7 ms·

How productive are the new arrivals though?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
constantly 3y ago
I saw an article recently that claimed Germany was going to surpass Japan as the third largest economy, aided partially by new arrivals. So I infer they’re pretty productive! Will try to find you a link.
- sally_glance 3y ago
  Surpassed because of weak Yen, not because of Germany's growth: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-24/germany-to-pass-japan-as-3rd-largest-economy-helped-by-weak-yen https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-24/germany-t...
dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
Well, 90% of the people in my office are immigrants. Pretty productive. Obviously however software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time. There's just not enough German software engineers to work the huge capital that it has. When looking at more common jobs, it's quite hard to find a German when you pass by any construction site. In fact, I can speak to a good amount of the workers in my native language.
- thefounder 3y ago
  >> Obviously however software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time. That's news to me. Even in London is not that immigrant heavy unless you consider the Europeans immigrants.
  - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
    I do. I immigrated from my country => I'm an immigrant. If I were to count only people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia as immigrants, probably closer to 35%.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Ah, the not-that-kind-of-foreigner, racist way of counting! Some people love to do that, don't they?
    - incahoots 3y ago
      Hopefully you're doing well. Leaving your home country takes a toll I imagine.
      - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
        Left more than a decade ago so Germany feels like home now. Adjusting took a couple years, German culture was difficult to understand. Doing very well now, thank you for the comment.
    - thefounder 3y ago
      >> I immigrated from my country => I'm an immigrant. That's not really the case within the EU at least it's not black and white. You have the same rights as the "native" population. What makes you an immigrat? People in the U.S don't say they immigrate when they move from one state to another...they just move and I think that's the case with the EU as well.
      - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
        > What makes you an immigrant? * I didn't speak the language when I moved here. I do now, but I still have a heavy accent that immediately tells everyone I wasn't born here. * People still casually discriminate against me. I apply with a (fake) German name to apartments. Obviously I use my real name when I meet them and sign the documents, but it has helped me get the foot in the door many times before. * I did go to school in Germany, and those are the the only Germans I'm friends with. I've made friends with other immigrants, but German society is much harder to break into. * I can't vote in elections (which is fair, to be clear). * While I understand German culture now, I don't understand it like a German does. It's kind of hard to quantify the impact of this but while I can understand what's expected of me and why people act in certain ways, it still feels like doing a dance rather than a mutual shared understanding. All that said.. I feel pretty at place here. Living somewhere for a long time tends to do that. But you still never get over the feeling that you're some guy living in a place, rather than being of that place. It's more of a 50/50.. sometimes you feel as if you've always been there, and sometimes as if you just came that day.
  - AdamN 3y ago
    Nobody on my team is German and I'm American. We are in Berlin.
  - f6v 3y ago
    It is in Berlin, my last software job didn’t have any German developers. That’s how it is in startups. Of course, it’s going to be the opposite in a small town.
  - anonyfox 3y ago
    All engineers in my company are immigrants, and the official work language is english. Located in Hamburg, serving nearly exclusively German customers.
- incahoots 3y ago
  >software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time For those unaware, this is commonplace for various industries in the US. The H1B Visa program is a grind-house for companies like FAANG, and I imagine the EU and other European nations have taken note to utilize the same policy.
  - jonp888 3y ago
    The EU system is much simpler than the chicanery of the US system of quotas and multiple visa categories. If there is an EU citizen applicant suitable for the job, they get it. If there isn't, anyone can.
    - incahoots 3y ago
      Than goodness for that. It's a lotto on the stateside for certain which is incredibly tone deaf, but not surprising considering how the rest of our labor force is exploited at nearly every turn.
luckystarr 3y ago
Its varied. I think there was no study that checks that for the whole of Germany, but in my town, most (>90%) of the Syrian refugees from a few years back are now settled down, have a job and and pay social security. A few have high paying jobs (construction, specialized metal-working, etc.), but many of them are in the medium to low income sector. Interestingly, they view food related jobs as high status jobs, whereas German people do not. So many of them are employed in restaurants, etc. Update: there are of course also other arrivals, but the Syrians make the bulk of them.
- sourcegrift 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Garvi 3y ago
