y ago
    > The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this, but poor interoperability is such a pain that it would be nice to have stronger guarantees. For pure consumer products (whatever that means) safety standards are quite reasonable. There are already legal requirements in the USA that plugs have certain shapes controlling orientation, grounding, and expected voltage, as well as building code so that people don’t trip over long power cables. Food safety means you can pick up something at the shop and have some faith it won’t kill you. This reduces cognitive overhead and doesn’t require you to be an expert in every domain. It also doesn’t stop you from hacking your own stuff (mostly — please don’t mix ammonia and bleach!) and easily provides you a bunch of dependable items on which you can build your hacks. So you can (briefly!) supply 100 amps of 240V AC over USB A at home if you want, you just can’t sell it. You can make yoghurt at home and store it on the counter in the sun if you want, no problem.
  • avgcorrection 3y ago
    It’s difficult enough to figure out which side goes up. I can’t worry about this as well.
  • maxerickson 3y ago
    USB does control use of their marks, it would probably be new law to prevent use of the physical arrangement.
    • denotational 3y ago
      > new law to prevent use of the physical arrangement Even if the connector itself were patented?
  • insanitybit 3y ago
    > The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this As long as you are free to modify the hardware or purchase specific non-conforming hardware I see no reason why this would be painful for a hacker.
  • alexpotato 3y ago
    > pushes me to support mandatory certification It wasn't mandatory but this is one of the main reasons Underwriter's Laboratory was started. The market needed a certification to say "yes, this things does what it's says it does and in a safe manner". My dad owned a retail store in the 1970s and he distinctly remember being told "Lots of retailers won't carry a brand/item unless it has the 'UL' sticker on it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_(safety_organization) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_(safety_organization)
    • latchkey 3y ago
      These days, any thing can have any sticker.
      • willcipriano 3y ago
        Decent chance there is a little ul logo on the cat water fountain.
      • f1shy 3y ago
        Specially TÜV. Means near nothing.
    • zwirbl 3y ago
      Would this be comparable to a CE marking in Europe or more like a TÜV certification?
      • Robelius 3y ago
        Sort of. UL and CE are certifications that declare a a product confirms to the standards defined by those groups. The main difference is that UL only focuses on product safety (i.e. Shock and mechanical hazards), while CE covers product safety plus environmental and health requirements. UL is technically a global standard, but mostly used in USA/Canada. That's only two countries which already have laws governing what can and cannot be put in a consumer device. I'm not as familiar with the history of CE, so I don't know why CE decided to cover environmental standards. But my speculation is that it's because CE covers ~30 countries with a larger range of laws.
  • beej71 3y ago
    OTOH we have tons of crazy non-usb transformers with all kinds of different plugs that might or might not plug into devices they're meant for. It seems like somehow we're used to the idea that this particular plug will only work with the device that came with it, but we assume that USB-A is USB-A. I know I do. This does make me wonder about the USB adapter I got with my dash cam. The documentation says all over the place to pretty please with sugar on top use our adapter. I'll have to stick a meter on it. [Edit: 5.1v.]
    • dehrmann 3y ago
      It's not just USB-A. You can assume your US-style wall outlet is ~115 V, 60 Hz. Cigarette lighters in cars are 12-ish V.
    • creaturemachine 3y ago
      It's likely that they are trying to avoid support calls from users plugging into whatever USB port is on their dash that might not supply enough current, or is intended for media/AA/Carplay and forcing the camera into interfacing with the infotainment system.
  • jayd16 3y ago
    Mandatory how? Won't they just ship an uncertified adapter anyway?
    • denotational 3y ago
      Patent the connector and enforce it aggressively.
  • JohnFen 3y ago
    > The hacker in me hates the idea of enforcing something like this Why? I'm not sure what being a hacker has to do with it, but this sort of thing would benefit everybody and harm nobody except for the negligent.
  • rollcat 3y ago
    This. Nintendo comes to mind; charging the Switch (the earlier models IIRC) with a third-party adapter was a lottery, and the losing prize was a fried console. They've been guilty of this practice for as long as they've been making electronics - I think it was the NES or the SNES that used a standard barrel jack and voltage, but reversed the polarity, with no circuit to protect the console. Also - using Ethernet ports/cables for serial console access is not even evil, it's just stupid. Granted the switches/routers that do this are not exactly SOHO equipment, but you need to let students in a lab near that, and it's just asking for trouble.
