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Italy bans cultivated meat products
- underdeserver 3y agoThis is a bit extreme, but will ultimately solve itself. Once cultivated meat is significantly cheaper and tastes as good as real meat, the world will move to it, and Italy will eventually follow suit.
- fooker 3y agoCultivated meat is cancer by definition. It is just as likely that the idea will peter out slowly.
- goldenkey 3y agoFactory farmed meat is cancer too. I'd say, save the animals, and give a little toxicity to all the proles who haven't gone unprocessed plant-based yet.
- fooker 3y agoSure, I don't disagree.
- peterpost2 3y agoThat seems a bit far fetched, this is only the very beginning of that field of research.
- fooker 3y agoAnd the beginning is exactly that, how to prod cancer cells to grow tissues.
- unnamed76ri 3y agoChasing taste over nutrition is what has led to all the nutrient deficient food we currently have. Unfortunately, that probably doesn’t mean you are wrong.
- phstack 3y agoIs it viable to manually inject nutriënts into the meat?
- orangepurple 3y agoDo you not realize the absurdity of your own question?
- sevagh 3y agoI thought it was chasing cosmetics, size, and quantity (e.g. giant bland tomatos, overfed hormone chicken) that led to nutrient deficiency.
- unnamed76ri 3y agoYes all those things also. I oversimplified for the sake of brevity.
- Spivak 3y agoIs there any reason to believe this will happen or is it just pure hopium? Like what are the odds the new thing will be the same, cheaper, less cruel, and better for the environment? We can't even make non-meat meat that's as cheap as meat and you didn't even have to grow or feed the cow.
- aik 3y agoShort term: Odds are very low. Long term: Odds are very high. Science is not done in TikTok videos.
- llamataboot 3y agoHave no idea about cost. I don't have much of an ethical problem with killing and eating humanely and sustainably raised and cared for animals for a reasonable degree of those things, factory farming and assembly line slaughterhouses are not that. Better for the environment seems a no brainer given the ecological costs of the amount of meat we eat. I can't imagine it will be the same as in no difference at all, or undetectable, maybe it will even always be more delicious, but I think it's reasonable to think that for lots and lots of dishes with meat in it, it would pass a blind taste test. Raw steak, maybe not. Beef stew or chicken curry or a burger - def...
- i_am_jl 3y ago>We can't even make non-meat meat that's as cheap as meat and you didn't even have to grow or feed the cow. In the US if you remove the government subsidies from meat production the price of a pound of ground beef jumps ~500%. https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi...
- shrubble 3y agoThats so obviously ridiculous on its face, it's not even worth answering. In what nation is ground beef 5x the price of USA?
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- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y agoBy then, people will have certainly realized it's much cheaper and healthier to just eat unprocessed plant-based protein foods.
- MattGaiser 3y agoThe key thing though is whether it is tastier.
- martin_a 3y agoIt's all about the spices. I ate some chicken nuggets made out of rice and they tasted just like the ones from Mc Donalds.
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- laputan_machine 3y ago> I ate some chicken nuggets made out of rice Do other people not see how ridiculous this is? I partially agree with Italy's decision, at least to the naming of food. You didn't eat chicken nuggets made out of rice. You ate deep-fried rice balls trying to simulate the taste of chicken nuggets, and they might have tasted similar to chicken nuggets, but that is an incredibly low bar to set in terms of taste (mostly spices) and texture (terrible). The nutrient profile wouldn't have had nearly the amount of protein, vitamins or other nutrients an actual chicken nugget would have had, either.
- delecti 3y agoLets not pretend that McDonald's chicken nuggets are some natural unprocessed thing that humans have been eating for centuries. If I want a chicken mcnugget, I'm expecting a frankenfood. And if I can get them without needing to subject actual chickens to the horrors usually involved in factory farming, then so much the better.
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- krisoft 3y agoOr the Tom Scott equivalent of the 2300's will post a funny video about the weird historical reason why you can't buy your favourite rhino patty in Italy.
