8 ms·

Pilots hide mental health problems so they don't lose their licenses

166 points by lisper 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
irjustin 3y ago
This is terrible for everyone involved. I have zero idea what the solution is. [Edit] After a little thought, honestly, automate the whole thing. Yes it removes an entire industry, but progress?
- dhsysusbsjsi 3y ago
  Easy - make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public. The problem is people think that any 'solution' to this problem needs to be perfect. "What if we never find out this guy was a problem" comes up. No. You just need to make the next system net _better_. Don't delay forward progress because the next step isn't "perfect".
  - fasthands9 3y ago
    Would that really solve much? If the concern is pilots are not being honest to save their jobs - it seems like they would still not be honest to a therapist if they were considering self harm. I'm sure it would just take one story of a therapist being overly cautious and reporting someone having benign issues for it to convince pilots not to talk to therapists. It would solve the problem of "pilot needs someone to talk to about their issues with their wife", which is nice. But don't know if it solves the larger issue being discussed.
  - irjustin 3y ago
    > make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public. Put yourself in a pilot's shoes. Would you attend sessions if there was ANY chance of you not being able to fly? Would others? It's optional and your entire career hinges on not being grounded once. That's you, your family, and anyone else who depends on your income. The perception of this solution is still the same as the current one - I can be grounded. Initially it might work, but once that first guy gets grounded via the program (or maybe a few), word gets out that's what this system ends up doing - you're right back here wondering what the solution was that was so easy.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      I have a solution: pass a law that if any pilot gets grounded for mental health issues, then the airline industry (as a whole, in case his airline goes belly-up) has to continue to pay that pilot's salary until he retires.
      - irjustin 3y ago
        This protects the pilot pretty well, but this leaves the airline open to some pretty crazy fraud, no?
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        Isn't this how it's handled in other countries when someone can't work due to medical issues? Surely they have some way of discouraging fraud, probably by making the doctor responsible or perhaps requiring multiple doctors to cross-check.
        irjustin 3y ago
        It happens in the US for worker's comp, but that's if you lose an arm. Pretty hard to fake that. Mental health, "relatively easy" to fake esp if there's a lot of money waiting for you on the other-side if you get it right.
  - cjbprime 3y ago
    The famous Germanwings murder-suicide had some of this in play -- the pilot's doctor had given him a letter excusing him from work, due to a probable psychotic episode, but the pilot chose not to share the letter with the airline and the doctor was forbidden by law from sharing it.
- cromka 3y ago
  Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box using the LEO. The latter is being already discussed anyway. A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. Pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed. If we can do remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing.
  - can16358p 3y ago
    > Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. TBH that would cause way many problems than it potentially could solve, not even mentioning the technical difficulties to implement. Though I agree with the rest, there should be a solution.
  - jart 3y ago
    That's the real issue then. Nothing would stimulate automation faster than suicidal pilots.
  - Matheus28 3y ago
    Have you used airplane internet? It’s awful. Only the military has the capability to remotely control a plane right now.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Not to directly speak on the feasibility of that plan, but the plane Internet will get a lot better if you kick off everyone else and otherwise put it into emergency mode.
    - cromka 3y ago
      Have you used LEO Internet, the one I specifically mentioned? It’s great.
- throwaway914 3y ago
  Not to draw seriously messed up parallels: I frequently get in arguments with my extended family because I believe pedophiles and criminals have rights. I talk about the documented history of innocent people being convicted of a crimes, but there are many guilty offenders. I want prison conditions to be better, and I use it as an example of "if you care about human rights, you care about them for everyone. Even convicted rapists and murderers." Sometimes I go off on another tangent because we should care about rights for immigrants as well. :) Then I lead into a 2nd bit where I say, "There are many pedophiles out there. People who have the tendencies, and people who have acted. We know that women who are pedophiles go under or un-reported." To treat some of this, we need mental health facilities available even for people we