    • duskwuff 3y ago
      > Nintendo comes to mind; charging the Switch (the earlier models IIRC) with a third-party adapter was a lottery, and the losing prize was a fried console. The problem you're thinking of was caused by a Nyko third-party docking station with a faulty hardware implementation of USB-PD. While Nintendo's software implementation of USB-PD was flawed in some ways, it didn't cause this problem. > I think it was the NES or the SNES that used a standard barrel jack and voltage, but reversed the polarity, with no circuit to protect the console There is, sadly, no "standard" polarity for barrel power jacks. Center-positive and center-negative are both fairly common.
      • rollcat 3y ago
        > While Nintendo's software implementation of USB-PD was flawed in some ways, it didn't cause this problem. I stand corrected. The dock however, still rejects non-Nintendo chargers. I have an MBP, a Thinkpad, an iPad, and a Switch - every device works with each other's (and third-party) chargers, except the Switch, when docked.
        • sleepybrett 3y ago
          I think these usb-c pd (and other) issues were corrected in the oled switches and the docks that come with them but the fixes might not have been total. This comment, specifically about some of the technical details of the video out stuff points to at least some changes were done in the new generation: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/171c3mj/comment/k3q0we2/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/171c3mj/comme... Someone can correct me on this as well. I've noticed that my switch will charge properly and quickly on their provided charger and a few other usb-c chargers I have but not certain other ones where it charges much slower. My theory has been that not all usb-c chargers are compatible with all voltages and that perhaps the switch's 'preferred fast-charge voltage' is somewhat uncommon (i think it's 17v?). Can anyone confirm this is how these things work? I just assume there is a negotiation where the charger says 'I can supply these voltages, and perhaps at these max amps, and the device choses one or none of them depending on it's needs.
  • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    Could that ever really help? The vast majority of devices do this correctly, even from the cheap, nameless manufacturers cranking stuff out for sale in marginal retail outlets. I suspect even if there was some sort of legislation or accountability that this particular culprit would have pulled the same stunt. They'd have relied on the fact that it's difficult to track down who manufactured the item, that there'd be little incentive to do so by anyone who became aware of it, and that they'd be safe from repercussions across some international border. I think your initial instinct is right.
  • eternityforest 3y ago
    I'd rather see specific laws against bad voltages on USB. Isn't there already some law somewhere against things that are so obviously not what a consumer would expect?
• p0w3n3d 3y ago
  I have the same fountains and I have already roasted an iPad charger on it fountain (I used the charger because it had possibility to connect cable to it instead of plugin directly to the socket). One day it just went out and burnt a little. From that time I tend to use the provided one, but I never noticed it provides a different voltage. Thanks for the warning
  • londons_explore 3y ago
    An official Apple iPad charger wouldn't fail in this case - it has protection against basically anything on the output side - from short circuits to big back-EMF spikes. 3rd party ones on the other hand....
    • homefree 3y ago
      This is the reason I only use apple chargers for charging everything.
      • jorvi 3y ago
        There are much higher quality chargers (and cables) than Apple's. Anker is well known, and Baseus is getting there. They are especially nice because they make GaN chargers, putting a lot of power in a tiny package. It honestly kind of baffles me how crappy Apple's cables and chargers are when they simultaneously make one of the best USB-C to 3.5mm DACs on the market, and then sell it for $10.
        • shermantanktop 3y ago
          Anker has been surprisingly good. I worried they were a Chinese faux brand but everything I’ve gotten has been solid and well made.
          • jorvi 3y ago
            The Chinese are definitely capable of producing great products, it's just that the quality control for that is only there for name- / high-end- / West-controlled brands. I believe the Chinese government is keen to get rid of the crappy reputation Chinese products carry ("Chinesium"), but its gonna be a process.
• h2odragon 3y ago
  I wouldn't trust the writing on it; either.
• syx 3y ago
  I noticed something similar to this on my Insta360 ONE X charger. Initially I thought I could just use any USB power adapter but after many tries it turned out that the vendor implemented their own voltage on their charger sold separately. Quite a disappointment as charger broke after two years.
  • PetitPrince 3y ago
    For what it's worth, I can charge my X3 (same camera, two generations later) with all the USB-C charger I tried (laptop charger, phone charger, car adapter). USB-C helps, I guess (One X is micro-usb).
