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I'd wager most people here who don't get enough sleep aren't doing so out of some sort of grindset mentality, but because they simply cannot. I find it very har

I'd wager most people here who don't get enough sleep aren't doing so out of some sort of grindset mentality, but because they simply cannot. I find it very hard to fall asleep, nearly impossible to sleep in (a consequence of getting older?), and more interrupted sleep. I'm reticent to try drugs to enable sleep because I've heard that the sleep they provide is not true sleep.

MarkusQ 3y ago
Physical labor. Or exercise. If you push yourself to the point where you're physically tired, you'll sleep like a rock. If it doesn't, you're either not pushing hard enough or you ought to see a doctor.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Heavy exercise, like lifting weights after work(5PM), makes me fall asleep eve harder. I can still feel the adrenaline and elevated heart rate and body temperature that just makes it even more difficult to fall asleep so I have no idea how people who go to the gym at 9PM manage to fall asleep. I wish I knew their secret or had their genetics. Lighter exercises that don't stress the body, like long walks and yoga are much better for sleeping but not good for building muscle. My problem isn't falling asleep, it's staying asleep for long enough to feel rested. I usually wake up after 4-5h and can't easily fall back to sleep. By the time I get sleepy again(7-8AM) it's already morning and time to get up for work. So far I haven't found a (natural) cure for this. There's medication that aids with getting long sleep but the side effects (drowsy ness and brain fog) are nearly just as bad as the lack of sleep.
  - yahmez 3y ago
    Have you experimented with sleeping while fasted at all? I have heard a few people say they get their best sleep when sleeping on an empty stomach. I also find white noise and a sleep mask have helped a fair bit. I’m a very light sleeper so little background noises wake me easily, so having white noise on helps there. And wearing a sleep mask notably improved my sleep as our bedroom can get quite bright (even with blackout curtains). Anecdotally though, the most important factors for me are sun exposure (particularly morning and evening), weight lifting (or exercise in general), and cutting out caffeine.
  - vbarrielle 3y ago
    Heavy exercise should be avoided in the evening, it's best to do it early in the morning or during your lunch break if you can.
- voidhorse 3y ago
  I do think sufficient physical activity helps, but timing is important. I find that if I work out too late in the evening remnants of adrenaline are still coursing by the time I try to go to sleep and actually hamper, rather than help getting to sleep.
- dalyons 3y ago
  Love me an over simplified solution for a very complex problem.
- mmanfrin 3y ago
  My issues sleeping have gotten worse in the time that I've started to seriously weight train. I am having nights where I'm so exhausted I could cry and still have a hard time getting steady sleep.
- j_mo 3y ago
  Never worked for me, I think if you're physically fit, being physically tired has no correlation on sleep. Since 12y/o I've struggled to sleep before 1-2am, and since 14y/o I've exercised a frankly ridiculous amount. 14-18yo I went to the gym 1hr/day every weekday, boxing 1-2hrs 3x/wk, karate 1hr 2x/wk. 18yo+ I've boxed, run 30-40 miles/wk (some 3/4hr runs in there too leading up to ultras), climbed 2-10hrs/wk, and gym 2-3x/wk for the last 5 years although that schedule and activity level has varied since I have no real reason to kill myself training now that I don't compete in anything. None of the above have an impact on sleep or ability to fall asleep, I have taken weeks off due to injury or months off due to burnout after a 12hr race, and my sleep schedule hasn't changed. Still tired-ish around 5-7, then 7-2am find it impossible to fall asleep, followed by 5-6hrs sleep and repeat. I 100% agree with the guy who replied to you that got heavily downvoted that "just exercise" is a vastly oversimplified response to the complex issues most people have with sleep. Not everybody's sleep issues are due to an inactive lifestyle, and I'd bet that is not the case for the majority of people.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
notsurenymore 3y ago
I have this pattern of getting really tired in the early afternoon, and then by night time, I would be fully awake. I couldn’t just sleep when I was tired because then I won’t sleep at night, and it just become this terrible cycle. I can’t stay awake at night because things need to be done during the day. It’s been better recently, but some years ago, I would come home from work just completely exhausted and pass out immediately. I would only sleep for a few hours, but then wouldn’t get tired again until 4-5am at which point I often would just power through it because I’d have to get ready and go to work in a couple hours anyway. It peaked a few years ago when I completely wrecked my sleep and didn’t sleep for a few days straight. I remember waking up, thinking about something I believe was just utter nonsense, and a second later being unable to recall what I was even thinking about. I ended up getting my sleep schedule back by cycling some light stimulants during the day and crappy sleep aids at night until I was back to a normal schedule, but that probably wasn’t very healthy itself.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  I've always been sort of a "night owl" I can stay up to 2 or 3 am pretty easily and like sleeping until 10 or 11am. I seem to get my best "deep" sleep between 6am and 10am.
