49 ms·

Australia to ban engineered stone

336 points by bobnamob 3y ago

doingtheiroming 3y ago
I often observe that PPE compliance in the U.K. is dramatically better than it is on the continent where I live. In part I think that’s a result of the concentration of the building contractor business and the (relatively) strong enforcement of workplace regulation at sites of large construction projects. You’d be shocked in the U.K. if you saw someone scaffolding a building without a helmet. In the EU, you’re shocked if they are wearing one.
- aaronmdjones 3y ago
  I live in the UK and used to be an electrician. What you say is for the most part true; on any commercial or industrial site or construction project, the building or site manager is going to come down hard on you if you're not using appropriate PPE. It's a liability and ass-covering thing: if you get injured (or indeed killed), even if it's entirely your fault and would have been avoided by using PPE, the manager is liable, and HSE will bury them. They know this, and they will expel you from the site if you don't comply. That said, it's all a wash in residential. I've seen plenty of plumbers and heating engineers drilling walls without any eye or ear protection. I've seen plenty of heating engineers soldering copper pipes without a mask and in poor ventilation (e.g. tight cupboards). I've even seen other electricians installing meter tails into a live supply without any gloves, standing on conductive surfaces like surface drainage grates.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  Which part of Europe? Ppe is very much mandatory with big fucking signs on every site displaying what is required where i am. And I mean every [legal] site*. A site without a sign invites a lot of questions. When I had my building renovated, the builder tried to work without a sign....no chance! By registering, and displaying the sign, it meant he had to follow the rules. I never saw similar in the uk (for example on a house), but I also wasn't looking, despite labouring for several years there.
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
My kitchen has engineered stone (Silestone). The seller told me that as long as I followed some basic precautions like not putting hot things directly on it, it would last for a long time without visible wear. Basically they sold it as extremely hard, the most durable material. The truth is that 10 years later, treating it very well, the edge is full of chips (some of them rather large) that for all I know appeared spontaneously, without hitting it with anything. In my previous home, a rented flat with a cheap granite countertop, it remained intact after around 10 years of much less careful usage (although, to be frank, it was ugly as hell... But there is aesthetically nice granite as well, I think). I was already decided to not buy engineered stone again because it seems to basically be overhyped crap to scam uninformed people like me with. If apart from that it causes such health hazards... Good riddance if they ban it.
Erratic6576 3y ago
Great. Now ban PFAS products
- isilofi 3y ago
  Dangers from PFAS are mostly speculative and inferred. Silicosis is proven and real. Totally different things.
cracrecry 3y ago
Ridiculous like everything politicians do. They could ban installation that is not precut with machines, or the usage of tools without dust handling but banning the entire field is just crazy. With today technology you can 3d scan the dimensions, water cut with automatic machines and only minor adjustments need to be done on site.
- andrewstuart 3y ago
  Sure. And asbestos is safe if handled correctly. But it never works out that way. Costs are cut. Companies want to make more profit. And who pays? The low paid workers.
  - gorbypark 3y ago
    I spent 15 years as a "low paid worker" doing manual labour, and in my experience (which of course will vary), the lack of following PPE procedures is usually not due to the lack of PPE or procedures. In a factory setting or larger worksite, with managers and supervisors abound, it's relatively easy to enforce PPE standards. On a remote worksite where there is one or two people installing a countertop, for example, it's extremely hard. A company can provide all the PPE needed but it's up to the worker to actually use it. I don't want to apologize for companies, as many will supply the bare minimum/cheapest PPE. Have you ever wore a n95 while doing physical labour? It really sucks. On the other hand, I've worked on job sites where there was an unlimited budget for PPE. Don't like working in an N95? No issues ordering a $1200 battery powered forced air respirator mask. People would still not wear them sometimes. For these reason I agree with banning things like this. Even with the best PPE in the world people are still not going to use it when it's an inconvenience/uncomfortable.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  the industry was given an opportunity to implement improvements. it didn't.
phendrenad2 3y ago
This speaks volumes about the level of confidence that the AU federal government has in its rank-and-file inspectors. Banning something outright is a concession that you aren't in control enough to use finesse, and must bludgeon people into compliance. Pay attention to who shows up to complain about this, those are the ones who stand to gain from a lax policy with leeway for corruption.
guhcampos 3y ago
Any Aussies to confirm this isn’t some sort of lobbying stunt? It does not make much sense to me that engineered stone would be much worse than natural stone on the regard of silicosis, and I highly doubt the natural stone industry is any more compliant in protection equipment and worker safety. This sort of smells like natural stone industry fighting back to recover ground they lost to the engineered stuff, but being on the opposite side of the World it’s impossible for me to understand this beyond conspiracy theorizing.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > Any Aussies to confirm this isn’t some sort of lobbying stunt? Yeah there was a recent visit by rock-rich Croatian foreign ministry that heavy handed its small Aussie counterparts and pressured them on banning a whole industry :)
Hikikomori 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster "The Hawks Nest Tunnel disaster was a large-scale incident of occupational lung disease as the result of the construction of the Hawks Nest Tunnel"
bjt 3y ago
There are more options than just "ban" and "don't ban". You could pass a law imposing strict liability all the way up the supply chain, up to and including the importers. If a worker gets sick, they could sue for damages, maybe even punitive damages, from their employer, any middlemen, and the importer. If you align the incentives right, companies will figure out how to enforce PPE usage.
- batushka3 3y ago
  Thats one of reasons why LLC (Limited Liability Company) was invented.
- fredgrott 3y ago
  then you surrendered enforcement to only those with market exploited money....whose incentive is to fight against rather than enforce it... This is why governments tend to enforce as they tend to minimally align with protecting the individual since they loose tax revenue if they do not...
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  > If a worker gets sick, they could sue for damages, Maybe I’m misreading it, but from the article, comments here, and linked alternative readings (as well as very limited personal experience), the issue could be that the workers themselves are actively not participating in wearing PPE. I know this sounds like blaming the victim, but if that is truly what’s happening (and I’d appreciate information explaining the opposite), why should the workers get to sue someone else? Is the PPE not effective enough? Or are you suggesting that allowing the employee to sue would create incentives for the employers to actually enforce the workers use PPE?
dghughes 3y ago
Silicosis is a type of fibrosis lung disease. My Dad had IPF a type of lung fibrosis disease. Dad worked for the federal government in the Canadian Coast Guard for 35 years. He worked in ship engine rooms or on barges but also had odd jobs like painting. One job was to make boiler filters. He had to use a fluffy powder to make big "patties" flat filters. The powder had asbestos in it. The I in IPF is idiopathic as in "don't know" but I'd say it was the filter powder. So even federal level there are terrible PPE policies or lack of enforcement. I'm sure Dad was under peer pressure or pressured into not caring or toughing it out type of attitude among his co-workers.
