11 ms·

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostil

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

raverbashing 3y ago
Correct. They kinda said the quiet part out loud there At the same time, heck, the issue of 'regular safety' should not be downplayed. Yes, some places in the west are worrying as well, but not usually at the same level. (And yes at a certain point I wouldn't advocate for a conference "anywhere" in SF without a certain risk management)
- KeplerBoy 3y ago
  Perfect is the enemy of good. You probably can't have a perfect convention under these circumstances, but having a convention at all can improve the situation in the long term. Helping the local coding community will, sooner or later, provide them with additional income and knowledge.
anonylizard 3y ago
[flagged]
- plufz 3y ago
  Would they come after you if you brought your same sex partner? If you had a rainbow pin? Does it really matter where the exact limit goes? Would you feel safe being in a country where your sexuality was illegal? No way I would take that chance for a python conference.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jdiff 3y ago
      Why should a conference be held somewhere where people will be excluded by virtue of their existence?
      - em-bee 3y ago
        because that would limit conferences in a lot of places. people everywhere should be able to hold their own conferences. the question is, should the PSF fund them? that should be answerable with a clear yes or no in a timely manner, and not like it happened. holding a conference named pycon requires permission from the PSF trademark workgroup. that permission has obviously been given. giving such a permission but then denying funding would be contradictory, but still be better than delaying decisions. further consider that the people organizing the conference are not the ones making the exclusions. those are beyond their control. supporting the organizers might actually be a good thing. at least it is worth a consideration.
        jdiff 3y ago
        I don't disagree with any of this. People in those areas should be able to hold their own conferences, and should get questions on funding answered in a timely manner. The point I wanted to make was that there are valid reasons to not hold (or fund) a conference based on local laws.
        em-bee 3y ago
        right, but those reasons could have been considered when the permission to host an event called pycon was sought and given. i'd like to assume that once i have permission to organize a pycon, then funding is a mere question of how much, and whether the expenses are appropriate, not whether it should be funded at all.
- phantomathkg 3y ago
  Not answering for African or Python community standpoint, but surely in Muslim country there are people monitoring. For example, recently for Coldplay in Malaysia. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/nov/22/coldplay-concert-to-go-ahead-in-malaysia-amid-opposition-from-conservative-muslims https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/nov/22/coldplay-conce...
- blackbear_ 3y ago
  So you are saying that breaking the law is fine so long as you are not caught? And that the PSF should use the probability of getting away with illegal activities as one of the criteria to evaluate hosts?
- Xeamek 3y ago
  You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the entire state. Objectively, will a python conference attended by an African be more dangerous than that person's everyday life? No. But that's not what it's about. What this is about is PSF's having no tolerance for places that are breaking human rights. And if you want to be part of that community and enjoy its perks, you have to adhere to cultural standards that PSF perceives are essential.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    >But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. What does that have to do with Python? You can chose to respect the laws in the country you are in, or not.
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?
      - DeathArrow 3y ago
        >PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.
        Xeamek 3y ago
        The main reason of some entity's existence doesn't prevent it from having an additional views, that can even shape the way they execute their primary goal
        3y ago
- saltwatercowboy 3y ago
  You aren't wrong. Tanzania != Malaysia, as another commenter seemed to think. Their version of Sharia is nowhere near as strict. Incidents of violence are the product of opportunity and generally perpetrated through in-group policing. Westerners and other African travellers are less exposed, so in the case of an LGBT developer from the US travelling to Zanzibar (which is also a very special case relative to the rest of Tanzania) I doubt they'd be in any real danger unless they were publicly displaying unambiguous attraction to the same-sex. I know an openly gay couple living in Kinshasa, which is a much more dangerous environment. This is a very cheap shot from PSF and a classic case of perfect defeating good.
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    Heh... if the argument is coming down to "yeah, but in their version of Sharia", I'm thinking maybe it's not such a good idea.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- ttyprintk 3y ago
  It’s safest where you know what to expect. Tanzania will likely deny you entry into the country if they suspect non-heterosexuality. Mature travelers who are part of a persecuted group know this, but younger people attending a computing conference need to learn this and it’s more important than the feelings in this open letter.
andrepd 3y ago
If you read the whole context, that is not the point at all. The point is (1) that the Python event would be an effective safe space even in a context of LGBT persecution, and (2) that it's illegitimate and counterproductive to prevent such an event from happening just because it's located in a less than enlightened country. Both of those are valid.
- ayhanfuat 3y ago
  What is an effective safe space other than saying "relax, generally nothing happens"? Are you guaranteeing their safety? Of course not. I live in a "less than enlightened" country and I do know when everything feels safe tiny little things can lead to catastrophic consequences. I experience it regularly. Effective means nothing.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    >tiny little things can lead to catastrophic consequences Do you mean things that are against the law?
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      How does it matter?
      - DeathArrow 3y ago
        [flagged]
        konschubert 3y ago
        And if the law is that you should not be gay then that makes it a bad country to host a python event.
        Xeamek 3y ago
        This type of discussions are about what should be, not about what is. Your comment doesn't add anything. In fact, it does about as much sense as randomly stating "water is wet". Technically true, but so what?
