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Killing Windows 10 in 2025 could turn PCs into eWaste
- vasdae 3y agoNo it couldn't. Windows will continue to work even after no more updates are available.
- HideousKojima 3y agoAnd become part of a massive botnet the moment a zero day is discovered after support ends.
- vasdae 3y agoHasn't still happened with Windows 7.
- Ographer 3y agoThat doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a zero day available for Windows 7 or that hackers don't have access to those systems in some way. The good zero days are found by or sold to governments or elite independent hacking groups working on an international level. They tend to be more interested in targeted attacks against specific individuals or organizations. Once a zero day is leaked to the public, typically it is quickly adopted by botnet operators to take advantage of un-patched systems.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoThat's mostly a lot of fantasy "what ifs" and a nothing-burger for everyone else in the real world. If you know yourself to be a potential target for governments zero days, then you probably won't be running Windows 7 anymore. If you're an important asset and still running Windows 7 on-line when free upgrades to Windows 10 were available in the last 8 years, you should fire your sys-admin as even bottom of the barrel Wallmart laptops sell with Windows 11 for over a year now.
- Ographer 3y agoThat's exactly how people end up the victim of a ransomware attack. It's not worth it unless you really don't care about your computer and attached storage. I'm not a government agent but I'm still not risking it on my personal computer. Once a zero day is leaked online, it becomes the most powerful weapon to getting into a given system. Even when Microsoft races to put out a patch, millions of systems can be compromised first. It has happened before so it's not so hypothetical.
- HideousKojima 3y agoBecause Microsoft has decided to continue providing security patches for severe vulnerabilities despite it being out of support: https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/14/microsoft-zero-day-windows/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/14/microsoft-zero-day-windows... But you have no guarantee from Microsoft that they'll continue to do so like you do with something still in lifecycle.
- opan 3y agoWould you really know if it had happened? I imagine a high profile incident would need to result from it for most people to realize.
- shinratdr 3y agoWindows 7 and Windows 10 had very similar minimum hardware requirements, and few if any artificial restrictions on what hardware is supported. Same with Windows XP when moving to Windows 7. Technology was also much faster moving and new significant features that benefited from hardware improvements were being introduced all the time. Now the focus is on efficiency and power consumption. As a result, any computer made in the last 10-12 years will be perfectly suitable for what 90% of people use their computers for. The 8th generation Intel cutoff for Windows 11 is ridiculous and is causing this problem. Yes, Windows 11 works fine on older hardware if you force it to install but most people will not go this route. They’ll continue to use their insecure PC on the internet because it runs very well and does everything they need it to do, and we’ll have a nightmare on our hands. The landscape is totally different from XP to 7 and from 7 to 10. Microsoft knows that and these pointless hardware reqs are a transparent attempt to force people to upgrade for no reason. The desktop and laptop market has fully stalled, and there is no compelling reason to upgrade your computer if you aren’t using it for gaming or processor/GPU intensive work. This is their attempt to boost sales without innovating, and it’s going to be devastating.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>The 8th generation Intel cutoff for Windows 11 is ridiculous and is causing this problem. Not true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34678812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34678812
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoMeh, IoT devices and ancient Android phones are a much lower hanging fruits for botnets and hackers than old Windows PCs. Targeting Windows PCs is sooo 2006.
- api 3y ago“The S in IoT stands for security.”
- Dwedit 3y agoThere's nothing technical stopping Microsoft from pushing out an "update" that intentionally sabotages the OS.
- timbit42 3y agoAdobe did it with Flash Player.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hk1337 3y agoAlso, people will just move on to Windows 11 like we did from 95 to 98 to Windows XP
- nyanpasu64 3y agoTo this day there are more Windows XP users than Vista, and more Windows 7 users than 8/8.1.
- CivBase 3y agoThe point is they can't. Win11 won't install on older PCs due to arbitrary TPM and CPU generation requirements. Sure, there are ways people can technically bypass those restrictions but the normal PC user won't be able to do that. They'll just keep using Win10 without security updates.
- throwaway5959 3y agoI’m sure Intel is pleased.
- widowlark 3y agoUnlike an apple silicon mac, you are more than capable of installing a linux OS on your PC hardware, so this article is not exactly correct
- acdha 3y agoApple Silicon Macs can run Linux, too: Apple designed the boot code signing process to support custom operating systems without access to private data on macOS. https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago> Asahi Linux is work in progress. Many hardware components are not yet supported! https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support
- acdha 3y agoKind of like how if you run Linux on a PC you have to worry about driver support? Yes. Not being perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t usable.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoI don't worry about driver support. Everything on my system works out of the box and NVIDIA drivers can be installed with one-click from GNOME Software.