find disgusting and monstrous. We need a safe environment where they can go in anonymously and seek help. It may prevent someone who is just thinking about children from touching a child. Most people would rather just execute a SUSPECTED pedophile. That's how you get someone to hate themselves and the world and children and act on their impulses. Make the stigma and the reality for them worse. We love doing it in prisons. We love making prisoners suffer as a society. So to draw the awful parallel: We need mental health facilities available for pilots with no ability to report-out on how many are effected. We need to ensure anonymity, and provide resources with no idea of how well they may be helping someone on the edge. Maybe loose/aggregate data points can be reported, but my strongest emphasis would be on providing anonymous support that is always and frequently available. If you care about pilots and the passengers they ensure safety for, you need to extend the resources with no indication of how effective that is. You want them to receive care/treatment, for what very well could be a moments' ailment. If there is a long-term issue, it may help them with coping strategies. The alternative is letting it go untreated, and putting others at risk.
- oofdoof 3y ago
  The solution is to support these people if they are unable to work so that they don’t have to fear for their livelihood if they come down sick. If the expectation is for people who are sick to further worsen their condition by becoming unemployed and discard themselves then the system is broken - simple as.
- cco 3y ago
  The pilots union (and by extension airlines) need to establish a pension/insurance category for this eventuality imo. We need pilots with mental health issues to seek treatment for the safety of themselves and more importantly passengers. The mental health issue may be resistant to treatment or otherwise disqualify them from flying in the near or long term. When that happens, they lose their career. A robust system for handling this eventuality, much like getting injured on the job, needs to be put in place.
function_seven 3y ago
A completely natural and expected outcome. “Hey, you feeling depressed? Let’s take your livelihood away if you dare seek help.” I don’t have a better solution, but I also don’t really think it’s a big problem to begin with. The vast, vast majority of suicidal people still won’t take hundreds of others with them. They jump off buildings or shoot themselves or swallow a fistful of pills. If I was a pilot, you bet your ass I’m going to hide any mental struggles I’m having from the FAA. Now, I suppose if I had persistent and intrusive thoughts of darting my plane into a mountainside, I’d hopefully—during a moment of clarity—remove myself from any position that would enable me to carry that out. But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job. How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. (EDIT: Apologies if the article answers this. I can’t see behind the paywall)
- greyface- 3y ago
  > How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. This one comes to mind for me, although not technically a pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    An Alaska mechanic stole a small jet and intentionally crashed it and killed himself.
- kingTug 3y ago
  Agree with the sentiment (and have no better solutions either) but the lesser symptoms of clinical depression like insomnia, inability to focus, etc. are probably the more pressing concerns.
  - function_seven 3y ago
    Good point. I went straight to the most sensational way it could manifest. And, yeah, still can’t think of a good solution.
ShamelessC 3y ago
The silent stigma surrounding mental health means just about everyone hides their issues from their employer in America anyway.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  The book Healing: Our Path from Mental Illness to Mental Health is a good read along these lines.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  Stigma? Have you been on social media? Mental health disorders are fucking celebrated.
  - wenebego 3y ago
    The site we're on is social media
  - robben1234 3y ago
    Social media is an echo chamber for people with nothing better to do that represents a tiny part of population. In real world many industries would gladly disqualify professionals from working at the first hint of screws flying loose. Especially where any threat to safety have high potential to be fatal.
  - ShamelessC 3y ago
    I haven’t been on mainstream social media in awhile but it makes me happy to hear there’s such low stigma there. I can only assume this comes from a younger generation of people who have had to deal with unfathomable mental health issues from being raised in the internet era.
  - futuroptimist 3y ago
    They are "celebrated" despite the stigma. Also, it's not really celebrated as much as it is accepted and acknowledged.
tiahura 3y ago
I knew one that lost his medical card due to drinking on the job. Under the union contract, they still get 2/3 or 3/4 pay. Lots of trips to a shrink in Chicago. He drove a school bus to pass the time and for extra cash.
computerfriend 3y ago