mmtml 3y ago
I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  That's literally how any 'anti-state' action works, ever. Does an individual Russian have a say in what Putin does in Ukraine? Probably not. But countries are a collection of its citizens. The only way to 'punish' a country is to punish its citizens. Sometimes it's more direct, other times less. But at the end of the day, any and all actions will trickle down to punishing individuals, because that's simply how actions against countries (or any other organized group of people) work.
  - anticodon 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      How is that weird?
    - bhickey 3y ago
      > invasion of Libya The air campaign against Gaddafi was authorized by the UN Security Council with no votes against. While deposing a former client was a terrible idea, your question isn't a gotcha.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    >"The only way to 'punish' a country is to punish its citizens." And the rulers of said country do not give a flying fuck about it. They're also protected from the revolt as they have police / army in their pocket to deal with the people.
  - baryphonic 3y ago
    > But countries are a collection of its citizens [sic] This seems excessively reductionist. An organized state, borders, a system for generating revenue, an armed force, and other infrastructure seems necessary for a proper country to exist. All of these militate against treating the country as merely a collection of people, or using the people as the fodder to "punish" the country.
Eumenes 3y ago
Do it virtually if safety is an issue. Just like with covid.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    I agree
DeathArrow 3y ago
At the same time, software should not be tied to politics. People should be able to hold different political views while taking part in software conferences.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  >software should not be tied to politics. Why not? I mean, software is a product like any other. I for example wouldn't like if a group like ISIS was using my software, especially if they were using it to actively help them in commiting their crimes. If I could prevent that from happening, why shouldn't I?
  - lynx23 3y ago
    The DSFG is a nice counter-example to your claim. Either something is unconditionally free, or it simply isn't.
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      >either something is unconditionally free, or it simply isn't. Ok, it isn't. So what?
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    >Why not You have the right to hold you own political views, however you don't have the right to impose those on users of a particular software or participants in a software conference.
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      If that software is mine and I control who can use it? I absolutely do have the (practical) right to impose those values, yes.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      You sure do have the rights to do that. A more general you does anyway. You can't export software to certain countries, basically due to their political position. Multiple sanctions exist today. See also the licence giving the right to IBM to use the software for evil. https://gist.github.com/kemitchell/fdc179d60dc88f0c9b76e5d38fe47076 https://gist.github.com/kemitchell/fdc179d60dc88f0c9b76e5d38...
keraf 3y ago
The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends living on the island that never reported any incident (unlike in Europe). Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public, out of respect for the local population. Kissing and holding hands for example is not well seen, even for heterosexual couples. Despite this, even if you happen to do it in public you will never face verbal or physical aggression from anyone, maybe just some frowns but even that is rare. Pushing our views to countries that are still developing is Neocolonialism at its best. We take our progress in the West for granted, but it took us time to get there. Give the tools for Africans country to develop on their own, they will get there in their own time, there are many other pressing matters to address first.
- red_admiral 3y ago
  There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me that there is, prima facie, evidence for the claim that Tanzania is one of the least safe countries for LBGT+ people in the world.
  - Planktonne 3y ago
    What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?
  - rob74 3y ago
    Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...
darkerside 3y ago
Some people might be shocked that you can be incarcerated in the US for putting substances in your own body.
- ttyprintk 3y ago
  [flagged]
Vinnl 3y ago
They're still good questions to ask and have answered beforehand, though, so that a decision can be made quickly. Apparently the decision here was that that unsafety was not enough to withhold the funds, in which case it would have been great to have been able to make that decision more quickly.
dist-epoch 3y ago
I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal. Would they say something like "don't worry, you are not a slave, it's ok to go there, nothing will happen to you"?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Slavery is still de facto legal in Mauritania (ostensibly outlawed back in the 1980s but still omnipresent), and foreigners go there all the time. Overlanding from Europe to West Africa is popular. States where slavery is legal, or remains de facto legal as in Mauritania, generally have had a system for who becomes a slave, and it isn’t a posh foreign visitor. It is prior slaves’ progeny, prisoners of war, or purchase on the market from sellers selling the former two groups. In fact, it isn’t just posh foreigners. Many Senegalese people go to work in Nouakchott for a few years, save up money, and then return home. They aren’t worried about being enslaved because, again, the slavery system isn’t about them.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    This thread is about python. What you have here has no connection to what anyone has said.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      The OP wrote “I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal.” I mentioned a country that is known for modern-day slavery yet draws foreigners, with the implication that it might not be as shocking for tech organizers as the OP thinks. For example, the country has recently been prominent in the OpenStreetMap community[0], but I have never seen the discussion go off into concern about slavery, and I wouldn’t expect a large outcry if one of the big international OSM conferences like SotM was organized there. [0] https://www.trufi-association.org/projects/public-transport-mapping-nouakchott-mauritania/ https://www.trufi-association.org/projects/public-transport-...