• bArray 3y ago
  To be completely fair, those power banks should have a diode (or some protection circuitry) to prevent their damage. A loose cable could easily put higher voltage on the port than 5.25V. That said, what an awful USB port to come across. A little reading wouldn't have gone amiss though. My natural reaction would have been to assume it was an output, not an input.
  • lxgr 3y ago
    A diode doesn’t protect from over-voltage; that requires more complicated circuitry as far as I understand. And how would a loose cable cause a voltage spike?
    • cjwoodall 3y ago
      TVS diodes can protect from transient voltage spikes when used properly (low impedance to the input connector, properly chosen and with the proper supporting circuitry) Zener diodes can temporarily protect an overvoltage too but you will need something to take all that current that is now going through it, making it pretty hot and likely to fry something You can pair something like this with a positive temperature coefficient thermistor to act as a fuse (as it gets hotter the resistance goes up). These circuits are tricky to tune right, take up space and can add significant cost to a product. So with a drive in consumer products to lower cost smaller things you may not see them everywhere.
    • KaiserPro 3y ago
      perhaps a they meant a zener diode, which can be used to clamp a voltage? The downside being that it dissipates the excess energy across it's self. > how would a loose cable cause a voltage spike? From the top of my flu-y head, connecting and disconnecting an inductive load (like a motor) can cause spikes. However in USB land, that's pretty rare. dc-dc step up devices use an oscillator to charge and discharge an inductor to achieve a certain voltage increase. They _could_ be noisy when starting up, or have transient load.
      • bArray 3y ago
• kccqzy 3y ago
  I recently found a Huawei-branded power bank that outputs 9V over USB-A. See https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000209696496.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000209696496.html and look at the label on the seventh picture. EDIT: I may be wrong. Apparently this is now allowed by the Quick Charge spec. See comments below.
  • mciancia 3y ago
    That might be within some quickcharge specs and it won't output 9v by default
    • notRobot 3y ago
      Yes, I can confirm those are standard quickcharge specs.
  • chedabob 3y ago
    That looks like a proprietary version of Quick Charge, which has a negotiation step before the alternate voltage is enabled. From that murky period where everyone was tacking on all sorts of protocols to get more than 5V/0.5A from a USB-A port.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • justsomehnguy 3y ago
    Yes, it's clearly marked as 5v/9v, so it is capable of 9V, not the only one voltage.
• Ekaros 3y ago
  I also applaud who ever came up with 2 strand wire with USB-A at other end and USB-C at other...
  • ipsum2 3y ago
    Seems pretty secure to me.
• londons_explore 3y ago
  9v or 12v over USB-A is reasonably common here in Asia... You always need to check the voltage rating before randomly plugging stuff in if it isn't from a big manufacturer. For example, the handwarmers I'm using right now are USB-A at 12 volts, but have a dial to adjust the voltage up and down between 0 volts and 12 volts to adjust the temperature (I think it's actually PWM on the 12v power lines, but haven't actually checked). 5.5V or 6V is also common because it lets you use thin cheap wires which remove about a volt and still can fast charge phones (which tend to be picky and will drop back to 500mA charging if the voltage droops). Big manufacturers also use non-5V over USB sometimes, but you need to send a special message to enable higher voltages, so it's safe to plug them into anything. Still troublesome if you're using a USB Y-splitter or multi-headeded cable.
  • rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Where in Asia? I lived in China from 2010 to 2019 and the only voltages I've seen on USB A ports is ~5V and ~4.2V. The latter on the charger for some rechargable bicycle lights.
    • londons_explore 3y ago
      Thailand
      • berkes 3y ago
        > Thailand > USB-powered handwarmers This combination is just weird. So weird, that the only place I can think this then applies, is... Thailand.
        • exadeci 3y ago
          Tourists only go to the beach areas, north has mountains and can be quite cold
          • berkes 3y ago
• loufe 3y ago
  My recent work experience leads me to believe CE approval is a rubber stamp. I don't have any clue what that certification is worth to anyone.
  • metafunctor 3y ago
    I've understood the CE marking to mean that according to the manufacturer, the device shouldn't catch fire, shouldn't shock me, and shouldn't give off a lot of radio interference. Never did I thank that would be some kind of "this is a great thing" approval stamp. However, it never occurred to me that a USB-A charging brick would be able to give 7.5V, or even 9V or 12V as others have commented. That might completely fry some devices...
