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The TRON Project: How Japan almost ruled IT (2022)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Animats 3y agoDownload it from Github.[1] [1] https://github.com/tron-forum/mtkernel_3 https://github.com/tron-forum/mtkernel_3
- WillAdams 3y agoAny hope of seeing this ported to the Raspberry Pi?
- parker_mountain 3y agoYeah, grab the source and get to work! :) Honestly, what do you think running this on a rbp would accomplish for you? It's an RTOS, not a desktop operating system.
- jhdias 3y agoNot mutually exclusive: http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html
- snvzz 3y agoA RTOS can be a general purpose operating system. Whereas an operating system that isn't an RTOS cannot be general purpose, as it cannot be an RTOS.
- guenthert 3y agoWhy would you run a desktop OS on an open frame computer? And before I get downvoted (and lose the precious karma points) into oblivion, I answer the 'question' myself: - availability of the software - ease of use - familiarity - performance (throughput, not latency) - popularity (with the advantages that this brings: availability of help, applications, thoroughly tested, etc.) Many use RPi as a low power, somewhat feeble desktop computer but that doesn't make a desktop OS an ideal or obvious choice for embedded applications where open frame computers are (arguably more sensibly) used.
- numpad0 3y agoThere is actually a closed source desktop variant called BTRON spec. uITRON clones are just small(and among very few of actually practical) parts of the grandiose TRON Project universe.
- peppermint_gum 3y agoIt feels like every country (that is not the US) has a legend about how the X company could have been the next Apple/IBM/Microsoft if it weren't for evil/corrupt/incompetent politicians. Usually these stories fall apart on closer inspection. Not surprisingly, this story doesn't pass my smell test either. It's very light on details. It also talks a lot about the thoughts in Bill Gates' head, but fails to provide any quotes to back them up.
- huytersd 3y agoIt’s easy to frame “could have been” stories and is an efficient route for soft nationalism.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoThe style of argument in the article is so weird because, at least to me, it has the exact opposite effect of what I presume the author intended. It just sounds like over-the-top nationalistic sour grapes, even if I give it the benefit of the doubt and assume the factual details (which are rather few and far between) are true. Which is a big shame I think because I'd be very interested to know more about the TRON project and how it compared to other OSes of the day. I went to the Wikipedia page, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project, which unfortunately suffers from the same semi-ridiculous bias: "The project's goal is to create an ideal computer architecture and network, to provide for all of society's needs." Who writes shit like that?
- manxman 3y agoJust visited Japan for a couple of months. The big tech retailer there is "BIC Camera" which contrary to the name sells everything from Cameras to Macs/PCs to drones and pretty much all consumer electronics. 20 years ago it had a bunch of interest stuff that wasn't available in the west and was typically better constructed than the stuff we got. Now it's way behind the curve. PCs and accessories that I've not seen in UK/US stores for over a decade. Fax machines are still a thing and sold new. But outside of such curiosities, it's interesting looking at where Japanese tech has sunk. The Japanese can't bear to stock Samsung/LG televisions for reasons of national prime one presumes. So there are a bunch of locally branded televisions that seem antiquated - a far cry from the era where Sony held the crown for top end displays. The PC vendors from Sony Vaio to Toshiba/Dynabook are gone or diminished. The consumer electronics/home electronics that once were interesting look increasingly dated given the Japanese obsession with putting lots of confusing buttons on their products instead of cleaning up the user experience (Japanese toilets are a great example of this... press the wrong button and get violated!) And of course the camera section of BIC Camera is perhaps the most interesting predictor of where Japan's tech industry is headed. Sure the latest Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless cameras are amazing feats of engineering. The problem is that the cameras in phones have become so good that for 99% of the market, the camera in their phone is more than sufficient. So the Japanese camera vendors have become and will continue to will become increasingly niche. Of course the DJI drones next to the camera section offer capabilities the mirrorless variety can't match. So even more of the Japanese core tech industry will get eaten by China. Pair all of the above with 260% debt to GDP (which is insanely insane even compared to the US/Europe), a population demographic pyramid showing not just an aging population but one that's rapidly declining and an economy that seems build on smoke and mirrors (go into any 7-Eleven and see unbelievably low prices for convenience groceries compared to any US/European store). Such businesses are part of what I'm told is an extensive network of zombie corporations that are run at a loss, subsidised by the banks in order for the banks to get aid/subsidies from the Japanese Government. Then there's Toyota. Once a clear leader in both fossil fuel and hybrid cars that now has to issue press releases about future battery tech that isn't even close to production. They lag behind both Tesla and the European electric car vendors in actual offerings. Likewise Nissan's electric offerings look increasingly uncompetitive between their shenanigans getting their former non-Japanese CEO thrown in jail. If these aren't enough - look around Japan outside of the 5 major cities. So much of the mid tier and smaller parts of Japan have been starved of cash. Cities built at the peak in the 80s and 90s with no signs of new development in 20-30 years. My conclusion: Japan Inc. is a Ponzi scheme that Bernie Madoff would have loved to have conceived, veiled in superficial politeness intermingled with lots of courteous smiles and bows.
