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The cheapest F150 Lightning (available today not in 2025) is $50k (vs $60k for Cybertruck), same 250 mile range but AWD standard, and is a regular pickup truck
by danans 3y ago
The cheapest F150 Lightning (available today not in 2025) is $50k (vs $60k for Cybertruck), same 250 mile range but AWD standard, and is a regular pickup truck compatible with standard accessories and parts for doing actual pickup truck work.
Of course, most of the buyers of either the Cybertruck or the F150 Lightning probably aren't getting much dirt under their fingernails. Everyone I know doing construction/trade work tends to drive much smaller pickups.
We need a lot more Chevy Bolts and electric buses, and a smaller electric pickup truck with 2 doors, but instead this is what we will get due to the cultural moment we are at, and because of who has the money to spend on new vehicles today.
- redox99 3y ago> The cheapest F150 Lightning (available today not in 2025) is $50k Can you actually buy it at that price?
- danans 3y agoI see several listed in my area for around $53k. So approximately yes.
- jdminhbg 3y agoWhat you see listed and what the dealer will actually give it to you for are not necessarily the same thing, infamously so in the case of in-demand models like this.
- NewJazz 3y agoCar dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38460281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38460281 I wonder if the price-gouge-EV-customers and complain-about-EV-subsidies groups overlap... Hmm.
- jdminhbg 3y agoI think probably it's a disjoint group, or at least a disjoint set of circumstances. What the dealers are complaining about are the rules phasing in about what % of your sales need to be EVs. There are some successes, like the F-150, but there are also a ton of terrible legacy manufacturer EVs that nobody wants to buy that are kinda just sitting around. If Ford and the other carmakers could make vehicles as popular as the F-150 in quantity, I don't think the dealers would care.
- danans 3y ago> If Ford and the other carmakers could make vehicles as popular as the F-150 in quantity, I don't think the dealers would care. They can make smaller EVs that are more popular than the larger and more luxurious vehicles, but they can't sell them as profitably as the larger vehicles.
- geoelectric 3y agoI heard similar grumbles from Hyundai dealers around San Jose, CA, re: the Ioniq 5, and that model got a lot of accolades and is frequently recommended as an alternative to the Tesla Model Y for its category. I'm not sure what's going on is strictly a legacy model desirability issue. It might be a "legacy dealers can't sell even good EVs because they don't know enough about them" issue though. Really hard to say, but that definitely would match my personal experience talking to a number of them.
- jmacd 3y agoI think the tide has turned on the Lightening. I know that dealers near me are trying to sell the ones they have.
- caycep 3y agoI'd vote for updated bmw i3 as well. that thing was under appreciated.
- NewJazz 3y agoI like the Minis personally. But they are 10k more than a bolt. Something about chickens not paying their taxes?
- andrewmunsell 3y agoEveryone made fun of me for having one, but it was the perfect city car. Great turning radius & it fit basically anywhere. And the plastic body meant that if someone opened their door into you, it just bounced off instead of leaving a dent. It's a shame they never made any significant improvements on the range. After degradation, the range on the i3 ends up pretty abysmal. The REx was a fun idea too and even let me take the car on multi-hundred mile road trips, without recharging, after coding the REx to one of the buttons in the car.
- caycep 3y agoyeah, I wonder where it would be if they'd continue to put development money on the drivetrain and battery tech. It just seemed they left the concept behind despite growing sales numbers, and moved towards 6000 lb SUV EVs...
- pkulak 3y agoI had no idea you could do that! So, if you were starting a long trip, you could kick the REx on at like 80%?
- detourdog 3y agoI have an i3 and it has been my favorite car so far. I dont even have a second favorite vehicle.
- rumblerock 3y agoThe MSRP for these things was never competitive, but $15-20k in the used market for a carbon monocoque electric go-kart? Sign me up.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago> Everyone I know doing construction/trade work tends to drive much smaller pickups. Smaller than an F150? Maybe it's because I live in the Bay Area where there's more money being thrown around but trucks of that size and larger seem to be common for trade workers.
- paulddraper 3y agoNot just you. Anyone who uses a truck a lot will have a 150+ --- How many programmers do you see with MacBook Airs
- BoorishBears 3y agoI'd bet good money the average Ford Ranger/Maverick hauls more than the average F-150 today > How many programmers do you see with MacBook Airs The people working on some of the most complex projects of our times rely on compute that isn't available in a laptop, so they're perfectly fine taking an Air. I personally used an M1 Air for a couple of years.