- jmisavage 3y agoYou can install Asahi Linux on any of the M1/2 Macs. And even if Microsoft and Apple stop giving updates you can still run the machine with the last OS. I’ve been running a 2012 Mac mini just fine and it hasn’t seen updates in a while.
- opan 3y agoThe article addresses this. >But let’s be honest, while some users will certainly see Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, or Debian as a viable alternative (or upgrade) to Windows, most personal and business users aren’t going to go that route. Yeah, you and me could save one of these machines from being e-waste, but most people won't bother. The headline is a bit questionable, but that's more common than not. I had a similar initial reaction to you (minus the Apple Silicon bit, I have high hopes for Asahi), but upon seeing the website url I was pretty sure they'd mention GNU/Linux somewhere in there.
- windowsrookie 3y agoJust a reminder that Windows 10 LTSC IOT has support until 2032. It runs just fine on any PC currently running regular Windows 10. In fact, if you have a low-end PC I recommend running LTSC over regular Windows because it performs significantly better. No, there really isn't a way for regular users to get an official license. So if that is a problem for you, then it's not an option. For the rest of us it's a great option and will allow you to use your current computers and receive windows security updates for another 10years.
- AdamH12113 3y agoHow do you get a license, then?
- windowsrookie 3y agoIt may be frowned upon to link to it here. But If I were looking, I would do a google search for "Microsoft Activation Scripts" and I would probably find an excellent github webpage. ;) I would also probably need a separate ISO for Windows 10 LTSC IOT. I think I would check archive.org for something like that. ;)
- MikusR 3y agoThe weirdest thing about that IOT version is that it's based on 21H2 version of Windows 10 and not the latest 22H2
- grishka 3y agoAs other commenters said, Windows 10 will continue to work even without updates, but also, if you insist that your OS receives updates, you can bypass the TPM requirement for Windows 11 because it isn't a technical one. It doesn't rely on the TPM for any critical functionality. This "requirement" is entirely fake.
- the__alchemist 3y agoIIRC upgrade-in-place won't work without TPM hardware, but fresh installs work. (I was able to do that on an older Surface that nominally wasn't Win-11 compatible).
- imglorp 3y agoUnless their data is all cloud or roaming profile or whatever, fresh install isn't an option for most users, ie non-enterprise. Backup, upgrade, restore is a pain for every upgrade or patch. Another reason to get off Windows and be done with it.
- prmoustache 3y agoI guess local computer repair shops will offer that service.
- bluescrn 3y agoIt’s not just about ‘can you run Win11’, it’s whether it’s actually a decent replacement for 10. Is the Win11 user experience any better yet? Can I clear all junk from the taskbar and start menu without Explorer patching tools? I skipped Win8 entirely, going from 7 to 10, and was hoping 11 would be another ‘skippable bad release’ followed by a more appealing Win12
- DarkmSparks 3y ago->Is the Win11 user experience any better yet? No. The wife accidentally clicked on some dark pattern that updated her laptop to 11. It lasted just over a day before she got me to roll it back to 10. Horrific.
- lousken 3y agoLinux or windows 10 LTSC, which has has support till 2029
- kingcobraninja 3y agoThat headline wasn't sensational enough
- jdiff 3y agoHeadline is perfectly fine. The average person is not installing Linux. The average person is not installing LTSC. The average person will, however, continue using 10 beyond its EOL and join a merry band of botnets.
- jenscow 3y agoSo no updates after 2025? Many would call that a feature.
- Tempest1981 3y agoEdge will continue to self-update. Any way to disable that?
- tkuraku 3y agoI have a two desktop computers that are plenty fast that my wife and I play games on. There is no reason to upgrade. Yet, Microsoft is trying to to them into ewaste.
- synergy20 3y agofor non-business users, why does OS still matter these days? I used to be a pure Linux desktop user, for two decades, recently I had to use windows and macos for a few months combined. In the end, 95% of the time was spent inside a browser, the OS seems non-exist to me for the most part, I now consider myself OS neutral though still prefer Linux when I can choose. Welcome to the cloud era.
- doubled112 3y agoI could run completely in the browser probably but I still consider it a worse experience. I game exclusively on Linux but it isn't for everybody. Roblox for the kids, and a bunch of hardware my wife uses don’t have Linux software available either. What is true for you and me is not always true for others.
- synergy20 3y agoagree, for non-business(who also are in fact migrating to office365 online than locally installed office suite) and gamers, windows makes sense, for the rest 90%(?) user base it seems to me all OSes will do just fine.
- pohuing 3y agoGaming in general. Comfort that things work like you're used to. Compatibility with various software. I've got a Linux and a Mac Partition as well, but in the end I'm just more used to Windows and it works best with all the software I use. Proton is still limited for gaming, the Linux DEs all have drawbacks over windows explorer and macos doesn't even have proton going for it.
