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TSA introducing self-service screening technology in Las Vegas
- 0x0000000 3y agoIf the TSA isn't even a jobs program anymore, what is it?
- toomuchtodo 3y agoA warm blanket for an electorate poor at risk management.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- yieldcrv 3y agoThese are correct questions to ask, and it likely reveals the answer. No Senator or representative can have a platform of repealing national security measures, especially if something goes wrong. But you can delegate the discretion to the associated federal agency, and the agency can choose to keep lowering the security threshold until there isn’t one again.
- mwigdahl 3y agoI don't disagree at all, but the natural incentives for those federal agencies are to grow and to do more and acquire more staff and budget, not to cut back.
- hirsin 3y agoCynical best guess - 1. It's not a direct payout to Vanderlande, as that's a Dutch company owned by Toyota. So it's not some MIC cash for contracts which is the usual guess. 2. But, it's got a single big location in the US - Georgia specifically. I'd guess there's some boost to manufacturing there? Loudermilk as the pork maker would be my guess given the votes in that area, but you'd have to see who got this authorized.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThat's it. While it's still a job programs, it's also a MIC pork projects sales channel for privacy-invasive, experimental, and useless tech.
- chrismcb 3y ago"...hopefully providing a more seamless screening experience." You know what works provided a more seamless experience? Just so away with the TSA. They only provide negative value. They are a time and money sink at the cost of our privacy
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- zaat 3y agoI guess I live in a different world than you do. Perhaps that's because I'm not from the states. In your world, without TSA or similar authority, plane hijacking wouldn't become a regular weekly occurrence? I'm genuinely asking, as I have no idea what's the background for the bad sentiment towards TSA I see here or what's the common thinking on the issue is Edit: reading the replies I turned to wikipedia, I had no idea TSA was only founded in 2001, and that the responsibility for security used to be distributed among various companies. I'm out of context and have some reading to do
- batch12 3y ago> In your world, without TSA or similar authority, plane hijacking wouldn't become a regular weekly occurrence? I guess I wasn't paying attention before. Were hijackings really a weekly occurrence before the TSA?
- dbrueck 3y ago> plane hijacking wouldn't become a regular weekly occurrence? Except that there were relatively few hijackings prior to the TSA. Airport security of some form, sure, but it was wildly different than the TSA. I've had an infuriatingly large number of nonsensical encounters with the TSA and would love to see that agency torn down and replaced. If not both, then just torn down. Arguably the two main deterrents from further hijackings in the US have absolutely nothing to do with the TSA: prior to 9/11, complying with hijackers was usually considered the "right" response. Also prior to 9/11, few if any airliners had secure cockpit doors.
- ojbyrne 3y agoSo for PreCheck, as far as I can tell all they do is scan your id, and compare the name to the name on your boarding pass, and your face to the face on your id, and you just put your bags (and coats sometimes) on the conveyor belt. So it sounds like this "incredibly expensive" machine is just going to scan your id, face and boarding pass and match them up?
- fastaguy88 3y agoThere seems to be some confusion about precheck. Most people get precheck by doing “global entry”, which dramatically shortens the time required for US citizens to re-enter the US. Pre-check is a side benefit of global entry. Global entry pre-dates precheck.
- wrs 3y agoYou can get PreCheck separately. I got PreCheck and Global Entry as a side benefit of Nexus. Which, btw, is the cheapest way to get them all.
- kevinsundar 3y agoYou have to travel to the the northern border to get Nexus right? I got (Global Entry, Sentri, Precheck) since I live near the southern border.
- bobthepanda 3y agoRight, you need a place that has Canadian border agents as well. Seatac airport used to have this, but I think that was stopped during COVID and never restarted.
- jedberg 3y agoSeatac never had it. You actually had to go to Boeing field. That's where I got mine.
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- gregmac 3y ago> After debuting in Las Vegas in January 2024, self-service screening could potentially roll out to additional airports depending on its success. How is "success" measured?
- Racing0461 3y agoIt's not. I bet this is going to be the mcdonald's ice cream machine of airport technology same way mobile passport controls is never open and people need to stand in the long lines.
