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> If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers. Unfortunately, you are correct. Shipping in time and bug free are inversely proportio

> If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers. Unfortunately, you are correct. Shipping in time and bug free are inversely proportional, and in a world were usually it's hard to argue with PMs for more time to have better testing, or paying tech debt... it's just a reality

colinmorelli 3y ago
An infinite amount of time would not necessarily yield zero bugs. But more importantly, once you've fixed the "show-stopping bugs," putting the software in front of customers is probably the best next step, as even if it's bug-free, that doesn't mean it solves the problem well.
- reactordev 3y ago
  there is no such thing as zero bugs. There is only a marker in time for a suite of tests that show no bugs. Doesn't mean larva aren't living under the wood. You can't control all the bits (unless you built your own hardware/software stack).
  - colinmorelli 3y ago
    I think we're saying the same thing? That was my point. You're never going to achieve zero bugs no matter how much time you give yourself. Focus on getting the critical path right and creating a good experience, and then get it to customers for feedback on where to go next. [The above does not necessarily apply in highly regulated industries or where lives are on the line]
    - ElectricalUnion 3y ago
      I would say that also applies on highly regulated industries or where lives are on the line. On those you're of course expected to do safety and testing up to the limit of the "value of a statistical life"s within the expected project impacts, but it still has time and budget limits.
      - colinmorelli 3y ago
        The part I was suggesting does not apply is the statement "Focus on getting the critical path right and creating a good experience, and then get it to customers for feedback on where to go next." Most software engineering is about making sure the happy path works well. When lives are on the line, you need to also plan to minimize the possible damage that can happen when things go wrong.
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      I like to think of "zero bugs" as the asymptote. As you spend more time, you discover increasingly fewer (and less significant) bugs per unit of time. POSSIBLY at the limit of infinite time you hit 0 bugs, but even if you could, would it be worth it? Doubtful. I can think of far better ways to spend infinite time.
      - zamalek 3y ago
        0 bugs is actually impossible. A cosmic ray can flip a bit and change the behavior of your software. We live in a fundamentally unreliable universe. We aren't taught how to write reliable software because very few people know how to write reliable software. It doesn't help that academia has a hard crush on OOP, which is a bag of accidental complexity - and complexity is a breeding ground for unreliability.
        BobaFloutist 3y ago
        I think if a cosmic ray flips the bit and changes the behavior of your software, you can still reasonably brag that you wrote 0-bug code. It's not your fault that happened, you didn't do that. The code you wrote had 0 bugs.
    - reactordev 3y ago
      Yup, I also like how you call out "get it in-front of customers" as a step in the whole chain. Often sorely missed. Sometimes a bug to you, is a feature to them (gasp!)... so either make it a first class thing or train them on the correct path (while you fix the "bug").
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > there is no such thing as zero bugs. Ok, I think we’ve gone too far. There absolutely is such thing as 0 bugs and sometimes code changes don’t have bugs. That is not to say it can be garunteed.
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  > An infinite amount of time would not necessarily yield zero bugs. Never said that, just that quick turnaround for deliveries will usually mean more bugs, and having some extra time usually means less bugs
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  We need to define bug but if bug is anything a customer (internal or external) is not happy with that passes triage and you can’t throw it back in their face. Then zero bugs would be impossible with even infinite time.
nradov 3y ago
That's only true up to a point. There are some quality assurance and control activities that are essentially "free" in that they actually allow for shipping faster by preventing rework. But that requires a high level of team maturity and process discipline, so some teams are simply incapable of doing it. And even in ideal circumstances it's impossible to ship defect free software (plus the endless discussions over whether particular issues are bugs or enhancement requests).
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  yeah, it's a spectrum. Clearly no one is expecting an app to be truly bug free if the underlying compiler itself has bugs. But how often do users truly run into compiler level bugs? I think when the author says "bug free", it's from the user perspective. where bugs either need to go out of your way to trigger or are so esoteric it's impossible to think about hitting without that user themself knowing the code inside out. Games is definitely an industry where the quality of code has always dipped to a point where users can easily hit issues in normal use, and only gets worse as games get more complex. That's where it gets truly intolerable
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  There are tools that help, but you still need time to integrate those tools, learn how to use them, etc. If you are doing unit and integration tests, you need time to not only write those, but also actually plan your tests, and learn how to write tests. Which... needs time
d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
Like the age old builder trope. "Cheap. Fast. Good. Pick two."
- NegativeK 3y ago
  That's the optimistic viewpoint. The pessimistic viewpoint is that you get to pick up to one.

