20 ms·

Philips Hue will soon force users to create an account

316 points by linker3000 3y ago

macinjosh 3y ago
I was literally just moving my Hue bulbs off of the Hue bridge and onto Zigbee via Home Assistant. It was really simple and the Zigbee USB dongle was like $30. Lights work great and the Hue bridge is now unplugged.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Not surprising. Philips consumer electronics, or whatever is left of it anyway, is now just a licensing/branding company who earns money for putting their name brand on various Chinese OEM brands, much like consumer electronics from Nokia, Blackberry, Motorola, Braun, Blaupunkt, Grundig, AEG, Tefal, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sharp, NEC, Sanyo, etc.
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago
  My experience with Hue bulbs and lights is that although they are more expensive, they are of MUCH higher quality - better light intensity and temperature control, longer lasting.
- aden1ne 3y ago
  Philips lighting is no longer Philips at all. They spun that off to Signify, who holds the brand name for Philips lighting.
- snehk 3y ago
  I don't think that's true. Signify designs in the Netherlands and they have their own production facilities in various countries.
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
I'm slowly moving control to a Hubitat (https://hubitat.com/ https://hubitat.com/). But still use the Hue hub for the noisy (frequent messages) Hue bulbs. Anyone have any alternatives?
- zarker 3y ago
  I use Home Assistant. It's open source and there is a huge community around it.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    You still need the Hue hub for that though right?
    - zarker 3y ago
      You will need a Zigbee Hub for sure, but it doesn't need to be Philips Hue hub. Folks have used ConBee II or Sonoff Zigbee USB dongle to replace Hue hub. I have used Sonoff Zigbeen to replace Ikea hub, bot haven't got around to replacing Hue hub just yet. It's on my list :-)
      - drcongo 3y ago
        Thanks, I run HomeBridge on a Pi so I might try this if Hue go through with their plan.
andersrs 3y ago
#internetofshit
- baal80spam 3y ago
  Oh come on - don't you want for all your bulbs to be turned on already _before_ you get back home? It's a gamechanger!
  - grubbs 3y ago
    I'd just like mine to turn to a brown hue when any of the bathrooms in my household are occupied.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    What is a game changer is to be able to just turn off everything in the house when I leave, and know the iron will be off, along with all the lights. It's not critically important, but the many individually small conveniences add up.
    - amelius 3y ago
      Convenience will destroy the world.
      - vidarh 3y ago
        I highly doubt the ability to turn my lights off over a network will destroy the world. And if you're concerned about internet access, there are plenty of hubs for smart projects that don't need internet access. Some don't even need or have wifi capability, but can be wired physically into a dmz with an open source home automation system like Home Assistant. There are USB dongles with Zigbee support as well that you plug straight into your open source based home automation box if you want. That said: Most people just don't care most of the time, because for most peoples use the worst possible consequence is being slightly inconvenienced. E.g. should my Lightwave RF gateway get bricked, the worst case scenario is that my Lightwave switches revert to being dumb switches and I'll be slightly annoyed I won't be able to voice control them. Hardly world-destroying stuff. What's slightly different here is that this is a new move for Hue (it's not for any number of other smart home providers people happily sign up for online services from), and so some subset of their customers will feel compelled to switch zigbee bridges and incur a cost. (But if you're price sensitive, why the hell are you using Hue in the first place?)
noobermin 3y ago
When colleagues, friends, and students say they are getting into IoT it's becoming hard for me to feign interest or excitement when this is what that industry is moving towards.
- vidarh 3y ago
  There are plenty of smart home devices that supports reasonably open protocols. This includes Hue devices (Zigbee) The problem tends to be that all of them want to sucker you into using their apps or bridges to tie it all together. It's entirely avoidable, but most users don't know what to look for.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Flashing those devices to more open software (thanks to the fact vast majority is just esp8/32 with some extra electronics) also often requires opening them which is pita.
    - nullwarp 3y ago
      Hue devices require no flashing
skunkworker 3y ago
This is a disappointing if not unexpected update. I currently have a hue bridge for some hue ambiance bulbs but also have control through HA. There have been some needed bulb updates (improving the stability of last color temp and state on power on) but I will soon fully transition over to HA with a zigbee adapter because of stuff like this.
- kosmotaur 3y ago
  what's HA?
  - skunkworker 3y ago
    Home Assistant https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/ It's a quite powerful tool to integrate a variety of different smart home devices into one location and share them between ecosystems. I have a wifi thermostat that requires a dedicated app and does not allow for Apple Home integration. With Home Assistant I installed an integration for that thermostat, then shared it with the Apple Home bridge (also an integration) and quickly was able to allow my iphone/automations etc, to modify the thermostat. And that's only scratching the surface and something that took a few minutes.
- ssddanbrown 3y ago
  I've just ordered an adapter with the aim to do the same. Hue products have been great due to their quality (often at an extra expense I've deemed worthwhile) and their local-only functionality, but this change indicates it's time to stop buying their products and move things away from their control while it's still possible.
noncoml 3y ago
HP was forcing me to have an account to scan on my printer using their mobile app. I voted with my money and when I needed a printer for my dad I got a Brother.
- AmVess 3y ago
  It is even worse now. Not only do you need an account, but it won't scan if your ink is empty.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  > I got a Brother. And what's his name? :D Jokes apart, it's doable when people still haven't bought anything, but the frustration that I wish was changed is the change in terms and conditions that affects hardware functioning at a level where it's either you selling your data or you being unable to use the hardware, hardware that could also generate e-waste if thrown away
- justinclift 3y ago
  Brother is unfortunately playing games with DRM and similar now too. :(
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Bad service drives out good…
    - AlexandrB 3y ago
      Always going to be a race to the bottom unless the consumer has rights to repair and modify their own devices. Otherwise products that lean on either ad-based or subscription recurring revenue can always undercut products that don't at retail. Make this shit impractical because anyone can install 3rd party firmware that disables the subscription DRM and the problem will go away.
krisoft 3y ago
I have noticed the announcement of the change too. This materially changes the product for me. I was a happy user so far, and was thinking about buying more bulbs in fact, but not anymore. Is there a way to force the company to return the money I have paid for my bulbs and hub so far? Even if it is arduous and cost me more money than I'm able to gain back I would be inclined to do it to signal my displeasure with this change.
- runeks 3y ago
  I'm going to RMA my lightbulb if it stops working because I haven't logged in.
- dharmab 3y ago
  Sue in small claims court?
  - krisoft 3y ago
    Possible. But I guess I should maybe wait for the change to actually happen, then send the equipment back to them and ask for a refund, and only sue them if they are not refunding me?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- grumblez 3y ago
  Fortunately all of their lights work over a standard Zigbee connection. No need for a Hue Hub or App at all. I was already transitioning my lights from using the Hue Hub/App to directly connecting via Zigbee/HomeAssistant before this was announced.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    That is good to know! Thank you very much. I will look in that direction then.
  - noamchomsky1 3y ago
zeisch 3y ago
Time and time again It takes just one MBA trying to boost numbers to turn a good product into a data collection nightmare. Honestly is there any IoT brand that we can trust long-term? Maybe IKEA stuff?
- brainzap 3y ago
  companies are profit first, not trust first
  - amelius 3y ago
    Yes, we need more regulation. Or a better system to begin with.
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
      Do you think its a coincidence this came right after the ban on incandescent bulbs? Regulation got us here. It won't help when government is captured.
      - timeon 3y ago
        > Do you think its a coincidence this came right after the ban on incandescent bulbs? Not really. I do not use incandescent bulbs nor bulbs that require account. You've chosen 216 and you'll find it everywhere in nature.
      - ilyt 3y ago
        Yes. This is idiotic theory, Regulation is only about power efficiency
        friend_and_foe 3y ago
        You must be European.
  - solarkraft 3y ago
luxdeillyrii 3y ago
Since the official Android app indeed refused to control my bulbs w/o an account lately, on my new phone, I switched to the HuePro 3rd party app and so far things seem to work fine.
AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]
contravariant 3y ago
Is there any official announcement of this? I'd like to know some more details on what they plan to do with the existing API. All I can find is references to something posted on twitter, which I refuse to accept as official communication.
- orev 3y ago
  If you install the mobile Hue app, it’s right on the main screen.
  - yebyen 3y ago
    So if I'm not using the Hue app, am I affected? That's what isn't particularly clear from the post or the comments here. If you're already using their app, is it so onerous to get an account? (I might or might not get an account, the Hue kit is already sitting on my shelf collecting dust, but I was thinking of using Urbit or some other open source project to resurrect it soon... so does this affect us?)
    - orev 3y ago
      My bulbs use Bluetooth or ZigBee, and have never needed the Hue hub or the app, as I’ve used Home Assistant with them the whole time. Currently using the app because I need to rebuild HA, and it doesn’t seem like the change effects the bulbs themselves. However you do need the app to install firmware updates, so that would force the account usage if you wanted to stay up to date.
rpodraza 3y ago
Does anyone know if they can force users to do so in EU? It sounds like it's gonna make the product unusable if not registered, therefore revoking my previous rights to use a product without an account.
- jusssi 3y ago
  It seems to me that they're about to force the users to hand out personally identifiable information that is not strictly necessary for the product to work (as evidenced by the fact that it did work without for several years). So there should be an opt-out.
amelius 3y ago
We need a no-tether law. If you buy a product you should be able to use it even if you completely break all ties with the original vendor. Otherwise it's a service and not a product.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  Aren't services exempt from sales tax? Passing that law might be a challenge.
  - NonNefarious 3y ago
    [dead]
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    Not where I live. Can you be more specific? I have never seen a jurisdiction where a sales tax (eg GST or VAT) exempts services. That would be an administrative and enforcement nightmare.
- vidarh 3y ago
  Pretty much any home automation that supports zigbee or z-wave already provides this for everything except their bridges, though. And that includes Hue. While I'd happily support regulating tethering as well, because it'd certainly make some things easier, with a little bit of thought you can build out home automation where it's all under your control. E.g. stick to zigbee and z-wave devices as the default, and get dumb zigbee and z-wave USB dongles, and connect them to an open source bridge, like Home Assistant, and you've got a good start.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Sure, but the bridge is an important part of the system.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      It is, but it's a small one, typically both in cost and number. E.g. I have 5 led strips, half a dozen smart plugs, about 40 bulbs, and a dozen smart switches, and 5 smart radiator valves/thermostats. Replacing a bridge with Home Assistant and a 10 pound USB dongle isn't the problem if everything else speaks open protocols. As I said, I wouldn't object to requiring untethering ability even for those, but requiring open protocols for the other devices is more important. Most of the above is Zigbee, which is open, but some is Tado and Lightwave, and if they go rogue it'd suck to replace the devices rather than just the hubs.