- neilv 3y ago> It is hard to imagine Microsoft not having stifled TRON as an OS for general users anyway. Still it is a shame that the Japanese government had no strategy and corporate Japan was such a coward. If they had envisioned the future rise of information technology correctly, they would have known about the superiority and importance of their software. It sounded from this same article like geopolitical pressure had been brought to bear. Not knowing more about the situation, I'm not ready to call that "such a coward"; it might've been the right call. For example, imagine a parent accepting humiliation, to protect their children from an immediate threat.
- vGPU 3y agoI’ve heard that it wasn’t going so great so it provided a convenient excuse to cancel it. TRON is still widely used in Japanese industry.
- AlbertCory 3y agoLook up the book "The Fifth Generation" (1982) How the Japanese were going to conquer the world with AI.
- appleiigs 3y agoI thought they were going to continue their 80s dominance with their robot technology, starting with those amazing vending machines. But then nothing happened.
- throwaway2037 3y agoBut they continue to dominate in factory automation. Germany too.
- brabel 3y agoIn industrial automation, the Japanese do have a large market share.
- tansan 3y agoI searched it on Amazon and didn't see anything relevant there. Could you share more details?
- AlbertCory 3y agohttps://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Generation-Artificial-Intelligence-Challenge/dp/0330284703/ref=sr_1_5 https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Generation-Artificial-Intellige...
- tansan 3y agoThank you
- virgulino 3y agoJapan's 10-year "Fifth Generation Computing Systems" initiative. I remember, this was very famous in the 80s. It was talked about all over the world. Even in popular magazines in Brazil (like Time), for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Generation_Computer_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Generation_Computer_Syst...
- jandrese 3y ago> All the hardware and software would have been publicly available at the cost of an annual membership fee to the TRON Association. Ranging from about $23,000 a year down to a modest $4,600. Cause of death identified. They wanted to do open source with a paywall. A fee structure well outside of what a hobbyist can afford, but hobbyists are the core of open source.
- hamandcheese 3y ago> but hobbyists are the core of open source. Is this actually true? Is it true when looking only at core projects like the Linux kernel?
- Our_Benefactors 3y agoHobbyists grow up to be contributors. If they can’t become hobbyists because the cost is high, they’ll never become contributors either.
- jandrese 3y agoIt’s less true for the kernel than it is for most open source projects. The kernel has a fair bit of corporate backing now, but out in user land there are way more projects being maintained by volunteers because they find value in it.
- Sakos 3y agoNow, yes, but it wouldn't have so much corporate backing now without all the hobbyist contributors before. And even now there are so many OSS projects, so many core libraries that entire industries and businesses are reliant on which are kept alive by a handful of people or even just a single person with no corporate backing at all. Corporate backing is the exception, not the rule.