The article The Madness in our Methods: The crash of Germanwings flight 9525 and our broken aeromedical system covers this topic excellently. https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-methods-the-crash-of-germanwings-flight-9525-and-our-broken-aeromedical-system-5b95abd4fe6d https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-metho...
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > the doctors at Lufthansa’s aeromedical center denied his application on account of his ongoing major depression and medication thereof >the only solution was to ease off the medication > With help from his psychiatrist, Lubitz was eventually able to end treatment, and in July 2009 he was declared fully recovered. > After applying again, the Lufthansa aeromedical center decided to issue him a new medical certificate, but with strings attached: if he ever again suffered from depression, the document said, the certificate would immediately become invalid. Amazing. They basically got a severely depressed patient off his medication and told him they would ruin his childhood dream of flying should he ever suffer and seek treatment again. And then allowed him to fly a plane.
andreareina 3y ago
https://archive.is/oro6v https://archive.is/oro6v
instaheat 3y ago
I've been looking into getting my pilot's license and taking a serious look at the training required for quite some time. Talking with other pilots and students, asking a lot of questions. They are starting to reduce some of the strict requirements and encumbrances placed on Pilots such as this because of the shortages. I'm in the unfortunate position of having a DWI from 2009 and have been told by multiple people in the industry that would hinder my career prospects as a pilot. Essentially, I've got no shot at getting hired by American or any other major airline because of something stupid I did when I was in college 14 years ago. I don't have a drinking problem and am a completely different person. It sucks.
- pageandrew 3y ago
  Not an airline pilot / medical examiner, but I do read r/flying quite regularly. Your story is not uncommon. The general wisdom on DWIs is that yes it does hurt your chances of getting into airlines, but if it was (1) minor/borderline, (2) a long time ago, and (3) you have shown a pattern of recovery, it is not a career ender.
  - instaheat 3y ago
    I am still going to go through the motions and earn my hours, criminal history be damned. I was under .15 at the time, which as I understand it, helps me significantly. Also looking at helicopter/flight medic but for now I am starting back to school in January to finish my AAS in Cybersecurity followed by BS in CS.
- askonomm 3y ago
  I never understood why in some countries the system never forgets - it's like they want to punish you till death, even after you already served your sentence. In Estonia, no matter how horrific the crime, your record gets wiped after 7 years since you finished serving the sentence (got out of prison / probation ended / paid a fine), allowing for people to move on with their lives.
  - gosub100 3y ago
cromka 3y ago
Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live using the LEO, alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box. The latter is being already discussed anyway. A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. In-cabin pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots left working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed. Correct me if I’m wrong, but vast majority of aviation deaths nowadays is caused by human factor, including pilot mistakes. If we can trust electronic voting or remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing. Seems like the predictability of the heavily regulated and standardized aviation makes it a much better candidate for autonomous systems than automotive, and I’d argue that the public has already somewhat OK-ed the latter.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Given the baseline security of these sorts of systems, this is a disaster waiting to happen.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Yeah, we just grounded an entire aircraft fleet for a few years due to systems overriding pilots.
    - cromka 3y ago
      Due to systems not designed properly and with improper regulatory oversight. Also, these systems were overriding these decisions autonomously, not through human intervention. A defeatist take.
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        Most incidents start with the systems failing and the pilots being the fallback. It’s not clear how, 1. A remote system would not be immune to this, and 2. How a remote system would be good if the systems are failing and probably producing bad readings
gavinhoward 3y ago
I was grounded by the FAA over a mental health history. I can understand why pilots would say nothing.
kurthr 3y ago
They didn't even bring up being armed in the cockpit: https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captain/ https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captai... That was last month.
- fransje26 3y ago
  Oh. I think this headline from the article sums it up nicely: > What on earth is wrong with people?
hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
