8 ms·

Toyota recalls nearly 1.9M RAV4s to fix batteries that can cause a fire

91 points by thm 3y ago

stillbourne 3y ago
Surprising. I bought a 2015 RAV4 used in 2017. It still had the factory battery, I didn't have to replace that until last year when it finally bit the dust. I think that's the longest I've ever had a factory battery last on a car.
- organsnyder 3y ago
  Looks like the issue is with replacement batteries that aren't quite the same dimensions as the OEM ones.
  - rwaksmunski 3y ago
    Some OEM batteries are made in Japan with virgin, not recycled, lead. My Lexus (Panasonic) battery lasted 11 years.
    - tony_cannistra 3y ago
      seems like you're suggesting that recycling lead has some kind of impact on battery longevity? Can you provide more detail there?
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        If you just re-melt, scoop of the crap and recast the lead you may end up with less pure lead than if you were to 'properly' (for instance by reducing it to get rid of any lead oxide) recycle it.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      Expectations of battery life, and typical experiences, assume a certain amount of stress such as extreme temperatures and occasional deep cycling. Someone who keeps their car garaged, never plays the radio for a while after shutting the engine off, and never accidentally drains the battery is going to have an outlier like you're describing. I'm no expert but my understanding is that these types of (potentially avoidable) stresses are majorly significant contributors to a runaway process of internal breakdown/corrosion that determines how much longer it'll work. Lithium batteries like to be stored at 50-60% charge, while lead acid car batteries like to be stored at 100% charge.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      How would you know which ones are and which ones aren't? This sounds like myth to me, though I can see how lead recycling might lead to lead of inferior quality if it isn't done properly I can't see this happening in Japan (though I've seen plenty of examples of battery recycling in less developed countries where I'm pretty sure the lead is not going to be very pure).
namdnay 3y ago
> RAV4 small SUVs Only in the US would anyone refer to the 2013 RAV4 as "small" :)
- justrealist 3y ago
  It's small for an SUV, let's not be pedantic.
  - nicoburns 3y ago
    SUVs are also smaller in other countries.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      The RAV4 a 5 seat car, if you define 2 row cars as full SUVs the definition loses all meaning. Full SUVs carry 7+ people.
      - nicoburns 3y ago
        Hmm... ok. I always think of SUVs as cars that are bulkier and have higher road clearance than a "normal" car (and perhaps 4WD or similar), without necessarily carrying more people like a "minivan" or "people carrier" would. Wikipedia says "there is no commonly agreed-upon definition of an SUV and usage of the term varies between countries.", so that might explain the discrepancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV
        hunter2_ 3y ago
        I rented a Toyota Raize in Japan, and the website (Budget) repeatedly described it as an SUV. It's 100mm narrower and 250mm shorter than my VW Golf.
        salamanderss 3y ago
        SUV OGs were body on frame. Enclosed trucks basically. Soccer moms and dads driving to the grocery and back with their three spawn though have more market share. So they sell you a unibody oversized car that would be absolutely destroyed if used as the OG truck frame vehicles, and the soccer dad can pretend his oversized car is some off-road hauling machine.
tony_cannistra 3y ago
I feared this was related to the RAV4 Prime (the PHEV version), but thankfully this appears to be a (highly consequential, but–) fairly run-of-the-mill ICE vehicle recall. Has to hurt, though.
thaddeusmt 3y ago
Figured this was related to hybrid RAV4s or EVs but no - the regular old "car battery" is the issue!
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  My neighbor breathlessly informed me a couple months ago that I should be worried about my EVs burning down our house. She seemed a little surprised when I mentioned that my Ford (not an EV) is actually the bigger risk for spontaneously burning down my house. Politics were involved, yes.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    When discussing fire risk, I remind people that ICE cars have "combustion" in the name for a reason - its propulsion literally comes from controlled explosions using flammable liquids.
    - singleshot_ 3y ago
      If your gasoline is exploding in the cylinders instead of combusting, you should use higher octane or adjust your engine. When gasoline explodes in an internal combustion engine, it’s called “detonation” and if it persists, it can increase the number of parts in your car rather suddenly.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        It always disappointed me that humans haven't really managed to make the rotating detonation engine work. Its theoretical efficiency and power density is really high.