- simiones 3y ago> Once cultivated meat is significantly cheaper [than real meat]? Is there any real chance of that in the next, say, 100 years? I would imagine the bio engineering that evolution arrived at for converting nutrients to meat+organs+bone is quite close to optimal for its purpose. If so, getting anywhere near, even if you get rid of the organs + bones*, would need a looooong time. Especially since you'd be converting cheap workers taking care of animals with bio-engineers tending meat vats in pretty good sterility. *which anyway is probably not fully desirable if you expect the full taste of real meat
- its-summertime 3y agohttps://www.google.com/search?q=cow+chicken+efficiency&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=cow+chicken+efficiency&tbm=i... doesn't seem efficient with this near comical amount of disparity between animals
- gdhkgdhkvff 3y ago100 years is a very very long time. 100 years ago, a little over half of all homes in the US still didn’t have electricity. 100 years ago, around 2/3 of homes didn’t have a telephone. I would absolutely take the bet that we would have cheaper cultivated meat within 100 years, barring an extinction level event…
- dfxm12 3y agoI don't think so, at least not if that timeframe overlaps with the current regime. This is something like an ID pol issue for the conservatives in power in Italy (and FL). Further context focused on the US: https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-crickets https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric...
- barrenko 3y agoPersonally I give it the same P or timeline as quantum computing.
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- Eumenes 3y agoyeah sorry, just because some university researchers and VC backed silicon valley startups are into synthetic meat because they've crunched the numbers and think it'll make them billions and also tug at the collective guilt because of climate change, will not throw away thousands of years of human tradition.
- x86x87 3y agoCultivated meat is not going to taste better than real meat. I don't think this should ever be a goal.
- marcosdumay 3y agoWay to cap a nascent industry before it even finishes being born. We have no idea what cultivated meat can taste like, how healthy it can be, and how cheap it can become. Right now there is a handful of research-based companies trying to make the thing, and none really succeeded at anything.
- x86x87 3y agoWhat does that have to do with anything? People try new stuff all the time. Make sure consumers understand what it is and don't call it meat. Don't try to get consumption by selling a lie.
- marcosdumay 3y agoHum... I'm not sure you got the context of my comment. It's not a reply to the article.
- ct0 3y agoEconomies of scale will be a significant hurdle. Id imagine that there would have to be countries producing at a massive scale for your hypothetical to become reality.
- Ekaros 3y agoOr it might not... It might be that cultivated meat will never scale in price or match the structure and profile of real meat. Still, Italy is in many cases on premium products so they would be last ones to die anyway...
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- dsgnr 3y ago[flagged]
- gumballindie 3y agoBecause they dont treat their citizens like cattle and protect their local industries to avoid mass unemployment?
- robertlagrant 3y ago> they dont treat their citizens like cattle "We replaced our citizens with plant-based citizen alternatives, as they fart less".
- goldenkey 3y agoWe've replaced our plant-based citizen alternatives with stars. They twinkle and we like to look at them.
- unethical_ban 3y agoIf they could read, they'd see the writing on the wall. So much for a free market, eh? Yes, upheavals are bad, but it isn't like the idea of cultivated meat substitute is from three months ago.
- reedf1 3y agoUltimately protectionism has many negative externalities. At best you are amortizing the pain of your economy becoming uncompetitive, at worst you are permanently kneecapping your future competitiveness.
- gumballindie 3y agoYeah but it also means you are not feeding your people chickenfeed. And since people with money will always seek real food, fakes being for the workers, it will keep their farming industry healthy running.
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- cs702 3y agoItaly's minister of agriculture explains the decision: "With the law approved today, Italy is the first nation in the world to be safe from the social and economic risks of synthetic food." The OP adds that the new law "also prohibits the use of meat-related terms, like 'salami' or 'steak', for plant-based meat substitutes." The unintended consequence of the new law is to ensure that Italy 100% misses out on the many promising social, economic, and environmental benefits of a transition to lab-based meats. The new law strikes me as very shortsighted. I hope Italy eventually comes to its senses and repeals it. Sigh.
- sebstefan 3y agoThey have a reactionary far right government since September 2022. They've got more where that came from
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- YakBizzarro 3y agoYes, but Italy is a parliamentary republic, the president has only a ceremonial/ guarantee role. Governments/parliaments last much less, maximum 5 years, but often way less
- sebstefan 3y agoMerf I just found that out and edited it right before you posted.
- peoplefromibiza 3y agoAs an Italian, I despise them as any other reasonable person. But this decision is not unreasonable. Let the World eat it so we can gather data. We are Italians, we've never been early adopters of anything coming from outside our borders. Especially food wise and except mobile phones. It is also not unreasonable to label things for what they really are. Almond juice is not milk as in "the white liquid food produced by the mammary glands of mammals" and plant based meat substitutes are not a steak or a burger, they are vegetable patties.