- MBCook 3y agoThe device’s ability to convince congress to give them more money.
- riscy 3y agoProbably if people traveling for the Super Bowl in early February are happy with it. Might even be why they chose Las Vegas.
- shadowgovt 3y agoLocation of deployment is not surprising. Las Vegas, I am convinced, has a special arrangement with the TSA because they understand that making it difficult to fly in and out of that city will have direct and measurable impact on the entire economy of the region (and they have the money and clout to be heard at federal politics level). I have noticed flying out of Vegas that screening is an awful lot more gentle than it is in other airports, and I'm fairly confident it's because the TSA there has received a very solid note to not have people's last memory leaving Vegas be a sour memory.
- swalberg 3y agoWas just there at re:invent the other week, and I couldn't point to anything different about the airport WRT security and TSA. Very long lines, traffic in and out of the airport was _insane_. My last impressions of Vegas were the terrible traffic, long lines for a limited selection of airport food, but hey, if I wanted to play slots, there they were. Yes, F1 had wrapped up the week ago, but it didn't seem like they were hurrying to take anything down.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y agoHuh...I go to Vegas for DEFCON each year and have always found traffic to be a breeze and the security line never takes me more than 15 minutes. As for the food...meh? I don't go to an airport for their Michelin-starred restaurants.
- swalberg 3y agoI have low expectation of airport food, too, but unless you get a direct flight at the right time you're going to find yourself needing to eat at an airport. The section I was in had some automated sandwich kiosk and a burrito joint that had a huge line that wasn't moving. Walked to another section that had a Shake Shack and some kind of pizza place. Ordering at Shake Shack was fine but it took about 20 minutes to get my order. On the plus side there was an old guy who was also waiting and telling the dirtiest jokes to anyone that would listen.
- 3y ago
- MBCook 3y agoThe TSA: we can’t even be bothered to do our fake job anymore
- mjhay 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- chrisco255 3y agoThis is great, hopefully I can do my own patdowns soon too.
- Havoc 3y agoAnd then get arrested for inappropriate behaviour in a public space.
- rainbowzootsuit 3y agoI've opted out of the mmwave/body x-ray devices 100% since 2001. It will be unfortunate not to be able to share these special moments with another person in the future when I'm having to DIY my pat down, or only have the cold metallic fingers of a robot skim over my body.
- KMag 3y agoI found out last week that one of my colleagues caught hand-foot-mouth disease from his toddler, and it scarred his fingerprints, causing problems with US Immigration And Boarder Patrol's stored biometrics for him. Yes, this particular system uses faces instead of fingerprints, but I was very surprised that such a common infection could (in rare cases, I presume) mess up your biometrics. Net-net, shifting toward biometrics is good, but there are some very sharp corner cases. Also, my toddler still has trouble telling my infant identical twins apart. I could see one of my identical twins denied boarding because "Sorry, but you're already on the other side of this security gate. If you'd like us to review this decision, please send registered mail to the nearest trash receptacle." Edit: I almost forgot about my own travel facial recognition failure two weekends ago. United has some system that scans your face at the check-in counter, and uses facial recognition in lieu of scanning your boarding pass at the gate. I entered one gate. It didn't even seem to recognize there was a face there. The gate agent told me I was standing too close, and told me to back up. She then told me to try the other gate. Then she asked me to stand aside and she manually scanned my boarding pass. To be fair, I used to get the same response at bars when I was single. (I joke, but this really happened to me that a facial scan from a few hours prior wasn't recognized at the gate.)
- teeray 3y agoAs a result, I'm sure "updating your stored biometrics" is such an alien impossibility to these agencies because they have completely bought into the myth that your biometrics never change.
- scarface_74 3y agoClear just updated my fingerprints and Face ID last week. I’m sure TSA can do it to
- hedora 3y agoHow do they prevent phishing / identity theft? This sounds like the worst of all tradeoffs: - Your credentials are public - If you want to change them because they were cloned, you need to undergo surgery - There’s a non-surgical path that allows an attacker to replace your credentials with theirs
- notShabu 3y agoit actually seems like the problem of plane hijacking solved itself once the kamikaze intent became known. people wouldn't just sit passively anymore everything else is politicians making the best of a crisis
- dmix 3y agoIt shows how gov policy is a one way street though. Any time you say yes to gov it's yes for at least a couple decades and then when issues become so apparent for so long they'll start having meetings to plan meetings to reform it and then another decade the reform will remove half the burden and leave the other half.
