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Wyoming discovery could be America's first new source of rare-earths since 1952
- jseliger 3y agohttps://archive.ph/Aawzz https://archive.ph/Aawzz
- sn0wf1re 3y agoFor those with CAPTCHA loop and Apple News -- https://apple.news/AujQtUvL-R9am2u1SlBgbrA https://apple.news/AujQtUvL-R9am2u1SlBgbrA
- CSMastermind 3y agoMy understanding is that these rare-earths are not actually rare - what's rare is: 1. A country that will let you mine them 2. Refinery capacity Right now I believe the only refineries are in Australia and China but for obvious reasons the US is quickly trying to figure out how to build on here along with semi conductor fabs.
- shagmin 3y agoWhen I first read the headline China immediately came to mind. Just recently the US started investing in ports in other countries, just like China has done. And now the US will probably start competing on another front that China has taken a lead role in.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoIt’s weird, because the USA had done that investing long before China started belt and road, what was innovative about belt and road were the risk increase of the projects the Chinese took on, investments that western countries wouldn’t go anywhere near.
- infecto 3y agoI think the take generally is that China was fairly naive about its investments. Thats the belt and road projects would easily payoff as this has historically been working inside of China. I do think the US/EU could learn a bit from China here. My take is that the Chinese way has been something along the lines of, here take this loan, we will build some infrastructure, and at the same time move in some mining equipment, port or whatever is needed. The loan terms are way over ambitious but China is not trying to tell them how to govern. When the US goes in, its all about cleaning up the politics/human rights/something other clauses that all get tied to the money.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThis works for China ATM because they have a lot of excess labor (migrant workers) that they can send abroad, like India does (though on their own accord, not via SOEs). It also gives their SOEs something to do other than keep over investing in domestic infrastructure. So I get why they do it (and why they won’t be able to do it in a coupes of decades). But they take risks, like lending money to an unstable dictator who is unlikely to last more than a few years, it isn’t politics/human rights or whatever else, it’s simply that the countries are poorly governed and risk citizen revolts. China always has a shocked pikachu face when the unstable dictator they’ve been supporting gets overthrown/arrested/killed/etc… but anyone could have predicted it when they made the investments.
- QwertyPi 3y ago[flagged]
- civilitty 3y agoFinding a place to mine ore containing rare earth metals is easy, it's purely the refinery capacity that's the bottleneck with environmental laws being the limiting factor to building them. The vast majorities of countries will let you mine them but they're always in such low concentrations (hence "rare" earth) that it's not economical to haul massive amounts of crushed rock to a refinery in another country. Due to their chemistry they don't form very concentrated veins like a lot of other minerals do - the key is just collecting lots and lots of crushed rock. All of the methods use extremely nasty liquid-liquid extraction [1] techniques that require massive pools of toxic and corrosive extractants that are difficult to dispose of afterwards because they're quickly used up in the chemical reactions but remain very toxic. Anyone who allows cheap refineries pays a very heavy price long term [2]. Several other countries are actually pretty well set up to refine them on short notice but that infrastructure is reserved for refining uranium and other considerably more valuable metals. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extracti... [2] https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-toxic-aftermath-of-rare-earth-mining https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-toxic...
- joe_the_user 3y agoIndeed, The thing I'd want to add is that it's not technologically impossible to build a safe Lithium mine (or a safe nuclear power plant or a safe oil transportation infrastructure). It can be much more costly and so in these days of cost-cutting, unsafe operation is common. But one should still keep in mind safety isn't theoretically impossible.
- perihelions 3y agoThat yale.edu article needs additional context. It's verbatim repeating the PRC's talking points on the US-China trade dispute, the one over China's rare earth tariffs that was litigated before the WTO. The US position is that the export tariffs are a tactic to subsidize Chinese consumers of rare earths—their manufacturing sector—by giving them preferential prices for Chinese rare earths, the raw inputs. That's illegal under WTO rules. The PRC's position, what e360 is legitimizing (and amplifying), is that the West *morally deserves* to compensate China for the ecological costs of China's own mining industry, because we are its end consumers; and that these tariffs should be permitted under WTO rules as an environmental measure, not a protectionist one. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earths_trade_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earths_trade_dispute https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-trade-idUSTRE6BM3S420101223 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-trade-idUSTRE6B... https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2014/March/US-wins-victory-in-rare-earths-dispute-with-China https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-... It's jarring to suddenly be reading CPC foreign policy talking points in a random environmental article!