  • dagw 3y ago
    CE approval is not only a rubber stamp, it's a rubber stamp you get to apply yourself. By applying the CE mark you a certifying that your product fulfils all the necessary requirements and that you can document it, but no one will actually check. While it is illegal to apply the CE mark to a non-conforming product (or to sell or import non-conforming products with the CE mark), basically nobody gets prosecuted.
  • mrweasel 3y ago
    Firstly, CE is not a certification, it just means that the product is in compliance with legislation. It's something the companies need to verify themselves. That leads to the problem child which is China and its lacking morals. Chinese companies will just slap the CE on anything, because the EU say that must and Europeans seems to enjoy seeing it. Sometimes, they will slap on a different CE marking, meaning "China Export". You can tell the difference by tracing the C to a full circle, if that hits the E exactly, its CE as in "conformité européenne", if it doesn't, it's China Export. If you're a fly by night USB charger manufacturer, you just invent a new brand for next month, so you won't get the fines or be banned.
    • pseudalopex 3y ago
      The mark people claim means China Export is just a fake CE mark.
• dzek69 3y ago
  I saw a device (a drill or something) that had a standard USB-C plug on it's charger. I thought - nice, I can charge a drill with my PD charger or use it's charger to charge my phone while I'm in the garage! But the charger was always giving 12 or even 20V (i don't remember exactly, I don't have access to this device now). A real trap.
• fishbacon 3y ago
  I am concerned that there are no pictures of the adorable cats in the post. It sound like the manufacturers just see USB-A as a convenient and cheap connector for delivering power.
  • hddherman 3y ago
    Hi, author here, I've fixed that in the post now.
    • walthamstow 3y ago
      Great news! By the way, are you Finnish? I've never seen an 'O with tilde' character before.
      • hddherman 3y ago
        Nope, Estonian. Quite close to Finnish but not quite the same. We do have all the õäöü-s that we need though.
        • WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
          I apparently need to map more. My head had some Mercator perversion where Finland and Estonia were a continent apart. Or maybe I don't do spheres well.
      • moffkalast 3y ago
        A Møøse once bit my sister...
      • emerongi 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%95 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%95 It's a pretty rare character indeed.
      • JCharante 3y ago
        Vietnamese uses the O with tilde charcater Õ, it's fairly common. The first word I can think of is ngõ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ng%C3%B5_h%E1%BA%BBm https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ng%C3%B5_h%E1%BA%BBm
• lxgr 3y ago
  This actually makes me quite happy that most stuff does not come with a wall adapter anymore these days, but only with a USB plug. There are much worse things than 7V that a bad adapter can output. One of the scariest failure modes I’ve recently learned about is a supply that still provides 5V between both pins – but 225V and 230V to ground, respectively…
  • anonu 3y ago
    > respectively not sure I follow you. can you clarify what you mean by both 225v and 230v to ground? You are measuring the potential between ground and USB output?
    • red_trumpet 3y ago
      There are two pins. One has 225V to ground, the other one has 230V to ground. So the voltage from pin to pin is still 230V-225V = 5V.
    • lxgr 3y ago
      Yes, and given that USB devices usually don’t have protective grounding (since they expect to be supplied 5V to ground at most!), you just might be what eventually provides that ground connection when you touch a conducting part of the case…
    • ronsor 3y ago
      Surely this is a violation of the specifications?
      • moqmar 3y ago
        Definitely at least electrical standards in most countries, and probably USB also specifies that the voltage needs to be isolated from mains. But yeah, usually those are illegal to be sold.
  • fundad 3y ago
    I just bought the one from Eufy and it didn't come with a wall wart. I used the wart that came with a lamp. The lamps is plugged to the USB port on my sit-stand-desk. When I raise and lower the desk, the lamp lights up. That might not be the power port, it may be the "induction" power button on the lamp's chord getting interference from the desk motors. I'm living the tinderbox life.
• idk1 3y ago
  Really informative article thanks, however, I think that "my two adorable cats" should have a link to the two adorable cats.
  • phendrenad2 3y ago
    You did it!!
• dncornholio 3y ago
  Isn't this just a lesson to always read the output values on adapters?