hokkos 3y ago
When I had my ceramic counter top installed they first took complete laser measures of the kitchen, installed a temporary wood top and it was made and cut in a facility, I suppose with water jet and full protections, so absolutely no cutting on site with a grinder. Seems a better solution to force that than ban a stone type and let a marginally better other type free to use.
PopAlongKid 3y ago
TIL (U.S.resident) that Australians call a kitchen countertop a bench.
eggy 3y ago
What about coal mining in Australia? Should they ban it too? It produces 80% of their electricity, and a low death rate from direct mining incidents, but a 26% increase in mortality compared to the general population most likely due to respiratory and stress-related issues.[0,1] CWP (Coal Miner's Pneumoconiosis) is the long-term risk vs. the mining accidents, and it involves silicosis too. The US and Australia have lowered these statistics vs. China which is increasing. Many people mix household cleaners that each contain ammonia and chlorine and create poisonous gases, but usually the concentration of the cleaners is sufficiently low enough to be more of a long-term health hazard, however, industrial cleaners can cause death, though rare, as in this case: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/tragic-accidental-death-mixture-cleaning-products-cautionary-warning https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/tragic-accide... The solution is to boost safety practices, heavily fine the offenders, and educate the workers, not ban a product that in its final form is not just a "fashion finish", but a safe, practical, easy-to-clean surface with good durability and dimensionally stable over time. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-19/history-of-safety-in-queensland-mining-industry/101990482 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-19/history-of-safety-in-... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266950/#:~:text=A%2024%2Dyear%20mortality%20surveillance,1996%20%5B52%2C53%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266950/#:~:tex....
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- xxs 3y ago
  need more what-about-ism,
- caf 3y ago
  In 2022, coal-fired electricity was 55.9% of the combined NEM and SWIS generation (and it is trending down).
WaitWaitWha 3y ago
But, can they be imported? Asking because the need for engineered products is not going away, and just because a government wants something banned it does not mean it will be gone as history shown time and time again. My guess is within a few months larger companies will just shift their production out of jurisdiction, and smaller ones go out of business.
- unnouinceput 3y ago
  Quote: "The federal government will also impose a ban on imported engineered stone to provide an "additional layer of enforcement and deterrence at the border", however the date has not been finalised yet."
smileysteve 3y ago
I recently had some countertops redone with a engineered quartz (and recycled glass and shell) veneer; The base was thick MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard). This solves a few things 1. Significantly reduces stone transportation (import, from shop to location) 2. Reduces stone cutting (at 1/8" thickness, much quicker, easier to cut than 2" slab) (easier to fit in tight places, easier to fix with epoxy filler. 3. Reduces waste if and when it is shipped off.
jiggawatts 3y ago
This was caused by an alarming rise of silicosis cases in young “tradies” (Aussie slang for trade workers). The government and various professional bodies tried to enforce the use of PPE when working with this material, but there has been a housing construction boom going on and a lot of corners were cut (hah!), resulting in young immigrant workers especially turning up in hospitals with lung cancer. No matter how carefully you cut this stuff in a shop with a filtered HVAC, water sprays, and well-fitted respirators… there’s always that customer that just needs “one quick adjustment” on-site. One quick cut turns into one per day and a weird chest pain that just won’t go away. So it’s been banned outright. PS: Apparently engineered stone is mostly quartz (silica), whereas other bench top materials are typically other kinds of stone that don’t cause silicosis, or nowhere near at the same rate.
- zeotroph 3y ago
  I was wondering why this material is so bad, it seems to be because it is mostly silica crystals. Without the resin holding it in place such a material wouldn't be possible. 90–93%: 99.9% pure silica in grits and powder form constitutes; 7–10%: Matrix of unsaturated polyester resin with catalysts to help with ambient temperature curing, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_stone Technically you can safely handle it, just like technically you can have lead or even asbestos in a lot of places. But some poorly paid worker ends up with ruined health in the end, so I can totally understand the ban.
- pjscott 3y ago
  One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason, their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.
  - stubish 3y ago
    This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow. Especially when a large number of workers are self employed. You can send them bankrupt with a penalty, but then have to support the disabled worker with social security and health care.
geetee 3y ago
I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- saxman001 3y ago
  Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. My job involves working with silica powders and I can really only handle about 20-30 minutes decked out in my bunny suit, respirator, over eye goggles, gloves and disposable sleeves before I need to take a break for air. This is in a climate controlled environment with a minimally physical set of tasks. Having workers wear PPE is the worst, last resort form of protection. Solutions like switching to safer materials and improving ventilation work much better in practice.
  - insaneirish 3y ago
    > Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.
    - saxman0001 3y ago
      How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you keep your face shaved baby smooth at all times?
      - 3y ago
Freedom2 3y ago
I'm not a huge fan of government overreach like this. Workers should have refused to work with the material if it were truly dangerous, and the free market would have eventually pushed engineered stone out, giving way to innovation for a better, safer material.
- jay_kyburz 3y ago
  The trade union movement says ban engineered stone or we will Media Release - October 24, 2023 https://www.actu.org.au/media-release/the-trade-union-movement-says-ban-engineered-stone-or-we-will/ https://www.actu.org.au/media-release/the-trade-union-moveme...
- threeseed 3y ago
  a) It is truly dangerous. On par with asbestos. b) At least here in Australia the government any by extension taxpayers will have an increased health care burden because of this. Therefore it is entirely justified to limit its use.
  - umvi 3y ago
    My understanding is that a countertop won't release silica dust unless you cut it with power tools, unlike exposed asbestos which releases fibers with much less effort.
    - unclekev 3y ago
      Correct. Asbestos degrades over time and releases fibers with almost no effort/interaction with the material. Engineered stone only releases dangerous particles when cut. It does not degrade. They both require special care when being disposed of, but they are not "on par"
- darklycan51 3y ago
  "the free market would have eventually pushed engineered stone out" Lol.
- thescobey 3y ago
umvi 3y ago
Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.
- isilofi 3y ago
  Yes. They should have just banned or limited dry cutting. Cutting stone wet, with running water, produces practically no dust whatsoever.
- archontes 3y ago
  Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?
  - insaneirish 3y ago
    As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.
    - amluto 3y ago
      I’ve watched a contractor cut holes in a countertop in the field. They did it wet. I’d still wear safety glasses if I were doing this, but IIRC there was no dust. I’ve never seen someone cut a countertop on site. They do it in a shop. (Why didn’t Australia instead ban all countertop cutting in shops that doesn’t use dustless tools?) Hmm, I just looked it up. Home Depot sells the tool for under $30.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        I made an at home modification to our stone counter top when replacing the stove/oven. The new unit was 1/4" too wide. I did the whole tenting and wet cutting, but not nearly wet enough for the obvious reason. I was in full spaceman suit though, as I was sure the amount of water wasn't going to cut it. I would NOT recommend this to anyone though. At the time, the turn time and expense of having the counter removed, altered at a proper shop, redelivered and installed was prohibitively expensive.