- defrost 3y ago> Right now I believe the only refineries are in Australia and China and Malaysia, with a new spodumene conversion facility being built in Texas by Tesla.
- Tagbert 3y agoisn't Spodumene a source of lithium instead of rare earths?
- defrost 3y agoRight - brain fart - I was thinking of rare-metal pegmatites found at (say) Greenbushes W.Australia that gets mainly mined for Li for batteries, but additionally for Be, Cs, Ta. Wrong class of 'rare'. That said, Malaysia stands - Mt. Weld here in W.Australia refines there: https://lynasrareearths.com/ https://lynasrareearths.com/ The Lynas Mt Weld mine in Western Australia is acknowledged as one of the world’s premier rare earths deposits. Lynas also operates the world’s largest single rare earths processing plant in Malaysia where it produces high-quality separated rare earth materials for export to manufacturing markets in Asia, Europe and the United States. I'd have to check but IIRC the industry release re: Tesla also outlined including rare earth processing - which makes sense, pooling all the toxic by product processing to a single location to avoid multiple hellscapes.
- perihelions 3y agoThe US' other major known deposits are in California. This discovery might actually be consequential, because Wyoming's an unregulated mining state (coal and stuff), while California's... the opposite of that. For historical background: California formerly extracted the majority of the world's rare earth elements, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#History
- beambot 3y agoThose regulations seem well-founded: California has a population density of 258.21 per mi² compared to 5.9 per mi² in Wyoming. And that doesn't even start to account for agricultural production for human consumption (versus livestock). Those limitations are reasonably founded if human wellbeing is the metric. Thus: This is good, despite any feelings about regulatory burdens.
- perihelions 3y agoSure, but this is in the Mojave desert.
- gotoeleven 3y ago[flagged]
- defrost 3y agoOak Flat is another sacred site .. but with an estimated 64 billion US of copper lying below. https://www.afr.com/world/north-america/rio-bhp-s-seek-resolution-of-us-copper-mine-stand-off-20211129-p59cyc https://www.afr.com/world/north-america/rio-bhp-s-seek-resol... I've got my fingers crossed for the discovery of a squintillion dollers worth of unobtanium beneath the Vatican and the White House to see how this plays out elsewhere. For social science!
- sgentle 3y agoI'm not sure exactly where the appropriate place is to mock the victims of genocide while they try to preserve what remains of their culture and land, but it's definitely not here.
- wnevets 3y ago#3 would probably be government subsidies. China spent a lot of money to drive competitors out of business.
- photochemsyn 3y agoRare earth refining traditionally generates a lot of toxic waste of various sorts. This could likely be mitigated but it would raise the cost of the finished product well above current market norms, so unless universal standards were applied, it would become unprofitable relative to China. There's a good overview of the difficulties involved (and some alternative approaches and replacement materials) here: https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/04/05/the-energy-transition-will-need-more-rare-earth-elements-can-we-secure-them-sustainably/ https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/04/05/the-energy-tran...
- gustavus 3y agoI don't think competing with China will be a major concern domestically in the US in a few years as I anticipate a renewal and resurgence of the trade war.
- chii 3y ago> well above current market norms which just indicates that the cost is externalized, and the current market price is too low. But it would take international cooperation to force such externalized costs back into the supply chain, and no gov't wants to do if not doing so is advantageous geopolitically and economically.
- jeff_carr 3y ago> Rare earth refining traditionally generates a lot of toxic waste of various sorts. Could someone explain why? It certainly seems obviously easier than radioactive waste. All that has to happen is a stable solid. Why are there liquids?