  It's cheap labor for employers and bad news for German employees who felt the jobs weren't paid enough. The employees who wouldn't work for a "hungerlohn" are forced now as the emplyeers have absolutely no incentive to lower their profit margins, with all the Syrian refugees willing to work for less. I'm sure they're grateful and that they're doing better than in US occupied Syria (Isn't it great how much media coverage the Syrian invasion and civil displacement got?), but it's still an exploitative profit oriented system that's taking advantage of peoples situation. Edit: Knowing HN, I'll be the one called racist as opposed to the comment right next to me that's saying terrible things about Muslims.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    I downvoted you not because you said anything racist but because I strongly disagree with your argument about achieving high salaries through limiting the workforce availability. The problem with this approach is that, the compensation becomes high for no good reason and since less people are working the output declines. Everything becomes more expensive because the consumption stays the same or higher but the production don't follow. Maybe you make more money by not letting a Syrian immigrant to cook food and compete with you but you also pay more to have your apartment painted because they didn't let some other Syrian immigrant compete in the painting business. Immigrants that work create prosperity. If you are having trouble competing with a newcomers who barely speak the language, don't know anything of your culture and they grew up in a much poorer conditions in a country with much less opportunities, then it's on you. You should have taken advantage of living in this rich country that has given you all kind of opportunities, if you can't I don't see moral obligation to pay you well just because you are local. People who want to participate in the society, create value and be compensated for it should not be stopped from doing it just because it might hurt someone else's prospect. This is basically the same argument against technology where some people would argue that we should limit robots and automation so that the workers can keep their jobs. People are scared of change and don't want competition but if we artificially limit competition, the whole society will end up uncompetitive and catastrophe can happen. Protectionism is very dangerous, look what's happening to VW.
Eumenes 3y ago
Not very - https://www.iab-forum.de/en/what-do-we-know-about-the-employment-of-refugees-in-germany-answers-to-some-frequently-asked-questions/ https://www.iab-forum.de/en/what-do-we-know-about-the-employ... Less than 50% are employed 5 years after arrival, in a country with 5.7% unemployment. I imagine adults who don't speak the language, require financial assistance, etc, will be a net drain from a tax perspective on a society, esp. when you factor in the high CoL. Its hard enough for the average naturalized citizen to be a net positive from a tax perspective, let alone someone from an entirely different world. An inconvenient/unpopular, but obvious truth.
- mejutoco 3y ago
  That data is about refugees. You are conflating new arrivals with refugees, which is not accurate. Some people might think it is even in bad faith. What about all the other immigrants from EU or abroad whose higher education was not paid by Germany and they immigrate to Germany? Surely that is a positive. Germany is benefiting from paid-by-somebody-else qualified applicants.
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    Highly educated immigrants who speak the language are a net positive, for sure.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      > Highly educated immigrants who speak the language The latter isn't really a requirement, at least when working in tech. I barely speak any German at all in my job, and I'm a German dude working at a German company. All companies I worked for since 2010 had English as "company language", and immigrants were in the majority (mostly from other European countries, but also US and Canada).
      - Eumenes 3y ago
        Ya makes sense, with Berlin essentially being an international airport in terms of demographics. I suppose knowing English would suffice.
selfmodruntime 3y ago
Contrary to the parent comment and what you will read here: Not very. This won't change for a long time. Syrians from 2015 earn a lot less than the median and more than 70% rely on welfare that pays out more than they earn [1]. Up to 90% of Ukranians rely on welfare [2], costing the German Government half a billion dollars in in welfare checks alone. Marrocans are three times as likely to rely on welfare / to be jobless than Germans [3]. There are three times as many jobless people with a history of migration than Germans [4]. This is not a political agenda. These are just facts. [1]: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt-fuer-fluechtlinge-mehrheit-der-syrer-bekommt-hartz-iv-17436764.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt-fuer-flu... [2]: https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2023-10/ukraine-gefluechtete-arbeitsmarkt-buergergeld-sanktionen https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2023-10/ukraine-gefl... [3]: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article168661565/Tuerkischstaemmige-Migranten-in-einer-besonders-unguenstigen-Lage.html#:~:text=Im%20Schnitt%20sind%20Marokkaner%2C%20die,Unterschiede%20zwischen%20den%20neuen%20Heimatl%C3%A4ndern https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article168661565/Tuerkischsta.... [4]: https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/arbeitsmarkt.html#:~:text=2021%20lagen%20die%20Erwerbslosenquotender,2%20Prozent%20(rund%20693.000%20Erwerbslose) https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/arbeitsmarkt...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