- ryukafalz 3y agoTo use an example that's relevant here given the smart home context: Home Assistant has a huge community of hobbyists around it, and I think it's fair to say it couldn't have gotten nearly as far as it has without community contributions.
- fidotron 3y agoThe definitive English Tron Project website is http://tronweb.super-nova.co.jp/homepage.html http://tronweb.super-nova.co.jp/homepage.html Ken Sakamura is a genius.
- h2odragon 3y agoreminds me of Geoworks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29402609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29402609
- netsharc 3y agoHah, imagine having a standard open OS for IoT gadgets, which seems to be a part of this project.. then we wouldn't be in the current dystopia..
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago(2022)
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoSome related Tron OS links shared around here over the years: The funky keyboard http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html More on the OS architecture: http://tronweb.super-nova.co.jp/itron.html http://tronweb.super-nova.co.jp/itron.html
- Findecanor 3y agoThe TRON smart house: https://youtu.be/7jPKEyM44GU https://youtu.be/7jPKEyM44GU Demonstration of BTRON: https://youtu.be/7RNbIEJvjUA?t=1505 https://youtu.be/7RNbIEJvjUA?t=1505
- rramadass 3y agoThese are the ones to watch. I can't help but feel wistful about what could have been if these had become mainstream then.
- duxup 3y agoThere’s not much in this article to me that indicated that TRON “Almost Ruled IT”.
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- throwaway4good 3y agoIn the 80es the us and Japan fought a tech and trade war very similar to the us china tech war that is going on today. A war that Japan decidedly lost. Here is an article from Chinese state media drawing the parallels: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-11/Lessons-from-U-S-Japan-trade-war-of-1980s-IcWJh9RjAQ/share_amp.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-11/Lessons-from-U-S-Japan... What can we learn from U.S.-Japan trade war of 1980s? It is true that the ongoing trade war between China and the U.S. is different from the one between the U.S. and Japan in the 1980s, but the two trade wars do have a lot in common. First, both involve the world's largest and second-largest economies; second, China is the country with the largest trade surplus with the U.S., the spot was held by Japan during the 1980s; third, China is highly dependent on the U.S. market, so was Japan. The U.S. approach and the intensity of the trade wars are also more or less the same.
- Barrin92 3y agoAnother article that shows the similarities in mindset from the time is this one from 1987, it's quite funny how similar it reads to stuff published today. https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1987/12/21/69996/index.htm https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1987...
- seeraan 3y agoThis is interesting and.. quite different in one very important key way: "Are the Japanese picking our brains?'' a congressional staffer asks. ''Yes. They're doing it very well. They're doing it legally. The question is whether we have a two-way street"
- throwaway4good 3y agoThe Japanese were also accused of and successfully trailed for industrial espionage.
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- rsync 3y agoIt is glaring how under-represented both Japan and Korea are in the rsync.net user population. We get signups from mainland China. From Saudi Arabia. From Ghana. Even attempted signups from Iran. But it's very, very rare someone from Japan signs up. Why is this ?
- wrp 3y agoI'm not familiar with that community or even ones closely related, but I've worked several years in Japan and Korea, so I'll take a stab at it. For Japan, I'm pretty confident it's the language barrier. As in most countries, tech people in Japan are mostly males, and mostly are not very strong in the humanities and in social skills. This group tends to be extremely self-conscious about their limited English ability and generally avoids interaction with foreigners. For Korea, I see a trend, but I'm not confident about the explanation. I see lots of bright kids at university, see them get hired at big tech firms, and see them enthuse about their work over beers. I don't see them interacting a lot with foreigners. My impression is there is so much going on within Korea that they don't feel strongly motivated to look outside.
- fomine3 3y agoThat's true in general for Japan, but trained Japanese engineers who want a rsync-able cloud storage service are fine to register English web services. There are reasons I come up with: Little known in Japanese community; there are many people don't watch English community even if they are fine to read English docs and send PR. There are almost zero article introduces rsync.net. Yen is weak for Dollar at this time. Overseas storage service tend to be slow from Japan. It's harder to be adopted by enterprises without Japanese reseller. In my experience, rsync+ssh with higher latency is slow and price isn't attracting, so I haven't tried it yet.