Escapado 3y ago
Whenever I read something like this I sometimes wonder if there is a viable model for a consumer electronics company which works akin to a non-profit that has irrevocable principles it has to follow where something like this won't happen and where shareholder value, buy outs and angel investors can't force the company to become like that. A company that makes use of open standards and hardware, respects right to repair, user privacy, local/offline first, open sources its hardware and software, works with sustainable ecofriendly materials and processes whereever possible, has a transparent and fair salary structure and open inclusive company culture and won't engage in toxic or anti-competitive behaviour. Now I realise that a lot of those points are not as clear cut and products would probably cost a bunch more but somehow I would prefer that. What do you guys think?
- chx 3y ago
  Both people who care about these would make a great customer base /s
mrweasel 3y ago
The whole IoT world is a huge mess. A large number of the products are a massive privacy nightmare, security is questionable in interoperability is a pipe dream. I have an old house, where it location of a few switches are just completely illogical. One solution would be to install a few "smart" switches and a relay or two. If I want to stay secure and care the least bit about cost and privacy, there's no choice other than run an open source gateway solution, funnily enough it's also the only solution that will work with almost everything.
- petre 3y ago
  Zigbee Sonoff relays paired to one of their coordinators flashed with Tasmota. Although if the walls are too thick or tge sistances too high it could pose an issue for 2.4Ghz.
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    I have actually looked at Sonoff, but they won't fit into the wall. In order to fit into classic Danish design tradition our wall mounts/boxes are slightly to small to fit anything not specifically design for them. Our switches and socket looks a lot nice than anything I've seen from the US, EU or UK, but they are special little snowflakes. There's an entire cottage industry and hobby scene around making 3D print and modifications to Ikea, Hue and other switches so that they'll look like "the real thing".
    - petre 3y ago
      Even the mini modules? Maybe put them in the wall dose above the switch? Shellys are even larger. Sonoff seems to put out more miniaturized models every year. https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/zbmini-l2/ https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/zbmini-l2/ Yes, I saw Danish appliances, they look nice.
- yomlica8 3y ago
  Just get some of the many RF controlled switches available on amazon. Many of them you don't even need to do any wiring to use them.
scopeh 3y ago
ffs, who is thinking of this shit. personally i don't own any and now i certainly won't. Smart homes are a great example of a good idea with a shitty implementation.
MrDresden 3y ago
Since I don't see it mentioned here I would like to suggest z-wave (protocol) and the accompanying ecosystem as an alternative. I have multiple lights, power plugs and sensors operating on z-wave being controlled by Home Assistant. None of these require me to log into a third party app or service.
- orev 3y ago
  ZigBee is the open protocol that most people should try to prefer to support open standards. But both Zwave and ZigBee are local-only, so either one is better than something that can call home on the internet.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I've noticed a lot of z-wave adopters seem to be shifting towards zigbee. I guess because it is closer to thread and matter? Some devices seem to be upgradeable for that too.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
guitarlimeo 3y ago
This is frustrating. I have invested a lot in the Hue ecosystem and have also recommended it to my friends based on the facts that you don't need an account to control it, it integrates easily with HA, and you can block it from the internet. Now after one announcement it's something I want to get rid of fast and am ashamed of recommending it to my friends. I already block my Hue Bridge from accessing the internet, so that should keep it from updating so that the functionality stays the same. Does anyone have any good app recommendations for Android? I use HA, but last time I checked you weren't able to configure the actual Hue scenes in it (and using HA scenes triggered Hue's spam limits).
- acidburnNSA 3y ago
  I can recommend this: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ You can keep your Hue bulbs and devices but threw away the app, hub, and need to work with hue as an institution at all. I got a $30 USB zigbee stick to replace the hub. works great!
- ender341341 3y ago
  you basically need to recreate the scenes in home assistant and use the hue bridge as as dumb of a bridge as you can. There should be little to no things that home assistant scenes can't do that hue scenes can. I'll still probably recommend hue light bulbs with the caveat that I don't recommend their bridge/app, compared to the other bulbs I've used they are much more reliable and handle color changes much more smoothly & consistently.
  - bigstrat2003 3y ago
    I haven't used anything but Hue, but I've been looking to get off them because they're so unreliable. Like clockwork, one or two bulbs go bad every year and will still be dimly lit even when "off", or worse still they will start flickering constantly when "off". It's kind of depressing if something with such poor quality is the most reliable option out there. :(
    - altec3 3y ago
poszlem 3y ago
In the Polish comedy film "Miś" ("Teddy Bear"), released in 1981, there is a famous line: "We don't have your coat, what are you going to do about it?" This line is uttered in a cloakroom scene. In the scene, the protagonist Ryszard Ochódzki goes to a cloakroom to retrieve his coat. He hands over his ticket to the attendants. They search but claim they can't find his coat. Ochódzki becomes agitated but the attendants are nonchalant. The scene satirizes inefficiency and lack of accountability in bureaucratic systems. Hue's "take it or leave it" answers ("Believe us, this change can only benefit the users, when it comes to security.") about their recent changes feel kinda the same. The message seems to be, "We're changing this and what are you going to do about it?" It's scary how a movie about life in communist Poland can still feel relevant when dealing with companies today.
- pizzaknife 3y ago
  Brazil is the other end of that spectrum; the intro scene where an embedded bureaucrat loses their, ahem, proverbial shit over a fly and the physical altercation with said fly (literal insect: fly) impacts a printing of "state assault/guilty citizen targets," the result being a chain of events that would have otherwise never taken place. great movie.
- brezelgoring 3y ago
  Maybe one day we'll speak about these silos and systems the same way we speak about the communist bureaucracies of old. Minus the crimes against humanity and all. Perhaps centralization is the problem? I can't help but think all those people in crypto that said "we buy into the protocol, not the coin!" were onto something after all.
poisonborz 3y ago
The big question is at which level this auth is enforced: - official Hue apps - who cares - hue bridge - bad, would break apps like HuePro and would force more complicated setup for some - bulb - unlikely, that would mean everyone buying this for IoT lighting can throw out their whole set
- Semaphor 3y ago
  > - bulb - unlikely, that would mean everyone buying this for IoT lighting can throw out their whole set Not throw out, just don’t upgrade the firmware again and not buy new ones that might have the broken firmware.
- classichasclass 3y ago
  My Hue lights have never been connected to the Internet, so they'll never have to worry about this. I use my own Perl client: https://www.floodgap.com/software/huepl/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/huepl/ I might not buy another base station again, though, if this gets enforced at that level.
- iteratethis 3y ago
  My guess would be in the app. Enforcing it at the bridge level would break so many setups, apps, custom integrations that even if they try this, they'll dial it back from the avalanche of outrage.
throwaway290 3y ago
And 2 years later, if some words in your account username or description age badly, your house will go dark forever.
- pizzaknife 3y ago
  oh do share those choice words
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    That would require knowing the future?
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Imagine having to create an account to use a lightbulb. It's all gone too far.
- trey-jones 3y ago
  Yes. When you take a step back and consider this exact statement, it's utter insanity.
  - sunnybeetroot 3y ago
    It reminds me of the transition of dumb phones where we would transfer files to one another using direct Bluetooth. Then the era of cloud storage came and you would upload to the cloud to transfer to someone next to you. Then we reinvented sending to the device next to you with things like AirDrop and Nearby Share but alas they’re not interoperable.
lousken 3y ago
The app allows me to skip the login/create account step (at least in central europe). I also asked local support about this and they told me it should not require account in the future, unless I want to use philips secure
- orev 3y ago
  The message they have added to the app clearly says that the situation has changed.
Simulacra 3y ago
Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of having to sign up for a service or account just to use the product that you paid for?
- dmead 3y ago
  This is a well established trend. I dropped razer when they tried to get me to login to something to use my fucking mouse.
  - iteratethis 3y ago
    But why? Are you not interested in our weekly 4GB driver update? Even more ways to blink the lights now.
bananapub 3y ago
well, that sucks a lot. Phillips had made an excellent product - reasonably priced, reliable as lights and network-wise, compatible with Homekit, with their random app, with Home Assistant, and now apparently they want to make it worse.
horns4lyfe 3y ago
Cool, I’m done with them. Was a good product, no more.
orev 3y ago
For any app that does this, go to the App Store and give them a one-star rating and a comment on why you’re doing this. In this case, they have a canned copy/paste answer saying that it’s for “security”, so feel free to try to debunk that in your initial comment.
- beached_whale 3y ago
  lol, the homekit provides said security.
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  As someone that used to run a big app - this is effective. Upper management really cares about ratings/reviews/comments
- meeb 3y ago
  Just left my first ever review just to voice my annoyance at this forced and pointless change.
- tivert 3y ago
  > For any app that does this, go to the App Store and give them a one-star rating and a comment on why you’re doing this. Also leave a 1-star review on Amazon. It's totally fair: if they can "update" their product, I can update my opinion of it. Unfortunately for me (now), I bought all my Hue stuff at local stores because it was more convenient than Amazon.
- fullstop 3y ago
  I did this when they excluded other Zigbee lights from the hub, even though they had previously worked. They backed down on that, and maybe they will with this as well. With that being said, I'm done with Hue.
peterbraden 3y ago
Does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement bridge that works with home assistant? It seems I’ll be throwing out the hue bridge and never buying a phillips product again.
- splitrocket 3y ago
  As of right now, you can connect to hue devices directly with Zigbee. The SkyConnect from HomeAssitant/Nabu Casa works quite well: https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect/ https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect/
- rtomanek 3y ago
  Hardware: https://phoscon.de/en/conbee2/ https://phoscon.de/en/conbee2/ Software (you may or may not need it for HA): https://github.com/dresden-elektronik/deconz-rest-plugin https://github.com/dresden-elektronik/deconz-rest-plugin
- 369548684892826 3y ago
  Hue isn't really a Phillips product. Signify is the company you want to avoid.
  - Lio 3y ago
    That might be strictly true but the blowback from this is me avoiding Philips products from now on. They should use their influence with Signify to get them to take a long term view. Right now I regret buying more expensive "Philips" light bulbs, sync boxes and other hardware. I'm pissed off that I bought one product and they've retrospectively changed the terms of usage.
oxfordmale 3y ago
SeeYouLaterAlligator12345678@gmail.com coming up. The more companies force this the less valuable data they get out of it. Sure you can email me, I am just opening the account once a month to keep it active.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  Soon they'll require monthly 2FA to use their products. Ya know, for your protection!
- dieselgate 3y ago
  opening an account once/month is still quite a lot really. without payment automation i can barely keep up with bills
basisword 3y ago