        I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        Now I'm imagining something like a fidget spinner combined with a Nuclear Pulse Engine[1] and it's awesome because I'm imagining that it can provide both propulsion and rotation...but I bet we need some great advances in material science before anything like it could exist. 1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion
speed_spread 3y ago
TLDR; this is not about the lithium battery in hybrid or electric versions of the RAV4. It's about the conventional (lead) 12V battery possibly moving around in the engine compartment. The batteries themselves are ok! So it won't be that costly or hard for Toyota to fix - it's a pretty regular safety recall. Just because it says "battery" and "fire" in the title people assume the worst. It's just clickbait.
1970-01-01 3y ago
>Toyota said in a statement that some replacement 12-volt batteries used in the SUVs have smaller top dimensions than others. If the hold-down clamp is not tightened properly, the battery could move, allowing the positive terminal to contact the clamp and short circuit, the company said. Toyota said it is still preparing a fix. When the remedy is ready, dealers will replace the hold-down clamp, battery tray and positive terminal cover with improved ones. This seems fishy. The cost to properly torque and mark a bolt in a recall is orders of magnitude less than making and installing all new parts.
- pkulak 3y ago
  Maybe the fix isn't fixing the human error, but making it impossible.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This is exactly it, the fault is that it's too easy to do something wrong, so they're replacing it so that (likely) it won't even latch at all unless it's done right.
  - tkahnoski 3y ago
    Particularly since battery replacement is one of the easier DIY auto repairs many people take on.
qrush 3y ago
I'm real glad this isn't with the RAV4 Prime. Here's my 1 year review from last month if you're thinking of getting one: 1. I signed a contract for my 2022 Blueprint SE Weather Edition just before the Inflation Reduction Act was signed, so I was covered for the tax credit and successfully filed for it. (NO way I'd buy it today without that credit though!) 2. I've absolutely loved this car, upgrading from a 2017 Jeep Renegade as my family SUV. My Jeep also had a massive amount of problems (replaced axle, AC system, tires, more for the ~5 years I had it) and having a year of maintenance-free headaches has been a huge relief. 3. Last year a lot of the posts on r/rav4prime were about getting protective coverings, etc. I got a few quotes but ended up just buying $100 worth of car wash stuff and keeping it clean as I can myself. Scratches are just a reality. 4. I don't have a Level 2 charger at home and I wouldn't bother at this point to install one. Most of my in-town/city drives are EV only, and highway trips I still get ~40MPG+. I just charge overnight if I need to, or luckily there's a few free chargers close by. 5. My main complaint is the anti-slip detection seems to go off a lot. Maybe it's the roads here close to Boston, or it's just real paranoid about slipping. Some stuff I've bought that has helped: 1. Sun Visor Organizers (x2). I absolutely hate the giant "WARNING" about airbags in your face. Use that space for something productive instead. 2. Yakima FrontLoader Upright Bike Mount (x2). These are on sale at REI right now and have been so nice to use, and look pretty great. They're real easy to take on/off too if you're doing road trips without your bikes! 3. FITCAMX 4K Dash Cam. Way cheaper than the OEM model and looks like it belongs. Install was real easy. Given how crazy Boston driving is, I have gotten footage of some real dumb drivers here - and this is mostly CYA in case someone hits me. Anyway that's it, here's an obligatory photo with the car loaded. https://i.imgur.com/1Stc3Ci.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1Stc3Ci.jpg
- dekhn 3y ago
  I also have a recent RAV4 Prime. I tend to drive less than 40 miles at a time so I'm almost entirely on battery. I noticed that you can configure the charger to use either 8A (meaning you have to charge for a long time to refill) or 14A (which speeds things up a bit, but you need a dedicated circuit, there isn't a lot of headroom on top of 14A before your breaker trips). I don't really see a need for level 2 charging. Although I keep the car in "Eco" mode it still has more acceleration than most cars, and in "Super" mode, it's insane (there is only one area where I need to use this for about 30 seconds).
pipeline_peak 3y ago
I'm wondering if they actually test the hard turn or they have other methods to reproduce the issue.
Liam2010 3y ago
[dead]
Der_Einzige 3y ago
The Rav4, even in Prime plus trim is a penalty box. Better off buying a Lexus NX/UX instead.
kemotep 3y ago
2 years ago I got a letter to take my 2018 RAV4 to the dealer to see if we had a battery mounting issue. Ours did not but still got a free replacement battery and “was confirmed to be secured properly” by the dealership. I guess enough vehicles had the issue they are issuing a full recall for those effected? Seems like old news to me or should I be expecting a letter soon?