- i_am_jl 3y agoI'm not sure what I expected their reasoning to be, but "we have to protect farmers" wasn't it.
- draw_down 3y ago[dead]
- mrpopo 3y agoI didn't care much about it, but now that it's going to be banned, I feel like I should try it while I can. Where can I get some of this cultured meat in France?
- succo 3y agoI'm Italian, and unfortunately, we currently have shortsighted politicians. They seem clueless about their actions, and rather than promoting progress and research in various fields, they are attempting to halt time or, in some areas, even regress. They are a group of illiterate fascists who don't even understand how they attained their positions. The advent of cultivated meat doesn't mean that our Italian traditions will be eradicated in its favor. Both can coexist, allowing people to decide what's best for themselves and the planet. For instance, Italy has a ban on GMOs, yet our intensive farming practices involve feeding chickens and other animals imported GMOs daily. So, what's the point of this ban? It's mere propaganda with no scientific basis, and it's ruining our country. Extra fun fact: Lollobrigida (Italy's minister of agriculture) holds his position as a Minister, solely because he is the husband of the Prime Minister's sister, and that's the extent of his qualifications.
- thefz 3y agoI am Italian as well and this law is bullcrap to divert the public attention from real problems. But I am happy to let other, "more innovative" countries be the lab rat on this.
- misja111 3y agoDoes this mean that McDonalds will be banned as well?
- Eumenes 3y agoGood for Italy. They have perhaps one of the richest food/cooking cultures in the world. Fake meat is an affront to that. Not only is it expensive and gross, but insanely processed with a mile long list of ingredients. Ground beef usually has one ingredient: beef. I've gotten a good chuckle over the years seeing it disappear from shelves and menus. I'm sure you can still find it in abundance at Whole Foods in SF or Portland Oregon, but now I routinely see maybe 1-2 items and the stock is always full. People wouldn't even touch it during covid when everything was flying off the shelf.
- matthewfelgate 3y agoThe American perspective, which prioritizes fostering innovation, contrasts sharply with the approach in many European governments, where there seems to be a prevailing tendency to legislate and impose restrictions. This difference in mindset is a key factor in why the United States is making more rapid economic advances compared to Europe.
- mrpopo 3y agoNon-substantiated cause-effect relation. Switzerland and Sweden are both ranked more innovative than the US, despite stronger legal restrictions (food-wise or otherwise). https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/09/worlds-most-innovative-countries-innovation/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/09/worlds-most-innovativ...
- thefz 3y agoLet the poor American rest, they still think more money == best.
- Fervicus 3y agoThat seems like a rather one sided, rose-tinted glass view of American government.
- unnamed76ri 3y agoAnd probably a few decades out of date
- matthewfelgate 3y agoThen your explanation why USA GDP is far outpacing Europe?
- bawolff 3y agoSeems stupid. As long as its safe, people should be able to eat it if they want. > The measure also prohibits the use of meat-related terms, like ‘salami’ or ‘steak’, for plant-based meat substitutes Im actually ok with this. Vegetarian food should stop pretending to be something its not and be willing to stand on its own feet as what it is.
- preisschild 3y agoAgreed 100%. Plant-based meat is not the same as normal meat at all. Synthetic meat is the same though.
- game_the0ry 3y ago> Im actually ok with this. Vegetarian food should stop pretending to be something its not and be willing to stand on its own feet as what it is. I concur -- food labels should be accurate, not deceptive. Food industry does not have a lot of credibility at the moment, and deceptive labelling wont help with that.
- dfxm12 3y agoWhen you look at steak in m-w, you might be surprised to learn that one of the definitions for steak is: a thick slice or piece of a non-meat food especially when prepared or served in the manner of a beef steak. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steak https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steak
- xinayder 3y agoWhen was this entry added? Pretty sure they added this definition because they were pressured by vegan groups to include a non-meat definition. Steak is historically meat based, nothing will change that. A plant-based steak is not a steak.
- thiht 3y agoDictionaries add definitions based on common usage, and in common usage, « xxx steak » can definitely refer to a plant based steak. If I say « soy steak », you definitely know what it refers to, and it’s not ambiguous with « steak » alone. Same with coconut milk, would you be confused with cow milk with some coconut bits in it? No.