For iOS/Apple users just use the bulbs through the Home app. I don’t think I’ve used the Hue app in at least a couple of years since configuring that. Fuck Phillips. Won’t be buying any more of their products.
- heyoni 3y ago
  Do we know for a fact that it'll keep working after the change? Are there any homekit devices that require you to log in to a separate app? If so, then the change doesn't affect me very much.
- EduardoBautista 3y ago
  I don’t think you can have dynamic lighting that slowly changes the color of the lights with just the Home app.
  - AdamGibbins 3y ago
    You can, Homekit call it "Adaptive Lighting". It's not as flexible though, you just turn it on and Apple does what it wants - there's no variables you can fiddle with if you don't like what its doing.
    - mdekkers 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - EduardoBautista 3y ago
      I believe "Adaptive Lighting" is the light changing throughout the day. Dynamic lighting from Hue changes color slowly over seconds.
devmor 3y ago
This is extremely annoying. I invested in the Hue ecosystem specifically because it was one of the few that did not require an account and allowed me to keep all of my devices offline and isolated on a local network with no internet traffic. I will not be purchasing any more of their products and will do my best to extract a refund for the hundreds of dollars I've spent on them so far.
neilv 3y ago
"What's the worst that could happen, if we let MBA-types take over engineering?" "Even your home's light bulbs will require an Internet-connected computer account that spies on you."
- rchaud 3y ago
  Nice try, but this is the IoT wet dream pioneered by Nest Labs and a ton of other grizzled ex-SV hardware engineers.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Those engineers have been MBA-types in developer clothing for over 2 decades now. The engineer as hacker hasn't been anywhere close to leadership roles for quite a while. Perhaps ever since the 90s. I don't see a passion for computing and hacking with such people, just for making money and VCs. That's why the end product doesn't even matter to them.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Yeah, no true scotsman, I mean no true software developer, would ever do anything like that. Except Google, Meta and the like do exist.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        That's neither here, nor there. I didn't say they're not engineers or developers. I said they're not engineers/developers in the old hacker sense. They don't have a passion for computing and for making something, but for the money and VC schemes. If you think Google and Meta is run with a passion for computing and hacking in mind, and that their products and actions reflect that, then I have a bridge to sell you.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Don't forget highly locked down garage doors that are readily accessible by major merchants. And also pair easily with similarly locked down in garage cameras.
tivert 3y ago
> Philips Hue will soon force users to create a Hue account and sign in to continue to use the app and control the smart lights. The best security model to protect smart devices is to keep them disconnected from the internet, or at least keep this option available. Does this just apply to the phone app, or to the base station as well? IIRC, the base station has a REST API and there are 3rd party apps that can control it (but I haven't touched my Hue light setup in about 5 years, and don't really use any of the smart features anymore).
- falsenapkin 3y ago
  That API is junk and I think requires auth now or something. I was messing with it some months ago and was surprised after a month the system changed.
  - hrpnk 3y ago
    https://developers.meethue.com/develop/get-started-2/ https://developers.meethue.com/develop/get-started-2/ explains how to get the key to use the API. You just need to press the button on the bridge. Sth. broke for me so I wrote a loop and pressed the button frantically until one of the API calls worked: for i in `seq 1 10`; do http -v 192.168.xxx.xxx/api devicetype="my_hue_app#script"; sleep 1; done
inquirerGeneral 3y ago
[dead]
noja 3y ago
This will lose them their HomeKit certification.
ThouYS 3y ago
hahaha, can't say I fee sorry for their customers
karaterobot 3y ago
I'm surprised they didn't already require this, but I think it's probably safe to say it was a likely and foreseeable outcome in any case. That, combined with a dearth of use cases that made sense (for my life) is what's kept me from using these products. About the only reason I could think of to buy smart lightbulbs would be to suddenly turn all the lights in the house red, and yell "torpedoes in the water, brace for impact!" and that doesn't seem like a strong enough argument. I'd probably only do this 2-3 times a month anyway.
- acidburnNSA 3y ago
  Use cases that I personally like: * Turn existing lights into timed night lights that turn on at a configurable brightness when I pass certain motions sensors and then turn off after a timeout (cool/useful when I'm wandering around house at night) * Similar: Turn existing light fixtures into motion activated on switches (useful for dark staircase) * Turn lights on in morning and evening when I'm traveling to make it look like the place is occupied if I'm traveling * Party mode: cool colors shifting in cool ways in the rare event there's a party * Gradually go from bright white light to softer light as the day goes on in the office, and then stay soft at night to help with sleep * Turn on in a sequence when people are detected close by outside in the middle of the night to try to scare them off * Turn a certain color to indicate something being off, like a server offline, water detected, etc.
- rchaud 3y ago
  These products are mostly targeted at the the Youtuber/streamer market that need to add variety to their backdrops.
  - danielbln 3y ago
    No they're not.
  - menacingly 3y ago
    This is not in any way the case
  - coldtea 3y ago
FredPret 3y ago
And next you'll have a subscription to indoor lighting. What can be turned into a subscription next! I can't wait to find out. Maybe I'll become a survivalist who builds his own lightbulbs, computers, etc. Once I figure the off-grid lifestyle out, maybe I can launch a paid newsletter about it...
- failuser 3y ago
  You have a subscription for the indoor lighting through the electricity bill already. It’s more pay-as-you go though.
- andyjohnson0 3y ago
  You have already turned your lights on 80 times in the last 30 day period. To continue turning on your lights, please visit our website to upgrade to one of our premium packages with enhanced light-cycle options. In the meantime, your home lighting will stay in enhanced darkness mode for your comfourt and convenience. Thank you, and have a nice day.
  - npongratz 3y ago
    Your health and safety is our number one priority.
- mikewarot 3y ago
  >What can be turned into a subscription next! I can't wait to find out. On a whim, I googled and found this "Smart" toilet[1] [1] https://www.kohler.com/en/products/toilets/shop-toilets/numi-2-0-one-piece-elongated-smart-toilet-dual-flush-30754-pa https://www.kohler.com/en/products/toilets/shop-toilets/numi...
pizzaknife 3y ago
UBIK. read it.
- GuB-42 3y ago
  What's the link between a story about psychic power and the nature of reality and the need to create an account to control light bulbs?
  - pizzaknife 3y ago
    company trade secrets/pay per use. Book had an ancillary gripe about "nickle and diming" (americanism, think "death by 1000 financial papercuts). A subtext to the entire engagement is that everything is implicitly rented. Here's a non-spoiler quote which (if i recall the book correctly) occurs within the first chapter: “The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. " ^ That door, was "the main character's front door" IoT. edit: grammar
arp242 3y ago
When I bought my no-brand coloured smartlight a few years ago I explicitly passed up on Philips Hue because it now seemed to require some smartphone app, and I just wanted to use a remote control. It's simpler to use, faster to use, has a lot less moving parts, and generally "always works". While there are some use cases where an app might be a bit more convenient, I'm willing to bet that if you asked people on the street that the majority would prefer to use just a remote (I admit I have no data to back this up). Security and privacy concerns don't even come in to play (although these do make the apps even worse) This is a shame, because I had good experiences with my old Hue, when they still did remotes.
- rpadovani 3y ago
  They still do switches, what remotes are you referring to?
  - postmodest 3y ago
    Probably color control?
  - sp332 3y ago
    Like this https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hue-Installation-Free-Exclusively-562777/dp/B08W8GLPD5 https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hue-Installation-Free-Exclusi...
    - arp242 3y ago
      Yeah, but with the ability to change the colour as well, and stuff like that. i.e. basically do everything you can, except without an app. Something like this: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1bweoSVXXXXbHXFXXq6xXFXXXG/New-Original-Remote-HRC0302-10-313922856561-LED-Color-Light-bloom-Living-Colors-AMBIENCE-For-Philips-Light.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1bweoSVXXXXbHXFXXq6xXFXXXG/New... Maybe I missed it, but from the material that was available to me without actually buying one of these things, this seemed impossible: the boxes and stores didn't have any remotes, and I couldn't find anything on the website. If it is possible, then it's hidden pretty well and people are steered towards that app pretty strongly.
beefman 3y ago
The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please." He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you." "I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt." In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. "You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt's money-gulping door. "I'll sue you," the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, "I've never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it. – Philip K. Dick, Ubik (1969) https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to-open-it-said-five-cents-please https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to...
- otachack 3y ago
  You should also cite when "Ubik" was published as it's fascinating: 1969!
- MaxBarraclough 3y ago
  Reminds me of The Right to Read, a short story by Richard Stallman. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Drink a verification can to continue.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
j45 3y ago
The cloud is always someone else's computer. The cloud, and the internet always costs someone, somewhere, money that they ultimately wont' want to keep paying for free. Since this means you will have to pay, it doesn't hurt to look at self hosting if you make it as far as using smart home tech that has a temporarily free cloud.
_dain_ 3y ago
black mirror episode: evilcorp turns off the lights until you install their app, but you can't find your phone in the dark
dmead 3y ago
Oh weird. I was soon planning 5o throw out my 300 bucks worth of hue hardware
pier25 3y ago
Happened to me with some Kasa Smart devices I had owned for years. One day to be able to use the app I needed to create an account. A couple of months later the same thing happend with a Mi Band smart watch. The app required to create an account. Personally I won't be buying any smart devices ever again.
- BrianHenryIE 3y ago
  Use Zigbee, which the Philips Hue blubs are anyway – I haven't used the Philips app in years. https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/
kamcma 3y ago
Random, but for HomeKit users, I really like a few recent Belkin products: specifically the most recent models of smart plug and smart light switch with Thread radios. Not only do they not require an account, but they don't even have an app. (And can't be used with the existing Belkin Wemo app.) They get firmware updates directly through the Apple Home app.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
surfingdino 3y ago
Philips used to make products I wanted to own. I now make sure I don't allow them them in my life. (Not just Philips, btw.) I wonder why large corporations/brands do not care anymore? Have they become too big to remove them from our lives and do not need to listen to us?
- Fauntleroy 3y ago
  People who do not care about this kind of thing are far more profitable to them than we are.
- hadlock 3y ago
  Philips owns the brand but the product was spun off to a third party company several years ago, who licenses it.
- Rhubi 3y ago
  Philips sold all the bits that made them great. It's a zombie.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jchw 3y ago
Most (almost all?) Philips Hue devices are standard Zigbee devices. Chuck out your Philips gateway and replace it with a Raspberry Pi, Home Assistant and a Zigbee stick. Yeah, it's a bit more work, but if you're reading Hacker News you probably already know how to do this anyways, and honestly, Home Assistant is pretty damn good at staying hands-off. (I only update it every few months, it's on a battery backup in my house so it's basically always on, sometimes I forget it's even there.)
- acidburnNSA 3y ago
