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Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people of AD 6939
- zgs 3y agoI'm sure cockroaches will enjoy eating the microfilm when the capsule opens.
- disillusioned 3y agoNice.
- quickthrower2 3y agoThey will need to feed this into some AI to understand the ancient language. Hopefully they will know who Einstein was!
- eddtries 3y agoWe know of Egyptian doctors by name from a similar timeframe away in the past, so I assume they very well will! Especially because we’re better at archiving stuff deliberately now. For example Imhotep and Hesy-ra are both a doctor and dentist from over 4500 years ago
- unsupp0rted 3y agoWe’re much worse at archiving stuff now. We don’t spend the lives of slaves to carve data into rock anymore.
- csomar 3y agoThe irony is, we can do much better today and at scale too. Without the need of any slaves or dangerous labor. It's just it costs a bit, and god forbid someone misses the next quarterly goals.
- benj111 3y agobut theres 1000s of doctors and dentists that we don't know the names of. they might be aware of Dr Joe Bloggs in 6939, just because he carved his name in some rock, that doesn't imply they will have a deep knowledge of our famous scientists.
- coldtea 3y ago>we’re better at archiving stuff deliberately now. Are we? You can't beat pyramids and Rosetta stones for long term endurance AND easy access. Surely not with any digital media we have now, and if there's something like "Fall of Rome" collapse and loss of techniques and high end manufacturing because of some global war, climate change, comet, or something like that in the 4000 years until then, we might not even be able to read the stuff that did survive.
- Aeolun 3y agoAs chronicled in ‘A Canticle for Leibowitz’
- bobsmooth 3y ago"Internet Atrocity! GeoCities' Demise Erases Web History" https://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1936645,00.html https://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,193664...
- mdp2021 3y ago> feed this into some AI Einstein: "We hope future societies will achieve widely distributed heightened intelligence. It is a quality we see today in inventive, active minds"...
- quickthrower2 3y ago“society.tf”
- karaterobot 3y ago> “If we are remembered at all, it will be as the contemporaries of Herodotus and Mark Twain.” (Gene Wolfe)
- cm2187 3y agoThere is some irony in Einstein blaming people killing each others because of the stupidity of the masses vs the wiseness of intellectuals. The largest genocides of that period have been orchestrated by communist countries, supported by a lot if not most of of the intelligentsia, including I believe Einstein himself.
- adriancr 3y ago"intelligentsia" is not intelectuals, it just means secret police . I doubt Einstein was a member of the KGB or would even entertain that thought. Intellectuals were also murdered first / sent to hard labour to die, sent to political prisons, etc. (check out what Mao did or Stalin, khmer rouge, or any other communist regime) They were replaced by random poeople off the street based on their perceived loyalty to communism. In occupied countries russia basically put in russians at first to clean up everything / murder anyone they want. So you are wrong here.
- azangru 3y ago> "intelligentsia" is not intelectuals, it just means secret police . There are dictionaries online, you know? You could even type "define intelligentsia" into the Google search box, and get a decent answer.
- adriancr 3y agoHe made a bold statement: > The largest genocides of that period have been orchestrated by communist countries, supported by a lot if not most of of the intelligentsia First part is that Intelligentsia means intellectuals, which in russia after 1917 it did not. Google has issues with doublethink but you can find on wikiedia what they did to intellectuals and what they redefined the term to. It also does not cove the fact that it is equivalent to intelligence services but not the same. Second part is that Intelligentsia made genocides, which is ambigous, which intelligentsia? (the KGB?, if so, yes but they were not intellectuals, or the intellectuals?, if so, how?, they were all dead or not in power) Third part is that Einstein belonged to that which is even bolder illogical statement... He was not russian, not a part of the KGB, had no power or involvement.
- gnfargbl 3y ago> This is due to the fact that the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community. If he wrote this again today, I wonder what he would think about the relative "character" of those who produce things of value to the community. It's a mixed bag, from my point of view -- much like the rest of society.
- Anotheroneagain 3y agoIf he wrote it today he would get banned from the platform.
- unsupp0rted 3y agoAnd the people banning him for stating facts would be no Einsteins
- tralarpa 3y agoWhat facts?
- unsupp0rted 3y agoThat a curve of intelligence across human groups exists at all, and that it’s shaped pretty much like a bell.
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- doomlaser 3y ago> However, the production and distribution of commodities is entirely unorganized so that everybody must live in fear of being eliminated from the economic cycle, in this way suffering for the want of everything. Haven't fixed that yet :)
- altacc 3y agoIf anything we've doubled down on inequality.