- smnrg 3y agoThere's a pretty good episode from recent (4 years-ish) South Park: “Let Them Eat Goo”(1), where Cartman only desired to "eat the same garbage" he always has, and since the “goo” is definitely garbage, he does not care that it is more sustainable or ethical. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_Them_Eat_Goo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_Them_Eat_Goo
- iammjm 3y agoThis is super dumb. I am very much hoping synthetic meat will replace "traditional" meat (mainly due to ethical reasons, aka less animal suffering)
- smnrg 3y agoI understand this apparently altruistic reason: rather than educate people to avoid massacres, you'd replace everyone with mannequins. So they're free to massacre mannequins. If we are to become saints because we made synthetic goo to save cows, I'd say we are still pretty lazy because we learned nothing about the ethics of killing other suffering beings like us on this planet. (Being provocative: of course there is already empathy in that reasoning, but the root cause is still out there; our lack of empathy and greed.)
- Workaccount2 3y agoThis is just for show. There is no genuine lab meat yet, and Italy certainly wasn't doing much to pursue it anyway. So for the time being not much is really lost, but perhaps some political points are gained. Once lab meat becomes widely available and affordable, there will likely be a different government, a different public opinion, and a new law to allow it.
- laylower 3y agoHas there been unambiguous, conclusive proof that plant-based meat is safe or at least as safe as naturally derived meat? Noone likes big state but at the very least we should avoid making the same mistakes we have been making for decades with pesticides, forever chemicals etc before we declare victory for growing a burger patty.
- PurpleRamen 3y agoHas there been unambiguous, conclusive proof that animal-based meat is safe or that plant-based meat is unsafe? This is a very loaded and pointless question. Those products are sold for years already, they are tested enough to say that they won't kill you immediately. Everything else is pointless until you have some relevant clue to a real threat. But just as a reminder: we know that animal-based meat is unhealthy and can cause cancer. Still legal to sell, because at the level of normal consumption, it doesn't matter.
- thefz 3y ago> This is a very loaded and pointless question. Except that humans have been consuming animal meat since day zero. Lab grown, not so much.
- PurpleRamen 3y agoThe question was about plant-based, not artificial animal-meat from a lab.
- asadotzler 3y agoAnd humans have been eating plant based meals just as long or longer. Lab grown isn't topical for this sub thread.
- xinayder 3y ago> conclusive proof that animal-based meat is safe they have nutrients that our body requires, which are a lot harder to replace with plant-based alternatives
- jeroenhd 3y agoI believe cultivated meat does come with the necessary risks (imagine the kind of hotbed of viruses and resistant bacteria a piece of living flesh with no immune system can become!) and caveats (spiritual and ethical considerations that haven't been pondered, like "is this meat connected to a living soul" or "is this meat kosher/halal"), but the "we have to protect the farmers" defence is plain idiotic. The profits of the meat industry should never be a reason to work towards ending animal suffering. In fifty to a hundred years this guy could be a Disney villain.
- delcaran 3y agoAnother poor decision from my governament, pushing Italy further beyond the curve of innovation and scientific research, banning an entire industry sector before it's even born. Lucky for us, it's an useless law: if Europe choose to allow those products to be sold (which is currently not allowed), Italy must oblige. The only actual consequence of this law, aside from prohibiting some names for meatless foods, is denying the birth of a whole industry sector.
- DrThunder 3y ago[dead]
- coffeefirst 3y agoThis... basically doesn't matter. Italy is known for its food culture and they take it very seriously. If you don't believe me, try ordering a latte after noon. Cultivated meat is now in the realm of semi-feasible science fiction. In theory there's a Jose Andres restaurant where I could try it, in practice its very expensive and there's so little supply that very few people can even get that tasting menu. If it works out and winds up taking off, bans are reversible. Italy will never give up its red cows but who knows. On the other hand, everything I've read about cultivation is its an incredibly interesting science project. The texture is still weird, the price is still astronomical, despite an astounding quantity of resources poured into this you're just not going to be grilling lab-burgers any time in the foreseeable future. If the goal is to make meat sustainable, the fastest way to cut percentage points are to roll back American burger portions to what they were in the 1980s, and start a falafel craze.