  I ordered a Zigbee usb stick right after reading the blog. It came in the mail yesterday. It took me 2 hours to install and configure zigbee2mqtt (I already had mosquitto mqtt server and home assistant installed). As I deleted my HUE and innr bulbs out the HUE app, they started showing up in the zigbee2mqtt panel, and awesomely also right in Home Assistant. I renamed the entities to what they had been before and am fully online without the hue bridge or the huge app. I deleted the hue app right after this and threw the hue bridge in the trash.
- dheera 3y ago
  > standard Zigbee devices One of the issues with these "standard" Zigbee devices is that you can't configure all of their settings. I have a bunch of Aqara motion sensors and I can't set their timeouts or sensitivity unless I use the Aqara app and hub. Used as a normal Zigbee device they offer no configuration options.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    That’s right. I have a significant investment in Hue devices since they are (or were, prior to sale of company) simply the best LED lamps available. The Hue app surfaces functionality that isn’t available on plain zigbee, such as soft on/off and motion sensor programs. It is possible to mimic this to an extent but the native implementation is superior. I also have a lot of different lamps that are either plain Zigbee or IKEA, and no matter the approach - node-red, home assistant, homekit - the “integrated” experience sucks compared to the Hue.
  - 3y ago
waffletower 3y ago
About 10 days ago I was climbing upstairs late headed to bed. I stared at the Hue app on my phone confused. Was Hue really asking me to agree to a new terms of service (ToS) before it would allow me to turn off lights in my own home? Lights that I had purchased outright without Phillips financing more than 8 years ago? Indeed it was. What value as a customer do I get from these hilariously timed, intrusive ToS updates? Better question: what value does the company issuing them gain by alienating existing customers?
- gumballindie 3y ago
  It’s not about the value you get, it’s about the value they get. How is this even legal is beyond me.
  - waffletower 3y ago
    They are losing my value, as I will definitely be more open to competitors and less open to expanding my commitment to their products. A light switch should be dependable and simply work, there should never be a dialogue unless I request one. Imagine toilets with a ToS.
  - ta8645 3y ago
    > How is this even legal is beyond me. It's the same argument as people who say Google should be allowed to censor whoever they want. "They're a private company, they can do whatever they want. Nobody is forcing you to use their services." Clearly, in many areas of life, politics and the legal system needs to be realigned with the modern technological landscape. But so far, it seems most such efforts are pushing things in the exact wrong direction.
    - regularjack 3y ago
      It's not comparable because you paid for bulbs, swithches, bridges etc. You don't pay for Google, at least not in the example you gave.
      - 3y ago
WaitWaitWha 3y ago
Mitigation: If using Zigbee bulbs, 1. get rid of the Philips app (not the bulbs). 2. Replace the Philips Hue bridge (hub) with a RasPi or NUC computer. 3. Connect a Zigbee/Z-Wave combo USB radio dongle. 4. Load Home Assistant OS. This solution not only replaces the Philips locked system, but it can replace (or take over) Amazon, Google, Apple, Ikea and more, simultaneously. About 2551 more. Home Assistant is not perfect, but it provides just the privacy (and features) these vendors are taking away or never gave me. I have Zigbee, Z-Wave, and Wifi devices on Home Assistant (RasPi 4 8GB peaks around 4% utilization). I rarely care about who makes the device nowadays. Is it Zigbee or Z-Wave and cheap? Great, I buy it, and it works. As of this instance, it manages over 100 "devices", from a magnetic door sensor to the Synology NAS drive temperature. ( list of official integrations [because there are many more through community integrations]: https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/#all https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/#all )
- ascagnel_ 3y ago
  > 3. Connect a Zigbee/Z-Wave combo USB radio dongle. Can you recommend a dongle?
  - WaitWaitWha 3y ago
    Yes. I have a Nortek HUSBZB-1 model; got at the end of 2021. Never had to do anything to it. About 44USD now. I chose it through reading community posts and such. One specific recommendation I took to heart was to put it on a USB port extending cable, so it is away from the electronics.
  - dheera 3y ago
    I use a SoundOff USB dongle, works great with HA. I recommend against WiFi Zigbee coordinators, they suck.
  - vardump 3y ago
    Conbee 2 works great, much better range than what the other dongles have. The software bundled with it is also decent and quick to get started with. It got REST API too for external integration. Of course you're free to use any software with it.
gumballindie 3y ago
Why is my lightbulb in need of an online account? That thing goes in the bin.
ahzhou 3y ago
Smart bulbs are a PITA anyways. If you just need on/off/dim (most people) a Lutron Caseta based system is way more reliable and you don't need to worry about unintuitive light switches.
gsuuon 3y ago
Are there any hardware vendors that produce lights meant for operation with open source? How would one go about transitioning to offline-only wireless home automation?
nrvn 3y ago
The older I get the more I de-value "smart" things. I love dumb things. Lightbulb must be dumb. Incandescent lightbulbs were a direct evolution of candles and gas lamps leveraging on simple physical laws and principles. They were not very effective turning most of the energy into heat and LED light bulbs must have been great. But they bring electronics and multiply complexity. I already cannot just simply get a lightbulb. Because I need to take into account several different variables and characteristics of it (temperature, luminous flux, dimmability, trust into lamp lifetime claims and absence of flicker, etc.) And then some clowns bring even more electronics with all this wireless remote-controllable color changing lights. It is like wtf? Give me a simple lamp that will be dirt cheap to replace or will serve me a lifetime without me thinking about its guts. Vote with your wallet. Don't support over-engineering. P.S. Some of the best LED lightbulbs I have were installed in 2012 and they are still working with very small degradation of brightness. Nowadays whenever I need to buy a LED bulb it is like a lottery. Smart IoT light bulbs? Just plain no. As with the rest of the gimmicks.
- ipython 3y ago
  I tend to agree but there are use cases where the smart bulbs have been great for us. 1. Next to our bed we have reading lamp sconces. The sconces we picked out do not have light switches (oops). It turned out to be a blessing in disguise as now the reading lamps automatically switch on in the evening before we come upstairs to bed, then turn off as part of the “good night” scene (which also alarms the security system, etc). If the alarm goes off, the lights automatically switch on to max. 2. Our front porch and rear lights automatically turn on and off with the sunset/sunrise. They also turn onto a flashing red/blue if the alarm is triggered (kind of corny but hey anything to scare off would be intruders) 3. Our kids have smart bulbs in their room lamps. We are able to switch them to a low red colored light as a night light automatically when it’s their bedtime. Most of my lights are “dumb”. The few use cases for smart bulbs are nice though. I use the Nanoleaf essentials through Apple HomeKit so I don’t feel like I’m exposing my personal details to some third party.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Yea, that's mostly where I am on this too. Primary lighting is dumb and controlled by switches. Secondary lighting/mood lighting is smart and has the ability to be color changed and timing controlled. That said, 'smart' systems love to lose connection or their settings and do the wrong thing too frequently.
ben7799 3y ago
I was late to Hue.. I have 4 bulbs in my house I bought within the last year. I never even knew about their app, I've been using Wiz instead. My Phillips lights came with instructions to use Wiz and I didn't even know there was an official Hue app until I saw this today. But I have a Wiz account..
kderbyma 3y ago
Hey Hue....fuck you. I don't need smart bulbs...another fucking Cricut...hey execs ...jump out of the window leave the golden parashute behind...
meeb 3y ago
Fortunately I can relink my lights to a zigbee adapter and remove the hub entirely, but it's significant pointless effort I'd rather not have to do. Thanks Philips or whatever third party subsidiary now makes Hue! I'll now never trust or buy anything from you ever again. If anyone has a setup like mine (a Hue Hub, but also using HomeAssistant) I would suggest firewalling off the Hue Hub from accessing the internet. While the Hue App will stop working your lights shouldn't... for now.
jqpabc123 3y ago
And I thought licensing functionality in cars was a bad idea. BMW learned the hard way that their customers thought so too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2023/09/07/bmw-drops-controversial-heated-seats-subscription-to-refocus-on-software-services/?sh=2ec9642e6d1d https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2023/09/07/bmw... Hopefully Philips will learn the same. In the meantime, I'm making a mental note to avoid their brand all together.
blitz_skull 3y ago
This is sad, but good to know! I will certainly be avoiding Phillips products in the future. There’s no reason to need an account to control a light bulb’s settings. Absolutely ridiculous.
standardUser 3y ago
I have a lot of Hue lights, but I hate the app and hate it even more with this change. Are there alternative apps that work well with the proprietary hardware?
- taw28 3y ago
  You can get a zigbee dongle and control them with home assistant!
- kesslern 3y ago
  You can connect Hue lights to a generic Zigbee connector and control them with Home Assistant.
- imoverclocked 3y ago
  They can be used via Apple HomeKit but I’m not sure about pairing in the first place without the app.
- manicennui 3y ago
  Walking over to the light switch and turning the lights on and off.
- bittercynic 3y ago
  I keep my "Hue Bridge" on a network that can't reach the internet, and it can still control the lights.
- tomkarho 3y ago
  I am using this one currently and it even works faster than the official app: https://github.com/Domi04151309/HomeApp https://github.com/Domi04151309/HomeApp
imoverclocked 3y ago
I’m really really tired of privacy erosion in software and services. Matter seems cool because you can choose a privacy aware home controller but then all the extra bits offered by individual vendors still come into play. Does anyone run multiple networks with all of their smart devices disconnected from the internet via firewall/air gap/etc? Does anything function close to what an average consumer should expect in that scenario?
- rpgwaiter 3y ago
  All of my smart home stuff is Zigbee or z-wave. My "hub" for both is a pi4 running Home Assistant with usb dongles. I couldn't be happier with my setup. No accounts, no phoning home, just my devices and my data. Plus all devices interoperate with each other seamlessly. 10/10 would recommend
blibble 3y ago
how long until a subscription fee is mandatory?
BenFranklin100 3y ago
This is beyond awful. So now this company (which will eventually get hacked) is going to share information with third parties about when people turn their lights on and off. Get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and switch on the light called ‘bathroom’? Hue knows. A detailed record of when you leave for work and arrive home? Hue has it. Go on vacation for two weeks? Hue will be able to infer that too. This is beyond a privacy nightmare. It’s a privacy horror shitshow by a corporation that tricked millions of people to invest in pricey hardware and is now forcing these same users to give up intimate details of their lives to which it can sell to the highest bidder. Don’t bother writing a letter to Signify. Call your congress person. This is a class action lawsuit. Sue these fuckers back into the Stone Age.
t0mas88 3y ago
This will be interesting in Europe. As far as I can tell there is no explicit consent requested for "sharing with partners". It's hidden in their policy, which is not free and informed consent under GDPR. If a consumer objects to sharing their data with partners, Signify won't be allowed to do so. And they can't claim it's a required part of the service since the app has worked for years without any data uploading at all, let alone giving it to their partners.
manicennui 3y ago
At this point I'm really curious to see what more consumers are willing to give up for minor convenience. It would be somewhat humorous if some product categories hadn't been completely destroyed by this bullshit.
philjw 3y ago
I noticed this on my Sonicare Toothbrush already. I expected there would be Home Assistant integrations or Gadgetbridge-like alternatives but no: Creating an account is a must. Instantly returned it for a "non-smart" model
pawelduda 3y ago
I guess you can still "opt out" by getting rid of hue bridge, by replacing it with home assistant + zigbee2mqtt 1) set up homeassistant on rpi 2) get zigbee2mqtt adapter (hue bridge can be used to push sneaky updates to fuck up their bulbs further) 3) backup your rpi 4) bulbs --> zigbee2mqtt --> homeassistant
SCSIfloppy 3y ago
[flagged]