legitster 3y ago
> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are not going to ban natural stone countertops, I don't get why the industry was not allowed to pursue low-silica engineered stone that met or exceeded real stone.
- ezzaf 3y ago
  Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-concerns-in-engineered-stone-alternatives/103185450 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-co...
  - legitster 3y ago
    From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products despite it being safer. And that's probably because it's easier to cut in the field so people do it more often.
    - prmoustache 3y ago
      Natural stone are expensive and a luxury items. They are not the alternative to engineered stone really. Engineered stone are bought by middle-class, and thus in much higher number. The alternative being usually plain wood.
insaneirish 3y ago
[flagged]
- insaneirish 3y ago
  I'm not sure why I'm getting these downvotes, but my point is that concrete is far more of a silica containing building material than engineered stone but for which there is probably far less political gumption to meaningfully regulate.
  - rconti 3y ago
    Probably because the ban is likely better thought out than a flippant comment that, I guess, assumes the powerful anti-silica lobby (?) is much stronger than the poor downtrodden anti-concrete lobby (??).
  - defrost 3y ago
    There is solid evidence in Australia associating a sharp rise in silicosis in tradesmen with the use of engineered stone. Is there any such evidence in Australia associating such a thing with concrete at the same high risk levels? This is a data driven decision. You appear to have made a quip unsupported by medical data.
    - insaneirish 3y ago
      I was gonna go with "Australia is not an island" but, well, I think we can see the problem in that statement. :-) In the United States, OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) has implemented strict guidelines regarding silica (https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/fy16_sh-29661-sh6_SilicaTrainingReferences.pdf https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/fy16_sh-296...). Silica is highly present in things like concrete, so it is weird to me that something other than concrete would be singled out. > You appear to have made a quip unsupported by medical data. No, I have not. The "quip" is ignoring the other sources of silica while singling out this one particular one.
      - 3y ago
DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
fair dinkum mate. I reckon we got enough rocks scattered all over the country as is.
zaphirplane 3y ago
No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber
- avar 3y ago
  The best alternative isn't even listed: stainless steel. There's a reason commercial kitchens prefer it. It can also me cheaper, as you don't need a solid slab of it, a 1-3mm plate of stainless glued to MDF will do.
- arealaccount 3y ago
  I've had weird good luck with concrete, it was poured thick enough that the weight was causing the kitchen to sag. The house was being sold by flippers trying to dress up a kitchen with structural mold issues, they thought concrete would be a cheap way to hide the damage.
- bitbang 3y ago
  Concrete isn't silly at all. (Google it) I actually prefer it to most of the other options.
  - Yodel0914 3y ago
    Isn't the problem with concrete that it's porous?
    - ChoGGi 3y ago
      There's food safe concrete sealers.
- Yodel0914 3y ago
  Anecdotally, we have laminate benchtops which have been in place for ~30 years (long before we bought the house) and they're pretty much flawless, despite being treated pretty roughly. We're having the kitchen re-done soon and will go with laminate again.
jbjbjbjb 3y ago
My instinct is to distrust messing around with stones. Probably not a well informed take but since learning about asbestos I’m distrusting mineral wool insulation, and now this.
gimmeThaBeet 3y ago
I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a water conservation angle to it, but there was discussion of using water for some measure of dust suppression, and they just didn't have it. So is this basically what we would call quartz countertops in the states? I can't say that I've heard the term engineered stone. Preaching to the choir but feels like this stuff should be phased out yesterday. The PPE is almost beside the point, though it feels lower h hyprocrite to me maybe because its closer to home. There's so many resources that inflict a toll e.g. metals coffee palm oil, but you don't think about them since the people are halfway around the world.
- dbcurtis 3y ago
  Installers and the folks back in the shops that cut the slabs for a particular job. Many are young, hardworking trades with limited English trying to give their young families a better life. Very sad. They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.
  - Incipient 3y ago
    Don't sensationalise it with "hard-working people with limited English". That's definitely not the people that were interviewed for media pieces here at least. >They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either. That's the issue. It wasn't well known or well talked about, and proper safety wasn't put in place. Bloody hell wheat is both a drowning risk AND an explosive. Hell better ban that too!
    - dbcurtis 3y ago
      Maybe not for the media piece here, in the best HN tradition, I didn't read it. I am talking from personal experience. I met the installers and visited the shop where the granite counter tops for my kitchen were cut. Hard working guys, not great English. I respect their hustle and attitude -- I didn't start with much of anything, either. It really does sadden me to think what has happened to many of them. As for not knowing, well, we humans been cutting stone for a long time and know the dust isn't good for you.
LispSporks22 3y ago
Seems like you should just wear a dust mask
BonoboIO 3y ago
Engineered stone ... why did the article not explain what is in detail?
- deelowe 3y ago
  "quartz" countertops.
- chihuahua 3y ago
  In the U.S., Corian is a popular brand of engineered stone. Pretty common for kitchens and bathrooms.
  - alexjurkiewicz 3y ago
    Corian isn't engineered stone under the Australian definition. It's explicitly mentioned as a safe(r) alternative.
nothacking 3y ago
Silica is one of the most common minerals on earth. Any type of stone countertop has a potentially dangerous amount of inhaled. Just use a dust mask when cutting/grinding stone or when around people who are. If anything, synthetic countertops could (but currently is not) be made to have very low levels of silica, but people should still not be breathing them in.
- jackvalentine 3y ago
  Do you really think this wasn't considered?
stainablesteel 3y ago
looks like the appropriate time and place for a safety standard, strange decision
unclekev 3y ago
I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. I really don't get it. This whole "But we tried to enforce the safety standards on the industry" is a load of nonsense - How many businesses got fined or shut down for unsafe practices that caused silicosis for their staff? None. The cycle will continue, and we'll be back here in 10 years when the "safe alternatives" are getting banned.
- engineer_22 3y ago
  It's really frustrating to be bathing in these holier-than-thou attitudes on the Internet these days. I've noticed the language on social media is also getting worse. I really enjoy the people you can meet on the internet, but the flippant disrespect is really hard for me to accept as normal. OP your comment is not the worst of them, but it seems to be indicative of a trend. I wish you well.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    It is a kind of "cope" mechanism I think. One is essentially blaming the victims so that you won't get depressed. In the extreme case they only feel sorry for animals or small children, since they are always innocent.
- dantiberian 3y ago