- tonyedgecombe 3y agoThe problem was solved by locking the door to the cockpit.
- ceejayoz 3y agoBoth, really. Locked cockpit slows them down long enough for the hundred or two pissed off passengers to get the coffee pots and go to town. Flight 93 demonstrated you're not gonna hijack a plane the old way anytime soon.
- hedora 3y agoThe doors sort of backfired. A few (non-US) pilot/copilots have used the door to hijack their own plane and intentionally crash airliners while the other pilot was in the restroom. I think they now require at least two people to stay in the cockpit at all times to work around the problem the door created. Not sure if that means an additional crew member, or if they are allowed to have a flight attendant hang out in the cabin while someone takes a whiz.
- briHass 3y agoPut the door past the front bathrooms and make First Class passengers have to use the ones in Coach with the rest of the hoi polloi.
- eisa01 3y agoComing from Europe, this is so weird and confusing We have normal security + fast track that business/flex ticket holders and passengers with airline status can use. Some European low-cost airlines also let you use it for a nominal extra fee In the US you have this TSA precheck that you need to have an appointment to set up? But at EWR I also saw a private initiative called "CLEAR"? But I was pleasantly surprised to see there was fast track for United "PremierAccess"/*G status holder – never seen that before in the US!
- sveiss 3y agoPreCheck reduces the intensity of the actual screening: walk-through metal detector instead of millimeter wave scanners, can leave your shoes on, keep liquids/laptops/etc in bags, and at airports with a mix of 2D X-ray and 3D CT scanners for baggage, the PreCheck lanes are more likely to have the older X-ray scanners. The reduced scrutiny is the justification for the fingerprinting appointment background check. I haven't seen anything similar in Europe, but busy airports are far more likely to have an efficient security setup that can already cope with leaving liquids in bags and the like. Many US airports still have security checkpoints that look like temporary installations, with portable equipment--even when they're brand new redevelopments! Usually, the queues are shorter for the PreCheck lanes, but this isn't guaranteed. CLEAR replaces having an an agent compare your face to your ID with having a kiosk compare your biometrics. The real advantage comes from having a CLEAR employee then walk you past the queue to get by the normal ID checking podium. You need both to get the guaranteed short queue and the less intense screening. (And then there are the programs to expedite the immigration/customs process too, but at least those include PreCheck, so you don't need all three...)
- NegativeK 3y agoIt sounds like CLEAR is doing what Precheck promised to do? I refuse to get it because me paying money for them to do a background check and make their process more efficient is completely backwards. What's going to happen when CLEAR becomes saturated and slows down -- a fourth tier of passenger?
- ssharp 3y ago> Vanderlande Industries Vandelay Industries?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThis fits the level of intelligence of the TSA. On the plus side, this might reduce theft from crooked TSA agents who are just there to rob passengers.
- RajT88 3y agoThe TSA is not the best of the best. A friend of mine worked for them in grad school (just post 9/11 mind you) and told me that 40% of the workforce at his airport (Chicago Midway) got fired because yearly they failed a proficiency exam that they had to pass to get hired.
- CSMastermind 3y agoThe best model I have for TSA is that it's a jobs program by the federal government.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoC players hire D players, D hire F players.
- supernova87a 3y agoTo entertain an actual technical discussion for a moment on this (and assuming air security is a legitimate goal), I wonder what kind of pen testing certain people might try on this, given that now there is not someone so actively watching if you display suspicious behavior. As in, at least with traditional checkpoints, an agent watching your moves could easily see if you were fiddling with something to try to evade detection. And that would deter people from trying anything. But with an automated portal, who knows what someone might try and test the tolerances of, to understand how it works and the limits. Although, perhaps if it is operated like some automated immigration checkpoints abroad, a dedicated officer still does oversee several booths and will probably notice lingering behavior where someone is acting suspiciously. Imagine it's like if you knew that after 3 tries, your login attempt gets reported to root, versus if you know that never happens.