- js2 3y agoI'd take that bet. The Ranger isn't manufactured anymore (edit: yes it is; can't recall having seen one though) and I've never seen a Maverick used commercially. I don't think I've even seen one that didn't look freshly washed. I mean, this isn't even hard to figure out: the F-150 is the best selling vehicle (not truck, but vehicle) in the U.S. for what, a decade or more?
- Waterluvian 3y agoAre all the future autonomy claims still a selling point or is Tesla downplaying that more these days?
- chollida1 3y ago> Everyone I know doing construction/trade work tends to drive much smaller pickups. Odd for me all my friends who farm or do construction own either the F150 or the equivalent dodge RAM truck. The other trucks either don’t have cabs big enough to fit multiple workers or fit full sheets of drywall. Now I’m in Canada, perhaps you’re European?
- danans 3y ago> Odd for me all my friends who farm or do construction own either the F150 or the equivalent dodge RAM truck. From what I've seen at local lumber yards, new F150s and Rams are the trucks that the boss usually drives, not the workers who are actually picking up the material. They are buying and driving cheapest truck that gets the job done. It's an F-150, it's an older one. A lot of Toyota Tacomas though. > Now I’m in Canada, perhaps you’re European? I'm in the US. > The other trucks either don’t have cabs big enough to fit multiple workers or fit full sheets of drywall. Large sheet goods either go on the lumber rack or if it's enough, is delivered on a delivery truck. Usually not in the bed. That's for tools, bags of material, etc.
- imglorp 3y agoThis. Full sheets of almost everything are 4x8.
- al_borland 3y agoFrom what I’ve heard, trucks are huge now due to various fuel efficiency regulations. A big truck is easier to make with fewer regulations. It seems like all the electric trucks want to prove they are bigger and tougher than the ICE trucks, but it seems like the perfect platform for small trucks, as the the efficiency standards would become a moot point. I’m looking for trucks like the old Ford Ranger from the late 90s to come back. The Maverick was a start, but they need to take it a step further. Maybe it’s like with the Model S. First they have to prove it’s cool and remove all the excuses (too slow, too weak, not enough range), then they can scale down to the smaller more mass market options at lower price points.
- supportengineer 3y agoIf it weighs over 6000 pounds and you have a small business, you can completely write off 100% of the purchase in one year.
- pjot 3y agoCan you explain more? Not sure how that’s possible
- voidfunc 3y agoStandard tax deduction for businesses as a work truck. Technically you need to be using it only for business reasons but we all know how fuzzy small business owners get with that kind of stuff sometimes.
- shampine 3y agoProbably referring to a section 179 deduction which gives you a $25k deduction on your taxable income for vehicles that weigh more than 6000lbs.
- er4hn 3y agoaka the Benz AMG exception: https://www.mbotw.com/section-179-tax-exemption/ https://www.mbotw.com/section-179-tax-exemption/
- zitterbewegung 3y agoI don’t think the perspective of selling product X should be judged in a vacuum because it can do things like subsidize battery costs. For video cards they got to the point where average consumers could buy them and then that started the road to accelerator cards. Saying that people shouldn’t buy something is naive and disingenuous. People will buy things regardless of anything else.
- joewadcan 3y agoWhen you say "we need" do you mean... "you want to see" ? The highest selling vehicles are trucks and so the company that makes the best selling car wants in. Seems logical and good for the industry
- unethical_ban 3y agoWhat's the point of your pedantry? Does it aggravate you to see people have the opinion that markets don't always reflect what is best for society?
- Moto7451 3y agoThe Rivian is probably their real competition based on price, specs, and trim.
- metadat 3y agoRivian has better range despite being heavier, and is generally more useful and practical. I happen to own two Rivians (S & T), definitely dubious purchases.. but not compared to a Cybertruck! Btw the Tesla graffiti font is extremely disappointing, completely illegible and not even cool looking. How did marketing sign off on this? Edit: @LightBug LoL!
- LightBug1 3y agoYou should send you feedback to their Head of Comms: Elon Musk.