91 points by thm 3y ago

Surprising. I bought a 2015 RAV4 used in 2017. It still had the factory battery, I didn't have to replace that until last year when it finally bit the dust. I think that's the longest I've ever had a factory battery last on a car.

organsnyder 3y ago
Looks like the issue is with replacement batteries that aren't quite the same dimensions as the OEM ones.
- rwaksmunski 3y ago
  Some OEM batteries are made in Japan with virgin, not recycled, lead. My Lexus (Panasonic) battery lasted 11 years.
  - tony_cannistra 3y ago
    seems like you're suggesting that recycling lead has some kind of impact on battery longevity? Can you provide more detail there?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      If you just re-melt, scoop of the crap and recast the lead you may end up with less pure lead than if you were to 'properly' (for instance by reducing it to get rid of any lead oxide) recycle it.
  - hunter2_ 3y ago
    Expectations of battery life, and typical experiences, assume a certain amount of stress such as extreme temperatures and occasional deep cycling. Someone who keeps their car garaged, never plays the radio for a while after shutting the engine off, and never accidentally drains the battery is going to have an outlier like you're describing. I'm no expert but my understanding is that these types of (potentially avoidable) stresses are majorly significant contributors to a runaway process of internal breakdown/corrosion that determines how much longer it'll work. Lithium batteries like to be stored at 50-60% charge, while lead acid car batteries like to be stored at 100% charge.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    How would you know which ones are and which ones aren't? This sounds like myth to me, though I can see how lead recycling might lead to lead of inferior quality if it isn't done properly I can't see this happening in Japan (though I've seen plenty of examples of battery recycling in less developed countries where I'm pretty sure the lead is not going to be very pure).

namdnay 3y ago

> RAV4 small SUVs Only in the US would anyone refer to the 2013 RAV4 as "small" :)

justrealist 3y ago
It's small for an SUV, let's not be pedantic.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  SUVs are also smaller in other countries.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    The RAV4 a 5 seat car, if you define 2 row cars as full SUVs the definition loses all meaning. Full SUVs carry 7+ people.
    - nicoburns 3y ago
      Hmm... ok. I always think of SUVs as cars that are bulkier and have higher road clearance than a "normal" car (and perhaps 4WD or similar), without necessarily carrying more people like a "minivan" or "people carrier" would. Wikipedia says "there is no commonly agreed-upon definition of an SUV and usage of the term varies between countries.", so that might explain the discrepancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV
      - hunter2_ 3y ago
        I rented a Toyota Raize in Japan, and the website (Budget) repeatedly described it as an SUV. It's 100mm narrower and 250mm shorter than my VW Golf.
      - salamanderss 3y ago
        SUV OGs were body on frame. Enclosed trucks basically. Soccer moms and dads driving to the grocery and back with their three spawn though have more market share. So they sell you a unibody oversized car that would be absolutely destroyed if used as the OG truck frame vehicles, and the soccer dad can pretend his oversized car is some off-road hauling machine.

tony_cannistra 3y ago

I feared this was related to the RAV4 Prime (the PHEV version), but thankfully this appears to be a (highly consequential, but–) fairly run-of-the-mill ICE vehicle recall. Has to hurt, though.

thaddeusmt 3y ago

Figured this was related to hybrid RAV4s or EVs but no - the regular old "car battery" is the issue!

rootusrootus 3y ago
My neighbor breathlessly informed me a couple months ago that I should be worried about my EVs burning down our house. She seemed a little surprised when I mentioned that my Ford (not an EV) is actually the bigger risk for spontaneously burning down my house. Politics were involved, yes.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  When discussing fire risk, I remind people that ICE cars have "combustion" in the name for a reason - its propulsion literally comes from controlled explosions using flammable liquids.
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    If your gasoline is exploding in the cylinders instead of combusting, you should use higher octane or adjust your engine. When gasoline explodes in an internal combustion engine, it’s called “detonation” and if it persists, it can increase the number of parts in your car rather suddenly.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      It always disappointed me that humans haven't really managed to make the rotating detonation engine work. Its theoretical efficiency and power density is really high.
      - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        Now I'm imagining something like a fidget spinner combined with a Nuclear Pulse Engine[1] and it's awesome because I'm imagining that it can provide both propulsion and rotation...but I bet we need some great advances in material science before anything like it could exist. 1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion

speed_spread 3y ago

TLDR; this is not about the lithium battery in hybrid or electric versions of the RAV4. It's about the conventional (lead) 12V battery possibly moving around in the engine compartment. The batteries themselves are ok! So it won't be that costly or hard for Toyota to fix - it's a pretty regular safety recall. Just because it says "battery" and "fire" in the title people assume the worst. It's just clickbait.