Isn’t this just asscovering? If someone with a documented mental health condition crashes a plane, blame goes to all parties who know of the pilots status. If you don’t have that information in the first place it’s ‘tragic’ and ‘unavoidable’. Maybe it’s time we as a society start understanding risk, because while the information will certainly be ‘in-your-face’ in the event of such an incident, the rate of incidents in total would go down.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  The goal isn't to minimise the number of incidents, it's too minimise insurance premiums.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
John23832 3y ago
Same problem with doctors.
derbOac 3y ago
This has been a known problem for a long time. In fact, psychological test development studies use pilot screening to assess for the ability of a test to detect people who are trying to make themselves look good for exactly this reason. It's a mess and counterproductive.
matrix87 3y ago
All of a sudden, mental health is now a thing. So the FAA needs to change their policies and support the current thing Since mental health became a thing, have we become more mentally healthy as a society? Has it actually accomplished anything of substance? Or is it just a bunch of theater?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
joezydeco 3y ago
The article doesn't cover another facet of the FAA/mental health puzzle: ADHD. There's a whole generation of students that got diagnoses and/or medication in their younger years. Having any of that in your medical record puts you in the same category as the pilots mentioned in this article. Even if you've been off the Adderall for years, it's a mandatory psych eval and cognitive testing. Thousands of dollars in testing and a long wait for an FAA decision. There's been some recent changes, including a new "fast track" to approval if you've been off meds for four years or longer. But there's still paperwork. And the decision is far from guaranteed.
- imoverclocked 3y ago
  I just chatted with someone two days ago that has been trying to get through the medical process for five years. No details on her case but seriously, the FAA’s 1950’s stance on health is pretty ridiculous. That pilots have had to spend 10s of thousands of dollars just to be cleared, and that this is even expected by this point, is just dumb.
  - joezydeco 3y ago
    The cognitive screening process is long. It can take an entire day to complete with multiple personality interviews, computerized tests that strain your processing and reaction time, and a whole slew of other memory and attention tasks. It's a lot for anyone, and putting teenagers through it is cruel. Apparently the FAA is acutely aware of this, in light of a growing shortage of pilots in the pipeline and huge demand from the airlines. It would be more reasonable to use the recommendations of your local CFI and flight school to decide if you have the cognitive skills to fly solo, compared to a neuropsychologist sitting in an office. Hopefully this begins to change soon. What's really ironic is that once you've passed the certification and are sitting in the cockpit, you can have all the caffeine you want. But time-release ADHD medications are a no-no.
gmerc 3y ago
Because the systems are optimizing to avoid political fallout / cover your ass, not best "real world" results. Because that's what the system is about. That's the game rules. It's like saying "human centric AI, twinkle in the eye" and firing everyone over time because the system doesn't actually have a single parameter that would make it's actors optimize for the common good.
- searealist 3y ago
  What makes you think this is not the result of optimizing for safety?
  - gmerc 3y ago
    Eurowings Crash
TrackerFF 3y ago
This is also a problem for professional drivers (truck, taxi, etc.) - as in some countries you will automatically lose your license if you seek help for alcoholism. So what happens is that many of these type of drivers will simply not seek any help, because it is either that or their job / livelihood.
kayxspre 3y ago
In my case, I have to hide the fact I seek treatment for mental health to avoid being denied registration to practice law as a solicitor. While it is not an absolute ground to reject registration, declaring that I have mental health issue would require me to produce medical certificate that I was treated with one, even though it's no longer relevant to present situation Conversely, I have to declare the fact I was treated for medical health at specific military hospital to obtain medical certificate to be presented at the drafting installations. I have to do this for three years until they decided not to bother drafting me and certified that I participated in the draft, but not fit to be one I still seek mental treatment on a quarterly basis, though with myself going freelance, I no longer have to worry that my treatment will be detrimental to employment and work
- tiahura 3y ago
  In the US, mental problems aren’t an automatic disqualifiet to sitting for the bar, but being evasive with the bar investigators usually is.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
This is a good idea for many reasons. In this day and age professionals must still hide their mental illnesses. Or else.