- WaxProlix 3y agoI've got an R1T and am considering an S as well - feeling really good about the purchase after these numbers dropped. Wonderful truck, with the exception of occasionally unreliable infrastructure :shrug:
- slantedview 3y agoIf Tesla is anything like Twitter, Elon told marketing what he wanted and nobody said no.
- valval 3y agoFrankly Tesla will have ramped CT production well before Rivian can meet demand. “Prototypes are easy, production is hard.”
- barbazoo 3y agoWe have a pipeline being built through our city right now. It's absolutely hilarious for me to see the temporary company parking lot for about 100 vehicles full of mostly pick up trucks because they're actually being shuttled between the construction site and the parking lot in ... buses. This is what I think of when people talk about how they need trucks :)
- LTL_FTC 3y agoIt's all ego. They need the large trucks to impress their coworkers who also have the large trucks.
- XorNot 3y agoWell this is sticking your head in the sand about it. People own trucks because while trucks might not be particularly good at some things, they're also not particularly bad at them. If you need to move large or heavy items occasionally, it's really handy having a truck...and the thing is, it won't be bad at doing car things either. To the specific example here, you also have the obvious missing part: people are having to drive from home to the parking lot, to catch the bus to the site. The failure is pretty obvious. Pile onto that that most construction workers generally have to assume that they might need to use the truck for work sometime, and it's an obvious purchase: you can't afford two cars, but you can afford one slightly more expensive one that will be as good at everything you need as a smaller one. People complain about trucks without even trying to understand where the motivation to own them comes from.
- PpEY4fu85hkQpn 3y agoMost Pickup Truck Owners Don’t Actually Do Any Truck Stuff. > Only 7.0% of truck buyers frequently use their trucks to tow. About 2% of people use their trucks to tow occasionally, while 63% of owners rarely or never tow. > But at least 28% of owners frequently use their trucks for personal hauling, while 47% of owners occasionally haul. Nearly 32% of owners rarely or never haul personal items. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/most-pickup-truck-owners-dont-actually-truck-stuff/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/most-pickup-truck-owners-dont-a...
- notatoad 3y ago>Of course, most of the buyers of either the Cybertruck or the F150 Lightning probably aren't getting much dirt under their fingernails anecdotally, the lighting seems to be a pretty popular work truck. maybe not with independent tradespeople, but i've seen quite a few recently across BC and alberta in municipal government fleets. Parks Canada has a bunch, and BC ferries is using them to drive around their terminals. I'm assuming it's part of some government madate to electrify their fleets.
- TexanFeller 3y ago> same 250 mile range but AWD standard AWD is much less important on a truck than most people think. I spent my youth driving my family’s farm trucks around in the mud and driving large cattle trailers to auctions. No one in my family could afford a 4WD, but there was maybe one or two times ever that I felt like I needed it. Mostly it’s just huge cost and a large amount of weight and fuel economy lost for rural people to signal their high status.
- floxy 3y ago4x4 in the summer? Yeah, not so much. 4x4 in areas with real winters with ice and hills and mountains? Yes indeed that is quite an improvement.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoI won't deny it can be useful, but it's still not needed. I grew up in Wisconsin (which certainly qualifies as real winters) and you can get by just fine in the winter without 4x4. The biggest problem by far in the winter isn't traction, it's being able to stop when you need to stop. AWD doesn't help with that at all.
- potatochup 3y agoThe traction control is also significantly better on EVs because you have much quicker response times. I've made it up to ski fields in a RWD Tesla Model 3 with summer tires easily.
- warbeforepeace 3y agoYou are crazy. Most pickups absolutely need AWD. A little bit of rain and a RWD pick up is sliding all over the place unless you put a ton of shit in the bed.
- WheatMillington 3y ago$50k Cybertruck will never exist, any more than $30k Model 3 existed.
- reducesuffering 3y agoMusk promised $35k Model 3, which did in fact exist at first, for a couple months. It's now $39k. https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/11335272/tesla-model-3-announced-price-release-date-specs-preorder https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/11335272/tesla-model-3-an... https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now
- oittaa 3y agoInflation adjusted that $35k would be over $43k nowadays so it's actually quite a lot cheaper than promised. And it comes with many features included like Autopilot, which I think was a $3k option back then.
- _ea1k 3y agoYep, and it was a better vehicle than originally announced to. The pack was top limited in software too, so it supercharged pretty well.
