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He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price
- baz00 3y agohttps://archive.ph/UAYFP https://archive.ph/UAYFP
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sour-taste 3y agoHere's the mentioned letter: [PDF] https://chinalaborwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/English-%E5%94%90%E6%98%8E%E8%8A%B3%E7%BB%99Jeff-Bezos%E7%9A%84%E4%B9%A6%E4%BF%A1.pdf https://chinalaborwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Engli...
- zurfer 3y agoThank you for linking that. It is worth reading. I'm always amazed how cheap and well China can manufacture a wide variety of devices. There is ofc a lot of expertise and economies of scale at work, but the letter is a sad reminder that at least some part comes from exploitation.
- ametrau 3y agoThat was completely mind blowing.
- udkl 3y agoThis was horrific ! Foxconn acted like a thug with connections to the local politicians and police to bully the whistleblower. I knew there were shady things going on in corporate China, but this was revealing. This would definitely not be as bad in other countries like India where Foxconn is also trying to setup production.
- incognition 3y agoThe story is so juicy. Taiwanese exploitation of the common worker just shows you how in bed the Taiwanese and Chinese Elites are, and also why production will never move to India. Apple loves that productivity
- docflabby 3y agoIn a world run by sociopaths - whistleblowing is a trap to catch the people who could if instead of reporting the issues, they organised together and then could stop you... I've yet to see any whistleblowing case not end badly.
- rmellow 3y agoNot to dismiss your statement entirely, but Frances Haugen is doing fine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Haugen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Haugen
- maxlamb 3y agoBy her own admission she is supporting herself financially from “having bought crypto at the right time.” I’m guessing the vast majority of whistleblowers have that kind of financial cushion to risk it all like this. Source: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/10/25/facebook-whistleblower-holds-crypto-to-support-herself-financially-report/amp/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/10/25/facebook-whistl...
- RCitronsBroker 3y agoone case that consoles me is that harry markopolous, the quant who blew the whistle on madoff and his feeder funds-of-funds, despite rigorously not being listened to and almost being railroaded by an SEC coverup, at least got some sort of payout for his pain and suffering that went on for years. I cannot recommend his book enough.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoMan, the SEC covers itself in glory so frequently.
- gorbachev 3y agohttps://constantinecannon.com/whistleblower/top-ten-whistleblower-awards-of-2022/ https://constantinecannon.com/whistleblower/top-ten-whistleb... https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-89 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-89 https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/sherry-hunt-took-on-one-of-the-worlds-biggest-banks-and-won.html https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/sherry-hunt-took-on-one... Some (many?) of those folks did suffer discrimination and even outright persecution from their employers, and horrible financial strain before the eventual payout, but their cases eventually ended up quite well for them.
- laborcontract 3y agoAfter reading both the article and his letter, I can't help but feel so, so sad. There's no glory for this guy. In the States, you'd be able to parlay something like this into a speaking/podcast tour, a book deal, and some consultancy gigs. This guy's life is ruined, his extended family's social credit sullied and, in addition to serving time, he's become the one of the abused workers he tried to protect. If I was the owner of a company and I had read that letter, I wouldn't be able to live with myself without first trying to do something about it. Maybe that's why I'm not the CEO of Amazon. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised. I know a guy who went mentally ill after his tenure there. Took him ten years to get back into another job. We're talking about the guy who thought a Vogue Cover with Lauren Sanchez was a good idea. I'm not anti capitalism, anti manufacturing in china, or anti billionaire. I only wish that a human would deliver that letter to Jeff.
- avidiax 3y agoI would guess that Bezos has never read this letter. An underling of his would never present this letter to him unless Bezos has specifically asked to be presented such letters, and the fallout from this letter will never be sufficient to warrant his attention. It's unfortunate that American and European voters don't realize that allowing our companies to do business with places famous for worker's rights abuses and lack of environmental controls affects them, too.
- crossroadsguy 3y ago> I would guess that Bezos has never read this letter. I would guess someone might have informed him of this letter or he might even as well have read it already. What I would not guess about is whether he would give two fucks about it. Because no he would not. Yes, he and his company has proven this. Business and profit over all else. That is not just really a Chinese problem. It surprises me how people still love to try to think that “Oh, this is such a horror! If only the Western corporate overlords had the time in their busy schedules to know of these, this would most likely go away”. Nope, those cheap contracts were signed with this expectation to begin with it.