raverbashing 3y ago

Correct. They kinda said the quiet part out loud there At the same time, heck, the issue of 'regular safety' should not be downplayed. Yes, some places in the west are worrying as well, but not usually at the same level. (And yes at a certain point I wouldn't advocate for a conference "anywhere" in SF without a certain risk management)

KeplerBoy 3y ago
Perfect is the enemy of good. You probably can't have a perfect convention under these circumstances, but having a convention at all can improve the situation in the long term. Helping the local coding community will, sooner or later, provide them with additional income and knowledge.

anonylizard 3y ago

[flagged]

plufz 3y ago
Would they come after you if you brought your same sex partner? If you had a rainbow pin? Does it really matter where the exact limit goes? Would you feel safe being in a country where your sexuality was illegal? No way I would take that chance for a python conference.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jdiff 3y ago
    Why should a conference be held somewhere where people will be excluded by virtue of their existence?
    - em-bee 3y ago
      because that would limit conferences in a lot of places. people everywhere should be able to hold their own conferences. the question is, should the PSF fund them? that should be answerable with a clear yes or no in a timely manner, and not like it happened. holding a conference named pycon requires permission from the PSF trademark workgroup. that permission has obviously been given. giving such a permission but then denying funding would be contradictory, but still be better than delaying decisions. further consider that the people organizing the conference are not the ones making the exclusions. those are beyond their control. supporting the organizers might actually be a good thing. at least it is worth a consideration.
      - jdiff 3y ago
        I don't disagree with any of this. People in those areas should be able to hold their own conferences, and should get questions on funding answered in a timely manner. The point I wanted to make was that there are valid reasons to not hold (or fund) a conference based on local laws.
        em-bee 3y ago
        right, but those reasons could have been considered when the permission to host an event called pycon was sought and given. i'd like to assume that once i have permission to organize a pycon, then funding is a mere question of how much, and whether the expenses are appropriate, not whether it should be funded at all.
phantomathkg 3y ago
Not answering for African or Python community standpoint, but surely in Muslim country there are people monitoring. For example, recently for Coldplay in Malaysia. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/nov/22/coldplay-concert-to-go-ahead-in-malaysia-amid-opposition-from-conservative-muslims https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/nov/22/coldplay-conce...
blackbear_ 3y ago
So you are saying that breaking the law is fine so long as you are not caught? And that the PSF should use the probability of getting away with illegal activities as one of the criteria to evaluate hosts?
Xeamek 3y ago
You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the entire state. Objectively, will a python conference attended by an African be more dangerous than that person's everyday life? No. But that's not what it's about. What this is about is PSF's having no tolerance for places that are breaking human rights. And if you want to be part of that community and enjoy its perks, you have to adhere to cultural standards that PSF perceives are essential.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. What does that have to do with Python? You can chose to respect the laws in the country you are in, or not.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?
    - DeathArrow 3y ago
      >PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.
      - Xeamek 3y ago
        The main reason of some entity's existence doesn't prevent it from having an additional views, that can even shape the way they execute their primary goal
      - 3y ago
saltwatercowboy 3y ago