- arbuge 3y agoI have a bunch of Windows desktops at home that share files using my Windows Onedrive (or LiveDrive or SkyDrive or whatever Microsoft calls it these days - each machine seems to have a different opinion). What's a good easy-to-use alternative for that in the Linux world? Ideally it would also allow me to share between my Windows and Linux machines to make transitioning easier.
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoLike my kitchen drawer full of old iPhones that won't take the latest bloated OS? Or my perfectly good MacBook Pro that's three years out of a supported Apple OS but can still run up to date Windows or Linux? All because Apple was too lazy to maintain a few hardware drivers.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoHey, we're only supposed to be hating on Microsoft here. Beloved Apple is not to be touched.
- pierat 3y agoTell me about it. The more it happens when I see an "unpopular Apple Criticism" here, almost makes me think that they have an equivalent of the 50 cent army. Its a little too questionable here. Then again, it's VC's who have the logs where those IP's down downvotes are coming from.
- freedomben 3y agoIndeed, there is no quicker way to amass downvotes than to criticize Apple on HN. Fair or not it will attract the ire of the masses. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why the tech industry and the hacker community especially can be so enamored of an anti-hacker company like Apple that it becomes part of their identity, leading to hyper defensiveness and the downvoting/killing we see. I don't feel like I understand it yet so I'd be fascinated to hear theories.
- ecshafer 3y agoWhen i did my undergrad (northeast state school), there were more linux users in cs / math than windows or mac. In startupy tech places they often use mac as well (instead of linux for some reason). And big tech usually uses mac (better reasons i think). Private schools and rich neighborhoods are like 95% mac usage, its wild. So I have always assumed it had to do with class growing up, working class kids like linux since they can run their own stuff and revive old computers.
- lxe 3y agoUnlike iPhones, PCs can still run Linux with ease.
- donatj 3y agoThe whole fake TPM requirement seems very un-Microsoft to me, to the point that I question if they were paid off by hardware manufacturers to sell new machines. Prior to Windows 11, they would at least try to run Windows on basically any device that wanted to. I have been using Windows since 3.1 and the only thing that ever held a computer back was the architecture move from 16 bit to 32 bit. My 286 couldn’t run Windows 95, but it was already painfully underpowered at the time. In contrast, I have a pretty powerful 8-core Ryzen desktop with 64gb of RAM, well beyond the capabilities of any cheap Windows 11 computer from a big box, and yet Windows 11 just blanket tells me it’s not supported… for reasons. Could I hack it to get it to run? Yes. There’s no legitimate reason I should have to though. I don’t know why they would do this other than being bribed.
- xenophonf 3y ago> The whole fake TPM requirement seems very un-Microsoft to me Then you don't know about Palladium, a/k/a the Next Generation Secure Computing Base, which Microsoft started developing in 1997. It's explicit goal was digital restrictions management. They co-founded the TCPA in 1999 to develop the TPM hardware spec.
- pxeboot 3y agoThey seem to be using the TPM for Office 365 licensing as well [1]. Presumably this will move to a requirement around the same time Windows 10 support ends. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/activation/tpm-malfunctioned https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/activa...
- chrisandchris 3y agoSo you'll be forced to get a TMP-device just to use M365, a piece of software you already use on another device for years?
- pxeboot 3y agoI imagine Windows 11 without a TPM will be treated like a rooted Android device. It may work, but many apps, Office 365 in this case, will enforce their own TPM requirements.
- vermaden 3y agoLOL? What kind of bullshit is this? Just install FreeBSD/Linux/Illumos there and everything works.
- hardware2win 3y agoI disagre, we need to move ppl to newer hardware, as many as we can. Ps: I have stocks of hw companies
- throwaheyy 3y agoPSA: many desktop machines without a TPM still have a header for one. You can plug in a TPM module compatible with your motherboard, which costs about $20 from Amazon.
- deafpolygon 3y agoShh... they won't tolerate a voice of reason! It's Microsoft smashing hour, so let everybody have their fun.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoThat's what I thought but mine only supports TPM 1.2 and not the required TPM 2.0.
- TiredOfLife 3y agoPSA: those desktop machines don't run a supported version of processor. The arbitrary requirement was the cpu cutoff, tpm was just the scapegoat.
- simonblack 3y agoI thought 'Planned Obsolescence' went out with Detroit. Seems I'm wrong again. Seriously, if lots of people find their perfectly useful Microsoft devices aren't usable, the next time they buy something they'll make sure it's not a Microsoft device. In the car business, they'd call that 'Buying a Lemon'. That reminds me, I must see if I can sell my Pinto.