  From the report (page 56): Exposure to RCS from engineered stone causes silicosis typified by a faster onset and more rapid progression than that caused by RCS [Respirable crystalline silica] from other sources, including natural stone. When engineered stone is processed, the dust generated contains higher levels of RCS, and that RCS has different physical and chemical properties that likely contribute to the more rapid and severe disease. There is also evidence to suggest that other components of engineered stone may contribute to the toxic effects of engineered stone dust, either alone or by exacerbating the effects of RCS. ... The increased risks posed by RCS from engineered stone, increased rate of silicosis diagnosis amongst engineered stone workers, and the faster and more severe disease progression amongst this group, combined with a multi-faceted failure of this industry to comply with the model WHS laws means that continued work with engineered stone poses an unacceptable risk to workers. The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...
thanatos519 3y ago
I just got an engineered stone counter installed. No wonder my pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is acting up!
an_aparallel 3y ago
this is so dumb... quarry workers probably get silicosis...from cutting natural stone? MDF is still legal - and is horrible material *most building materials are toxic wtf has been achieved here? Seems like someone has buddies in industry and has lobbied for a ban on offshore produced building material to keep "honest local industries afloat"...ffs.
- PickledHotdog 3y ago
  Trade unions were involved in the push for the ban. So, rather than cynical motives, it might actually just be regular old "the health and safety of workers" behind it.
throwaway69123 3y ago
They should have just banned with the same penalties in this new law all in situ manual cutting of engineered stone, and instituted strict regulations on automated factory cutting.
webprofusion 3y ago
This is good news. Wood is more sustainable and can be more easily repaired and refinished anyway, the problem continues though is if it's replaced by other types of stone. The root problem is obviously lack of protective equipment being used, but that's a universal workplace safety issue and that requires stricter laws.
- blindriver 3y ago
  Saw dust causes lung cancer, so we should definitely outlaw using wood.
  - throwaway0665 3y ago
    Engineered woods like MDF use adhesives that contain formaldehyde which is a possible carcinogen. But people are dropping dead in their 30s from working with MDF (even if it is dangerous)
tomlockwood 3y ago
I work for one of the union organisations (the ACTU) that pushed for this ban. Software devs are notoriously anti-union. Software companies notoriously have huge cash reserves that didn't go into the pockets of those devs. Join your union. If you're in Australia you can start the process, here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/ https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/
- jackvalentine 3y ago
  Solidarity brother, from a Professionals Australia member.
  - tomlockwood 3y ago
    Solidarity forever!
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Are software devs who join unions getting paid more than those who do the classic either: (a) 2 year hops or (b) find a company that gives good rises to take you above market rate.
  - tomlockwood 3y ago
    The good news is you can do both of those things and still be a member of a union! And additionally, there's lots of evidence to suggest that union members get paid more https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-earn-26-more-than-non-members-per-week-heres-why/ https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-... Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my union, I already get paid a lot! Bosses love that attitude.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      If I am the only one at my company who is in a union, how does the union help me negotiate more salary? Or does it rely on enough people at my company joining?
Hawxy 3y ago
It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.
- hereme888 3y ago
  Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?
  - lll-o-lll 3y ago
    Also, bring back Asbestos, properly handled it is perfectly safe. Radium also gets a bad rap from the “think of the children” brigade. And don’t get me started on leaded fuel! What an overreach from the government on that one! How dare these union thugs get in the way of clear economic progression that provides far more benefit than harm!
  - mitemte 3y ago
    This is probably going to cause the price of large format porcelain bench tops down. They have less silica content than artificial stone and granite. I believe they are also cut to size off-site.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      You mean up, right? Forcing demand into a product drives the price up.
      - account42 3y ago
        Only short-term unless the supply is static.
kragen 3y ago
imagine if we'd had these people around in the neolithic; it's well-known that potters often came down with silicosis from exposure to the silica in their clay bodies they would have banned pottery also isn't concrete technically 'engineered stone' i'm puzzled how breathing granite dust instead of so-called engineered stone dust is supposed to be better for you
- Ekaros 3y ago
  My guess is that evolution in general has adapted on some level to dust from granite. It was around before land based animals. Just like it has adapted to trace quantities of other poisonous and harmful stuff. Engineered stone might not be exact analogy granite dust, but different in way that prevent these mechanism to be effective.
  - kragen 3y ago
    the studies cited in other parts of this thread found granite dust to be more damaging to lungs, not less so
refurb 3y ago
Interestingly much of the engineered stone comes from Chinese factories.
- throwaway0665 3y ago
  Interestingly or unsurprisingly considering we're still accidentally importing building materials and even toys filled with asbestos from China. Add vapes to that it feels like there is almost zero regulation on importation of dangerous goods. [1]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/asbestos-found-in-imported-toys-and-building-materials/100604278 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/asbestos-found-in-imp... [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/australian-building-sites-contaminated-with-chinese-asbestos/7166674 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/australian-building-s...
Ekaros 3y ago
Is this stuff really so loved that we absolutely must have it, even if we aren't entirely sure what in it causes these effects? Is there really absolutely no other options available? That is we will now go hungry as there is no more tables in world to prepare our food on...
- twic 3y ago
  I'm strongly in favour of banning engineered stone countertops because they are extremely tacky.
- rob74 3y ago
  Engineered stone is cheaper than "real" stone (granite) and sturdier than other alternatives (mostly wood-based materials). But no, the world won't end because of this ban. What people are getting worked up about is that stone has been worked on for centuries, and will also keep being worked on in the future, and there are proven methods of preventing silicosis while working on it (wearing PPE, vacuuming up the dust ASAP etc.), but the Australian government chose not to do anything about the culture of ignoring the dangers and instead took the short-sighted alternative of banning just one of the many possible causes of silicosis...
  - katbyte 3y ago
    Ppe is available and the dangers known and in a short time there was a huge spike in sick workers starting shortly after it’s introduction . It’s clearly more dangerous stuff to work with then other materials that were in use. It’s not short sighted to save lives
dukeofdoom 3y ago
Engineered stone looks awful fake, changes color overtime, and can be damaged by a hot pan. Since its upsold as being better than the real thing often. There's a consumer fraud aspect to it too. I wouldn't ban it since there might be some situations where its the better product to use, and not just cheaper.
philjohn 3y ago
My kitchen has engineered stone, and the people who came to fit it took precautions - all cutting was done outside (it was raining, but they had a marquee that went up), heavy duty vacuums to suck up any dust, wet cutting and wearing the proper PPE. There are already laws and regulations about employers having to provide the proper PPE - why not enforce that strongly instead of just outright banning a particular item?