You aren't wrong. Tanzania != Malaysia, as another commenter seemed to think. Their version of Sharia is nowhere near as strict. Incidents of violence are the product of opportunity and generally perpetrated through in-group policing. Westerners and other African travellers are less exposed, so in the case of an LGBT developer from the US travelling to Zanzibar (which is also a very special case relative to the rest of Tanzania) I doubt they'd be in any real danger unless they were publicly displaying unambiguous attraction to the same-sex. I know an openly gay couple living in Kinshasa, which is a much more dangerous environment. This is a very cheap shot from PSF and a classic case of perfect defeating good.
- Tao3300 3y ago
  Heh... if the argument is coming down to "yeah, but in their version of Sharia", I'm thinking maybe it's not such a good idea.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
ttyprintk 3y ago
It’s safest where you know what to expect. Tanzania will likely deny you entry into the country if they suspect non-heterosexuality. Mature travelers who are part of a persecuted group know this, but younger people attending a computing conference need to learn this and it’s more important than the feelings in this open letter.

andrepd 3y ago

If you read the whole context, that is not the point at all. The point is (1) that the Python event would be an effective safe space even in a context of LGBT persecution, and (2) that it's illegitimate and counterproductive to prevent such an event from happening just because it's located in a less than enlightened country. Both of those are valid.

ayhanfuat 3y ago
What is an effective safe space other than saying "relax, generally nothing happens"? Are you guaranteeing their safety? Of course not. I live in a "less than enlightened" country and I do know when everything feels safe tiny little things can lead to catastrophic consequences. I experience it regularly. Effective means nothing.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >tiny little things can lead to catastrophic consequences Do you mean things that are against the law?
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    How does it matter?
    - DeathArrow 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - konschubert 3y ago
        And if the law is that you should not be gay then that makes it a bad country to host a python event.
      - Xeamek 3y ago
        This type of discussions are about what should be, not about what is. Your comment doesn't add anything. In fact, it does about as much sense as randomly stating "water is wet". Technically true, but so what?

mmtml 3y ago

I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.

Xeamek 3y ago
That's literally how any 'anti-state' action works, ever. Does an individual Russian have a say in what Putin does in Ukraine? Probably not. But countries are a collection of its citizens. The only way to 'punish' a country is to punish its citizens. Sometimes it's more direct, other times less. But at the end of the day, any and all actions will trickle down to punishing individuals, because that's simply how actions against countries (or any other organized group of people) work.
- anticodon 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    How is that weird?
  - bhickey 3y ago
    > invasion of Libya The air campaign against Gaddafi was authorized by the UN Security Council with no votes against. While deposing a former client was a terrible idea, your question isn't a gotcha.
- FpUser 3y ago
  >"The only way to 'punish' a country is to punish its citizens." And the rulers of said country do not give a flying fuck about it. They're also protected from the revolt as they have police / army in their pocket to deal with the people.
- baryphonic 3y ago
  > But countries are a collection of its citizens [sic] This seems excessively reductionist. An organized state, borders, a system for generating revenue, an armed force, and other infrastructure seems necessary for a proper country to exist. All of these militate against treating the country as merely a collection of people, or using the people as the fodder to "punish" the country.