- mike_d 3y ago> I really wonder what kind of pen testing certain people might try on this After getting spanked by DHS OIG in 2017ish, TSA has really stepped up their testing program. They have an internal DHS red team as well as hiring outside experts for regular testing. Additionally they have a program called index testing where they take screeners from one airport and train them to do covert testing and send them to other airports, to both increase the volume of regular testing as well as exploit insider knowledge. Despite all the shit they catch, TSA has gotten really good at detecting some of the stuff that I would covertly travel with.
- islewis 3y ago> After getting spanked by DHS OIG in 2017ish I'd love to read more about this, but a quick google search didn't bring up much. Any good sources?
- mike_d 3y agohttps://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2017/OIG-17-112-Sep17.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2017/OIG-... This is the unclassified summary. It has been a while so I have just submitted a FOIA request to release it publicly, we will see where that goes.
- tiffanyh 3y agoSuper Bowl That’s bold to be introducing this first ever tech, at the host city of the Super Bowl just a couple weeks after launch.
- chrisco255 3y agoWonder how many more decades we'll pretend like everyone flying is a potential suicide bombing terrorist and ignore things like # of years or # of flights without trying to hijack a plane. Surely, if I've got 20 years of non-terrorist behavior, I should be allowed to go through a standard metal detector, no?
- SV_BubbleTime 3y agoWait, do you still think this is about flight safety? I thought everyone saw it for what it is, conditioning.
- ryandrake 3y agoConditioning for what? To what end? Conspiratorial thinking. TSA is a jobs program.
- trowaway11345 3y agoA conspiracy by definition is a group of people working together to benefit themselves at the expense of others. So yes, this is conspiratorial thinking, and that in itself does not necessitate it being invalid.
- injeolmi_love 3y agoAcceptance of warrantless searches. To enable greater power and wealth for the political classes.
- hedora 3y agoWhy can’t it be both?
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoThere's like ~47,000 TSA employees for context.
- wilde 3y ago
- hedora 3y agoThis is billed as a convenience for travelers, but remember that over 66% of the US population lives inside a “border crossing”. If they can add checkpoints without adding staff, you can bet these things will start popping up like weeds.
- nielsbot 3y ago"Thank you. You are cleared through Voiceprint Identification." I immediately thought of "2001: A Space Odyssey"
- nose 3y agoThis introduces an additional X-ray scan for TSA precheck members compared to the current metal detector.
- noduerme 3y agoThe main reason I have global entry, despite my reluctance to do so, is to avoid having to get pat-downs every time I refuse to walk through the microwave. So basically this would nullify that benefit for me.
- phpisthebest 3y agoHow about, you know, stop treating me like a criminal unless you have a clear articulable reason I am about to commit a crime... You know like the constitution demands...
- indymike 3y agoIdea: let's shut down the security theater at the airport and move on from 20 years ago.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bhpm 3y agoI find it highly unlikely that these new systems will make the TSA line go faster. They tried this with self checkout at grocery stores and that doesn’t seem to have been successful.
- alistairSH 3y agoCan't speak to the TSA system, but the self-checkout at the grocer is a piss-poor implementation... Most shops have a scale on the bagging side, but it's far too small a platform for more than 2-3 bags worth of food. Most Americans shop for a week at a time. So, they can't reliably check-out themselves because the system complains if the scale reading doesn't match the expected weight of scanned items. But, at the same time, grocery stores slashed manned check-out lines, forcing people to use the self-checks when they had unsuitably large carts. So you either wait in a long manual line, or you wait in a short (bot slow and error prone) automated line. Lose-lose for consumers.
- goda90 3y agoYou can fit 6+ self checkout stations in the same space as one or two regular checkouts with the need for only one employee to keep an eye on it. While the time to check out a single person is longer on self checkout, the overall throughput is much higher, and therefore the wait time is usually lower. My local Aldi(US version) stores installed self checkout. Before there would be one cashier and they'd call for backup if the line got past 4 or 5 people. People usually filled their carts full, so it was very slow. Now it's a breeze with self checkout.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]