166 points by lisper 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

This is terrible for everyone involved. I have zero idea what the solution is. [Edit] After a little thought, honestly, automate the whole thing. Yes it removes an entire industry, but progress?

dhsysusbsjsi 3y ago
Easy - make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public. The problem is people think that any 'solution' to this problem needs to be perfect. "What if we never find out this guy was a problem" comes up. No. You just need to make the next system net _better_. Don't delay forward progress because the next step isn't "perfect".
- fasthands9 3y ago
  Would that really solve much? If the concern is pilots are not being honest to save their jobs - it seems like they would still not be honest to a therapist if they were considering self harm. I'm sure it would just take one story of a therapist being overly cautious and reporting someone having benign issues for it to convince pilots not to talk to therapists. It would solve the problem of "pilot needs someone to talk to about their issues with their wife", which is nice. But don't know if it solves the larger issue being discussed.
- irjustin 3y ago
  > make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public. Put yourself in a pilot's shoes. Would you attend sessions if there was ANY chance of you not being able to fly? Would others? It's optional and your entire career hinges on not being grounded once. That's you, your family, and anyone else who depends on your income. The perception of this solution is still the same as the current one - I can be grounded. Initially it might work, but once that first guy gets grounded via the program (or maybe a few), word gets out that's what this system ends up doing - you're right back here wondering what the solution was that was so easy.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    I have a solution: pass a law that if any pilot gets grounded for mental health issues, then the airline industry (as a whole, in case his airline goes belly-up) has to continue to pay that pilot's salary until he retires.
    - irjustin 3y ago
      This protects the pilot pretty well, but this leaves the airline open to some pretty crazy fraud, no?
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        Isn't this how it's handled in other countries when someone can't work due to medical issues? Surely they have some way of discouraging fraud, probably by making the doctor responsible or perhaps requiring multiple doctors to cross-check.
        irjustin 3y ago
        It happens in the US for worker's comp, but that's if you lose an arm. Pretty hard to fake that. Mental health, "relatively easy" to fake esp if there's a lot of money waiting for you on the other-side if you get it right.
- cjbprime 3y ago
  The famous Germanwings murder-suicide had some of this in play -- the pilot's doctor had given him a letter excusing him from work, due to a probable psychotic episode, but the pilot chose not to share the letter with the airline and the doctor was forbidden by law from sharing it.
cromka 3y ago
Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box using the LEO. The latter is being already discussed anyway. A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. Pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed. If we can do remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing.
- can16358p 3y ago
  > Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. TBH that would cause way many problems than it potentially could solve, not even mentioning the technical difficulties to implement. Though I agree with the rest, there should be a solution.
- jart 3y ago
  That's the real issue then. Nothing would stimulate automation faster than suicidal pilots.
- Matheus28 3y ago
  Have you used airplane internet? It’s awful. Only the military has the capability to remotely control a plane right now.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Not to directly speak on the feasibility of that plan, but the plane Internet will get a lot better if you kick off everyone else and otherwise put it into emergency mode.
  - cromka 3y ago
    Have you used LEO Internet, the one I specifically mentioned? It’s great.
throwaway914 3y ago
Not to draw seriously messed up parallels: I frequently get in arguments with my extended family because I believe pedophiles and criminals have rights. I talk about the documented history of innocent people being convicted of a crimes, but there are many guilty offenders. I want prison conditions to be better, and I use it as an example of "if you care about human rights, you care about them for everyone. Even convicted rapists and murderers." Sometimes I go off on another tangent because we should care about rights for immigrants as well. :) Then I lead into a 2nd bit where I say, "There are many pedophiles out there. People who have the tendencies, and people who have acted. We know that women who are pedophiles go under or un-reported." To treat some of this, we need mental health facilities available even for people we find disgusting and monstrous. We need a safe environment where they can go in anonymously and seek help. It may prevent someone who is just thinking about children from touching a child. Most people would rather just execute a SUSPECTED pedophile. That's how you get someone to hate themselves and the world and children and act on their impulses. Make the stigma and the reality for them worse. We love doing it in prisons. We love making prisoners suffer as a society. So to draw the awful parallel: We need mental health facilities available for pilots with no ability to report-out on how many are effected. We need to ensure anonymity, and provide resources with no idea of how well they may be helping someone on the edge. Maybe loose/aggregate data points can be reported, but my strongest emphasis would be on providing anonymous support that is always and frequently available. If you care about pilots and the passengers they ensure safety for, you need to extend the resources with no indication of how effective that is. You want them to receive care/treatment, for what very well could be a moments' ailment. If there is a long-term issue, it may help them with coping strategies. The alternative is letting it go untreated, and putting others at risk.
oofdoof 3y ago
The solution is to support these people if they are unable to work so that they don’t have to fear for their livelihood if they come down sick. If the expectation is for people who are sick to further worsen their condition by becoming unemployed and discard themselves then the system is broken - simple as.
cco 3y ago
The pilots union (and by extension airlines) need to establish a pension/insurance category for this eventuality imo. We need pilots with mental health issues to seek treatment for the safety of themselves and more importantly passengers. The mental health issue may be resistant to treatment or otherwise disqualify them from flying in the near or long term. When that happens, they lose their career. A robust system for handling this eventuality, much like getting injured on the job, needs to be put in place.