Eumenes 3y ago

Do it virtually if safety is an issue. Just like with covid.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
[flagged]
- Eumenes 3y ago
  I agree

DeathArrow 3y ago

At the same time, software should not be tied to politics. People should be able to hold different political views while taking part in software conferences.

Xeamek 3y ago
>software should not be tied to politics. Why not? I mean, software is a product like any other. I for example wouldn't like if a group like ISIS was using my software, especially if they were using it to actively help them in commiting their crimes. If I could prevent that from happening, why shouldn't I?
- lynx23 3y ago
  The DSFG is a nice counter-example to your claim. Either something is unconditionally free, or it simply isn't.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    >either something is unconditionally free, or it simply isn't. Ok, it isn't. So what?
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >Why not You have the right to hold you own political views, however you don't have the right to impose those on users of a particular software or participants in a software conference.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    If that software is mine and I control who can use it? I absolutely do have the (practical) right to impose those values, yes.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    You sure do have the rights to do that. A more general you does anyway. You can't export software to certain countries, basically due to their political position. Multiple sanctions exist today. See also the licence giving the right to IBM to use the software for evil. https://gist.github.com/kemitchell/fdc179d60dc88f0c9b76e5d38fe47076 https://gist.github.com/kemitchell/fdc179d60dc88f0c9b76e5d38...

keraf 3y ago

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends living on the island that never reported any incident (unlike in Europe). Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public, out of respect for the local population. Kissing and holding hands for example is not well seen, even for heterosexual couples. Despite this, even if you happen to do it in public you will never face verbal or physical aggression from anyone, maybe just some frowns but even that is rare. Pushing our views to countries that are still developing is Neocolonialism at its best. We take our progress in the West for granted, but it took us time to get there. Give the tools for Africans country to develop on their own, they will get there in their own time, there are many other pressing matters to address first.

red_admiral 3y ago
There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me that there is, prima facie, evidence for the claim that Tanzania is one of the least safe countries for LBGT+ people in the world.
- Planktonne 3y ago
  What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?
- rob74 3y ago
  Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...

darkerside 3y ago

Some people might be shocked that you can be incarcerated in the US for putting substances in your own body.

ttyprintk 3y ago
[flagged]

Vinnl 3y ago

They're still good questions to ask and have answered beforehand, though, so that a decision can be made quickly. Apparently the decision here was that that unsafety was not enough to withhold the funds, in which case it would have been great to have been able to make that decision more quickly.

dist-epoch 3y ago

I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal. Would they say something like "don't worry, you are not a slave, it's ok to go there, nothing will happen to you"?

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Slavery is still de facto legal in Mauritania (ostensibly outlawed back in the 1980s but still omnipresent), and foreigners go there all the time. Overlanding from Europe to West Africa is popular. States where slavery is legal, or remains de facto legal as in Mauritania, generally have had a system for who becomes a slave, and it isn’t a posh foreign visitor. It is prior slaves’ progeny, prisoners of war, or purchase on the market from sellers selling the former two groups. In fact, it isn’t just posh foreigners. Many Senegalese people go to work in Nouakchott for a few years, save up money, and then return home. They aren’t worried about being enslaved because, again, the slavery system isn’t about them.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  This thread is about python. What you have here has no connection to what anyone has said.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    The OP wrote “I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal.” I mentioned a country that is known for modern-day slavery yet draws foreigners, with the implication that it might not be as shocking for tech organizers as the OP thinks. For example, the country has recently been prominent in the OpenStreetMap community[0], but I have never seen the discussion go off into concern about slavery, and I wouldn’t expect a large outcry if one of the big international OSM conferences like SotM was organized there. [0] https://www.trufi-association.org/projects/public-transport-mapping-nouakchott-mauritania/ https://www.trufi-association.org/projects/public-transport-...