- highwaylights 3y agoOne of these days I'm going to make the Internet prove to ME that IT's not a robot and see how it likes it
- RCitronsBroker 3y agocloudflare captchas really are a grade a pest at the moment, i already switched my DNS once because i always got stuck, now it happens again
- croes 3y agoIIRC it's not a cloudflare capture but a problem with DNS not providing certain informations.
- notpushkin 3y agoIt's not even a Cloudflare captcha in this case: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38174302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38174302
- RCitronsBroker 3y agohuh? i definitely was served cloudflare captchas
- tiew9Vii 3y agoIt’s stuck an an infinite loop for me. Click the pictures, get the green tick, click the button, a brand new captcha
- RCitronsBroker 3y agoyup, that’s what i mean. try switching to a different domain name server
- zxt_tzx 3y agoI know this doesn't really solve the underlying problem, but I find that if I use Cloudflare's WARP (https://1.1.1.1/ https://1.1.1.1/), Cloudflare is able to recognize the traffic is coming from itself and I can get past these captchas
- sgjohnson 3y agoSlavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago> As our report describes in detail, the labor conditions of incarcerated workers in many U.S. prisons violate the most fundamental human rights to life and dignity,” said Clinical Prof. Claudia Flores, the director of the Global Human Rights Clinic. “In any other workplace, these conditions would be shocking and plainly unlawful https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-vio...
- zaggynl 3y agoWhataboutism and you're comparing a factory to a prison.
- krageon 3y agoA prison that builds things is a factory. It's insight into the fact that in fact the norms are no different in the US.
- zaggynl 3y agoI would assume the people working in the Chinese factory have _some_ time off to go outside said factory? Or have the ability to turn in their notice and leave for a different job? Agreed on the fact that both seem like a corporate hellhole one way or the other.
- krageon 3y agoI honestly don't see the difference between a factory worker that works seven days a week and lives close to the factory (and doesn't travel, as that's for folks with free time and disposable income) and someone who is in prison. In both cases there is only a very small society that they are actually a part of and very limited personal autonomy. I know a lot of folks like to say the theoretical presence of choice means someone is free, but let us be honest here: When you are poor, you may have a choice of where you are imprisoned but that doesn't mean you can escape.
- PaulKeeble 3y agoMy experience of whistleblowing even here in the west is that usually it goes very very badly. The only real thing open to you is to refuse to do anything unethical, quit and walk away. Many people can't afford to do that. Things ought to be different but we live in corrupt societies where the law is different for the rich and powerful than for everyone else.
- throwawaysleep 3y agoNot surprising that it will go badly. Most of us have some secrets to hide, so the individuals that make up society have an incentive to exclude such people from their lives. I couldn’t trust a whistleblower. While grateful for a lot of the work they do, I never want to be their target and would never risk getting close to them.
- jackdaniel 3y agoWhile I disagree with your opinion, I appreciate a lot that you've stated it. That's a very honest thing to say.
- automatic6131 3y ago>I appreciate a lot that you've stated it Well, from an anonymous account, it means jack. Bull, even.
- jackdaniel 3y agoPeople often lie not only to others, but also to themselves. Also I don't see a problem with somewhat controversial takes from anonymous accounts; given today's internet opposite would be brave/stupid.
- throwawaysleep 3y agoIs it that you morally disagree (I agree that it is a poor reward for doing me a service) or you have a disagreement about why society punishes whistleblowers?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- the100rabh 3y ago[dead]
- jongjong 3y agoI've never worked for any major tech corporation. I've had opportunities to apply to Amazon and Facebook but never followed through with any of them. It's partly for moral reasons but also partly out of fear because I'm worried about what that would look like on my record in 10 or 20 years' time if the world returns to sanity. We've seen what happens to members of distrusted groups during periods of social upheaval. I just cannot bring myself to bet on never-ending insanity. I cannot imagine such world. I'm already worried about my background in tech causing problems. Admittedly, I couldn't imagine the world we have today 10 years ago and I can't imagine the world in 10 years time if it continues down that path. I just don't see the point. I don't want to be rich in such a hypothetical hell hole so my mind doesn't see the point going there.
- dkbrk 3y agoAs a regular reader of Matt Levine this sounds like an opportunity for a securities fraud suit. Surely Amazon has said that its factories follow local labor laws, that whistleblowers are protected etc. That seems like a fairly standard thing for a large corporation to claim.