1970-01-01 3y ago

>Toyota said in a statement that some replacement 12-volt batteries used in the SUVs have smaller top dimensions than others. If the hold-down clamp is not tightened properly, the battery could move, allowing the positive terminal to contact the clamp and short circuit, the company said. Toyota said it is still preparing a fix. When the remedy is ready, dealers will replace the hold-down clamp, battery tray and positive terminal cover with improved ones. This seems fishy. The cost to properly torque and mark a bolt in a recall is orders of magnitude less than making and installing all new parts.

pkulak 3y ago
Maybe the fix isn't fixing the human error, but making it impossible.
- bombcar 3y ago
  This is exactly it, the fault is that it's too easy to do something wrong, so they're replacing it so that (likely) it won't even latch at all unless it's done right.
- tkahnoski 3y ago
  Particularly since battery replacement is one of the easier DIY auto repairs many people take on.

qrush 3y ago

I'm real glad this isn't with the RAV4 Prime. Here's my 1 year review from last month if you're thinking of getting one: 1. I signed a contract for my 2022 Blueprint SE Weather Edition just before the Inflation Reduction Act was signed, so I was covered for the tax credit and successfully filed for it. (NO way I'd buy it today without that credit though!) 2. I've absolutely loved this car, upgrading from a 2017 Jeep Renegade as my family SUV. My Jeep also had a massive amount of problems (replaced axle, AC system, tires, more for the ~5 years I had it) and having a year of maintenance-free headaches has been a huge relief. 3. Last year a lot of the posts on r/rav4prime were about getting protective coverings, etc. I got a few quotes but ended up just buying $100 worth of car wash stuff and keeping it clean as I can myself. Scratches are just a reality. 4. I don't have a Level 2 charger at home and I wouldn't bother at this point to install one. Most of my in-town/city drives are EV only, and highway trips I still get ~40MPG+. I just charge overnight if I need to, or luckily there's a few free chargers close by. 5. My main complaint is the anti-slip detection seems to go off a lot. Maybe it's the roads here close to Boston, or it's just real paranoid about slipping. Some stuff I've bought that has helped: 1. Sun Visor Organizers (x2). I absolutely hate the giant "WARNING" about airbags in your face. Use that space for something productive instead. 2. Yakima FrontLoader Upright Bike Mount (x2). These are on sale at REI right now and have been so nice to use, and look pretty great. They're real easy to take on/off too if you're doing road trips without your bikes! 3. FITCAMX 4K Dash Cam. Way cheaper than the OEM model and looks like it belongs. Install was real easy. Given how crazy Boston driving is, I have gotten footage of some real dumb drivers here - and this is mostly CYA in case someone hits me. Anyway that's it, here's an obligatory photo with the car loaded. https://i.imgur.com/1Stc3Ci.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1Stc3Ci.jpg

dekhn 3y ago
I also have a recent RAV4 Prime. I tend to drive less than 40 miles at a time so I'm almost entirely on battery. I noticed that you can configure the charger to use either 8A (meaning you have to charge for a long time to refill) or 14A (which speeds things up a bit, but you need a dedicated circuit, there isn't a lot of headroom on top of 14A before your breaker trips). I don't really see a need for level 2 charging. Although I keep the car in "Eco" mode it still has more acceleration than most cars, and in "Super" mode, it's insane (there is only one area where I need to use this for about 30 seconds).

pipeline_peak 3y ago

I'm wondering if they actually test the hard turn or they have other methods to reproduce the issue.

Liam2010 3y ago

[dead]

Der_Einzige 3y ago

The Rav4, even in Prime plus trim is a penalty box. Better off buying a Lexus NX/UX instead.

kemotep 3y ago

2 years ago I got a letter to take my 2018 RAV4 to the dealer to see if we had a battery mounting issue. Ours did not but still got a free replacement battery and “was confirmed to be secured properly” by the dealership. I guess enough vehicles had the issue they are issuing a full recall for those effected? Seems like old news to me or should I be expecting a letter soon?