  - notsurenymore 3y ago
    Yeah that sounds similar to what my sleep schedule has been since I’ve been out of work. Prior to that I was doing mostly 12a-8a, but I was working remotely so it was easier. I do enjoy the night, it’s cooler and calmer, sadly there’s just not much that can get done. I remember years ago working a night job, where I would often work very long hours, but I would get accusations of being lazy from people who just saw me as sleeping all day.
  - mmanfrin 3y ago
    That was absolutely me too, until about a year ago when I lost the ability to sleep in (at all, I cannot sleep past 8ish). It's been a painful adjusting period.
- 3y ago
ekianjo 3y ago
Most of it is lack of physical activity. If you use your body enough during the day you are very unlikely to have problems sleeping at night.
nikkwong 3y ago
That may not necessarily be totally true, you're most likely referring to hypnotics (ambien, lunesta, etc)—which were used by doctors for patients in some circumstances but are slowly falling out of fashion for the reasons you describe. There are older and newer classes of drugs on the market that are being used as first-line therapies which not only preserve sleep architecture but in many cases even enhance it. Trazodone (a very old SARI) for example increases the amount of slow-wave sleep in healthy individuals and amount of time spent asleep. There are many newer drugs, suvorexant, ramelteon, etc. These medications are of course not without side effects but for many patients they work very well. I'd say if you're suffering from chronic sleep deprivation then the cost-benefit analysis strongly leans in the direction of a pharmaceutical that fixes that since sleep is second to none in improving health and wellness outcomes. There are many insults that can cause disrupted sleep architecture like you're describing—impaired gut microbiota, stress, lack of exercise, etc—all of which may respond to their own remedies. I experimented for years and finally have wonderful sleep with desmopressin + trazodone. And I was at a place where my sleep was seemingly uncureable—waking up every hour or every few hours on most nights. If you want great sleep, you might have to fight to find the correct path for your own situation.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  How did you come across desmopressin, isnt that a bed-wetting thing? How does it help with sleep outside of urinary issues?
  - nikkwong 3y ago
    It’s not strictly for bedwetting. I’d generally wake up a few times a night to urinate and I’d noticed that my sleep would become very fragmented for 30-60min before actually being fully awaken to void. Knowing that this was affecting my sleep quality, I tried limiting fluids and compression socks. Neither fully worked, so a pharmaceutical intervention seemed worth a try when I stumbled upon it online. The difference is night and day, I sleep throughout the night rather than the multiple awakenings I had been susceptible to. My urine is also a dark yellow upon awakening rather than the clearish tint I had been accustomed to. My blood work is normal but my gut floras are not in perfect ratios as revealed by some testing. For some reason in my case that has manifested as electrolyte/fluid balance issues at night which are corrected by the desmopressin.
atmosx 3y ago
Are you physically tired when trying to sleep? Without a level of physical activity is next to impossible to achieve a good night sleep.
- mmanfrin 3y ago
  Yes, I've actually been more physically tired than usual lately (training/gym which never used to be part of my routine now are). Last week I was dead tired and had exercised for hours and I still had trouble sleeping.
topkai22 3y ago
You may want to consider a short course of sleep aids to see if it can help adjust your schedule. This is unscientific, but I’ve found that if I’m dealing with persistent insomnia, taking something to help me fall asleep when I want to can lead me to “readjust” to the new schedule. I used this the most when traveling and dealing with jet lag, but I still occasionally find it useful to take an OTC sleep aid when my schedule gets “off.” Interrupted sleep is tougher. I’ve had some success by just accepting that if I haven’t fallen back asleep in 15-20 minutes I probably should get up and walk around for a bit and maybe try the couch instead, but it’s not great.
- tacocataco 3y ago
  That's what I do when I can't sleep. I "give up" trying to sleep and do something for a hour or two. Then I go through the usual prebed ritual. This gives me more attempts at sleep. Better to have more opportunities then fewer.
jks 3y ago
If you don't like drugs, look up Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I). It is kind of a collection of tricks, but it goes further than your basic sleep hygiene checklist. One thing it includes that helps many people if they can do it is the Spielman sleep-restriction protocol: https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-treatments/c/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-insomnia/procedures/sleep-restriction.html https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-treatments/c/cognitiv...
theGnuMe 3y ago
Go in for a sleep study. You may have sleep apnea. Also work on your sleep hygiene.. There is also sleep therapy which may be helpful. I find I get the best sleep when I go camping. No artificial light and sync'd with the sun.