336 points by bobnamob 3y ago

I often observe that PPE compliance in the U.K. is dramatically better than it is on the continent where I live. In part I think that’s a result of the concentration of the building contractor business and the (relatively) strong enforcement of workplace regulation at sites of large construction projects. You’d be shocked in the U.K. if you saw someone scaffolding a building without a helmet. In the EU, you’re shocked if they are wearing one.

aaronmdjones 3y ago
I live in the UK and used to be an electrician. What you say is for the most part true; on any commercial or industrial site or construction project, the building or site manager is going to come down hard on you if you're not using appropriate PPE. It's a liability and ass-covering thing: if you get injured (or indeed killed), even if it's entirely your fault and would have been avoided by using PPE, the manager is liable, and HSE will bury them. They know this, and they will expel you from the site if you don't comply. That said, it's all a wash in residential. I've seen plenty of plumbers and heating engineers drilling walls without any eye or ear protection. I've seen plenty of heating engineers soldering copper pipes without a mask and in poor ventilation (e.g. tight cupboards). I've even seen other electricians installing meter tails into a live supply without any gloves, standing on conductive surfaces like surface drainage grates.
InCityDreams 3y ago
Which part of Europe? Ppe is very much mandatory with big fucking signs on every site displaying what is required where i am. And I mean every [legal] site*. A site without a sign invites a lot of questions. When I had my building renovated, the builder tried to work without a sign....no chance! By registering, and displaying the sign, it meant he had to follow the rules. I never saw similar in the uk (for example on a house), but I also wasn't looking, despite labouring for several years there.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

My kitchen has engineered stone (Silestone). The seller told me that as long as I followed some basic precautions like not putting hot things directly on it, it would last for a long time without visible wear. Basically they sold it as extremely hard, the most durable material. The truth is that 10 years later, treating it very well, the edge is full of chips (some of them rather large) that for all I know appeared spontaneously, without hitting it with anything. In my previous home, a rented flat with a cheap granite countertop, it remained intact after around 10 years of much less careful usage (although, to be frank, it was ugly as hell... But there is aesthetically nice granite as well, I think). I was already decided to not buy engineered stone again because it seems to basically be overhyped crap to scam uninformed people like me with. If apart from that it causes such health hazards... Good riddance if they ban it.

Erratic6576 3y ago

Great. Now ban PFAS products

isilofi 3y ago
Dangers from PFAS are mostly speculative and inferred. Silicosis is proven and real. Totally different things.

cracrecry 3y ago

Ridiculous like everything politicians do. They could ban installation that is not precut with machines, or the usage of tools without dust handling but banning the entire field is just crazy. With today technology you can 3d scan the dimensions, water cut with automatic machines and only minor adjustments need to be done on site.

andrewstuart 3y ago
Sure. And asbestos is safe if handled correctly. But it never works out that way. Costs are cut. Companies want to make more profit. And who pays? The low paid workers.
- gorbypark 3y ago
  I spent 15 years as a "low paid worker" doing manual labour, and in my experience (which of course will vary), the lack of following PPE procedures is usually not due to the lack of PPE or procedures. In a factory setting or larger worksite, with managers and supervisors abound, it's relatively easy to enforce PPE standards. On a remote worksite where there is one or two people installing a countertop, for example, it's extremely hard. A company can provide all the PPE needed but it's up to the worker to actually use it. I don't want to apologize for companies, as many will supply the bare minimum/cheapest PPE. Have you ever wore a n95 while doing physical labour? It really sucks. On the other hand, I've worked on job sites where there was an unlimited budget for PPE. Don't like working in an N95? No issues ordering a $1200 battery powered forced air respirator mask. People would still not wear them sometimes. For these reason I agree with banning things like this. Even with the best PPE in the world people are still not going to use it when it's an inconvenience/uncomfortable.
cyanydeez 3y ago
the industry was given an opportunity to implement improvements. it didn't.

phendrenad2 3y ago

This speaks volumes about the level of confidence that the AU federal government has in its rank-and-file inspectors. Banning something outright is a concession that you aren't in control enough to use finesse, and must bludgeon people into compliance. Pay attention to who shows up to complain about this, those are the ones who stand to gain from a lax policy with leeway for corruption.

guhcampos 3y ago

Any Aussies to confirm this isn’t some sort of lobbying stunt? It does not make much sense to me that engineered stone would be much worse than natural stone on the regard of silicosis, and I highly doubt the natural stone industry is any more compliant in protection equipment and worker safety. This sort of smells like natural stone industry fighting back to recover ground they lost to the engineered stuff, but being on the opposite side of the World it’s impossible for me to understand this beyond conspiracy theorizing.

medo-bear 3y ago
> Any Aussies to confirm this isn’t some sort of lobbying stunt? Yeah there was a recent visit by rock-rich Croatian foreign ministry that heavy handed its small Aussie counterparts and pressured them on banning a whole industry :)

Hikikomori 3y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster "The Hawks Nest Tunnel disaster was a large-scale incident of occupational lung disease as the result of the construction of the Hawks Nest Tunnel"

bjt 3y ago

There are more options than just "ban" and "don't ban". You could pass a law imposing strict liability all the way up the supply chain, up to and including the importers. If a worker gets sick, they could sue for damages, maybe even punitive damages, from their employer, any middlemen, and the importer. If you align the incentives right, companies will figure out how to enforce PPE usage.

batushka3 3y ago
Thats one of reasons why LLC (Limited Liability Company) was invented.
fredgrott 3y ago
then you surrendered enforcement to only those with market exploited money....whose incentive is to fight against rather than enforce it... This is why governments tend to enforce as they tend to minimally align with protecting the individual since they loose tax revenue if they do not...
LeafItAlone 3y ago
> If a worker gets sick, they could sue for damages, Maybe I’m misreading it, but from the article, comments here, and linked alternative readings (as well as very limited personal experience), the issue could be that the workers themselves are actively not participating in wearing PPE. I know this sounds like blaming the victim, but if that is truly what’s happening (and I’d appreciate information explaining the opposite), why should the workers get to sue someone else? Is the PPE not effective enough? Or are you suggesting that allowing the employee to sue would create incentives for the employers to actually enforce the workers use PPE?

dghughes 3y ago

Silicosis is a type of fibrosis lung disease. My Dad had IPF a type of lung fibrosis disease. Dad worked for the federal government in the Canadian Coast Guard for 35 years. He worked in ship engine rooms or on barges but also had odd jobs like painting. One job was to make boiler filters. He had to use a fluffy powder to make big "patties" flat filters. The powder had asbestos in it. The I in IPF is idiopathic as in "don't know" but I'd say it was the filter powder. So even federal level there are terrible PPE policies or lack of enforcement. I'm sure Dad was under peer pressure or pressured into not caring or toughing it out type of attitude among his co-workers.

hokkos 3y ago

When I had my ceramic counter top installed they first took complete laser measures of the kitchen, installed a temporary wood top and it was made and cut in a facility, I suppose with water jet and full protections, so absolutely no cutting on site with a grinder. Seems a better solution to force that than ban a stone type and let a marginally better other type free to use.