I saw an article recently that claimed Germany was going to surpass Japan as the third largest economy, aided partially by new arrivals. So I infer they’re pretty productive! Will try to find you a link.

sally_glance 3y ago
Surpassed because of weak Yen, not because of Germany's growth: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-24/germany-to-pass-japan-as-3rd-largest-economy-helped-by-weak-yen https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-24/germany-t...

dj_mc_merlin 3y ago

Well, 90% of the people in my office are immigrants. Pretty productive. Obviously however software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time. There's just not enough German software engineers to work the huge capital that it has. When looking at more common jobs, it's quite hard to find a German when you pass by any construction site. In fact, I can speak to a good amount of the workers in my native language.

thefounder 3y ago
>> Obviously however software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time. That's news to me. Even in London is not that immigrant heavy unless you consider the Europeans immigrants.
- dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
  I do. I immigrated from my country => I'm an immigrant. If I were to count only people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia as immigrants, probably closer to 35%.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Ah, the not-that-kind-of-foreigner, racist way of counting! Some people love to do that, don't they?
  - incahoots 3y ago
    Hopefully you're doing well. Leaving your home country takes a toll I imagine.
    - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
      Left more than a decade ago so Germany feels like home now. Adjusting took a couple years, German culture was difficult to understand. Doing very well now, thank you for the comment.
  - thefounder 3y ago
    >> I immigrated from my country => I'm an immigrant. That's not really the case within the EU at least it's not black and white. You have the same rights as the "native" population. What makes you an immigrat? People in the U.S don't say they immigrate when they move from one state to another...they just move and I think that's the case with the EU as well.
    - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
      > What makes you an immigrant? * I didn't speak the language when I moved here. I do now, but I still have a heavy accent that immediately tells everyone I wasn't born here. * People still casually discriminate against me. I apply with a (fake) German name to apartments. Obviously I use my real name when I meet them and sign the documents, but it has helped me get the foot in the door many times before. * I did go to school in Germany, and those are the the only Germans I'm friends with. I've made friends with other immigrants, but German society is much harder to break into. * I can't vote in elections (which is fair, to be clear). * While I understand German culture now, I don't understand it like a German does. It's kind of hard to quantify the impact of this but while I can understand what's expected of me and why people act in certain ways, it still feels like doing a dance rather than a mutual shared understanding. All that said.. I feel pretty at place here. Living somewhere for a long time tends to do that. But you still never get over the feeling that you're some guy living in a place, rather than being of that place. It's more of a 50/50.. sometimes you feel as if you've always been there, and sometimes as if you just came that day.
- AdamN 3y ago
  Nobody on my team is German and I'm American. We are in Berlin.
- f6v 3y ago
  It is in Berlin, my last software job didn’t have any German developers. That’s how it is in startups. Of course, it’s going to be the opposite in a small town.
- anonyfox 3y ago
  All engineers in my company are immigrants, and the official work language is english. Located in Hamburg, serving nearly exclusively German customers.
incahoots 3y ago
>software engineering has been a very immigrant-heavy industry in Europe for a long time For those unaware, this is commonplace for various industries in the US. The H1B Visa program is a grind-house for companies like FAANG, and I imagine the EU and other European nations have taken note to utilize the same policy.
- jonp888 3y ago
  The EU system is much simpler than the chicanery of the US system of quotas and multiple visa categories. If there is an EU citizen applicant suitable for the job, they get it. If there isn't, anyone can.
  - incahoots 3y ago
    Than goodness for that. It's a lotto on the stateside for certain which is incredibly tone deaf, but not surprising considering how the rest of our labor force is exploited at nearly every turn.

luckystarr 3y ago

Its varied. I think there was no study that checks that for the whole of Germany, but in my town, most (>90%) of the Syrian refugees from a few years back are now settled down, have a job and and pay social security. A few have high paying jobs (construction, specialized metal-working, etc.), but many of them are in the medium to low income sector. Interestingly, they view food related jobs as high status jobs, whereas German people do not. So many of them are employed in restaurants, etc. Update: there are of course also other arrivals, but the Syrians make the bulk of them.