- input_sh 3y agoAlso see his essay titled Why Socialism: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/ https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/ Last discussed a couple of months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37407331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37407331
- waihtis 3y agoIn most Western countries, people aren't dying of hunger. I'd say it's taken significant progress. Of course there's a sizeable chunk of people who want to live plush upper middle class lives without contributing a drop of sweat into the economy.
- tetris11 3y agoI think it's more that there's a sizeable chunk of people who want to live the same lives that their parents lived for the equal sweat cost, and are seeing a large disparity in what they're putting in compared to what is coming out
- benj111 3y agoWouldn't microfilm have been made from celluloid in this era, and so probably wouldn't 50 let alone 5000 years?
- coldtea 3y ago"The intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community" can only "produce some thing valuable" because it's supported by the 'masses', with untold open and untold invisible work at all levels.
- mdp2021 3y agoThis does not mean that the «masses» are excused from cultivating themselves, also in order to avoid those consequences creating the collective condition of «liv[ing] in fear and terror» - which is the point.
- coldtea 3y ago>This does not mean that the «masses» are excused from cultivating themselves I think the persons who pick up our shit and clean our offices and make food for us and stuff do have a lot of excuses of not having the time and energy for "cultivation"at the level of people whose job is to read and study.
- _Algernon_ 3y agoThere needs to be a term similar to "embedded emissions"[0] (embedded labour?) to capture this concept. Anyone who contributes with something deemed worthwhile to society by these types can only do so because they have a lot of embodied "un-worthwhile" work done for them by other people. Whether that is the farmer producing the food your eat, the truck driver delivering your amazon packages, the engineers maintaining the infrastructure you rely on, the person picking up your garbage, and so on. Nobody produces independently of others in a modern society, and any libertarian type that pretends otherwise needs a reality check. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_emissions
- mdp2021 3y agoBut Einstein did not suggest cultivation should be «at the level of people whose job is to read and study», he said that it should reach the level of avoidance of gratuitous violent hatred. Cultivation which remains mandated, because those people in topic have a job by definition and they have to perform it well, which implies some intellectual proficiency (moreover, they will be partially socially active, they will often be neighbours and in general meet people, and they will often be actors in democracies). Instead, reality is that a large number of those agents will be liabilities instead of assets, in the very performance of their jobs. So, «intelligence and character» remains more than a goal, a necessity.
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- nonrandomstring 3y agoThis is surely the strongest endorsement of education. Einstein nails what Emma Goldman said, "The most violent element in society is ignorance." There is such straightforward simplicity to his writing that it is over-interpreted today. Chiefly, Einstein's writing is compassionate, often comparable to Erich Fromm. Here we take him as an "elitist" insulting "the masses", who are by our definition today "poor". He often calls people idiots and is scathing about the uses to which we put technology; " I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots." "Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal" Albert Einstein would not survive for one moment in what we call "Academia" today. One of my students once remarked that he'd have been a Ted Kaczynski, only he built bigger bombs. Yet my favourite, which I'd hope people of the 7th Millennium will read and nod at: "In any conflict between humanity and technology, humanity will win."
- Gys 3y ago"In any conflict between humanity and technology, humanity will win." Yes, because there is always hope ;)
- jareklupinski 3y agoonly because 'technology' was created by humans, and because humans write bugs, bugs can be exploited to win it's still humans v humans at the end of the day
- mistrial9 3y ago.. if we make space for it, then it will grow
- tdba 3y agoHumanity will win until we don't
- digging 3y agoIt's a prediction that only seems true because there's still some human around to state it. Rather like proclaiming that I am certainly immortal because I've never died.
- smitty1e 3y ago> This is due to the fact that the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community. One rejects "incomparably". Sure, there is a distribution if intelligence and character. But one suspects that the variance isn't as pronounced (or important) as A.E. might suppose. As evidence, note the general rarity of a Newton or Einstein. At the other end of the distribution, note the elderly couple who have been happily married for most of their lives and have begotten a clan. History will remember The Names, but if we integrate joy over time, I'd contend that the anonymous couple may be more enviable.
- smitty1e 3y agoGreat seeing The Futility Closet on here after I mentioned it a week ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38125942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38125942
- lawlessone 3y ago>However, the production and distribution of commodities is entirely unorganized so that everybody must live in fear of being eliminated from the economic cycle, in this way suffering for the want of everything.
