24 ms·
EU Chat Control Bill Postponed
- sylware 3y agoInstead of trying to outlaw encryption, they should stick to Big Tech regulation as the road is still long there. For instance, significant web sites must have a functionning noscript/basic (x)html portal where reasonable (and you can browse maps more than ok with noscript/basic (x)html browsers). Just think semantic 2D simple HTML documents (tables are not harmful), and the table "rules" are semantic information in a 2D documents. And when I say "semantic", it is not that abomination of "semantic" web from a decade ago.
- Nextgrid 3y agoJust enforcing the existing GDPR would be a very good start. Right now enforcement is severely lacking and actually asserting your privacy rights when fobbed off by big tech is near-impossible as the vast majority of complaints to the regulator remain in limbo for years.
- sylware 3y agoI tend to believe the "GDPR" is targetted by Big Tech lobbyists, to trap as many administrative online services on software/protocol they control. (open source software control is achieved via absurd and grotesque size and complexity, and often the control of the upstream source repository). Small Tech with as many alternatives as possible is the only way out of this. Don't be fooled.
- red_admiral 3y agoRespecting the do-not-track header would also be a start.
- grafoso 3y ago[dead]
- grafoso 3y ago[dead]
- Macha 3y agoIt's good that it seems to be hitting challenges as it felt like a lost cause. There was talk of "it will never pass in the EU parliament", but it felt the same as when everyone declared victory on the UK's recent anti-E2EE regulation and then it turned out nothing had changed between the draft and the final bill.
- graemep 3y agoThe UK has pushed back enforecement. I suspect this is to give the EU and other countries with legislation coming to pass their legislation, then coordinate the timing of enforcement.
- walterbell 3y agoEnforcement may depend on client device hardware for AI inference, which is already available on Apple Arm devices, but only shipping on AMD Ryzen in 2023 and Intel Meteor Lake in 2024.
- walterbell 3y agoSome of the proposed exclusions seem arbitrary. > Netherlands and Germany want to exempt audio telephony, while Sweden wants to exempt communications over mobile networks.
- p0w3n3d 3y agoPostponed != win Postponed = () => await nextCrisis() .then(crisis => introduceUncomfortableLegislationBecauseOf(crisis))
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoYep, we have to "win" (or postpone in this case) every goddamn time, and they have to "win" only once for the thing to get signed and stamped.
- FredPret 3y agoThree ways we win forever: - out-innovate the authoritarians somehow - go on the political offensive to have non-tech people realize why they should care about things like this - establish an entire new model for society somewhere, like how personal freedom maximalists left the then-monarchical/theocratic Europe for the new world long ago
- vaylian 3y agoThere is a deadline which is the end of the term of the current european commission (next year after the elections).If the new commission doesn't want to take this law any further, it will be dropped.
- walterbell 3y agoHow are new commission members (s)elected?
- vaylian 3y agosee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Appointment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Appointmen... Each country sends candidates which then have to be approved by the european parliament.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
- tjpnz 3y agoI would love to see some bus posters put up around Brussels naming the idiots most responsible for this. I'm tired of public servants (elected or otherwise) pushing bullshit and then getting to disown it later on.
- logicchains 3y ago>public servants This term should be reserved for people who actually serve the public, not spy agencies and lobbyists.
- ben_w 3y agoI now have a mental image of all the world's spy agencies doxxing and demonising each other's agents in the eyes of the electorate of the governments that those agents work under.
- literalAardvark 3y agoSo you're getting closer to the truth then. Great!
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>public servants I doubt the likes of Ursula, who come form extremely privilege backgrounds and have been groomed since childhood for high ranking leadership positions, see themselves as being any kind of "servants". The term come from the days when public servants were elected from the general public, but those days are long gone and now we're bickering which members of the wealthy elite do we elect to screw us over for 4+ years without any accountability or repercussions.
- maxwell 3y agoAre you referring to a particular era when public officials (in Europe?) were elected from the general public or just thinking of halcyon days? In the U.S., the main issue is that the House has had 435 members since 1929. It's become so obscene that representation was better, on paper, for colonial Americans in the British Parliament than today.
- inglor_cz 3y agoSo, they will wait until the attention wears off, then try to push it through again. Let me remind you of a quote by former EC President Juncker: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." That is how the Commission operates. No wonder that many, including me, have serious trust issues towards them.