- 23B1 3y agoGood. Italy has a very strong food culture and I'm glad someone will resist the cultural imperialism of spreadsheet brains. There's some things that tech cannot and should not solve.
- teslabox 3y agoI was recently at Costco waiting for my tire to be repaired, and saw a canister of "plant based" protein in the returns cart. The customer's reason for return: "tasted like sand". Proteins are composed of amino acids. Some amino acids are more important than others. Glycine is the simplest amino acid, and also has anti-stress properties. Other amino acids are excitatory. The main protein sources for the latest round of "plant based" protein products are pea protein and brown rice protein. Soybeans were used decades ago, but fell out of fashion on account of soy's phytoestrogen load. The process of separating seed protein from the starch is not incredibly complex. But someone said that seed protein is folded up for storage, and is not especially useful to our bodies anyways. Native Americans knew to boil their corn seeds in wood ash (alkaline material) - Nixtamalization - which I understands unfolds the proteins to make them more useful to humans. All corn tortillas are made with 'trace of lime', which means that corn has been properly boiled in a alkaline solution to be more edible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization The most abundant amino acid in gelatin is glycine. Second-place is proline. I don't grok the biochemistry, but I think it reasonable to propose that glycine is a much more reasonable foundation for the body's protein sources than the excitatory amino acids. The richest amino acid in the plant based protein powders I've looked at is glutamic acid. "[Glutamic acid is] the most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter in the vertebrate nervous system." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid (emphasis added) "Glycine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the central nervous system, especially in the spinal cord, brainstem, and retina. When glycine receptors are activated, chloride enters the neuron via ionotropic receptors, causing an inhibitory postsynaptic potential (IPSP)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine#As_a_neurotransmitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine#As_a_neurotransmitter (emphasis added) I recently blogged to tell people to make soup from their turkey carcass: https://radialappliance.teslabox.com/2023/11/cayce-approved-protein-sources/ https://radialappliance.teslabox.com/2023/11/cayce-approved-... I, for one, welcome Italy's defense of traditional food wisdom.
- seec 3y agoInteresting comment. Unlike the idiotic vegans who downvoted you to death. I will read more about this. It does match my experience of my stress level rising quite a lot when I go through period of no or very little meat meals (based on beans, quinoa and stuff like that). I think the whole plant-based diet is some sort of religious belief for moral superiority or something. The people who enforce those diets seem to not suffer too much because they tend to avoid using their brain and have rather low physical activity in my opinion. I personally have a very hard time sustaining a high level of physical activity and keeping my brain functioning on a mostly plant-based diet...
- robocat 3y ago> The measure also prohibits the use of meat-related terms, like ‘salami’ or ‘steak’, for plant-based meat substitutes. I mostly agree with this. Consumer protection laws should avoid this confusion in New Zealand, but they don't. For example the word beef is used for non-beef products - and they are stocked in the fridge section for beef. I guess it gets more pedantic if it is cultured cells. The product label should clearly indicate whether something came from a cow or not - without deception (similar to GMO labeling - which is about what buyer's think not what I think). The key is avoiding consumer confusion. Is a vege burger, or chicken bacon confusing? Steak is harder - Tuna steak, steak pie, steak sauce. Outright banning safe products is authoritarian (not equivalent to right-wing - see Stalin) - and farmers should not get government priority over consumers. But should a burger pizza be meat or not? https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/sacl/about/news/how-plant-based-meat-is-stretching-new-zealands-cultural-and-legal-boundaries https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/sacl/about/news/how-plant-based-meat-... Something like Beyond Meat Beyond Beef seems highly misleading to me (titles and brand names matter - I don't want to read fine print nor should I have to memorize every product detail). Impossible Chicken Nuggets have (Plant Based) in the same font but lighter colour which seems deceptive to me personally (although presumably legal). Hopefully our government can find the good compromise between consumers desire for plant-based foods, and meat industry abuse of consumer protection laws.
- manishsharan 3y agoI wonder how they feel about oat milk , soy milk and almond milk. These could also be categorised as "synthetic" similar to plant based meats. However Without these, my lactose intolerant coffee addicted personality would literally explode. Are there no lactose intolerant people in Italy?
- vergessenmir 3y agoThis decision avoids confusion. To see how ridiculous this sounds try the naming convention in the opposite direction: Meat-based spinach - tastes like the real thing. It's confusing, what am I really eating here?