- trey-jones 3y agoI don't think I'm reading this wrong, but I'm definitely reading it differently than most commenters here: > the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few... I don't think Einstein is comparing the most intelligent individuals to the least (or average) here. Certainly there are individuals who are more intelligent than the average, but I would argue not incomparably so. I believe he's speaking about the tendency of large groups of people to act more like cattle than people. The intelligence of the mob (and the character, represented by the actions of the mob) are what I see as incomparably lower than that of an individual. And I think this is indicated by the other shortcomings of 20th century humanity that he passes along. War isn't waged by individuals (or even groups of exclusively idiots and villains). There are a bunch of physiological and sociological variables introduced that make the output of the group stupider and less caring than the output of the individual.
- crhulls 3y agoCould you also possibly be projecting your values on to Einstein? There is a tendency to modernize or whitewash the views of heroes of the past so they pass muster today. A generation ago we had far less reticence to categorize and rank people, for better and for worse. I don’t know enough about Einstein to have a strong opinion here so this is a question more than rebuttal. Does he normally write in loose metaphor or is he generally straight to the point?
- martincmartin 3y agoKeep in mind that Einstein was a German Jew, and 1939 was after Hitler had come to power, passed all sorts of extreme anti-Jewish laws, and then started World War II. So it's a fair bet this is really about "how could so many people vote for and support Nazis?"
- kvetching 3y agoThis is a good video for answering that question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830fVdBYJzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830fVdBYJzc
- jawns 3y agoAlbert Einstein in 1914 composed a message for his wife that was a little less forward-thinking: https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/02/einsteins-misogynist-manifesto-harsh-list-rules-scientist-gave-long-suffering-wife-7420388/ https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/02/einsteins-misogynist-manifest...
- Aeolun 3y agoThe article makes it seem much more bizarre than the list actually was (based on what I read at the bottom). He just wanted her to treat him as if they were seperated, but still living in the same house. I’m really not sure about all the washing and cleaning stuff, but it seems sort of regular if one brings in the money and the other stays at home (presumably taking care of the children). The only exciting thing there is that he wants to eat in his room. If you stay together for the children then why discard the one moment you share with them?
- tuetuopay 3y agoThis is very much in line with the thinking and society of the time, and not shocked at all by this piece given it was written in 1914. I read it as "be a housewife, I bring the money". Had this list been written in 2014 then yes, I'd be more than shocked. But for the time, I read it as a pretty standard thing. You would be surprised by how many "heroes" in the early 20th century were onboard with e.g. eugenics. You know, one of the key points of the third reich.
- huytersd 3y agoSeems completely reasonable.
- james_david 3y agoOh, how I miss the Futility Closet podcast! Truly the best corner of the web.
- hermitcrab 3y agoIt was one of the best podcasts around.
- hermitcrab 3y agoThe Futility Closet did a brilliant podcast 'featuring “forgotten stories from the pages of history” — surprising and curious tales from the past.'. I think it stopped because of health issues. But it is well worth checking out: https://www.futilitycloset.com/podcast/ https://www.futilitycloset.com/podcast/
- rawgabbit 3y agoEinstein's message was written in 1939 and WW2 had broken out in Europe. I would like to believe Einstein's message was a nerd's clumsy attempt at writing. I am paraphrasing what I believe he is trying to say below: We have achieved remarkable technological progress learning how to fly, crossing the oceans at will, and communicating across the continents via wireless means. Yet, we live in fear of being left out of the economic cycle and left to starve. Yet, we cannot plan for the future but in live in terror of the next war. This is due to the fact we only value people who produce something we value, the rest we throw away. I trust that future generations will view us with disdain and with moral superiority and rightfully so.
- typon 3y agoAlways heartening to see a reminder that Einstein not only was intelligent in his field of physics but clearly recognized the ideal economic system is socialism.
- scionthefly 3y agoSearching for the site of the time capsule on Google Maps makes me wonder -- has anyone created an archive of time capsule locations? I can think of at least three or four at my university alone, and a couple more in the surrounding community, but few people remember them and there is no central archive of info on them. I'm afraid many will simply be lost to time.
- notfed 3y agoAlbert Einstein makes a great Hari Seldon. (I've been watching "Foundation").
- verisimi 3y agoSurprise, surprise! Onestone's answer: What we need is communitarian technocracy!
- hagreet 3y agoWait you cannot hide posts without logging in? What?
- danbruc 3y agoThis is due to the fact that the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community. We could have a world without cashiers, you just take what you need from the shelves and throw the correct amount of money into a box. We could have a world without locks on houses, cars, and bikes. We could have a world with no trash on the ground. A world without police. I wonder what percentage of the masses prevents such a world.