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoI think we are beyond trust issues at this point. The whole EU commission system is a rort. It removes the power from the EU parliament and puts it into the hands of un-elected officials who are appointed in back-room deals between the ministers of the member countries. It could not be further from democracy.
- Maken 3y agoI wish we could get rid of the European Commission. They are essentially a proxy of lobbying agencies, working behind closed doors and stopping the European Parliament from drafting and amending European laws. Thank god the Parliament can still stop bullshit from passing, but the fact that they can essentially just vote yes/no is infuriating.
- RandomLensman 3y agoNo, the Commission is a proxy for national governments.
- Wytwwww 3y agoWouldn't that be the council? Commissioners are only responsible for specific areas so they can't really represent the overall the interests of their state directly.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoFoe reference the individuals and organizations pushing for the mass surveillance of the EU citizens under the guise of protecting the children are: Ylva Johansson, the EU Home Office Commissioner. She's openly anti-encryption and has said she doesn't care about privacy or security concerns. She won't even meet with any group that disagrees with her. Thierry Breton, the European Commissioner for Internal Market. He is working with Ylva Johansson and Thorn to pass Chat Control. Monique Pariat, European Commission’s Director-General for Migration and Home Affairs Catherine de Bolle, Europol Executive Director Julie Cordua, CEO of Thorn. Cathal Delaney, Former Europol employee who now works for Thorn. Ruiz Perez, Senior former Europol official Fernando, who now is on Thorn's board. Alan M. Parker, British billionaire, and founder of the Oak Foundation that bankrolls the fake charities lobbying for Chat Control. Chris Cohn, British billionaire hedge fund manager and Google activist investor. He provides funding for anti-encryption lobbying in the North American and the EU. Ashton Kutcher, Demi Moore. They try to whitewash Thorn's actions while lobbying on their behalf. The EU government let them bypass civil rights groups with their lobbying due to their fame. Other actors involved with Thorn can be found [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization)). Ernie Allen, chair of the WeProtect Global Alliance, WPGA, and former head of the National Centre for Missing & Exploited Children, NCMEC, in the US. Part of the network of fake charities and corrupt organizations lobbying to ban encryption and privacy. Sarah Gardner, former Thorn employee and now the head of the Heat Initiative. Part of the network of fake charities and corrupt organizations lobbying to ban encryption and privacy. She's focus on US lobbying. Lily Rhodes, former Thorn employee and now the director of strategic operations at the Heat Initiative. Part of the network of fake charities and corrupt organizations lobbying to ban encryption and privacy. She's focus on US lobbying. Maciej Szpunar, Polish Advocate General at the European Court of Justice. Wants to use the proposal for prosecuting copyright infringement. Other individuals involved are: Margrethe Vestager, Margaritis Schinas, Antonio Labrador Jimenez, Douglas Griffiths, Javier Zarzalejos. A non exhaustive list of the fake charities and corrupt organizations involved: ECPAT, Eurochild, Missing Children Europe, Internet Watch Foundation, Terre des Hommes, Brave Movement, Thorn, Oak Foundation, WeProtect Global Alliance, Justice Initiative, Purpose Organizations operating more in North America: Hopewell Fund, Heat Initiative, Children’s Investment Fund Foundation Finally, let's not forget that Ashton Kutcher, the darling of VCs, had to step down from his position at Thorn after submitting letters in support of their fellow actor and friend, a convicted rapist. If he is willing to push for such privacy invasive measures in EU, he won't stop there, he will come for you in the US as well.
- gamesbrainiac 3y agoHow do we as Europeans make sure that this ugly piece of legislation never rears its ugly head again.
- f233f2 3y agoThis is pushed by people in the EU who aren't elected, so the only solution is to lobby for our countries to leave the EU.
- Macha 3y agoWhich of course is why the country that did leave the EU has passed anti-E2EE legislation already while the attempt to do so in the EU is apparently floundering
- radicalbyte 3y agoThe proposal comes from the Commission but it has to be voted for by the Member States in the European Parliament. They can (and will) demand changes to the text. I've seen this process up close (for a Member State) and it is reliably slow with a reliable amount of ping-pong and battles between the various parties..
- gamesbrainiac 3y agoHow do we just kill the bill? This is a terrible piece of legislation through and though and has been masquerading as something to protect childen.
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoYou can't and that's the problem. This is Chat Control 2.0, the first bill did not make it through so now they come back with this new iteration. If this one doesn't pass , they'll come back with Chat control 3.0 and so on by next year or the one after.