MarkusQ 3y ago

Physical labor. Or exercise. If you push yourself to the point where you're physically tired, you'll sleep like a rock. If it doesn't, you're either not pushing hard enough or you ought to see a doctor.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Heavy exercise, like lifting weights after work(5PM), makes me fall asleep eve harder. I can still feel the adrenaline and elevated heart rate and body temperature that just makes it even more difficult to fall asleep so I have no idea how people who go to the gym at 9PM manage to fall asleep. I wish I knew their secret or had their genetics. Lighter exercises that don't stress the body, like long walks and yoga are much better for sleeping but not good for building muscle. My problem isn't falling asleep, it's staying asleep for long enough to feel rested. I usually wake up after 4-5h and can't easily fall back to sleep. By the time I get sleepy again(7-8AM) it's already morning and time to get up for work. So far I haven't found a (natural) cure for this. There's medication that aids with getting long sleep but the side effects (drowsy ness and brain fog) are nearly just as bad as the lack of sleep.
- yahmez 3y ago
  Have you experimented with sleeping while fasted at all? I have heard a few people say they get their best sleep when sleeping on an empty stomach. I also find white noise and a sleep mask have helped a fair bit. I’m a very light sleeper so little background noises wake me easily, so having white noise on helps there. And wearing a sleep mask notably improved my sleep as our bedroom can get quite bright (even with blackout curtains). Anecdotally though, the most important factors for me are sun exposure (particularly morning and evening), weight lifting (or exercise in general), and cutting out caffeine.
- vbarrielle 3y ago
  Heavy exercise should be avoided in the evening, it's best to do it early in the morning or during your lunch break if you can.
voidhorse 3y ago
I do think sufficient physical activity helps, but timing is important. I find that if I work out too late in the evening remnants of adrenaline are still coursing by the time I try to go to sleep and actually hamper, rather than help getting to sleep.
dalyons 3y ago
Love me an over simplified solution for a very complex problem.
mmanfrin 3y ago
My issues sleeping have gotten worse in the time that I've started to seriously weight train. I am having nights where I'm so exhausted I could cry and still have a hard time getting steady sleep.
j_mo 3y ago
Never worked for me, I think if you're physically fit, being physically tired has no correlation on sleep. Since 12y/o I've struggled to sleep before 1-2am, and since 14y/o I've exercised a frankly ridiculous amount. 14-18yo I went to the gym 1hr/day every weekday, boxing 1-2hrs 3x/wk, karate 1hr 2x/wk. 18yo+ I've boxed, run 30-40 miles/wk (some 3/4hr runs in there too leading up to ultras), climbed 2-10hrs/wk, and gym 2-3x/wk for the last 5 years although that schedule and activity level has varied since I have no real reason to kill myself training now that I don't compete in anything. None of the above have an impact on sleep or ability to fall asleep, I have taken weeks off due to injury or months off due to burnout after a 12hr race, and my sleep schedule hasn't changed. Still tired-ish around 5-7, then 7-2am find it impossible to fall asleep, followed by 5-6hrs sleep and repeat. I 100% agree with the guy who replied to you that got heavily downvoted that "just exercise" is a vastly oversimplified response to the complex issues most people have with sleep. Not everybody's sleep issues are due to an inactive lifestyle, and I'd bet that is not the case for the majority of people.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

notsurenymore 3y ago

I have this pattern of getting really tired in the early afternoon, and then by night time, I would be fully awake. I couldn’t just sleep when I was tired because then I won’t sleep at night, and it just become this terrible cycle. I can’t stay awake at night because things need to be done during the day. It’s been better recently, but some years ago, I would come home from work just completely exhausted and pass out immediately. I would only sleep for a few hours, but then wouldn’t get tired again until 4-5am at which point I often would just power through it because I’d have to get ready and go to work in a couple hours anyway. It peaked a few years ago when I completely wrecked my sleep and didn’t sleep for a few days straight. I remember waking up, thinking about something I believe was just utter nonsense, and a second later being unable to recall what I was even thinking about. I ended up getting my sleep schedule back by cycling some light stimulants during the day and crappy sleep aids at night until I was back to a normal schedule, but that probably wasn’t very healthy itself.