- defrost 3y ago> All that has to happen is a stable solid. What does that mean? Rare earths are "rare" for two reasons - they are spread about and don't appear in high concentrartions - at least one is "as common" in the crust as copper but it doesn't form in massive lumps of "quite a lot together" in the manner of copper (which forms in several types of clumps, eg [1]). The other reason they are rare is that they are mostly geochemically bound to other things in the way that silver and gold are not - a strong chemically reaction is required to free them and make them appear - that's a lot of wetwork with acids | reactive gases | etc [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_copper_deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_copper_deposit [2] https://www.britannica.com/science/rare-earth-element/Processing-ores https://www.britannica.com/science/rare-earth-element/Proces... Additionally (each ~ an hour) The Chemistry and Geology of the Clay Rare Earths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFwrg4wWsm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFwrg4wWsm4 Options for the separation of Rare Earth Elements: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMbsOjj_hls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMbsOjj_hls (or search and find a lecture | paper of your preference)
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoThe push to roll out new semi fabs is only to add redundancy for defense purposes. They absolutely will not be rolling out cutting edge consumer ICs and they'll be perpetually running under capacity without ever turning a profit.
- jl6 3y agoWhat if defense wants cutting-edge ICs?
- injeolmi_love 3y agoGenerally speaking, defense prefers older, reliable, and well understood technology rather than the cutting edge stuff. It’s cheaper, easier to mass produce, and less likely to fail under extreme conditions.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoThey don't and they haven't since the 80s. The military needs reliability in harsh conditions above all else and modern processes can't deliver that. The military also doesn't care about the economic benefits of die shrinks so that driver is missing.
- jl6 3y agoFront-line needs reliability, but the military has a lot of backend too, and they may well be interested in a secure supply of powerful GPUs running all kinds of AI-type workloads that don’t need to be on the battlefield. Something like continuous satellite surveillance of enemy territory with automated flagging of suspicious activity.
- rocqua 3y agoThe 'rare' comes from the fact that the ore is not at all concentrated. The material is 'rare' within your earth.
- Animats 3y agoRefinery capacity, big problem. There's a lot of talk. Here's a rare earths refinery site in Fort Worth, TX, supposedly under construction for MP Minerals, the Mountain Pass mine people. Press release from 18 months ago.[1] Current view in Google Street View.[2] Some heavy equipment, and a billboard with the same picture as the press release, but they haven't even excavated the foundation as of that 2023 picture. US DoD put $35 million into this project. [1] https://mpmaterials.com/articles/mp-materials-begins-construction-on-texas-rare-earth-magnetics-factory-to-restore-full-us-supply-chain/ https://mpmaterials.com/articles/mp-materials-begins-constru... [2] https://earth.google.com/web/search/Independence+Parkway,+Fort+Worth,+TX/@32.98151158,-97.25098424,211.82402039a,0d,15y,9.2788606h,94.21537428t,0r/data=CigiJgokCclw4RfogEBAEVAY2dlUgEBAGQkTz7qoUljAIV33lYJQU1jAIhoKFk1BZGhpajhmTUJXMnVkUkJNTVFoeFEQAg https://earth.google.com/web/search/Independence+Parkway,+Fo...
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y agoYes, "rare" in this context doesn't mean the materials are rare geographically, but rather that they occur in very low concentrations which requires processing large volumes of ore. This is environmentally very destructive so in recent decades the world has been happy to let places like China do it.
- wnevets 3y ago> but rather that they occur in very low concentrations which requires processing large volumes of ore. IIRC those concentrations are similar to copper and other metals
- hanniabu 3y agoRip Wyoming wildlife, the land will get ravaged and rivers will get contaminated
- throwaway914 3y agoI don't know why your comment is being invalidated. Even in the best of cases when we try to protect wildlife preserves, there is undoubtedly collateral damage, and it ebbs over 40-90 years.
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoIt’s an existing coal mine. In east Wyoming, well away from critical habitats. And rare-earth mining isn’t dirty, it’s the refining that pollutes.
- mtnGoat 3y agoCorrect the mining itself isn’t too terrible. But is it not likely a local refinery will follow? I don’t think shipping ore to Australia or Malaysia will be cost effective.