316 points by linker3000 3y ago

I was literally just moving my Hue bulbs off of the Hue bridge and onto Zigbee via Home Assistant. It was really simple and the Zigbee USB dongle was like $30. Lights work great and the Hue bridge is now unplugged.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Not surprising. Philips consumer electronics, or whatever is left of it anyway, is now just a licensing/branding company who earns money for putting their name brand on various Chinese OEM brands, much like consumer electronics from Nokia, Blackberry, Motorola, Braun, Blaupunkt, Grundig, AEG, Tefal, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sharp, NEC, Sanyo, etc.

helsinkiandrew 3y ago
My experience with Hue bulbs and lights is that although they are more expensive, they are of MUCH higher quality - better light intensity and temperature control, longer lasting.
aden1ne 3y ago
Philips lighting is no longer Philips at all. They spun that off to Signify, who holds the brand name for Philips lighting.
snehk 3y ago
I don't think that's true. Signify designs in the Netherlands and they have their own production facilities in various countries.

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

I'm slowly moving control to a Hubitat (https://hubitat.com/ https://hubitat.com/). But still use the Hue hub for the noisy (frequent messages) Hue bulbs. Anyone have any alternatives?

zarker 3y ago
I use Home Assistant. It's open source and there is a huge community around it.
- drcongo 3y ago
  You still need the Hue hub for that though right?
  - zarker 3y ago
    You will need a Zigbee Hub for sure, but it doesn't need to be Philips Hue hub. Folks have used ConBee II or Sonoff Zigbee USB dongle to replace Hue hub. I have used Sonoff Zigbeen to replace Ikea hub, bot haven't got around to replacing Hue hub just yet. It's on my list :-)
    - drcongo 3y ago
      Thanks, I run HomeBridge on a Pi so I might try this if Hue go through with their plan.

andersrs 3y ago

#internetofshit

baal80spam 3y ago
Oh come on - don't you want for all your bulbs to be turned on already _before_ you get back home? It's a gamechanger!
- grubbs 3y ago
  I'd just like mine to turn to a brown hue when any of the bathrooms in my household are occupied.
- vidarh 3y ago
  What is a game changer is to be able to just turn off everything in the house when I leave, and know the iron will be off, along with all the lights. It's not critically important, but the many individually small conveniences add up.
  - amelius 3y ago
    Convenience will destroy the world.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      I highly doubt the ability to turn my lights off over a network will destroy the world. And if you're concerned about internet access, there are plenty of hubs for smart projects that don't need internet access. Some don't even need or have wifi capability, but can be wired physically into a dmz with an open source home automation system like Home Assistant. There are USB dongles with Zigbee support as well that you plug straight into your open source based home automation box if you want. That said: Most people just don't care most of the time, because for most peoples use the worst possible consequence is being slightly inconvenienced. E.g. should my Lightwave RF gateway get bricked, the worst case scenario is that my Lightwave switches revert to being dumb switches and I'll be slightly annoyed I won't be able to voice control them. Hardly world-destroying stuff. What's slightly different here is that this is a new move for Hue (it's not for any number of other smart home providers people happily sign up for online services from), and so some subset of their customers will feel compelled to switch zigbee bridges and incur a cost. (But if you're price sensitive, why the hell are you using Hue in the first place?)

noobermin 3y ago

When colleagues, friends, and students say they are getting into IoT it's becoming hard for me to feign interest or excitement when this is what that industry is moving towards.

vidarh 3y ago
There are plenty of smart home devices that supports reasonably open protocols. This includes Hue devices (Zigbee) The problem tends to be that all of them want to sucker you into using their apps or bridges to tie it all together. It's entirely avoidable, but most users don't know what to look for.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Flashing those devices to more open software (thanks to the fact vast majority is just esp8/32 with some extra electronics) also often requires opening them which is pita.
  - nullwarp 3y ago
    Hue devices require no flashing

skunkworker 3y ago

This is a disappointing if not unexpected update. I currently have a hue bridge for some hue ambiance bulbs but also have control through HA. There have been some needed bulb updates (improving the stability of last color temp and state on power on) but I will soon fully transition over to HA with a zigbee adapter because of stuff like this.

kosmotaur 3y ago
what's HA?
- skunkworker 3y ago
  Home Assistant https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/ It's a quite powerful tool to integrate a variety of different smart home devices into one location and share them between ecosystems. I have a wifi thermostat that requires a dedicated app and does not allow for Apple Home integration. With Home Assistant I installed an integration for that thermostat, then shared it with the Apple Home bridge (also an integration) and quickly was able to allow my iphone/automations etc, to modify the thermostat. And that's only scratching the surface and something that took a few minutes.
ssddanbrown 3y ago
I've just ordered an adapter with the aim to do the same. Hue products have been great due to their quality (often at an extra expense I've deemed worthwhile) and their local-only functionality, but this change indicates it's time to stop buying their products and move things away from their control while it's still possible.

noncoml 3y ago

HP was forcing me to have an account to scan on my printer using their mobile app. I voted with my money and when I needed a printer for my dad I got a Brother.

AmVess 3y ago
It is even worse now. Not only do you need an account, but it won't scan if your ink is empty.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
> I got a Brother. And what's his name? :D Jokes apart, it's doable when people still haven't bought anything, but the frustration that I wish was changed is the change in terms and conditions that affects hardware functioning at a level where it's either you selling your data or you being unable to use the hardware, hardware that could also generate e-waste if thrown away
justinclift 3y ago
Brother is unfortunately playing games with DRM and similar now too. :(
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Bad service drives out good…
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    Always going to be a race to the bottom unless the consumer has rights to repair and modify their own devices. Otherwise products that lean on either ad-based or subscription recurring revenue can always undercut products that don't at retail. Make this shit impractical because anyone can install 3rd party firmware that disables the subscription DRM and the problem will go away.

krisoft 3y ago

I have noticed the announcement of the change too. This materially changes the product for me. I was a happy user so far, and was thinking about buying more bulbs in fact, but not anymore. Is there a way to force the company to return the money I have paid for my bulbs and hub so far? Even if it is arduous and cost me more money than I'm able to gain back I would be inclined to do it to signal my displeasure with this change.

runeks 3y ago
I'm going to RMA my lightbulb if it stops working because I haven't logged in.
dharmab 3y ago
Sue in small claims court?
- krisoft 3y ago
  Possible. But I guess I should maybe wait for the change to actually happen, then send the equipment back to them and ask for a refund, and only sue them if they are not refunding me?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
grumblez 3y ago
Fortunately all of their lights work over a standard Zigbee connection. No need for a Hue Hub or App at all. I was already transitioning my lights from using the Hue Hub/App to directly connecting via Zigbee/HomeAssistant before this was announced.
- krisoft 3y ago
  That is good to know! Thank you very much. I will look in that direction then.
- noamchomsky1 3y ago

zeisch 3y ago

Time and time again It takes just one MBA trying to boost numbers to turn a good product into a data collection nightmare. Honestly is there any IoT brand that we can trust long-term? Maybe IKEA stuff?

brainzap 3y ago
companies are profit first, not trust first
- amelius 3y ago
  Yes, we need more regulation. Or a better system to begin with.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    Do you think its a coincidence this came right after the ban on incandescent bulbs? Regulation got us here. It won't help when government is captured.
    - timeon 3y ago
      > Do you think its a coincidence this came right after the ban on incandescent bulbs? Not really. I do not use incandescent bulbs nor bulbs that require account. You've chosen 216 and you'll find it everywhere in nature.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Yes. This is idiotic theory, Regulation is only about power efficiency
      - friend_and_foe 3y ago
        You must be European.
- solarkraft 3y ago

luxdeillyrii 3y ago

Since the official Android app indeed refused to control my bulbs w/o an account lately, on my new phone, I switched to the HuePro 3rd party app and so far things seem to work fine.

AniseAbyss 3y ago

[dead]

contravariant 3y ago

Is there any official announcement of this? I'd like to know some more details on what they plan to do with the existing API. All I can find is references to something posted on twitter, which I refuse to accept as official communication.

orev 3y ago
If you install the mobile Hue app, it’s right on the main screen.
- yebyen 3y ago
  So if I'm not using the Hue app, am I affected? That's what isn't particularly clear from the post or the comments here. If you're already using their app, is it so onerous to get an account? (I might or might not get an account, the Hue kit is already sitting on my shelf collecting dust, but I was thinking of using Urbit or some other open source project to resurrect it soon... so does this affect us?)
  - orev 3y ago
    My bulbs use Bluetooth or ZigBee, and have never needed the Hue hub or the app, as I’ve used Home Assistant with them the whole time. Currently using the app because I need to rebuild HA, and it doesn’t seem like the change effects the bulbs themselves. However you do need the app to install firmware updates, so that would force the account usage if you wanted to stay up to date.

rpodraza 3y ago

Does anyone know if they can force users to do so in EU? It sounds like it's gonna make the product unusable if not registered, therefore revoking my previous rights to use a product without an account.

jusssi 3y ago
It seems to me that they're about to force the users to hand out personally identifiable information that is not strictly necessary for the product to work (as evidenced by the fact that it did work without for several years). So there should be an opt-out.

amelius 3y ago

We need a no-tether law. If you buy a product you should be able to use it even if you completely break all ties with the original vendor. Otherwise it's a service and not a product.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
Aren't services exempt from sales tax? Passing that law might be a challenge.
- NonNefarious 3y ago
  [dead]
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Not where I live. Can you be more specific? I have never seen a jurisdiction where a sales tax (eg GST or VAT) exempts services. That would be an administrative and enforcement nightmare.
vidarh 3y ago
Pretty much any home automation that supports zigbee or z-wave already provides this for everything except their bridges, though. And that includes Hue. While I'd happily support regulating tethering as well, because it'd certainly make some things easier, with a little bit of thought you can build out home automation where it's all under your control. E.g. stick to zigbee and z-wave devices as the default, and get dumb zigbee and z-wave USB dongles, and connect them to an open source bridge, like Home Assistant, and you've got a good start.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Sure, but the bridge is an important part of the system.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    It is, but it's a small one, typically both in cost and number. E.g. I have 5 led strips, half a dozen smart plugs, about 40 bulbs, and a dozen smart switches, and 5 smart radiator valves/thermostats. Replacing a bridge with Home Assistant and a 10 pound USB dongle isn't the problem if everything else speaks open protocols. As I said, I wouldn't object to requiring untethering ability even for those, but requiring open protocols for the other devices is more important. Most of the above is Zigbee, which is open, but some is Tado and Lightwave, and if they go rogue it'd suck to replace the devices rather than just the hubs.