sourcegrift 3y ago
[flagged]
Garvi 3y ago
It's cheap labor for employers and bad news for German employees who felt the jobs weren't paid enough. The employees who wouldn't work for a "hungerlohn" are forced now as the emplyeers have absolutely no incentive to lower their profit margins, with all the Syrian refugees willing to work for less. I'm sure they're grateful and that they're doing better than in US occupied Syria (Isn't it great how much media coverage the Syrian invasion and civil displacement got?), but it's still an exploitative profit oriented system that's taking advantage of peoples situation. Edit: Knowing HN, I'll be the one called racist as opposed to the comment right next to me that's saying terrible things about Muslims.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  I downvoted you not because you said anything racist but because I strongly disagree with your argument about achieving high salaries through limiting the workforce availability. The problem with this approach is that, the compensation becomes high for no good reason and since less people are working the output declines. Everything becomes more expensive because the consumption stays the same or higher but the production don't follow. Maybe you make more money by not letting a Syrian immigrant to cook food and compete with you but you also pay more to have your apartment painted because they didn't let some other Syrian immigrant compete in the painting business. Immigrants that work create prosperity. If you are having trouble competing with a newcomers who barely speak the language, don't know anything of your culture and they grew up in a much poorer conditions in a country with much less opportunities, then it's on you. You should have taken advantage of living in this rich country that has given you all kind of opportunities, if you can't I don't see moral obligation to pay you well just because you are local. People who want to participate in the society, create value and be compensated for it should not be stopped from doing it just because it might hurt someone else's prospect. This is basically the same argument against technology where some people would argue that we should limit robots and automation so that the workers can keep their jobs. People are scared of change and don't want competition but if we artificially limit competition, the whole society will end up uncompetitive and catastrophe can happen. Protectionism is very dangerous, look what's happening to VW.

Eumenes 3y ago

Not very - https://www.iab-forum.de/en/what-do-we-know-about-the-employment-of-refugees-in-germany-answers-to-some-frequently-asked-questions/ https://www.iab-forum.de/en/what-do-we-know-about-the-employ... Less than 50% are employed 5 years after arrival, in a country with 5.7% unemployment. I imagine adults who don't speak the language, require financial assistance, etc, will be a net drain from a tax perspective on a society, esp. when you factor in the high CoL. Its hard enough for the average naturalized citizen to be a net positive from a tax perspective, let alone someone from an entirely different world. An inconvenient/unpopular, but obvious truth.

mejutoco 3y ago
That data is about refugees. You are conflating new arrivals with refugees, which is not accurate. Some people might think it is even in bad faith. What about all the other immigrants from EU or abroad whose higher education was not paid by Germany and they immigrate to Germany? Surely that is a positive. Germany is benefiting from paid-by-somebody-else qualified applicants.
- Eumenes 3y ago
  Highly educated immigrants who speak the language are a net positive, for sure.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    > Highly educated immigrants who speak the language The latter isn't really a requirement, at least when working in tech. I barely speak any German at all in my job, and I'm a German dude working at a German company. All companies I worked for since 2010 had English as "company language", and immigrants were in the majority (mostly from other European countries, but also US and Canada).
    - Eumenes 3y ago
      Ya makes sense, with Berlin essentially being an international airport in terms of demographics. I suppose knowing English would suffice.

selfmodruntime 3y ago

Contrary to the parent comment and what you will read here: Not very. This won't change for a long time. Syrians from 2015 earn a lot less than the median and more than 70% rely on welfare that pays out more than they earn [1]. Up to 90% of Ukranians rely on welfare [2], costing the German Government half a billion dollars in in welfare checks alone. Marrocans are three times as likely to rely on welfare / to be jobless than Germans [3]. There are three times as many jobless people with a history of migration than Germans [4]. This is not a political agenda. These are just facts. [1]: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt-fuer-fluechtlinge-mehrheit-der-syrer-bekommt-hartz-iv-17436764.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt-fuer-flu... [2]: https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2023-10/ukraine-gefluechtete-arbeitsmarkt-buergergeld-sanktionen https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2023-10/ukraine-gefl... [3]: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article168661565/Tuerkischstaemmige-Migranten-in-einer-besonders-unguenstigen-Lage.html#:~:text=Im%20Schnitt%20sind%20Marokkaner%2C%20die,Unterschiede%20zwischen%20den%20neuen%20Heimatl%C3%A4ndern https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article168661565/Tuerkischsta.... [4]: https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/arbeitsmarkt.html#:~:text=2021%20lagen%20die%20Erwerbslosenquotender,2%20Prozent%20(rund%20693.000%20Erwerbslose) https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/arbeitsmarkt...