- mordechai9000 3y agoMy question would be, how are they solving this problem if they are not using this service?
- roschdal 3y agoUSA using threats of sanctions in order to stop competition from the Japanese computer industry. Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
- antiquark 3y agoTo quote my late grandfather... "Almost isn't."
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pphysch 3y ago> In 1989 the U.S. software industry group, ADAPSO, concluded in a report on Japanese software that TRON had “strong undertones of nationalism and will have the practical effect of impeding foreign penetration of the Japanese market.” This is revealing and a highly important point. A "universal" IT standard like TRON can only come from an entity that has essentially governmental authority over digital technology. It can't come from just a smartphone company or software company, because competitors and other companies have no incentive to comply. It's a bit of a conundrum, because a universal open standard could be really nice for the average hacker, but its practical existence implies an entity that has near total dominion over tech standards. I.e. some entity that could force Apple and Google to implement the standard for all their products.
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago> I.e. some entity that could force Apple and Google to implement the standard for all their products. So like the EU? Didn't the EU literally just force Apple at gun point to implement USB-C on their phones or lose access to the EU? Aren't they also now trying to force Apple to open up parts of iOS like the browser and store?
- mitchbob 3y agohttps://archive.ph/SMl3R https://archive.ph/SMl3R
- transfire 3y agoI believe Microsoft had a hand in killing off many great technologies by a variety of means — Nokia, webOS, Firefox OS, WordPerfect, maybe even Amiga. One ironic exception is Apple, which it bailed out (to thwart government intervention). Thankfully the Gnu’s open source philosophy allowed Linux to survive and thrive. Otherwise we’d be living in a even narrower dystopia of computing choices. (Not even Google would exist.)
- zubairq 3y agoI had never heard of the Tron project before this. I do remember Microsoft and msx however which was a Microsoft / Japanese partnership which was quite big in Japan. Anyway thanks hacker news for bring tron to my attention!
- rramadass 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project
- ehnto 3y agoI would argue Westinghouse demonstrated some of these ideas first, in the 60s. They could have executed on some of it too I am sure, but I believe it was mostly aspirational demonstrators of what the future could hold.
- Daril 3y agoFor the ones who remember BeOS and its history, from Wikipedia : In 2002, Be Inc. sued Microsoft claiming that Hitachi had been dissuaded from selling PCs loaded with BeOS, and that Compaq had been pressured not to market an Internet appliance in partnership with Be. Be also claimed that Microsoft acted to artificially depress Be Inc.'s initial public offering (IPO). The case was eventually settled out of court for $23.25 million with no admission of liability on Microsoft's part.
- sillywalk 3y agoApparently Hitachi did pre-install BeOS, but didn't include a bootloader option to boot it, you had to manually enable it... https://www.osnews.com/story/136392/the-only-pc-ever-shipped-with-beos-preinstalled/ https://www.osnews.com/story/136392/the-only-pc-ever-shipped...
- dredmorbius 3y agoWhich if true would emphasize again just how critically important defaults are. The overwhelming majority of the public won't change settings. Even those that are trivial, low- or no-risk, and readily reverted.
- Daril 3y agoAnd how can we forget the war that MS waged against Linux for many years, and the copyright lawsuits brought by SCO, partly financed by MS? So ... stop for a moment and think about where we could be in terms of software and operating systems if some actors (all from the same country) didn't keep trying to kill the competition with unfair tactics in order to continue selling one of the worst operating systems ever created and the main vehicle for all the viruses, malware and ransomware.
- rwmj 3y agoA video about the intelligent house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jPKEyM44GU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jPKEyM44GU Edit: Sorry, it seems this was already posted. Still, the video is more informative than this article.