Escapado 3y ago

Whenever I read something like this I sometimes wonder if there is a viable model for a consumer electronics company which works akin to a non-profit that has irrevocable principles it has to follow where something like this won't happen and where shareholder value, buy outs and angel investors can't force the company to become like that. A company that makes use of open standards and hardware, respects right to repair, user privacy, local/offline first, open sources its hardware and software, works with sustainable ecofriendly materials and processes whereever possible, has a transparent and fair salary structure and open inclusive company culture and won't engage in toxic or anti-competitive behaviour. Now I realise that a lot of those points are not as clear cut and products would probably cost a bunch more but somehow I would prefer that. What do you guys think?

chx 3y ago
Both people who care about these would make a great customer base /s

mrweasel 3y ago

The whole IoT world is a huge mess. A large number of the products are a massive privacy nightmare, security is questionable in interoperability is a pipe dream. I have an old house, where it location of a few switches are just completely illogical. One solution would be to install a few "smart" switches and a relay or two. If I want to stay secure and care the least bit about cost and privacy, there's no choice other than run an open source gateway solution, funnily enough it's also the only solution that will work with almost everything.

petre 3y ago
Zigbee Sonoff relays paired to one of their coordinators flashed with Tasmota. Although if the walls are too thick or tge sistances too high it could pose an issue for 2.4Ghz.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  I have actually looked at Sonoff, but they won't fit into the wall. In order to fit into classic Danish design tradition our wall mounts/boxes are slightly to small to fit anything not specifically design for them. Our switches and socket looks a lot nice than anything I've seen from the US, EU or UK, but they are special little snowflakes. There's an entire cottage industry and hobby scene around making 3D print and modifications to Ikea, Hue and other switches so that they'll look like "the real thing".
  - petre 3y ago
    Even the mini modules? Maybe put them in the wall dose above the switch? Shellys are even larger. Sonoff seems to put out more miniaturized models every year. https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/zbmini-l2/ https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/zbmini-l2/ Yes, I saw Danish appliances, they look nice.
yomlica8 3y ago
Just get some of the many RF controlled switches available on amazon. Many of them you don't even need to do any wiring to use them.

scopeh 3y ago

ffs, who is thinking of this shit. personally i don't own any and now i certainly won't. Smart homes are a great example of a good idea with a shitty implementation.

MrDresden 3y ago

Since I don't see it mentioned here I would like to suggest z-wave (protocol) and the accompanying ecosystem as an alternative. I have multiple lights, power plugs and sensors operating on z-wave being controlled by Home Assistant. None of these require me to log into a third party app or service.

orev 3y ago
ZigBee is the open protocol that most people should try to prefer to support open standards. But both Zwave and ZigBee are local-only, so either one is better than something that can call home on the internet.
_ea1k 3y ago
I've noticed a lot of z-wave adopters seem to be shifting towards zigbee. I guess because it is closer to thread and matter? Some devices seem to be upgradeable for that too.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

guitarlimeo 3y ago

This is frustrating. I have invested a lot in the Hue ecosystem and have also recommended it to my friends based on the facts that you don't need an account to control it, it integrates easily with HA, and you can block it from the internet. Now after one announcement it's something I want to get rid of fast and am ashamed of recommending it to my friends. I already block my Hue Bridge from accessing the internet, so that should keep it from updating so that the functionality stays the same. Does anyone have any good app recommendations for Android? I use HA, but last time I checked you weren't able to configure the actual Hue scenes in it (and using HA scenes triggered Hue's spam limits).

acidburnNSA 3y ago
I can recommend this: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ You can keep your Hue bulbs and devices but threw away the app, hub, and need to work with hue as an institution at all. I got a $30 USB zigbee stick to replace the hub. works great!
ender341341 3y ago
you basically need to recreate the scenes in home assistant and use the hue bridge as as dumb of a bridge as you can. There should be little to no things that home assistant scenes can't do that hue scenes can. I'll still probably recommend hue light bulbs with the caveat that I don't recommend their bridge/app, compared to the other bulbs I've used they are much more reliable and handle color changes much more smoothly & consistently.
- bigstrat2003 3y ago
  I haven't used anything but Hue, but I've been looking to get off them because they're so unreliable. Like clockwork, one or two bulbs go bad every year and will still be dimly lit even when "off", or worse still they will start flickering constantly when "off". It's kind of depressing if something with such poor quality is the most reliable option out there. :(
  - altec3 3y ago

poszlem 3y ago

In the Polish comedy film "Miś" ("Teddy Bear"), released in 1981, there is a famous line: "We don't have your coat, what are you going to do about it?" This line is uttered in a cloakroom scene. In the scene, the protagonist Ryszard Ochódzki goes to a cloakroom to retrieve his coat. He hands over his ticket to the attendants. They search but claim they can't find his coat. Ochódzki becomes agitated but the attendants are nonchalant. The scene satirizes inefficiency and lack of accountability in bureaucratic systems. Hue's "take it or leave it" answers ("Believe us, this change can only benefit the users, when it comes to security.") about their recent changes feel kinda the same. The message seems to be, "We're changing this and what are you going to do about it?" It's scary how a movie about life in communist Poland can still feel relevant when dealing with companies today.

pizzaknife 3y ago
Brazil is the other end of that spectrum; the intro scene where an embedded bureaucrat loses their, ahem, proverbial shit over a fly and the physical altercation with said fly (literal insect: fly) impacts a printing of "state assault/guilty citizen targets," the result being a chain of events that would have otherwise never taken place. great movie.
brezelgoring 3y ago
Maybe one day we'll speak about these silos and systems the same way we speak about the communist bureaucracies of old. Minus the crimes against humanity and all. Perhaps centralization is the problem? I can't help but think all those people in crypto that said "we buy into the protocol, not the coin!" were onto something after all.

poisonborz 3y ago

The big question is at which level this auth is enforced: - official Hue apps - who cares - hue bridge - bad, would break apps like HuePro and would force more complicated setup for some - bulb - unlikely, that would mean everyone buying this for IoT lighting can throw out their whole set

Semaphor 3y ago
> - bulb - unlikely, that would mean everyone buying this for IoT lighting can throw out their whole set Not throw out, just don’t upgrade the firmware again and not buy new ones that might have the broken firmware.
classichasclass 3y ago
My Hue lights have never been connected to the Internet, so they'll never have to worry about this. I use my own Perl client: https://www.floodgap.com/software/huepl/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/huepl/ I might not buy another base station again, though, if this gets enforced at that level.
iteratethis 3y ago
My guess would be in the app. Enforcing it at the bridge level would break so many setups, apps, custom integrations that even if they try this, they'll dial it back from the avalanche of outrage.

throwaway290 3y ago

And 2 years later, if some words in your account username or description age badly, your house will go dark forever.

pizzaknife 3y ago
oh do share those choice words
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
- throwaway290 3y ago
  That would require knowing the future?

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Imagine having to create an account to use a lightbulb. It's all gone too far.

trey-jones 3y ago
Yes. When you take a step back and consider this exact statement, it's utter insanity.
- sunnybeetroot 3y ago
  It reminds me of the transition of dumb phones where we would transfer files to one another using direct Bluetooth. Then the era of cloud storage came and you would upload to the cloud to transfer to someone next to you. Then we reinvented sending to the device next to you with things like AirDrop and Nearby Share but alas they’re not interoperable.

lousken 3y ago

The app allows me to skip the login/create account step (at least in central europe). I also asked local support about this and they told me it should not require account in the future, unless I want to use philips secure

orev 3y ago
The message they have added to the app clearly says that the situation has changed.

Simulacra 3y ago

Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of having to sign up for a service or account just to use the product that you paid for?

dmead 3y ago
This is a well established trend. I dropped razer when they tried to get me to login to something to use my fucking mouse.
- iteratethis 3y ago
  But why? Are you not interested in our weekly 4GB driver update? Even more ways to blink the lights now.

bananapub 3y ago

well, that sucks a lot. Phillips had made an excellent product - reasonably priced, reliable as lights and network-wise, compatible with Homekit, with their random app, with Home Assistant, and now apparently they want to make it worse.

horns4lyfe 3y ago

Cool, I’m done with them. Was a good product, no more.

orev 3y ago

For any app that does this, go to the App Store and give them a one-star rating and a comment on why you’re doing this. In this case, they have a canned copy/paste answer saying that it’s for “security”, so feel free to try to debunk that in your initial comment.

beached_whale 3y ago
lol, the homekit provides said security.
local_crmdgeon 3y ago
As someone that used to run a big app - this is effective. Upper management really cares about ratings/reviews/comments
meeb 3y ago
Just left my first ever review just to voice my annoyance at this forced and pointless change.
tivert 3y ago
> For any app that does this, go to the App Store and give them a one-star rating and a comment on why you’re doing this. Also leave a 1-star review on Amazon. It's totally fair: if they can "update" their product, I can update my opinion of it. Unfortunately for me (now), I bought all my Hue stuff at local stores because it was more convenient than Amazon.
fullstop 3y ago
I did this when they excluded other Zigbee lights from the hub, even though they had previously worked. They backed down on that, and maybe they will with this as well. With that being said, I'm done with Hue.

peterbraden 3y ago

Does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement bridge that works with home assistant? It seems I’ll be throwing out the hue bridge and never buying a phillips product again.

splitrocket 3y ago
As of right now, you can connect to hue devices directly with Zigbee. The SkyConnect from HomeAssitant/Nabu Casa works quite well: https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect/ https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect/
rtomanek 3y ago
Hardware: https://phoscon.de/en/conbee2/ https://phoscon.de/en/conbee2/ Software (you may or may not need it for HA): https://github.com/dresden-elektronik/deconz-rest-plugin https://github.com/dresden-elektronik/deconz-rest-plugin
369548684892826 3y ago
Hue isn't really a Phillips product. Signify is the company you want to avoid.
- Lio 3y ago
  That might be strictly true but the blowback from this is me avoiding Philips products from now on. They should use their influence with Signify to get them to take a long term view. Right now I regret buying more expensive "Philips" light bulbs, sync boxes and other hardware. I'm pissed off that I bought one product and they've retrospectively changed the terms of usage.

oxfordmale 3y ago

SeeYouLaterAlligator12345678@gmail.com coming up. The more companies force this the less valuable data they get out of it. Sure you can email me, I am just opening the account once a month to keep it active.

stronglikedan 3y ago
Soon they'll require monthly 2FA to use their products. Ya know, for your protection!
dieselgate 3y ago
opening an account once/month is still quite a lot really. without payment automation i can barely keep up with bills

basisword 3y ago

For iOS/Apple users just use the bulbs through the Home app. I don’t think I’ve used the Hue app in at least a couple of years since configuring that. Fuck Phillips. Won’t be buying any more of their products.

heyoni 3y ago
Do we know for a fact that it'll keep working after the change? Are there any homekit devices that require you to log in to a separate app? If so, then the change doesn't affect me very much.
EduardoBautista 3y ago
I don’t think you can have dynamic lighting that slowly changes the color of the lights with just the Home app.
- AdamGibbins 3y ago
  You can, Homekit call it "Adaptive Lighting". It's not as flexible though, you just turn it on and Apple does what it wants - there's no variables you can fiddle with if you don't like what its doing.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - EduardoBautista 3y ago
    I believe "Adaptive Lighting" is the light changing throughout the day. Dynamic lighting from Hue changes color slowly over seconds.