PopAlongKid 3y ago

TIL (U.S.resident) that Australians call a kitchen countertop a bench.

eggy 3y ago

What about coal mining in Australia? Should they ban it too? It produces 80% of their electricity, and a low death rate from direct mining incidents, but a 26% increase in mortality compared to the general population most likely due to respiratory and stress-related issues.[0,1] CWP (Coal Miner's Pneumoconiosis) is the long-term risk vs. the mining accidents, and it involves silicosis too. The US and Australia have lowered these statistics vs. China which is increasing. Many people mix household cleaners that each contain ammonia and chlorine and create poisonous gases, but usually the concentration of the cleaners is sufficiently low enough to be more of a long-term health hazard, however, industrial cleaners can cause death, though rare, as in this case: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/tragic-accidental-death-mixture-cleaning-products-cautionary-warning https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/tragic-accide... The solution is to boost safety practices, heavily fine the offenders, and educate the workers, not ban a product that in its final form is not just a "fashion finish", but a safe, practical, easy-to-clean surface with good durability and dimensionally stable over time. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-19/history-of-safety-in-queensland-mining-industry/101990482 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-19/history-of-safety-in-... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266950/#:~:text=A%2024%2Dyear%20mortality%20surveillance,1996%20%5B52%2C53%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266950/#:~:tex....

deleted 3y ago
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xxs 3y ago
need more what-about-ism,
caf 3y ago
In 2022, coal-fired electricity was 55.9% of the combined NEM and SWIS generation (and it is trending down).

WaitWaitWha 3y ago

But, can they be imported? Asking because the need for engineered products is not going away, and just because a government wants something banned it does not mean it will be gone as history shown time and time again. My guess is within a few months larger companies will just shift their production out of jurisdiction, and smaller ones go out of business.

unnouinceput 3y ago
Quote: "The federal government will also impose a ban on imported engineered stone to provide an "additional layer of enforcement and deterrence at the border", however the date has not been finalised yet."

smileysteve 3y ago

I recently had some countertops redone with a engineered quartz (and recycled glass and shell) veneer; The base was thick MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard). This solves a few things 1. Significantly reduces stone transportation (import, from shop to location) 2. Reduces stone cutting (at 1/8" thickness, much quicker, easier to cut than 2" slab) (easier to fit in tight places, easier to fix with epoxy filler. 3. Reduces waste if and when it is shipped off.

jiggawatts 3y ago

This was caused by an alarming rise of silicosis cases in young “tradies” (Aussie slang for trade workers). The government and various professional bodies tried to enforce the use of PPE when working with this material, but there has been a housing construction boom going on and a lot of corners were cut (hah!), resulting in young immigrant workers especially turning up in hospitals with lung cancer. No matter how carefully you cut this stuff in a shop with a filtered HVAC, water sprays, and well-fitted respirators… there’s always that customer that just needs “one quick adjustment” on-site. One quick cut turns into one per day and a weird chest pain that just won’t go away. So it’s been banned outright. PS: Apparently engineered stone is mostly quartz (silica), whereas other bench top materials are typically other kinds of stone that don’t cause silicosis, or nowhere near at the same rate.

zeotroph 3y ago
I was wondering why this material is so bad, it seems to be because it is mostly silica crystals. Without the resin holding it in place such a material wouldn't be possible. 90–93%: 99.9% pure silica in grits and powder form constitutes; 7–10%: Matrix of unsaturated polyester resin with catalysts to help with ambient temperature curing, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_stone Technically you can safely handle it, just like technically you can have lead or even asbestos in a lot of places. But some poorly paid worker ends up with ruined health in the end, so I can totally understand the ban.
pjscott 3y ago
One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason, their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.
- stubish 3y ago
  This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow. Especially when a large number of workers are self employed. You can send them bankrupt with a penalty, but then have to support the disabled worker with social security and health care.

geetee 3y ago

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

deleted 3y ago
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saxman001 3y ago
Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. My job involves working with silica powders and I can really only handle about 20-30 minutes decked out in my bunny suit, respirator, over eye goggles, gloves and disposable sleeves before I need to take a break for air. This is in a climate controlled environment with a minimally physical set of tasks. Having workers wear PPE is the worst, last resort form of protection. Solutions like switching to safer materials and improving ventilation work much better in practice.
- insaneirish 3y ago
  > Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.
  - saxman0001 3y ago
    How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you keep your face shaved baby smooth at all times?
    - 3y ago

Freedom2 3y ago

I'm not a huge fan of government overreach like this. Workers should have refused to work with the material if it were truly dangerous, and the free market would have eventually pushed engineered stone out, giving way to innovation for a better, safer material.

jay_kyburz 3y ago
The trade union movement says ban engineered stone or we will Media Release - October 24, 2023 https://www.actu.org.au/media-release/the-trade-union-movement-says-ban-engineered-stone-or-we-will/ https://www.actu.org.au/media-release/the-trade-union-moveme...
threeseed 3y ago
a) It is truly dangerous. On par with asbestos. b) At least here in Australia the government any by extension taxpayers will have an increased health care burden because of this. Therefore it is entirely justified to limit its use.
- umvi 3y ago
  My understanding is that a countertop won't release silica dust unless you cut it with power tools, unlike exposed asbestos which releases fibers with much less effort.
  - unclekev 3y ago
    Correct. Asbestos degrades over time and releases fibers with almost no effort/interaction with the material. Engineered stone only releases dangerous particles when cut. It does not degrade. They both require special care when being disposed of, but they are not "on par"
darklycan51 3y ago
"the free market would have eventually pushed engineered stone out" Lol.
thescobey 3y ago

umvi 3y ago

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

isilofi 3y ago
Yes. They should have just banned or limited dry cutting. Cutting stone wet, with running water, produces practically no dust whatsoever.
archontes 3y ago
Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?
- insaneirish 3y ago
  As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.
  - amluto 3y ago
    I’ve watched a contractor cut holes in a countertop in the field. They did it wet. I’d still wear safety glasses if I were doing this, but IIRC there was no dust. I’ve never seen someone cut a countertop on site. They do it in a shop. (Why didn’t Australia instead ban all countertop cutting in shops that doesn’t use dustless tools?) Hmm, I just looked it up. Home Depot sells the tool for under $30.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I made an at home modification to our stone counter top when replacing the stove/oven. The new unit was 1/4" too wide. I did the whole tenting and wet cutting, but not nearly wet enough for the obvious reason. I was in full spaceman suit though, as I was sure the amount of water wasn't going to cut it. I would NOT recommend this to anyone though. At the time, the turn time and expense of having the counter removed, altered at a proper shop, redelivered and installed was prohibitively expensive.