- angoragoats 3y agoThe initial Cybertruck announcement had the three trim levels priced at $39,990, $49,990, and $69,990. This is a price increase of between $21k and $30k, across the board. The original top-level $69,990 trim also advertised a 500-mile range, which is now down to 320 miles. Were they just making shit up? If I had put a deposit down back in 2019 I'd be pretty upset. Edit: I just looked and Musk himself has stated that there have been over 1 million preorders/deposits for this vehicle. So they collected at least $100MM of customer money based on completely made up pricing/specs. WTF.
- m463 3y agoWhen I look at this webpage, it seems like the initial announcement all over again. They just want you to put down a deposit, and says "reserve" not "buy".
- ajross 3y ago> The cheapest F150 Lightning (available today not in 2025) is $50k FWIW, I just checked, and I can't find any Lightning base models for sale in my metro area. Are these actually available or is it just marketing? That kind of thing is routine in the auto industry, where dealers never seem to have the base model in stock ("But for just a little bit more, see what you get!"). Whether or not the weird-looking space truck succeeds or fails is yet to be seen, but I really don't think it will be on price. These numbers look very competitive to me. Tesla is slightly more expensive at the low end, but likely makes up for it with the supercharger network. Probably the make/break item is going to be the body styling, which we all suspected.
- codeulike 3y agoWe need a lot more Chevy Bolts I dont understand, there are millions of 5 door hatchback evs being sold at the moment, from all different manufacturers, its the most popular form factor for evs by far.
- juli1pb 3y agoDo you mean something like Aptera? https://aptera.us/ https://aptera.us/ This really excites me. I had 2 Cybertruck reservations, I cancelled them and ordered an Aptera. I think this is what we really need: smaller car with efficiency in mind.
- danans 3y agoI like the Aptera, but no, I mean more small EVs like the Chevy Bolt.
- giantrobot 3y agoThose things are the Duke Nukem Forever of electric cars. I remember them taking reservations back in the 00s. I love the idea but I have no idea how the company still exists as they haven't delivered anything in almost two decades.
- gpm 3y agoPer wikipedia: Founded in 2006, returned deposits and then went out of business in 2011. Relaunched in 2019.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoI believe that car was the one Ed Begley Jr was driving in his Simpsons cameo
- keikobadthebad 3y ago[flagged]
- oooyay 3y ago> The cheapest F150 Lightning (available today not in 2025) is $50k (vs $60k for Cybertruck), same 250 mile range but AWD standard, and is a regular pickup truck compatible with standard accessories and parts for doing actual pickup truck work. I'd like to nitpick "doing actual pickup truck work". The Lightning gets terrible mileage, to the tune of roughly 100 miles on a charge, while hauling which ICE trucks do not unless under immense load [1]. It comes standard at 7,700 lbs towing or if you pay extra 10,000 lbs. At a $50k+ price an F-150 Lightning is not even barely resembling a truck doing truck things. For context, my Tacoma cost me $32k, has 6-7k lbs towing, and is much more compact. My point is neither the Cybertruck nor the Lightning are capable of doing truck things; they are rich peoples toys - which is fine until it's conflated with why people who use trucks buy them. I would love to buy an all electric version of my Tacoma or maybe even a Tundra that for ICE price + $10k can do the same hauling and mileage. There is absolutely a market here, but the technology to do so has not showed up yet. 1: https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f-150-lightning-range-towing-capacity-mileage-aaa-test-2023-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f-150-lightning-range-t...
- jacquesm 3y agoYou can't compare an EV pick up and an ICE truck like that, unless you specify what you call 'doing actual pickup truck work'. Plenty of companies don't put more than 100 miles on a truck every day and that means that their workload is a good match for an F150 Lightning even if it is hauling. Landscapers, city fleets and so on tend to move to a spot, stay there all day and then drive back and it's probably possible to charge them on either end of that trip. And they're never going to be further away than 100 miles from their home base.
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoNerds need to stop assuming what's best for tradespeople and offering unsolicited advice. Ultimately the market will decide. This usually comes up in the context of telling landscapers they should give up their gasoline powered tools and switch to battery; or, my personal favorite, "use rakes". The tradesmen will decide what is best for themselves, given the proper incentives, and we will adapt.