devmor 3y ago

This is extremely annoying. I invested in the Hue ecosystem specifically because it was one of the few that did not require an account and allowed me to keep all of my devices offline and isolated on a local network with no internet traffic. I will not be purchasing any more of their products and will do my best to extract a refund for the hundreds of dollars I've spent on them so far.

neilv 3y ago

"What's the worst that could happen, if we let MBA-types take over engineering?" "Even your home's light bulbs will require an Internet-connected computer account that spies on you."

rchaud 3y ago
Nice try, but this is the IoT wet dream pioneered by Nest Labs and a ton of other grizzled ex-SV hardware engineers.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Those engineers have been MBA-types in developer clothing for over 2 decades now. The engineer as hacker hasn't been anywhere close to leadership roles for quite a while. Perhaps ever since the 90s. I don't see a passion for computing and hacking with such people, just for making money and VCs. That's why the end product doesn't even matter to them.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Yeah, no true scotsman, I mean no true software developer, would ever do anything like that. Except Google, Meta and the like do exist.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      That's neither here, nor there. I didn't say they're not engineers or developers. I said they're not engineers/developers in the old hacker sense. They don't have a passion for computing and for making something, but for the money and VC schemes. If you think Google and Meta is run with a passion for computing and hacking in mind, and that their products and actions reflect that, then I have a bridge to sell you.
_ea1k 3y ago
Don't forget highly locked down garage doors that are readily accessible by major merchants. And also pair easily with similarly locked down in garage cameras.

tivert 3y ago

> Philips Hue will soon force users to create a Hue account and sign in to continue to use the app and control the smart lights. The best security model to protect smart devices is to keep them disconnected from the internet, or at least keep this option available. Does this just apply to the phone app, or to the base station as well? IIRC, the base station has a REST API and there are 3rd party apps that can control it (but I haven't touched my Hue light setup in about 5 years, and don't really use any of the smart features anymore).

falsenapkin 3y ago
That API is junk and I think requires auth now or something. I was messing with it some months ago and was surprised after a month the system changed.
- hrpnk 3y ago
  https://developers.meethue.com/develop/get-started-2/ https://developers.meethue.com/develop/get-started-2/ explains how to get the key to use the API. You just need to press the button on the bridge. Sth. broke for me so I wrote a loop and pressed the button frantically until one of the API calls worked: for i in `seq 1 10`; do http -v 192.168.xxx.xxx/api devicetype="my_hue_app#script"; sleep 1; done

inquirerGeneral 3y ago

[dead]

noja 3y ago

This will lose them their HomeKit certification.

ThouYS 3y ago

hahaha, can't say I fee sorry for their customers

karaterobot 3y ago

I'm surprised they didn't already require this, but I think it's probably safe to say it was a likely and foreseeable outcome in any case. That, combined with a dearth of use cases that made sense (for my life) is what's kept me from using these products. About the only reason I could think of to buy smart lightbulbs would be to suddenly turn all the lights in the house red, and yell "torpedoes in the water, brace for impact!" and that doesn't seem like a strong enough argument. I'd probably only do this 2-3 times a month anyway.

acidburnNSA 3y ago
Use cases that I personally like: * Turn existing lights into timed night lights that turn on at a configurable brightness when I pass certain motions sensors and then turn off after a timeout (cool/useful when I'm wandering around house at night) * Similar: Turn existing light fixtures into motion activated on switches (useful for dark staircase) * Turn lights on in morning and evening when I'm traveling to make it look like the place is occupied if I'm traveling * Party mode: cool colors shifting in cool ways in the rare event there's a party * Gradually go from bright white light to softer light as the day goes on in the office, and then stay soft at night to help with sleep * Turn on in a sequence when people are detected close by outside in the middle of the night to try to scare them off * Turn a certain color to indicate something being off, like a server offline, water detected, etc.
rchaud 3y ago
These products are mostly targeted at the the Youtuber/streamer market that need to add variety to their backdrops.
- danielbln 3y ago
  No they're not.
- menacingly 3y ago
  This is not in any way the case
- coldtea 3y ago

FredPret 3y ago

And next you'll have a subscription to indoor lighting. What can be turned into a subscription next! I can't wait to find out. Maybe I'll become a survivalist who builds his own lightbulbs, computers, etc. Once I figure the off-grid lifestyle out, maybe I can launch a paid newsletter about it...

failuser 3y ago
You have a subscription for the indoor lighting through the electricity bill already. It’s more pay-as-you go though.
andyjohnson0 3y ago
You have already turned your lights on 80 times in the last 30 day period. To continue turning on your lights, please visit our website to upgrade to one of our premium packages with enhanced light-cycle options. In the meantime, your home lighting will stay in enhanced darkness mode for your comfourt and convenience. Thank you, and have a nice day.
- npongratz 3y ago
  Your health and safety is our number one priority.
mikewarot 3y ago
>What can be turned into a subscription next! I can't wait to find out. On a whim, I googled and found this "Smart" toilet[1] [1] https://www.kohler.com/en/products/toilets/shop-toilets/numi-2-0-one-piece-elongated-smart-toilet-dual-flush-30754-pa https://www.kohler.com/en/products/toilets/shop-toilets/numi...

pizzaknife 3y ago

UBIK. read it.

GuB-42 3y ago
What's the link between a story about psychic power and the nature of reality and the need to create an account to control light bulbs?
- pizzaknife 3y ago
  company trade secrets/pay per use. Book had an ancillary gripe about "nickle and diming" (americanism, think "death by 1000 financial papercuts). A subtext to the entire engagement is that everything is implicitly rented. Here's a non-spoiler quote which (if i recall the book correctly) occurs within the first chapter: “The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. " ^ That door, was "the main character's front door" IoT. edit: grammar

arp242 3y ago

When I bought my no-brand coloured smartlight a few years ago I explicitly passed up on Philips Hue because it now seemed to require some smartphone app, and I just wanted to use a remote control. It's simpler to use, faster to use, has a lot less moving parts, and generally "always works". While there are some use cases where an app might be a bit more convenient, I'm willing to bet that if you asked people on the street that the majority would prefer to use just a remote (I admit I have no data to back this up). Security and privacy concerns don't even come in to play (although these do make the apps even worse) This is a shame, because I had good experiences with my old Hue, when they still did remotes.

rpadovani 3y ago
They still do switches, what remotes are you referring to?
- postmodest 3y ago
  Probably color control?
- sp332 3y ago
  Like this https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hue-Installation-Free-Exclusively-562777/dp/B08W8GLPD5 https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hue-Installation-Free-Exclusi...
  - arp242 3y ago
    Yeah, but with the ability to change the colour as well, and stuff like that. i.e. basically do everything you can, except without an app. Something like this: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1bweoSVXXXXbHXFXXq6xXFXXXG/New-Original-Remote-HRC0302-10-313922856561-LED-Color-Light-bloom-Living-Colors-AMBIENCE-For-Philips-Light.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1bweoSVXXXXbHXFXXq6xXFXXXG/New... Maybe I missed it, but from the material that was available to me without actually buying one of these things, this seemed impossible: the boxes and stores didn't have any remotes, and I couldn't find anything on the website. If it is possible, then it's hidden pretty well and people are steered towards that app pretty strongly.

beefman 3y ago

The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please." He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you." "I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt." In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. "You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt's money-gulping door. "I'll sue you," the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, "I've never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it. – Philip K. Dick, Ubik (1969) https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to-open-it-said-five-cents-please https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to...

otachack 3y ago
You should also cite when "Ubik" was published as it's fascinating: 1969!
MaxBarraclough 3y ago
Reminds me of The Right to Read, a short story by Richard Stallman. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
moffkalast 3y ago
Drink a verification can to continue.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

j45 3y ago

The cloud is always someone else's computer. The cloud, and the internet always costs someone, somewhere, money that they ultimately wont' want to keep paying for free. Since this means you will have to pay, it doesn't hurt to look at self hosting if you make it as far as using smart home tech that has a temporarily free cloud.

_dain_ 3y ago

black mirror episode: evilcorp turns off the lights until you install their app, but you can't find your phone in the dark

dmead 3y ago

Oh weird. I was soon planning 5o throw out my 300 bucks worth of hue hardware

pier25 3y ago

Happened to me with some Kasa Smart devices I had owned for years. One day to be able to use the app I needed to create an account. A couple of months later the same thing happend with a Mi Band smart watch. The app required to create an account. Personally I won't be buying any smart devices ever again.

BrianHenryIE 3y ago
Use Zigbee, which the Philips Hue blubs are anyway – I haven't used the Philips app in years. https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/

kamcma 3y ago

Random, but for HomeKit users, I really like a few recent Belkin products: specifically the most recent models of smart plug and smart light switch with Thread radios. Not only do they not require an account, but they don't even have an app. (And can't be used with the existing Belkin Wemo app.) They get firmware updates directly through the Apple Home app.

deleted 3y ago

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surfingdino 3y ago

Philips used to make products I wanted to own. I now make sure I don't allow them them in my life. (Not just Philips, btw.) I wonder why large corporations/brands do not care anymore? Have they become too big to remove them from our lives and do not need to listen to us?