function_seven 3y ago

A completely natural and expected outcome. “Hey, you feeling depressed? Let’s take your livelihood away if you dare seek help.” I don’t have a better solution, but I also don’t really think it’s a big problem to begin with. The vast, vast majority of suicidal people still won’t take hundreds of others with them. They jump off buildings or shoot themselves or swallow a fistful of pills. If I was a pilot, you bet your ass I’m going to hide any mental struggles I’m having from the FAA. Now, I suppose if I had persistent and intrusive thoughts of darting my plane into a mountainside, I’d hopefully—during a moment of clarity—remove myself from any position that would enable me to carry that out. But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job. How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. (EDIT: Apologies if the article answers this. I can’t see behind the paywall)

greyface- 3y ago
> How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. This one comes to mind for me, although not technically a pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  An Alaska mechanic stole a small jet and intentionally crashed it and killed himself.
kingTug 3y ago
Agree with the sentiment (and have no better solutions either) but the lesser symptoms of clinical depression like insomnia, inability to focus, etc. are probably the more pressing concerns.
- function_seven 3y ago
  Good point. I went straight to the most sensational way it could manifest. And, yeah, still can’t think of a good solution.

ShamelessC 3y ago

The silent stigma surrounding mental health means just about everyone hides their issues from their employer in America anyway.

nathanaldensr 3y ago
The book Healing: Our Path from Mental Illness to Mental Health is a good read along these lines.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bongodongobob 3y ago
Stigma? Have you been on social media? Mental health disorders are fucking celebrated.
- wenebego 3y ago
  The site we're on is social media
- robben1234 3y ago
  Social media is an echo chamber for people with nothing better to do that represents a tiny part of population. In real world many industries would gladly disqualify professionals from working at the first hint of screws flying loose. Especially where any threat to safety have high potential to be fatal.
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  I haven’t been on mainstream social media in awhile but it makes me happy to hear there’s such low stigma there. I can only assume this comes from a younger generation of people who have had to deal with unfathomable mental health issues from being raised in the internet era.
- futuroptimist 3y ago
  They are "celebrated" despite the stigma. Also, it's not really celebrated as much as it is accepted and acknowledged.

tiahura 3y ago

I knew one that lost his medical card due to drinking on the job. Under the union contract, they still get 2/3 or 3/4 pay. Lots of trips to a shrink in Chicago. He drove a school bus to pass the time and for extra cash.