- forkerenok 3y agoI think higher than we're willing to admit. And that number could include you, me and other people reading your comment. I don't remember who of the philosophers wrote about this, but they cautioned against being delusional about infallibility of ones own moral compass. At least that's my lossy reproduction of the thought. (I promise I'm not a cynic.)
- pnut 3y agoI'm not sold on the correlation between intelligence, character, and producing value. How many self made billionaires achieved their position by utterly disregarding both moral and legal dimensions? How many tiny villages exist on the fringes of capitalism, and operate primarily on the basis of trust?
- danbruc 3y agoHow many self made billionaires achieved their position by utterly disregarding both moral and legal dimensions? All of them if you apply strong enough moral values. Nobody can earn a billion by his own work, you can only become a billionaire by getting into a position where you can take a share of the work from many people.
- trey-jones 3y agoI might classify utter disregard of moral and legal dimensions as extracting value rather than producing value.
- jollyllama 3y agoNice.
- neilv 3y ago> This is due to the fact that the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community. This seems like a dangerously bad idea. Isn't it intuitive that, for every one-in-a-billion genius with a heart of gold, there will be numerous people who only think that they know vastly better than most others? And we can see examples of people with much more than their share of influence or resources, who seem to see themselves as historical great figures, who will do what others don't have the mind/will/strength to do. With nary a hint of gold in them thar hearts. How about, instead, we elevate the masses, and embrace more egalitarian models, like democracy? That elevating was an early promise/hope of things like the Internet. Now we have to smack down a bunch of people who sabotaged that, with greed and dimwittedness, dragging down the intellect and character of the masses, while presumably fancying themselves great figures.
- mistermann 3y ago> How about, instead, we elevate the masses, and embrace more egalitarian models, like democracy? Genuine democracy, or the theatrical impersonations we have that citizens are brainwashed into believing are genuine democracies?
- sershe 3y agoThere's always an alternative of trying to make society more meritocratic and letting the cream rise to the top. But if it wasn't, recent history shows that someone with bad ideas that starts out with a heart of gold is far more dangerous than an evil genius, so I'd take my chances.
- LargeTomato 3y agoWell evil geniuses aren't real, they are a literary trope. So it makes sense that they are not as common as people who suffer moral decay.
- crtified 3y agoThere's something very vulnerable about the message. Almost a circular, self-proving logic. A dismayed recognition that humanity endlessly competes against one-another, for land, resources, principles, glory, superiority. And yet ... his own main focus has inevitably fallen back to that same human behaviour pattern too! - the behaviour which underpins the very systems and conflicts he laments elsewhere - that is : an individual or group subjectively categorising other people into the Superior and the Inferior, then making a world view of it. I must admit, I expected more.
- csours 3y agoNot even 100 years later, and we're already arguing about what he was trying to say. You can read about the time and circumstances that Einstein grew up in, but you didn't experience it, so you will always be missing some essential context. Trying to parse this without more background is foolishness. This was written at the beginning of WWII. What stage exactly, who had just been invaded or annexed is not really important. Every observant person in Germany saw something terrible coming since before Hitler came to power. Most were in denial until it was much too late to do anything, but it was definitely something people were talking about. [0]> The first major law to curtail the rights of Jewish citizens was the "Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service" of April 7, 1933' Einstein saw well qualified people kicked out of their positions for being of the wrong racial background. I think you would call out low intelligence and character if you lived through this era. In 100 years, the most of today's references, euphemisms, and dog whistles will not be understood either. 0. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/anti-jewish-legislation-in-prewar-germany https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/anti-jewis...
- SillyUsername 3y agoThis is clearly tongue in cheek I wonder if they asked him to write something with high brow humour. The last paragraph gives it away, but in order to see why it's a giveaway you need to be able to understand why, which I'm guessing the people who asked him did not. In short for those who missed it, proud and justified superiority is a key reason why we still have economic classes which cause disparity and wars (particularly ethnic cleansing and WW2 which would have been in Einstein's mind when this letter was penned as it was just starting). Or maybe he was just humourously illustrating his predisposition to it too (i.e. call people stupid, illustrate you make the same mistakes).
- languagehacker 3y agoI'm on the satire boat for this one because it's the most objectivist thing I've heard Einstein say and he's never struck me as a Randian
- darepublic 3y agoThis could be made into a YouTube short. Einstein's message for the future. It would have a mix of ai generated images for the visuals with some of the stock YouTube short music evoking a mood simultaneously bad ass plus relevatory, the musical impact culminating in the point where he mentions the stupidity of the masses.