- rocqua 3y agoIt might be cost effective if you can export the externalities of rare earth refining. It is a deeply toxic process. The only reason we don't want to rely on China is geopolitical. Besides that everyone would be happy to have China take the pollution it takes for the rest of the world to transition to electricity.
- samtho 3y agoThere are a bunch of steps in the refining process. One of the first step is pulverizing/grinding where you can separate out the constituent components based on density. This step can done locally and will cut the volume of the ore by 75-90 percent. However, given the regulatory environment in the US surrounding refinement, there is likely a huge opportunity for innovation in this space.
- DoreenMichele 3y agoRare-earth elements are important to the green energy revolution. China controls a lot of rare-earth elements as well as rare-earth refining. This is worth enough money they are considering building a refining site locally, which would be a good thing. Wyoming is the least densely populated state in the continental US. The only state more sparsely populated is Alaska. So I'm not surprised there are things we don't know about what is there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...
- gexla 3y agoTechnically, Alaska is still part of the continental US as it's still part of North America. In Alaska, we would call the "contiguous US" as "the lower 48."
- DoreenMichele 3y agoThank you. Mistranslation of military speak. I actually think of it as conus.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoPersonally, I prefer distinguishing between the lower 48 and the freak states
- rocqua 3y agoHow would the massive pollution from the refining be handled if it occurs locally?
- gamblor956 3y agoThe important thing is that the source is an existing coal mine, meaning that they don't have to destroy/acquire any new land, so most (all?) environmental objections don't apply.
- m463 3y agoI still remember reading about people getting really sick living near tailings of a uranium mine, so there might still be things to watch out for.
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoIt’s also in Wyoming, which means it will actually get built.
- mtnGoat 3y agoThey will have to have room to refine as well as store most likely toxic tailings and byproducts. Coal is easier, just fill the hole back in (or don’t) and leave when it plays out. Rare earths, still have a massive clean up needed. Which based on western states’ history the cleanup seems to be funded by superfund, not the profiteers.
- davidw 3y agoNew Longmire plot just dropped. Edit: kind of surprised that got some attention... didn't think the HN set overlapped that much with the Longmire set.
- NicoJuicy 3y agoHe bought an existing old mine for 2 million. Did a rare earth test and it's now worth 37 billion $ --- Rare earth doesn't seem to be that rare
- chii 3y agorare earths are rare the same way common sense is common.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoRare Earths seem to be at the center of a misinformation perfect storm due to a) the connection to China b) the connection to renewables c) their confusing name And WSJ is a prime contributor to that. Just someone I vaguely trust doing a series of blog articles by checking some sources and providing context to the Wikipedia article without an agenda would be nice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element Some random highlights: > Through the 1960s until the 1980s, the Mountain Pass rare earth mine in California made the United States the leading producer. > Searches for alternative sources in Australia, Brazil, Canada, South Africa, Tanzania, Greenland, and the United States are ongoing.[68] Mines in these countries were closed when China undercut world prices in the 1990s, and it will take a few years to restart production > Significant quantities of rare-earth oxides are found in tailings accumulated from 50 years of uranium ore, shale, and loparite mining at Sillamäe, Estonia.[104] Due to the rising prices of rare earths, extraction of these oxides has become economically viable. The country currently exports around 3,000 tonnes per year, representing around 2% of world production > Ce and La are important as catalysts, and are used for petroleum refining and as diesel additives. Diesel additives!
- driggs 3y agoA team at West Virginia University is trying to scale a process which extracts rare earth elements from coal mine "acid mine drainage". The hope is that the process helps to clean up AMD - itself an environmental hazard remaining after coal mining - and produce rare earth elements from what would otherwise be waste. https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2023/04/05/wvu-researchers-earn-8m-for-rare-earth-extraction-facility-an-economic-and-environmental-game-changer https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2023/04/05/wvu-researchers-... https://wvwri.wvu.edu/divisions/critical-materials https://wvwri.wvu.edu/divisions/critical-materials