legitster 3y ago

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are not going to ban natural stone countertops, I don't get why the industry was not allowed to pursue low-silica engineered stone that met or exceeded real stone.

ezzaf 3y ago
Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-concerns-in-engineered-stone-alternatives/103185450 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/study-finds-safety-co...
- legitster 3y ago
  From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products despite it being safer. And that's probably because it's easier to cut in the field so people do it more often.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Natural stone are expensive and a luxury items. They are not the alternative to engineered stone really. Engineered stone are bought by middle-class, and thus in much higher number. The alternative being usually plain wood.

insaneirish 3y ago

[flagged]

insaneirish 3y ago
I'm not sure why I'm getting these downvotes, but my point is that concrete is far more of a silica containing building material than engineered stone but for which there is probably far less political gumption to meaningfully regulate.
- rconti 3y ago
  Probably because the ban is likely better thought out than a flippant comment that, I guess, assumes the powerful anti-silica lobby (?) is much stronger than the poor downtrodden anti-concrete lobby (??).
- defrost 3y ago
  There is solid evidence in Australia associating a sharp rise in silicosis in tradesmen with the use of engineered stone. Is there any such evidence in Australia associating such a thing with concrete at the same high risk levels? This is a data driven decision. You appear to have made a quip unsupported by medical data.
  - insaneirish 3y ago
    I was gonna go with "Australia is not an island" but, well, I think we can see the problem in that statement. :-) In the United States, OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) has implemented strict guidelines regarding silica (https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/fy16_sh-29661-sh6_SilicaTrainingReferences.pdf https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/fy16_sh-296...). Silica is highly present in things like concrete, so it is weird to me that something other than concrete would be singled out. > You appear to have made a quip unsupported by medical data. No, I have not. The "quip" is ignoring the other sources of silica while singling out this one particular one.
    - 3y ago

DyslexicAtheist 3y ago

fair dinkum mate. I reckon we got enough rocks scattered all over the country as is.

zaphirplane 3y ago

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

avar 3y ago
The best alternative isn't even listed: stainless steel. There's a reason commercial kitchens prefer it. It can also me cheaper, as you don't need a solid slab of it, a 1-3mm plate of stainless glued to MDF will do.
arealaccount 3y ago
I've had weird good luck with concrete, it was poured thick enough that the weight was causing the kitchen to sag. The house was being sold by flippers trying to dress up a kitchen with structural mold issues, they thought concrete would be a cheap way to hide the damage.
bitbang 3y ago
Concrete isn't silly at all. (Google it) I actually prefer it to most of the other options.
- Yodel0914 3y ago
  Isn't the problem with concrete that it's porous?
  - ChoGGi 3y ago
    There's food safe concrete sealers.
Yodel0914 3y ago
Anecdotally, we have laminate benchtops which have been in place for ~30 years (long before we bought the house) and they're pretty much flawless, despite being treated pretty roughly. We're having the kitchen re-done soon and will go with laminate again.

jbjbjbjb 3y ago

My instinct is to distrust messing around with stones. Probably not a well informed take but since learning about asbestos I’m distrusting mineral wool insulation, and now this.

gimmeThaBeet 3y ago

I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a water conservation angle to it, but there was discussion of using water for some measure of dust suppression, and they just didn't have it. So is this basically what we would call quartz countertops in the states? I can't say that I've heard the term engineered stone. Preaching to the choir but feels like this stuff should be phased out yesterday. The PPE is almost beside the point, though it feels lower h hyprocrite to me maybe because its closer to home. There's so many resources that inflict a toll e.g. metals coffee palm oil, but you don't think about them since the people are halfway around the world.

dbcurtis 3y ago
Installers and the folks back in the shops that cut the slabs for a particular job. Many are young, hardworking trades with limited English trying to give their young families a better life. Very sad. They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.
- Incipient 3y ago
  Don't sensationalise it with "hard-working people with limited English". That's definitely not the people that were interviewed for media pieces here at least. >They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either. That's the issue. It wasn't well known or well talked about, and proper safety wasn't put in place. Bloody hell wheat is both a drowning risk AND an explosive. Hell better ban that too!
  - dbcurtis 3y ago
    Maybe not for the media piece here, in the best HN tradition, I didn't read it. I am talking from personal experience. I met the installers and visited the shop where the granite counter tops for my kitchen were cut. Hard working guys, not great English. I respect their hustle and attitude -- I didn't start with much of anything, either. It really does sadden me to think what has happened to many of them. As for not knowing, well, we humans been cutting stone for a long time and know the dust isn't good for you.

LispSporks22 3y ago

Seems like you should just wear a dust mask

BonoboIO 3y ago

Engineered stone ... why did the article not explain what is in detail?

deelowe 3y ago
"quartz" countertops.
chihuahua 3y ago
In the U.S., Corian is a popular brand of engineered stone. Pretty common for kitchens and bathrooms.
- alexjurkiewicz 3y ago
  Corian isn't engineered stone under the Australian definition. It's explicitly mentioned as a safe(r) alternative.

nothacking 3y ago

Silica is one of the most common minerals on earth. Any type of stone countertop has a potentially dangerous amount of inhaled. Just use a dust mask when cutting/grinding stone or when around people who are. If anything, synthetic countertops could (but currently is not) be made to have very low levels of silica, but people should still not be breathing them in.

jackvalentine 3y ago
Do you really think this wasn't considered?

stainablesteel 3y ago

looks like the appropriate time and place for a safety standard, strange decision

unclekev 3y ago

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. I really don't get it. This whole "But we tried to enforce the safety standards on the industry" is a load of nonsense - How many businesses got fined or shut down for unsafe practices that caused silicosis for their staff? None. The cycle will continue, and we'll be back here in 10 years when the "safe alternatives" are getting banned.