- bootstraping 3y agoArticle link without paywall: http://archive.today/UAYFP http://archive.today/UAYFP
- submeta 3y ago[flagged]
- ReptileMan 3y agoThank you for the provided info. Upgraded my amazon account to prime.
- bradley13 3y agoI'm not quite sure what your objection is? Are you generally against companies providing services related to warfare? Or are you specifically against providing services for the Israel/Gaza conflict? If the former - if you are generally protesting commercial services for the military - then there are a lot of companies you need to boycott, before you get around to Amazon. Amazon is a small fish in the sea. If the latter, then cancelling your Amazon account is pretty small potatos to protest the Israeli attack on Hamas. And I would have to ask: have you also protested the Hamas attack on Israel? While the whole situation is a mess, Hamas definitely started this particular fist-fight.
- rightbyte 3y ago> to protest the Israeli attack on Hamas Usually the critique is that civilians are targeted.
- rmbyrro 3y agoBut the Hamas attack against Israel ONLY targeted civilians and OP isn't protesting.
- spencerflem 3y agoThe US does not provide billions in aid to Hamas. What would protesting do?
- saiya-jin 3y agoThis is not true, they targeted what they could, including any military equipment they met. The fact is, they didn't met much military resistance since army didn't consider such attack possible (there are alternative theories here but I'll ignore them) and the limited one they met they often overcame. Many male and female IDF soldiers died in the 7.10. ambush and some were kidnapped back to Gaza, some of them were killed due to very poor / lacking equipment provided by military (overconfidence in intelligence and border protection/monitoring).
- DanielHB 3y agoDidn't the US have a whistleblower bounty with the IRS? I heard it was one of the most successful programs they ever ran. Whistleblow on your company's tax evasion and you get paid a pretty good chunk of money from the IRS. IRS collects its due and you get paid proportional to the amount of tax revenue evaded (I remember a few cases where the whistleblower got tens of millions of dollars). It is kind of bizarre, but the incentives are perfectly aligned, if the tax evasion sum is low you get paid less therefor it is not worth whistleblowing. The IRS doesn't want to catch the small fries, to some extent tax evasion is desired for smaller companies.
- thfuran 3y ago>The IRS doesn't want to catch the small fries, to some extent tax evasion is desired for smaller companies. What?
- jabroni_salad 3y agoThat does come across weirdly but the IRS is a perennial favorite defund target so they don't have the resources to go after everyone, they should only choose juicier cases in that respect. There are some good points in this article (the optimal amount of fraud is non-zero) that can be extrapolated to other parts of the financial world. The highest level point is that sometimes, a little slippage is needed for business to get done, and getting business done is the main goal of the economy. https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fraud/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...
- thfuran 3y agoNot having the means to catch every fraudster is very different from wanting them to commit the fraud. I think the only sense in which the IRS wants tax fraud is that some portion of its bureaucracy is dedicated to handling fraud and many of the people so employed would prefer continued employment to magically eliminating all fraud.
- DanielHB 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kabanda1 3y agoWhitsle blowing is fine. Just don't do it against government or corporations that control 70% of your country's capital
- honzaik 3y ago"Under Chinese competition law, the complainant has to show proof that their business operations were hurt by the theft of trade secrets. Foxconn said that, as a result of Tang’s disclosures, it had incurred costs of Rmb1.4mn (about £150,000) in August from having to raise its salaries." I don't think this would even fly in the US.
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoI guess the distinction would come from whether salary levels are considered "trade secrets". In the US it definitely wouldn't fly, salary discussions are specifically allowed and retaliation against people discussing their salaries is illegal. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen under some other pretext, but it definitely won't be as blatant.
- sersi 3y agoWould there be a way to contact him and organize some fundraising for him?
- lynx23 3y agoWhat is a whistleblower to some, is a mudslinger to others.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoAgain, someone using far too kind a word. Where "others" = "total fucking sociopaths who know nothing but greed and should not be participants in society". In that case, yes, I agree.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoIt's naive and foolish to upset the money gravy train. The reality is most countries are corrupted to varying degrees by economic concerns, and it doesn't matter if the country claims to be communist or not. There is no reward except misery, exile, indefinite imprisonment, and/or assassination for pie-eyed, meat-headed idealists.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- srameshc 3y agoWhat a shame that companies in question don't even address that a human's right had been violated and do what is right. At least Foxconn could have done the some thing for Tang Mingfang if it wasn't Amazon, if it adressed the issues they had.