  • hddherman 3y ago
    Hi, author here. If the writing on those adapters was easily readable by the visually impaired and surrounded by bright red/orange colors, this wouldn't be that much of an issue. I had one hell of a time trying to even photograph the output voltage etching specified on the adapter itself.
    • dncornholio 3y ago
      The info is still there.. You were not being lied to.
  • iamflimflam1 3y ago
    Well, USB is a standard - you would expect a standard USB output to deliver a standard voltage.
    • itslennysfault 3y ago
      Interestingly, even Samsung phone chargers put out 9v, but I think they only do that when connected to a Samsung device. On the plug is says 5v and 9v, and (I'm assuming) they switch to 9v when they detect a device that can use it for fast charging.
      • ComputerGuru 3y ago
        It’s called QuickCharge and was a standardized version of Apple’s fast charging or USB C PD many years before USB C was a thing. Samsung was a key player. The charger emits 5V unless the device supports higher voltage and negotiates it.
  • samus 3y ago
    It's a USB port. Differently than the dozens of proprietary charging connectors that were ubiquitous before micro-USB and USB-C dominated, consumers have an expectation that it adheres to the specification. To be on the safe side, one would actually have to check the voltage. Both the output voltage and whether these are really 0V and 5V to ground. The output frequency spectrum should also be checked.
• MattHeard 3y ago
  I have/had this cat water fountain too (my cats are now happy with a normal bowl) and I believe I just threw the wall wart into a box with the rest of my unused USB A wall warts. A little bit like electrical Russian roulette now, I guess.
  • shermantanktop 3y ago
    I couldn’t get mine to drink from it. They side-eyed it warily and avoided my attempts to entice them. Cats.
    • neuronic 3y ago
      Bought my cat a nice and large bed which is more akin to a throne but anyway. He now happily sleeps directly next to it.
      • rollcat 3y ago
        The level of interest a cat exhibits in a toy is inversely proportional to its price. Unless it's something you bought for yourself rather than the cat, in which case the cat goes for the most expensive thing first.
        • neuronic 3y ago
          Fully subscribe to this take. But in all seriousness, I think I underestimated just how much cats rely on smell at all times. I noticed yesterday that this plushy polyester bed is still strongly smelling like plastic mixed with some random pet store odors. This is likely not helping. I will laundry it at 60 degrees Celsius as recommended, sprinkle some of his cat hair around it and then see if he finally accepts it. At the moment he still prefers sleep on (multiple) electronic devices and on the floor in the hallway between rooms (attacking anyone passing by).
    • mdaniel 3y ago
      There are a couple of them which offer selectable force of the fountain effect (e.g. https://www.chewy.com/petlibro-stainless-steel-dog-cat/dp/378782 https://www.chewy.com/petlibro-stainless-steel-dog-cat/dp/37...), so it may be their domestication has tamped down the "babbling stream" identification circuits and they need something a little softer I'd also be on the lookout for the electrical hum mentioned in TFA; that would drive me crazy, and I can't speak to how it would make any kitty wary Also, and this may go without saying, but watch out for the fountain(s) being made out of materials which are hard to clean
• ryukoposting 3y ago
  At 7.5V, any properly engineered consumer device you plug into that port should do one of two things: 1. just accept the 7.5V and charge happily. 2. trip overvoltage protection and refuse the charger. That doesn't make this okay, it just means it isn't catastrophic. Note that I said consumer device. If I plugged one of my microcontroller dev kits into this thing, the magic smoke would be released pretty quickly.
• cmiller1 3y ago
  This brought back a distant memory of when I bricked my very first MP3 player, a Rio 500. See when Rio 500 was being designed the mini-usb B spec was not finalized yet, so when it was released it came with what looked like a normal mini-usb cable for charging, but in fact the pin-out was different. At some point I tried plugging it in with post 2000 cable and it killed the device.
  • h2odragon 3y ago
    IIRC, just before "miniB" actually hit; there was a lot of confusion and efforts to make something like it. Olympus and Fuji both had a USBC looking wingless connector on some USB cables, they'd used the same connector, but wired it differently. I was selling cables and adapters on ebay at the time and we had a package with both types. Easier to sell people both versions than deal with "oops i needed the other one." (I may well have mis-named the parties; apologies if so)
• gtirloni 3y ago
  Same discussion about USB-C, Thunderbolt, etc and how users would be confused.