computerfriend 3y ago

The article The Madness in our Methods: The crash of Germanwings flight 9525 and our broken aeromedical system covers this topic excellently. https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-methods-the-crash-of-germanwings-flight-9525-and-our-broken-aeromedical-system-5b95abd4fe6d https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-metho...

matheusmoreira 3y ago
> the doctors at Lufthansa’s aeromedical center denied his application on account of his ongoing major depression and medication thereof >the only solution was to ease off the medication > With help from his psychiatrist, Lubitz was eventually able to end treatment, and in July 2009 he was declared fully recovered. > After applying again, the Lufthansa aeromedical center decided to issue him a new medical certificate, but with strings attached: if he ever again suffered from depression, the document said, the certificate would immediately become invalid. Amazing. They basically got a severely depressed patient off his medication and told him they would ruin his childhood dream of flying should he ever suffer and seek treatment again. And then allowed him to fly a plane.

andreareina 3y ago

https://archive.is/oro6v https://archive.is/oro6v

instaheat 3y ago

I've been looking into getting my pilot's license and taking a serious look at the training required for quite some time. Talking with other pilots and students, asking a lot of questions. They are starting to reduce some of the strict requirements and encumbrances placed on Pilots such as this because of the shortages. I'm in the unfortunate position of having a DWI from 2009 and have been told by multiple people in the industry that would hinder my career prospects as a pilot. Essentially, I've got no shot at getting hired by American or any other major airline because of something stupid I did when I was in college 14 years ago. I don't have a drinking problem and am a completely different person. It sucks.

pageandrew 3y ago
Not an airline pilot / medical examiner, but I do read r/flying quite regularly. Your story is not uncommon. The general wisdom on DWIs is that yes it does hurt your chances of getting into airlines, but if it was (1) minor/borderline, (2) a long time ago, and (3) you have shown a pattern of recovery, it is not a career ender.
- instaheat 3y ago
  I am still going to go through the motions and earn my hours, criminal history be damned. I was under .15 at the time, which as I understand it, helps me significantly. Also looking at helicopter/flight medic but for now I am starting back to school in January to finish my AAS in Cybersecurity followed by BS in CS.
askonomm 3y ago
I never understood why in some countries the system never forgets - it's like they want to punish you till death, even after you already served your sentence. In Estonia, no matter how horrific the crime, your record gets wiped after 7 years since you finished serving the sentence (got out of prison / probation ended / paid a fine), allowing for people to move on with their lives.
- gosub100 3y ago

cromka 3y ago

Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live using the LEO, alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box. The latter is being already discussed anyway. A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. In-cabin pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots left working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed. Correct me if I’m wrong, but vast majority of aviation deaths nowadays is caused by human factor, including pilot mistakes. If we can trust electronic voting or remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing. Seems like the predictability of the heavily regulated and standardized aviation makes it a much better candidate for autonomous systems than automotive, and I’d argue that the public has already somewhat OK-ed the latter.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Given the baseline security of these sorts of systems, this is a disaster waiting to happen.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Yeah, we just grounded an entire aircraft fleet for a few years due to systems overriding pilots.
  - cromka 3y ago
    Due to systems not designed properly and with improper regulatory oversight. Also, these systems were overriding these decisions autonomously, not through human intervention. A defeatist take.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      Most incidents start with the systems failing and the pilots being the fallback. It’s not clear how, 1. A remote system would not be immune to this, and 2. How a remote system would be good if the systems are failing and probably producing bad readings

gavinhoward 3y ago

I was grounded by the FAA over a mental health history. I can understand why pilots would say nothing.

kurthr 3y ago

They didn't even bring up being armed in the cockpit: https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captain/ https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captai... That was last month.

fransje26 3y ago
Oh. I think this headline from the article sums it up nicely: > What on earth is wrong with people?