- bonestamp2 3y ago> same 250 mile range but AWD standard Unless I'm reading Ford's website wrong, 4x4 is not included at the $50k price... but I'd be happy to be wrong because that would be good value.
- danans 3y ago> 4x4 is not included at the $50k price... but I'd be happy to be wrong because that would be good value It's a happy day for you. All F150 Lightnings come with AWD standard, including the basic one: https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/models/f150-pro/ https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/models/f150-...
- abawany 3y agoIt was tough to find (it's odd that Ford is so subtle about this) but it is listed here: https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/models/f150-pro/ https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/models/f150-... ("dual electric motors, one for each axle"). They were so busy 'materializing' their specs pages they forgot to mention this feature anywhere afaict - I had to search on their site to find the above page.
- bonestamp2 3y agoThank you. 4x4 is also a "preference" checkbox on the quote tool, which makes me think it is not standard, and it calls out RWD drive all on the models on the main page (but in a vague way where it's not even clear that 4x4 is available).
- panarky 3y ago> available today None of the CTs are available today, they're all at some unspecified point in 2024. The cheapest CT is ostensibly available in 2025, but estimates from this company that far out are hilariously worthless. Prospective customers of the cheapest CT might remember the cheapest Model 3, which the CEO promised to deliver in July, 2017, but actually began delivery in February, 2019. > same 250 mile range but AWD standard That "(EST.)" next to the range is doing a lot of work! Range expectations should be informed by the company's sordid history of rigging the in-car display to inflate range projections, then creating a special "Diversion Team" to cancel customer service appointments related to range issues, regulatory action and fines for misleading advertising about vehicle range, Edmunds finding that Tesla models often fail to meet their advertised ranges, etc.
- ianai 3y agoPlus how is it going to feel to own this when battery tech improves and the range extender feels ever more obsolete? It’s a slower version of how computers felt back in the 90s to early 2000s. Ie as soon as bought it was quickly obsolete.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- danans 3y ago>> available today > None of the CTs are available today, they're all at some unspecified point in 2024. >> same 250 mile range but AWD standard > That "(EST.)" next to the range is doing a lot of work! You misread my comment. My statement about availability today and range of 250 miles refer to the F150, not the Cybertruck.
- SrslyJosh 3y ago> same 250 mile range We don't actually know what the Cyberjoke's range will be. Given Tesla's history with range claims, there's no reason to trust the numbers on that website. See: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-customers-sue-firm-over-grossly-exaggerated-ev-range/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/10/doj-subpoenas-tesla-in-probes-of-autopilot-and-driving-range-estimates/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/10/doj-subpoenas-te...
- maxdo 3y agooh common, that is clearly another social media vs Twitter fight. It's not Tesla place the range. It's EPA range. Just read the article: >Tesla vehicles failed to accurately account for external factors impacting battery performance and vehicle range, leading to a gross overestimate of the vehicle's range. So, Karens want tesla to account for a/c temperature preferences, rain, wind, snow on the road, and other factors. No other manufacturers do so. You have an EPA range, and if you decide to speed 85 m/h while having a 10% charge, you will dramatically lose your range. It's the same with any car. >Testing is done at EPA's NVFEL facility and by vehicle manufacturers at their own facilities. EPA audits the data provided by vehicle manufacturers and performs its own testing on some of the vehicles to confirm the results. The only reason it is "estimated", they didn't finish EPA testing yet.
- SrslyJosh 3y ago> that is clearly another social media vs Twitter fight. What? > So, Karens want tesla to account for... Tesla customers. People who paid $50,000+ for the privilege of owning a Tesla. Being dissatisfied with the performance of the car makes them "Karens"? Gee, I hope you guys remembered to formally excommunicate them from the Church of Musk. Edit: Ah, I think I see the problem. Have you considered that the range is really important for a vehicle that can only be "refueled" either at home or at a handful of proprietary charging stations? Having a bad range estimate could really fuck up a road trip, especially before the charging network was built out to a reasonable density. Nobody who's paid 50k for a car wants to limp to the next charger at 45 MPH with the windows rolled down (or worse, run out of power) because the manufacturer couldn't (or didn't want to) make a realistic range estimate.
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- chrisco255 3y ago> Everyone I know doing construction/trade work tends to drive much smaller pickups. No, it's extremely common to be driving an F-150 or bigger in construction.