• akx 3y ago
  Lidl does this too – the rotary tool Parkside PFBS 12 B3 comes with a charger that's obviously not USB-PD, but has an USB-C plug and it puts out a solid 13 volts at all times. (See https://www.kompernass.com/en/accessories/2316/charger-8 https://www.kompernass.com/en/accessories/2316/charger-8 for an image.) I sent Lidl a courteous and long mail about this and they didn't really care other than "please open a service ticket with your local Lidl", which I didn't care to do since what would they do?
  • robin_reala 3y ago
    Is there any EU body you can report them to?
    • Faark 3y ago
      Well, i had the same question and looking for this & the rules in general was... lets call it "a fun evening". Those common charger EU rules pushing USB-C via the Radio Equipment Directive are actually only for the device, and even a specific list of types. But in briefing document [2] (made for RED change last year) mentions: > a separate initiative on the eco-design for the external power supply (EPS) would harmonise the EPS-side receptacle and the communication protocol. So "EPS" is what we are looking for and they use some eco laws to regulate them. [1] gives an overview and links COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2019/1782. And again, it only applies to a specific set of devices, with power tools not being listed. Doubt those fall under "Other toys, leisure and sports equipment"^^ Back to that EPS initiative... from my understanding, it [3] seems to be still "Planned for Third quarter 2023". Feedback period ended in May 2022, ofc. The department seems to have vacant spot [4] for an expert, btw :) [1] https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environment/standards-tools-and-labels/products-labelling-rules-and-requirements/energy-label-and-ecodesign/energy-efficient-products/external-power-supplies_en https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/698819/EPRS_BRI(2021)698819_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/6988... [3] https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13351-External-power-supplies-ecodesign-information-requirements-review-_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... [4] https://www.cnr.it/sites/default/files/public/media/internazionale/bandi_end/ENER-B-3_EN.docx https://www.cnr.it/sites/default/files/public/media/internaz...
• mschuster91 3y ago
  > Yes, properly implemented USB type C ports can negotiate all sorts of voltages, but this is not one of them. Not just USB-C... even early generation QuickCharge could (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge).
• spzb 3y ago
  I dread to think what the insides of that adapter look like.
• al_al 3y ago
  Few years ago I bought a 12V led strip from aliexpress, it came with a usb charger. A "12V" USB charger. You can easily guess who put it near other chargers by mistake and then fried a PS4 controller trying to charge it with that :/
• palemoonale 3y ago
  > At one point I wanted to see if I could create a sort of a DIY UPS for the water fountain. It would be quite bad if I was at work and a power outage results in cats not being able to drink water (they don’t really care for normal water bowls after getting the fountain). So another self-made problem then.
  • npteljes 3y ago
    No, the point is that the charger has a standard USB-A socket, but delivers nonstandard charge. This is potentially dangerous, as the function of the charger does not match the user expectation.
    • palemoonale 3y ago
      Nope, the point is that he thought to fancy / easy up life with more tech (mentioned potential health issues my ass, you have to clean up every day anyway after pets - does he thin a fountain does not build up residue and germs?), and promptly got more issues to solve. One is the non-standard voltage output, another is spoiled cats which can't be arsed to drink from a peasant's bowl (knew about such habits before, exact same situation). Stop trying to 'improve' life by more & more tech-based BS.
      • hddherman 3y ago
        Hi, author here. Usually I'd agree with you here, people use tech in places where it shouldn't be used quite often, but in this case I do not mind it at all. If this helps avoid future visits to the vet (and so far it has worked), then it's OK in my book. And yes, you do have to clean it regularly and change the filters, we're already doing that.
      • npteljes 3y ago
        No, that's not the point. The point is to illustrate that products defy expectations with regards to the U in USB, which is for Universal. The rest of the article is context for the point, not the point itself. Reason 1 supporting this: the article's title is "My cat water fountain comes with a spicy USB power adapter". What sticks out most here is the word spicy, and when used in conjunction with electricity, it usually means more electricity than needed. Very good title. Reason 2 supporting this: The heading is "It turns out that you can’t trust any USB type A power adapter to be within spec". Nothing about cat fountains. Reason 3 supporting this: the article is tagged with the "ramblings" tag, setting us up that the article will be opinionated, and not strictly just about the central point of it. >Stop trying to 'improve' life by more & more tech-based BS. Hard disagree. There's no clear healthy cutoff with regards to technology, and the frame of reference also changes over time (and the course of history). Our life is supported by a ton of technology, many pieces of it being thought about as both "too much" and "not good enough".