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago

Isn’t this just asscovering? If someone with a documented mental health condition crashes a plane, blame goes to all parties who know of the pilots status. If you don’t have that information in the first place it’s ‘tragic’ and ‘unavoidable’. Maybe it’s time we as a society start understanding risk, because while the information will certainly be ‘in-your-face’ in the event of such an incident, the rate of incidents in total would go down.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
The goal isn't to minimise the number of incidents, it's too minimise insurance premiums.

deleted 3y ago

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John23832 3y ago

Same problem with doctors.

derbOac 3y ago

This has been a known problem for a long time. In fact, psychological test development studies use pilot screening to assess for the ability of a test to detect people who are trying to make themselves look good for exactly this reason. It's a mess and counterproductive.

matrix87 3y ago

All of a sudden, mental health is now a thing. So the FAA needs to change their policies and support the current thing Since mental health became a thing, have we become more mentally healthy as a society? Has it actually accomplished anything of substance? Or is it just a bunch of theater?

deleted 3y ago
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joezydeco 3y ago

The article doesn't cover another facet of the FAA/mental health puzzle: ADHD. There's a whole generation of students that got diagnoses and/or medication in their younger years. Having any of that in your medical record puts you in the same category as the pilots mentioned in this article. Even if you've been off the Adderall for years, it's a mandatory psych eval and cognitive testing. Thousands of dollars in testing and a long wait for an FAA decision. There's been some recent changes, including a new "fast track" to approval if you've been off meds for four years or longer. But there's still paperwork. And the decision is far from guaranteed.

imoverclocked 3y ago
I just chatted with someone two days ago that has been trying to get through the medical process for five years. No details on her case but seriously, the FAA’s 1950’s stance on health is pretty ridiculous. That pilots have had to spend 10s of thousands of dollars just to be cleared, and that this is even expected by this point, is just dumb.
- joezydeco 3y ago
  The cognitive screening process is long. It can take an entire day to complete with multiple personality interviews, computerized tests that strain your processing and reaction time, and a whole slew of other memory and attention tasks. It's a lot for anyone, and putting teenagers through it is cruel. Apparently the FAA is acutely aware of this, in light of a growing shortage of pilots in the pipeline and huge demand from the airlines. It would be more reasonable to use the recommendations of your local CFI and flight school to decide if you have the cognitive skills to fly solo, compared to a neuropsychologist sitting in an office. Hopefully this begins to change soon. What's really ironic is that once you've passed the certification and are sitting in the cockpit, you can have all the caffeine you want. But time-release ADHD medications are a no-no.

gmerc 3y ago

Because the systems are optimizing to avoid political fallout / cover your ass, not best "real world" results. Because that's what the system is about. That's the game rules. It's like saying "human centric AI, twinkle in the eye" and firing everyone over time because the system doesn't actually have a single parameter that would make it's actors optimize for the common good.

searealist 3y ago
What makes you think this is not the result of optimizing for safety?
- gmerc 3y ago
  Eurowings Crash

TrackerFF 3y ago

This is also a problem for professional drivers (truck, taxi, etc.) - as in some countries you will automatically lose your license if you seek help for alcoholism. So what happens is that many of these type of drivers will simply not seek any help, because it is either that or their job / livelihood.

kayxspre 3y ago

In my case, I have to hide the fact I seek treatment for mental health to avoid being denied registration to practice law as a solicitor. While it is not an absolute ground to reject registration, declaring that I have mental health issue would require me to produce medical certificate that I was treated with one, even though it's no longer relevant to present situation Conversely, I have to declare the fact I was treated for medical health at specific military hospital to obtain medical certificate to be presented at the drafting installations. I have to do this for three years until they decided not to bother drafting me and certified that I participated in the draft, but not fit to be one I still seek mental treatment on a quarterly basis, though with myself going freelance, I no longer have to worry that my treatment will be detrimental to employment and work

tiahura 3y ago
In the US, mental problems aren’t an automatic disqualifiet to sitting for the bar, but being evasive with the bar investigators usually is.

P_I_Staker 3y ago

This is a good idea for many reasons. In this day and age professionals must still hide their mental illnesses. Or else.