Fauntleroy 3y ago
People who do not care about this kind of thing are far more profitable to them than we are.
hadlock 3y ago
Philips owns the brand but the product was spun off to a third party company several years ago, who licenses it.
Rhubi 3y ago
Philips sold all the bits that made them great. It's a zombie.
deleted 3y ago
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jchw 3y ago

Most (almost all?) Philips Hue devices are standard Zigbee devices. Chuck out your Philips gateway and replace it with a Raspberry Pi, Home Assistant and a Zigbee stick. Yeah, it's a bit more work, but if you're reading Hacker News you probably already know how to do this anyways, and honestly, Home Assistant is pretty damn good at staying hands-off. (I only update it every few months, it's on a battery backup in my house so it's basically always on, sometimes I forget it's even there.)

acidburnNSA 3y ago
I ordered a Zigbee usb stick right after reading the blog. It came in the mail yesterday. It took me 2 hours to install and configure zigbee2mqtt (I already had mosquitto mqtt server and home assistant installed). As I deleted my HUE and innr bulbs out the HUE app, they started showing up in the zigbee2mqtt panel, and awesomely also right in Home Assistant. I renamed the entities to what they had been before and am fully online without the hue bridge or the huge app. I deleted the hue app right after this and threw the hue bridge in the trash.
dheera 3y ago
> standard Zigbee devices One of the issues with these "standard" Zigbee devices is that you can't configure all of their settings. I have a bunch of Aqara motion sensors and I can't set their timeouts or sensitivity unless I use the Aqara app and hub. Used as a normal Zigbee device they offer no configuration options.
- mdekkers 3y ago
  That’s right. I have a significant investment in Hue devices since they are (or were, prior to sale of company) simply the best LED lamps available. The Hue app surfaces functionality that isn’t available on plain zigbee, such as soft on/off and motion sensor programs. It is possible to mimic this to an extent but the native implementation is superior. I also have a lot of different lamps that are either plain Zigbee or IKEA, and no matter the approach - node-red, home assistant, homekit - the “integrated” experience sucks compared to the Hue.
- 3y ago

waffletower 3y ago

About 10 days ago I was climbing upstairs late headed to bed. I stared at the Hue app on my phone confused. Was Hue really asking me to agree to a new terms of service (ToS) before it would allow me to turn off lights in my own home? Lights that I had purchased outright without Phillips financing more than 8 years ago? Indeed it was. What value as a customer do I get from these hilariously timed, intrusive ToS updates? Better question: what value does the company issuing them gain by alienating existing customers?

gumballindie 3y ago
It’s not about the value you get, it’s about the value they get. How is this even legal is beyond me.
- waffletower 3y ago
  They are losing my value, as I will definitely be more open to competitors and less open to expanding my commitment to their products. A light switch should be dependable and simply work, there should never be a dialogue unless I request one. Imagine toilets with a ToS.
- ta8645 3y ago
  > How is this even legal is beyond me. It's the same argument as people who say Google should be allowed to censor whoever they want. "They're a private company, they can do whatever they want. Nobody is forcing you to use their services." Clearly, in many areas of life, politics and the legal system needs to be realigned with the modern technological landscape. But so far, it seems most such efforts are pushing things in the exact wrong direction.
  - regularjack 3y ago
    It's not comparable because you paid for bulbs, swithches, bridges etc. You don't pay for Google, at least not in the example you gave.
    - 3y ago

WaitWaitWha 3y ago

Mitigation: If using Zigbee bulbs, 1. get rid of the Philips app (not the bulbs). 2. Replace the Philips Hue bridge (hub) with a RasPi or NUC computer. 3. Connect a Zigbee/Z-Wave combo USB radio dongle. 4. Load Home Assistant OS. This solution not only replaces the Philips locked system, but it can replace (or take over) Amazon, Google, Apple, Ikea and more, simultaneously. About 2551 more. Home Assistant is not perfect, but it provides just the privacy (and features) these vendors are taking away or never gave me. I have Zigbee, Z-Wave, and Wifi devices on Home Assistant (RasPi 4 8GB peaks around 4% utilization). I rarely care about who makes the device nowadays. Is it Zigbee or Z-Wave and cheap? Great, I buy it, and it works. As of this instance, it manages over 100 "devices", from a magnetic door sensor to the Synology NAS drive temperature. ( list of official integrations [because there are many more through community integrations]: https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/#all https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/#all )

ascagnel_ 3y ago
> 3. Connect a Zigbee/Z-Wave combo USB radio dongle. Can you recommend a dongle?
- WaitWaitWha 3y ago
  Yes. I have a Nortek HUSBZB-1 model; got at the end of 2021. Never had to do anything to it. About 44USD now. I chose it through reading community posts and such. One specific recommendation I took to heart was to put it on a USB port extending cable, so it is away from the electronics.
- dheera 3y ago
  I use a SoundOff USB dongle, works great with HA. I recommend against WiFi Zigbee coordinators, they suck.
- vardump 3y ago
  Conbee 2 works great, much better range than what the other dongles have. The software bundled with it is also decent and quick to get started with. It got REST API too for external integration. Of course you're free to use any software with it.

gumballindie 3y ago

Why is my lightbulb in need of an online account? That thing goes in the bin.

ahzhou 3y ago

Smart bulbs are a PITA anyways. If you just need on/off/dim (most people) a Lutron Caseta based system is way more reliable and you don't need to worry about unintuitive light switches.

gsuuon 3y ago

Are there any hardware vendors that produce lights meant for operation with open source? How would one go about transitioning to offline-only wireless home automation?

nrvn 3y ago

The older I get the more I de-value "smart" things. I love dumb things. Lightbulb must be dumb. Incandescent lightbulbs were a direct evolution of candles and gas lamps leveraging on simple physical laws and principles. They were not very effective turning most of the energy into heat and LED light bulbs must have been great. But they bring electronics and multiply complexity. I already cannot just simply get a lightbulb. Because I need to take into account several different variables and characteristics of it (temperature, luminous flux, dimmability, trust into lamp lifetime claims and absence of flicker, etc.) And then some clowns bring even more electronics with all this wireless remote-controllable color changing lights. It is like wtf? Give me a simple lamp that will be dirt cheap to replace or will serve me a lifetime without me thinking about its guts. Vote with your wallet. Don't support over-engineering. P.S. Some of the best LED lightbulbs I have were installed in 2012 and they are still working with very small degradation of brightness. Nowadays whenever I need to buy a LED bulb it is like a lottery. Smart IoT light bulbs? Just plain no. As with the rest of the gimmicks.

ipython 3y ago
I tend to agree but there are use cases where the smart bulbs have been great for us. 1. Next to our bed we have reading lamp sconces. The sconces we picked out do not have light switches (oops). It turned out to be a blessing in disguise as now the reading lamps automatically switch on in the evening before we come upstairs to bed, then turn off as part of the “good night” scene (which also alarms the security system, etc). If the alarm goes off, the lights automatically switch on to max. 2. Our front porch and rear lights automatically turn on and off with the sunset/sunrise. They also turn onto a flashing red/blue if the alarm is triggered (kind of corny but hey anything to scare off would be intruders) 3. Our kids have smart bulbs in their room lamps. We are able to switch them to a low red colored light as a night light automatically when it’s their bedtime. Most of my lights are “dumb”. The few use cases for smart bulbs are nice though. I use the Nanoleaf essentials through Apple HomeKit so I don’t feel like I’m exposing my personal details to some third party.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Yea, that's mostly where I am on this too. Primary lighting is dumb and controlled by switches. Secondary lighting/mood lighting is smart and has the ability to be color changed and timing controlled. That said, 'smart' systems love to lose connection or their settings and do the wrong thing too frequently.

ben7799 3y ago

I was late to Hue.. I have 4 bulbs in my house I bought within the last year. I never even knew about their app, I've been using Wiz instead. My Phillips lights came with instructions to use Wiz and I didn't even know there was an official Hue app until I saw this today. But I have a Wiz account..

kderbyma 3y ago

Hey Hue....fuck you. I don't need smart bulbs...another fucking Cricut...hey execs ...jump out of the window leave the golden parashute behind...

meeb 3y ago

Fortunately I can relink my lights to a zigbee adapter and remove the hub entirely, but it's significant pointless effort I'd rather not have to do. Thanks Philips or whatever third party subsidiary now makes Hue! I'll now never trust or buy anything from you ever again. If anyone has a setup like mine (a Hue Hub, but also using HomeAssistant) I would suggest firewalling off the Hue Hub from accessing the internet. While the Hue App will stop working your lights shouldn't... for now.

jqpabc123 3y ago

And I thought licensing functionality in cars was a bad idea. BMW learned the hard way that their customers thought so too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2023/09/07/bmw-drops-controversial-heated-seats-subscription-to-refocus-on-software-services/?sh=2ec9642e6d1d https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2023/09/07/bmw... Hopefully Philips will learn the same. In the meantime, I'm making a mental note to avoid their brand all together.

blitz_skull 3y ago

This is sad, but good to know! I will certainly be avoiding Phillips products in the future. There’s no reason to need an account to control a light bulb’s settings. Absolutely ridiculous.

standardUser 3y ago

I have a lot of Hue lights, but I hate the app and hate it even more with this change. Are there alternative apps that work well with the proprietary hardware?

taw28 3y ago
You can get a zigbee dongle and control them with home assistant!
kesslern 3y ago
You can connect Hue lights to a generic Zigbee connector and control them with Home Assistant.
imoverclocked 3y ago
They can be used via Apple HomeKit but I’m not sure about pairing in the first place without the app.
manicennui 3y ago
Walking over to the light switch and turning the lights on and off.
bittercynic 3y ago
I keep my "Hue Bridge" on a network that can't reach the internet, and it can still control the lights.
tomkarho 3y ago
I am using this one currently and it even works faster than the official app: https://github.com/Domi04151309/HomeApp https://github.com/Domi04151309/HomeApp

imoverclocked 3y ago

I’m really really tired of privacy erosion in software and services. Matter seems cool because you can choose a privacy aware home controller but then all the extra bits offered by individual vendors still come into play. Does anyone run multiple networks with all of their smart devices disconnected from the internet via firewall/air gap/etc? Does anything function close to what an average consumer should expect in that scenario?

rpgwaiter 3y ago
All of my smart home stuff is Zigbee or z-wave. My "hub" for both is a pi4 running Home Assistant with usb dongles. I couldn't be happier with my setup. No accounts, no phoning home, just my devices and my data. Plus all devices interoperate with each other seamlessly. 10/10 would recommend

blibble 3y ago

how long until a subscription fee is mandatory?

BenFranklin100 3y ago

This is beyond awful. So now this company (which will eventually get hacked) is going to share information with third parties about when people turn their lights on and off. Get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and switch on the light called ‘bathroom’? Hue knows. A detailed record of when you leave for work and arrive home? Hue has it. Go on vacation for two weeks? Hue will be able to infer that too. This is beyond a privacy nightmare. It’s a privacy horror shitshow by a corporation that tricked millions of people to invest in pricey hardware and is now forcing these same users to give up intimate details of their lives to which it can sell to the highest bidder. Don’t bother writing a letter to Signify. Call your congress person. This is a class action lawsuit. Sue these fuckers back into the Stone Age.

t0mas88 3y ago

This will be interesting in Europe. As far as I can tell there is no explicit consent requested for "sharing with partners". It's hidden in their policy, which is not free and informed consent under GDPR. If a consumer objects to sharing their data with partners, Signify won't be allowed to do so. And they can't claim it's a required part of the service since the app has worked for years without any data uploading at all, let alone giving it to their partners.

manicennui 3y ago

At this point I'm really curious to see what more consumers are willing to give up for minor convenience. It would be somewhat humorous if some product categories hadn't been completely destroyed by this bullshit.

philjw 3y ago

I noticed this on my Sonicare Toothbrush already. I expected there would be Home Assistant integrations or Gadgetbridge-like alternatives but no: Creating an account is a must. Instantly returned it for a "non-smart" model

pawelduda 3y ago

I guess you can still "opt out" by getting rid of hue bridge, by replacing it with home assistant + zigbee2mqtt 1) set up homeassistant on rpi 2) get zigbee2mqtt adapter (hue bridge can be used to push sneaky updates to fuck up their bulbs further) 3) backup your rpi 4) bulbs --> zigbee2mqtt --> homeassistant

SCSIfloppy 3y ago

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