• toddmorey 3y ago
  > The idea of a water fountain for cats may sound odd Cats instinctively love & trust moving water as stagnant water can accumulate bacteria & disease. So a cat fountain sounds like a gimmick or novelty but it’s a great idea.
  • arwhatever 3y ago
    I bet my cat drinks 500% more water since getting him this fountain, as compared to a still bowl of water. It’s cute and adorable (the fountain is a bit silly looking), and I have to assume it’s good for him. And to guard against power outages, I got him a separate fountain with an open top, so in a pinch at least he had some standing water.
  • jamincan 3y ago
    I got one after I noticed how much my cat liked to jump up to the sink and try to drink from the tap while I was using it. He loves it, and anecdotally seems to drink more than he did without.
    • upon_drumhead 3y ago
      Ours love direct from tap,but assumes the fountain is going to kill them.
    • small_fish 3y ago
      One of my cats learned to bump the faucet lever on the kitchen sink when he wanted a drink. Fortunately the sink only overflowed twice but that was enough to make me very serious about not leaving dishes in the sink.
    • fundad 3y ago
      Same here, we like our own furniture and faucets. So the cats have their own cat towers and a water fountain. The first day with the fountain, the cats were so chill. I wonder if running-water sound soothes them.
  • AngryData 3y ago
    Yeah I though ti was weird and was skeptical the first time I saw one. Ended up getting one later and the cats love it.
• itslennysfault 3y ago
  I was once working on an app for a Clover point of sale system. On the side there is a USB-C port. I plugged my new-ish MacBook Pro into it thinking I would be able to debug, but instead my mac instantly went black. I unplugged it, and eventually it rebooted, but the USB ports on that side never worked again. Turns out that port is intended for connecting a receipt printer, and clearly not in any way a standard USB-C. There is actually a micro usb port elsewhere on the device that can be used for debugging. Lesson learned the hard way.
  • pixl97 3y ago
    "Model 3.0, now with integrated USB-KILL"
• squiffsquiff 3y ago
  Everything old is new again. I used to think that the Etherkiller was a joke... http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/
• upon_drumhead 3y ago
  ThermoWorks SmokeX and Signal both use a 12v usbc power adapter. My partner fried her phone on it once due to seeing the cable and assuming it was a normal charger.
  • erikcw 3y ago
    I thought my ThermoWorks Signal had a dead/defective battery after trying to charge it on a standard USB power adapter. Device booted up and and functioned fine, except the battery wouldn't charge. Plugged it into the provided adapter and it started charging again. Thanks for the PSA, I'll be sure to get that adapter off my kitchen counter right away!
• hammock 3y ago
  I thought he was going to say there was current in the water. I remember showering in Costa Rica at a “hotel” and the shower head was one of those that heats the water (with an electric heater) and it was shocking me the whole time I used it. Probably shouldn’t have used it Apparently those are common in central and South America.
  • tkems 3y ago
    I remember this video [1] from bigclive about it. I had no idea it was so common to have live wires in contact with water. At least they are grounded sometimes? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjA0aee07k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjA0aee07k
    • salad-tycoon 3y ago
      Sometimes. In my experience in living in 3rd world it’s more like extremely rarely. The tingle just lets you know it’s working.
  • JCharante 3y ago
    Yup. When traveling abroad in a developing nation it turns out no one bothers to ground their power, so my macbooks (or my friend's laptop) always shocks me if I touch it while plugging in. You kinda taste iron if you keep touching it, but all the locals are used to it.
    • cesarb 3y ago
      The only laptops I've seen doing that are Apple laptops, for some reason other laptop brands do not seem to have that problem.
      • hammock 3y ago
        It's the metal case. Most PCs are plastic
      • JCharante 3y ago
• throwaw33333434 3y ago
  after reading the title I thought the manufacturer coated the adapter in chilly, so cats won't chew on it and thought - "That's a brilliant idea".