colinmorelli 3y ago

An infinite amount of time would not necessarily yield zero bugs. But more importantly, once you've fixed the "show-stopping bugs," putting the software in front of customers is probably the best next step, as even if it's bug-free, that doesn't mean it solves the problem well.

reactordev 3y ago
there is no such thing as zero bugs. There is only a marker in time for a suite of tests that show no bugs. Doesn't mean larva aren't living under the wood. You can't control all the bits (unless you built your own hardware/software stack).
- colinmorelli 3y ago
  I think we're saying the same thing? That was my point. You're never going to achieve zero bugs no matter how much time you give yourself. Focus on getting the critical path right and creating a good experience, and then get it to customers for feedback on where to go next. [The above does not necessarily apply in highly regulated industries or where lives are on the line]
  - ElectricalUnion 3y ago
    I would say that also applies on highly regulated industries or where lives are on the line. On those you're of course expected to do safety and testing up to the limit of the "value of a statistical life"s within the expected project impacts, but it still has time and budget limits.
    - colinmorelli 3y ago
      The part I was suggesting does not apply is the statement "Focus on getting the critical path right and creating a good experience, and then get it to customers for feedback on where to go next." Most software engineering is about making sure the happy path works well. When lives are on the line, you need to also plan to minimize the possible damage that can happen when things go wrong.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    I like to think of "zero bugs" as the asymptote. As you spend more time, you discover increasingly fewer (and less significant) bugs per unit of time. POSSIBLY at the limit of infinite time you hit 0 bugs, but even if you could, would it be worth it? Doubtful. I can think of far better ways to spend infinite time.
    - zamalek 3y ago
      0 bugs is actually impossible. A cosmic ray can flip a bit and change the behavior of your software. We live in a fundamentally unreliable universe. We aren't taught how to write reliable software because very few people know how to write reliable software. It doesn't help that academia has a hard crush on OOP, which is a bag of accidental complexity - and complexity is a breeding ground for unreliability.
      - BobaFloutist 3y ago
        I think if a cosmic ray flips the bit and changes the behavior of your software, you can still reasonably brag that you wrote 0-bug code. It's not your fault that happened, you didn't do that. The code you wrote had 0 bugs.
  - reactordev 3y ago
    Yup, I also like how you call out "get it in-front of customers" as a step in the whole chain. Often sorely missed. Sometimes a bug to you, is a feature to them (gasp!)... so either make it a first class thing or train them on the correct path (while you fix the "bug").
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > there is no such thing as zero bugs. Ok, I think we’ve gone too far. There absolutely is such thing as 0 bugs and sometimes code changes don’t have bugs. That is not to say it can be garunteed.
FalconSensei 3y ago
> An infinite amount of time would not necessarily yield zero bugs. Never said that, just that quick turnaround for deliveries will usually mean more bugs, and having some extra time usually means less bugs
quickthrower2 3y ago
We need to define bug but if bug is anything a customer (internal or external) is not happy with that passes triage and you can’t throw it back in their face. Then zero bugs would be impossible with even infinite time.

nradov 3y ago

That's only true up to a point. There are some quality assurance and control activities that are essentially "free" in that they actually allow for shipping faster by preventing rework. But that requires a high level of team maturity and process discipline, so some teams are simply incapable of doing it. And even in ideal circumstances it's impossible to ship defect free software (plus the endless discussions over whether particular issues are bugs or enhancement requests).

johnnyanmac 3y ago
yeah, it's a spectrum. Clearly no one is expecting an app to be truly bug free if the underlying compiler itself has bugs. But how often do users truly run into compiler level bugs? I think when the author says "bug free", it's from the user perspective. where bugs either need to go out of your way to trigger or are so esoteric it's impossible to think about hitting without that user themself knowing the code inside out. Games is definitely an industry where the quality of code has always dipped to a point where users can easily hit issues in normal use, and only gets worse as games get more complex. That's where it gets truly intolerable
FalconSensei 3y ago
There are tools that help, but you still need time to integrate those tools, learn how to use them, etc. If you are doing unit and integration tests, you need time to not only write those, but also actually plan your tests, and learn how to write tests. Which... needs time

d0gsg0w00f 3y ago

Like the age old builder trope. "Cheap. Fast. Good. Pick two."

NegativeK 3y ago
That's the optimistic viewpoint. The pessimistic viewpoint is that you get to pick up to one.