engineer_22 3y ago
It's really frustrating to be bathing in these holier-than-thou attitudes on the Internet these days. I've noticed the language on social media is also getting worse. I really enjoy the people you can meet on the internet, but the flippant disrespect is really hard for me to accept as normal. OP your comment is not the worst of them, but it seems to be indicative of a trend. I wish you well.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  It is a kind of "cope" mechanism I think. One is essentially blaming the victims so that you won't get depressed. In the extreme case they only feel sorry for animals or small children, since they are always innocent.
dantiberian 3y ago
From the report (page 56): Exposure to RCS from engineered stone causes silicosis typified by a faster onset and more rapid progression than that caused by RCS [Respirable crystalline silica] from other sources, including natural stone. When engineered stone is processed, the dust generated contains higher levels of RCS, and that RCS has different physical and chemical properties that likely contribute to the more rapid and severe disease. There is also evidence to suggest that other components of engineered stone may contribute to the toxic effects of engineered stone dust, either alone or by exacerbating the effects of RCS. ... The increased risks posed by RCS from engineered stone, increased rate of silicosis diagnosis amongst engineered stone workers, and the faster and more severe disease progression amongst this group, combined with a multi-faceted failure of this industry to comply with the model WHS laws means that continued work with engineered stone poses an unacceptable risk to workers. The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...

thanatos519 3y ago

I just got an engineered stone counter installed. No wonder my pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is acting up!

an_aparallel 3y ago

this is so dumb... quarry workers probably get silicosis...from cutting natural stone? MDF is still legal - and is horrible material *most building materials are toxic wtf has been achieved here? Seems like someone has buddies in industry and has lobbied for a ban on offshore produced building material to keep "honest local industries afloat"...ffs.

PickledHotdog 3y ago
Trade unions were involved in the push for the ban. So, rather than cynical motives, it might actually just be regular old "the health and safety of workers" behind it.

throwaway69123 3y ago

They should have just banned with the same penalties in this new law all in situ manual cutting of engineered stone, and instituted strict regulations on automated factory cutting.

webprofusion 3y ago

This is good news. Wood is more sustainable and can be more easily repaired and refinished anyway, the problem continues though is if it's replaced by other types of stone. The root problem is obviously lack of protective equipment being used, but that's a universal workplace safety issue and that requires stricter laws.

blindriver 3y ago
Saw dust causes lung cancer, so we should definitely outlaw using wood.
- throwaway0665 3y ago
  Engineered woods like MDF use adhesives that contain formaldehyde which is a possible carcinogen. But people are dropping dead in their 30s from working with MDF (even if it is dangerous)

tomlockwood 3y ago

I work for one of the union organisations (the ACTU) that pushed for this ban. Software devs are notoriously anti-union. Software companies notoriously have huge cash reserves that didn't go into the pockets of those devs. Join your union. If you're in Australia you can start the process, here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/ https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/

jackvalentine 3y ago
Solidarity brother, from a Professionals Australia member.
- tomlockwood 3y ago
  Solidarity forever!
quickthrower2 3y ago
Are software devs who join unions getting paid more than those who do the classic either: (a) 2 year hops or (b) find a company that gives good rises to take you above market rate.
- tomlockwood 3y ago
  The good news is you can do both of those things and still be a member of a union! And additionally, there's lots of evidence to suggest that union members get paid more https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-earn-26-more-than-non-members-per-week-heres-why/ https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-... Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my union, I already get paid a lot! Bosses love that attitude.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    If I am the only one at my company who is in a union, how does the union help me negotiate more salary? Or does it rely on enough people at my company joining?

Hawxy 3y ago

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10/decision_ris_-_prohibition_on_the_use_of_engineered_stone_-_27_october_2023.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

hereme888 3y ago
Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?
- lll-o-lll 3y ago
  Also, bring back Asbestos, properly handled it is perfectly safe. Radium also gets a bad rap from the “think of the children” brigade. And don’t get me started on leaded fuel! What an overreach from the government on that one! How dare these union thugs get in the way of clear economic progression that provides far more benefit than harm!
- mitemte 3y ago
  This is probably going to cause the price of large format porcelain bench tops down. They have less silica content than artificial stone and granite. I believe they are also cut to size off-site.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    You mean up, right? Forcing demand into a product drives the price up.
    - account42 3y ago
      Only short-term unless the supply is static.

kragen 3y ago

imagine if we'd had these people around in the neolithic; it's well-known that potters often came down with silicosis from exposure to the silica in their clay bodies they would have banned pottery also isn't concrete technically 'engineered stone' i'm puzzled how breathing granite dust instead of so-called engineered stone dust is supposed to be better for you

Ekaros 3y ago
My guess is that evolution in general has adapted on some level to dust from granite. It was around before land based animals. Just like it has adapted to trace quantities of other poisonous and harmful stuff. Engineered stone might not be exact analogy granite dust, but different in way that prevent these mechanism to be effective.
- kragen 3y ago
  the studies cited in other parts of this thread found granite dust to be more damaging to lungs, not less so

refurb 3y ago

Interestingly much of the engineered stone comes from Chinese factories.

throwaway0665 3y ago
Interestingly or unsurprisingly considering we're still accidentally importing building materials and even toys filled with asbestos from China. Add vapes to that it feels like there is almost zero regulation on importation of dangerous goods. [1]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/asbestos-found-in-imported-toys-and-building-materials/100604278 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/asbestos-found-in-imp... [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/australian-building-sites-contaminated-with-chinese-asbestos/7166674 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/australian-building-s...

Ekaros 3y ago

Is this stuff really so loved that we absolutely must have it, even if we aren't entirely sure what in it causes these effects? Is there really absolutely no other options available? That is we will now go hungry as there is no more tables in world to prepare our food on...

twic 3y ago
I'm strongly in favour of banning engineered stone countertops because they are extremely tacky.
rob74 3y ago
Engineered stone is cheaper than "real" stone (granite) and sturdier than other alternatives (mostly wood-based materials). But no, the world won't end because of this ban. What people are getting worked up about is that stone has been worked on for centuries, and will also keep being worked on in the future, and there are proven methods of preventing silicosis while working on it (wearing PPE, vacuuming up the dust ASAP etc.), but the Australian government chose not to do anything about the culture of ignoring the dangers and instead took the short-sighted alternative of banning just one of the many possible causes of silicosis...
- katbyte 3y ago
  Ppe is available and the dangers known and in a short time there was a huge spike in sick workers starting shortly after it’s introduction . It’s clearly more dangerous stuff to work with then other materials that were in use. It’s not short sighted to save lives

dukeofdoom 3y ago

Engineered stone looks awful fake, changes color overtime, and can be damaged by a hot pan. Since its upsold as being better than the real thing often. There's a consumer fraud aspect to it too. I wouldn't ban it since there might be some situations where its the better product to use, and not just cheaper.

philjohn 3y ago

My kitchen has engineered stone, and the people who came to fit it took precautions - all cutting was done outside (it was raining, but they had a marquee that went up), heavy duty vacuums to suck up any dust, wet cutting and wearing the proper PPE. There are already laws and regulations about employers having to provide the proper PPE - why not enforce that strongly instead of just outright banning a particular item?