• forward1 3y ago
  I recently replaced my 120V receptacles with USB ones. Super convenient and it's allowed me to get rid of the dozens of various transformer plugs around the home. https://store.leviton.com/collections/usb-outlets https://store.leviton.com/collections/usb-outlets
  • tkems 3y ago
    While I think this is a great idea, I've seen these in public places and the USB-A sockets almost always get damaged. I'd be worried about having to replace a $40-50 receptacle every year or two if I happened to bump the cable and wanted to keep using the USB part. Still a good idea overall and I can see them being used in a few places around my home to save space. Also, I'd love to see ones with 65w charging so I can charge my laptop and still have an outlet to use!
    • upon_drumhead 3y ago
      How about 60w? https://a.co/d/eBLEVjC https://a.co/d/eBLEVjC There are a few no-name brands with 65w, but I don’t trust them. Just note, they are much larger than normal outlets and can be a squeeze to fit in a normal box.
• iancmceachern 3y ago
  Super dangerous, if someone were to not know and plug this charger into a regular USB device.
• boricj 3y ago
  I can only hope the person who designed this USB power adapter will end up frying their phone, tablet or other electronic device with it for some karmic justice.
• myarthuritis 3y ago
  I have the same fountain, I saw that when unboxing and immediately labeled the adapter as "FOUNTAIN ONLY". Really don't want some device fried because it received 50% more voltage than anticipated.
• Bud 3y ago
  [dead]
• plz-remove-card 3y ago
  Not victim blaming here, but I always check the output specs on any power adapter I have before using it, especially USB. I have quite the collection and in the very least the amperage varies wildly.
• hadlock 3y ago
  Would have been nice if he actually measured the output to verify. Takes 2 seconds with a multimeter. If the adapter is already out of spec, there's no reason why you should trust what is written on the side of the box.
  • hddherman 3y ago
    Very valid point, I just did that and my multimeter measures the output at 7.71V.
• ck2 3y ago
  That previous thread the other day made me wish there was a cheap usb pluggable to tell you about the quality (and quantity) of voltage from a usb device. Simple small screen or just led lights. Maybe even a "kill-a-watt" for usb power cube/banks.
  • wepple 3y ago
    The tools exist, but maybe not in a single nice package. I use: - A pass-thru USB power meter. Measures volts, amps, wattage (simple arithmetic), and watt-hours - a USB load device. You can configure the voltage and amps to draw. Used in conjunction with the above, you can see just how much a USB supply can supply - a watch cell powered cable tester. Not essential for your use-case, but great for working out whether a cable is at fault or not. None of this directly measures quality, but usually you can infer that from amps, and from negotiation.
• coverclock 3y ago
  I too have tried to use a USB power bank as a kind of DIY UPS to power a Raspberry Pi SBC. What I learned - which may be unrelated to your experience - is that all of the several power banks I tried can be either charging, or powering a device, but not both at the same time. So my Raspberry Pi would run until the power bank got low, then the power bank would cut power to the Pi and charge itself, then power the Raspberry Pi up again. I had to buy a power bank specifically advertised as a USB UPS; that worked fine. The normal power bank seems to be designed to charge a battery powered device like a mobile phone (whose own battery can be thought of as a kind of UPS for the device), but not a device that requires continuous power (like the Pi).
  • KolenCh 3y ago
    Which one did you get? I got a Zendure specifically for this purpose, but I find it the hard way that when it switch between battery power to wall power, it will momentarily lose power for a sec, resulting in a reboot
• geocrasher 3y ago
  I just bought a cheap oscilloscope (Hanmatek DOS1102) and it has the opposite oddity. It comes with a standard 5v USB adapter, but the cable going to scope is a USB A on one end and on the other... 2.5mm X 2.1mm barrel! Why they did not use a standard USB Micro or Mini (or C) connector on the scope, I'll never know.
• paledot 3y ago
  Wow, I appreciate the warning. I have a similar fountain that also uses a 7.5 V "USB" connector, and that adapter definitely would've ended up in my big box o' orphaned USB bricks when the fountain inevitably gives up the ghost or just becomes too gross to keep clean.
• VoxPelli 3y ago
  Increased voltage in itself is okay if done through any of the negotiated power delivery standards such as USB PD Latest USB PD supports up to 48V and up to 5A, resulting in 240W That’s also a reason why not all fast chargers work well for all products – if the required voltage + amperage combination is not supported then the closest supported lower combination will be used instead. That said, 7.5 volt is not a supported voltage in USB PD at least and there seems to be no handshake that guards it in this case