- radicalbyte 3y ago
- wkat4242 3y agoGood. But this will keep festering until it is killed for sure. And even then they will just rehash it in a different form and push it again. The problem is also, this won't work. The pervs will simply use something else, prompting even stronger regulation to avoid having unapproved apps etc. Meanwhile we will all live in a panopticon society for no tangible benefits. In the end it could even kill FOSS and open computing because anyone who can edit the code can edit out the spyware.
- supriyo-biswas 3y agoThe EU is already planning to make that happen through the Cyber Resilience Act[1], which imposes unreasonable constraints and litigation risks for FOSS users unless certified. [1] https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/cyber-resilience-act https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/cyber-resi...
- raxxorraxor 3y agoThe EU tries really hard to kill any innovation in Europe at the source. But this is even worse than that. It would allow for dubious security resellers to define adequate protections. That would basically be their own products. Everyone in IT knows that there are borderline dubious products that heavily border scam. Not every security solution of course, but there is a lot of bad sheep that present as much a danger to security as direct attacks. If you want to protect user data, don't collect it. Best security you can achieve. Perhaps I am overanalyzing and this just tries to introduce formal processes to deal with security concerns. But it doesn't look like it. It seems you need a third party to certify your products for once and I believe this is lobbying for questionable security products and lawyers in one go.
- denton-scratch 3y ago> The EU tries really hard to kill any innovation This trope is getting tedious. The EU tries to regulate the Wild West that the internet opened up. That's not at all the same as "killing innovation". It's reasonable and realistic to try to regulate. I'm fearful of attempts to regulate the internet, because there are strong forces that want to load the regulations with provisions that would be a dictator's wet dream. But to my mind, unregulated everything is a nightmare.
- walterbell 3y agoThe draft law makes it clear that chat control is a surveillance tool: Non-public communication services are to be exempted, for example if they are "used for national security purposes." This is to protect "confidential information, including classified information." States do not want chat control for their own communications to avoid surveillance .. Poland demanded that only chats of "people under concrete suspicion" should be scanned .. Netherlands and Germany want to exempt audio telephony, while Sweden wants to exempt communications over mobile networks. https://newsfromuncibal.substack.com/p/the-death-of-the-rules-based-order https://newsfromuncibal.substack.com/p/the-death-of-the-rule... > The making and enforcement of rules – abstract, general, binding and enforceable; ‘thou shalt not steal’ – were once considered to be the essence of government. But rules are, in modern governance circles, considered to be about as outmoded and silly a tool of governing as there can possibly be ... The focus is on institutional architecture and the relationships among private and public actors, rather than on the substantive prescription of state legislation, rules, and judicial decisions ... Global governance has become deeply impatient and dissatisfied with the wearisome business of rule-making and especially rule enforcement. Rules are rigid; rules are boring; rules are annoyingly transparent in respect of their breach. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37479001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37479001 > This article explains a phenomenon I've been observing with growing uneasiness that I couldn't quite put my finger on till now ... this trend towards delegating power and decision making to an individual office or committee is an abandonment of this [rule of law] principle in favor of a return to rule by individuals who decide at their whim whether to allow or prohibit a thing, where by simply being in favor with certain bureaucrats one can be immune from accountability where politically unpopular targets can be harassed by the state without end simply because they are not politically favored.
- denton-scratch 3y ago> while Sweden wants to exempt communications over mobile networks So let me get that straight: they want to allow Chat Control only on fixed-line networks? Do they have landline phones in Sweden that can run chat apps? That looks like a spoiler tactic to me.
- permo-w 3y agowi-fi?
- denton-scratch 3y agoYou can't chat over wifi, unless the person you're chatting with is in the same house, unless your wifi is provided by an internet gateway.
- permo-w 3y agothis is intentional misunderstanding
- denton-scratch 3y agoNot on my part! If I misunderstood your (one-word) comment, it wasn't intentional.
- permo-w 3y agoby wi-fi, I of course meant broadband
- frank_bb 3y ago[dead]
- leotravis10 3y agoFrom the EU's own EDPS with a damming comment: "In its current form, the CSAM proposal would fundamentally change the internet and digital communication as we know it, and that will be a point of no return." https://edps.europa.eu/system/files/2023-10/edsp_briefing-note_csam_proposal-the_point_of_no_return_0.pdf https://edps.europa.eu/system/files/2023-10/edsp_briefing-no...