SoftTalker 3y ago
I've always been sort of a "night owl" I can stay up to 2 or 3 am pretty easily and like sleeping until 10 or 11am. I seem to get my best "deep" sleep between 6am and 10am.
- notsurenymore 3y ago
  Yeah that sounds similar to what my sleep schedule has been since I’ve been out of work. Prior to that I was doing mostly 12a-8a, but I was working remotely so it was easier. I do enjoy the night, it’s cooler and calmer, sadly there’s just not much that can get done. I remember years ago working a night job, where I would often work very long hours, but I would get accusations of being lazy from people who just saw me as sleeping all day.
- mmanfrin 3y ago
  That was absolutely me too, until about a year ago when I lost the ability to sleep in (at all, I cannot sleep past 8ish). It's been a painful adjusting period.
3y ago

ekianjo 3y ago

Most of it is lack of physical activity. If you use your body enough during the day you are very unlikely to have problems sleeping at night.

nikkwong 3y ago

That may not necessarily be totally true, you're most likely referring to hypnotics (ambien, lunesta, etc)—which were used by doctors for patients in some circumstances but are slowly falling out of fashion for the reasons you describe. There are older and newer classes of drugs on the market that are being used as first-line therapies which not only preserve sleep architecture but in many cases even enhance it. Trazodone (a very old SARI) for example increases the amount of slow-wave sleep in healthy individuals and amount of time spent asleep. There are many newer drugs, suvorexant, ramelteon, etc. These medications are of course not without side effects but for many patients they work very well. I'd say if you're suffering from chronic sleep deprivation then the cost-benefit analysis strongly leans in the direction of a pharmaceutical that fixes that since sleep is second to none in improving health and wellness outcomes. There are many insults that can cause disrupted sleep architecture like you're describing—impaired gut microbiota, stress, lack of exercise, etc—all of which may respond to their own remedies. I experimented for years and finally have wonderful sleep with desmopressin + trazodone. And I was at a place where my sleep was seemingly uncureable—waking up every hour or every few hours on most nights. If you want great sleep, you might have to fight to find the correct path for your own situation.

Obscurity4340 3y ago
How did you come across desmopressin, isnt that a bed-wetting thing? How does it help with sleep outside of urinary issues?
- nikkwong 3y ago
  It’s not strictly for bedwetting. I’d generally wake up a few times a night to urinate and I’d noticed that my sleep would become very fragmented for 30-60min before actually being fully awaken to void. Knowing that this was affecting my sleep quality, I tried limiting fluids and compression socks. Neither fully worked, so a pharmaceutical intervention seemed worth a try when I stumbled upon it online. The difference is night and day, I sleep throughout the night rather than the multiple awakenings I had been susceptible to. My urine is also a dark yellow upon awakening rather than the clearish tint I had been accustomed to. My blood work is normal but my gut floras are not in perfect ratios as revealed by some testing. For some reason in my case that has manifested as electrolyte/fluid balance issues at night which are corrected by the desmopressin.

atmosx 3y ago

Are you physically tired when trying to sleep? Without a level of physical activity is next to impossible to achieve a good night sleep.

mmanfrin 3y ago
Yes, I've actually been more physically tired than usual lately (training/gym which never used to be part of my routine now are). Last week I was dead tired and had exercised for hours and I still had trouble sleeping.

topkai22 3y ago

You may want to consider a short course of sleep aids to see if it can help adjust your schedule. This is unscientific, but I’ve found that if I’m dealing with persistent insomnia, taking something to help me fall asleep when I want to can lead me to “readjust” to the new schedule. I used this the most when traveling and dealing with jet lag, but I still occasionally find it useful to take an OTC sleep aid when my schedule gets “off.” Interrupted sleep is tougher. I’ve had some success by just accepting that if I haven’t fallen back asleep in 15-20 minutes I probably should get up and walk around for a bit and maybe try the couch instead, but it’s not great.

tacocataco 3y ago
That's what I do when I can't sleep. I "give up" trying to sleep and do something for a hour or two. Then I go through the usual prebed ritual. This gives me more attempts at sleep. Better to have more opportunities then fewer.

jks 3y ago

If you don't like drugs, look up Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I). It is kind of a collection of tricks, but it goes further than your basic sleep hygiene checklist. One thing it includes that helps many people if they can do it is the Spielman sleep-restriction protocol: https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-treatments/c/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-insomnia/procedures/sleep-restriction.html https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-treatments/c/cognitiv...

theGnuMe 3y ago

Go in for a sleep study. You may have sleep apnea. Also work on your sleep hygiene.. There is also sleep therapy which may be helpful. I find I get the best sleep when I go camping. No artificial light and sync'd with the sun.