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Thought this Oppenheimer anecdote may amuse the HN contingent. "Oppenheimer obtained his Doctor of Philosophy degree in March 1927 at age 23, supervised by Max

Thought this Oppenheimer anecdote may amuse the HN contingent. "Oppenheimer obtained his Doctor of Philosophy degree in March 1927 at age 23, supervised by Max Born.[28][29] After the oral exam, James Franck, the professor administering, reportedly said, "I'm glad that's over. He was on the point of questioning me."[30] " Franck had won the Nobel two years earlier. Sources: [Refs] quoted directly from Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer [30] from Wikipedia: https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,853367-4,00.html https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,853... --> p.4

NooneAtAll3 3y ago
I keep making this mistake. I almost asked "why philosophy, didn't he study physics?" That does make me wonder: why DOES the qualification/position/status name mention only philosophy?
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  I don't ask questions, I just use mine for what it's worth!: Not much and decreasing by the day. (Also not in math)
- lmm 3y ago
  Philosophy used to include all of science, up until "Natural Philosophy" got big enough to separate out on its own.
- puzzledobserver 3y ago
  The term philosophy is used in the original Greek sense, "love of knowledge". As opposed to, Wikipedia tells me: theology, medicine and law. I guess it also has something to do with philosophy in the early sense of the word, before natural philosophy branched off and became what we today call the sciences.
- liamwire 3y ago
  Partially, it’s tradition at this point, but it’s also worth pointing out that a PhD isn’t the only doctorate, see e.g. DBA, EdD, JD, MD, etc.
  - jvvw 3y ago
    And some universities still award a DPhil rather than a PhD (in the UK I believe Oxford and Sussex do - I have an Oxford DPhil and I always have the very mild quandary of whether to call it a PhD or DPhil - everybody knows what the former is and it is equivalent, but I feel like I am being inaccurate if I call it that!)
- tantalor 3y ago
  The "philosophy" in PhD refers to philosophy/wisdom in general (philos=love, sophia=wisdom) not the specific academic discipline.
- wahern 3y ago
  What we today call science was once called natural philosophy. Philosophy was simply the systematic study of the world, including physics, logic, and math, as opposed to theology or learning an applied professional trade such as medicine, law, or architecture. The terms we use to differentiate fields of study are still shifting. Nobody uses the term "naturalist" anymore, at least not to refer to a scholarly field. There's often a huge overlap between math and various other fields. I'm not sure the recent explosion in degree names is any better than using Ph.D. It's tempting to suggest that fields like Art History and English Literature should be differentiated from [modern] Physics, but ideally scholars in all those fields should be (and often are) using many of the same analytical techniques. And realistically, I doubt usage of a shared signifier, Ph.D, is causing any consequential confusion. Arguably, as specialization increases the value of using Ph.D increases--it general implies someone has attained the highest credential in their field of study, whatever the field.
- engineer_22 3y ago
  Early in the tradition of thinking, practitioners of thinking were called philosophers. In those times there was no distinction between the physics of the world and of the mind, physics and metaphysics were one in the same. As philosophy evolved, new branches became distinct, mathematics, physics, and later chemistry and others. The basis of all of these branches of the sciences owe their place to the work done by the early thinkers who established the ways of knowing. It is in the method of knowing that the highest degree in academic sciences is a Doctor of Philosophy. By obtaining the degree you have proven you are capable of establishing "knowing". Which is to say, you can reason.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > Which is to say, you can reason. I find this sentence a very concise phrasing for how I appreciate those with a degree vs. those without. I personally do not have a degree, but I far prefer working with people who do - simply because I can trust that they can reason.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  Philosophy is the study of everything that is not well understood or is difficult to understand, even the study of study itself. A good way to think of it is, "philosophy exists only in the gaps", the gaps in our understanding. What is the nature of matter, can you take clay and keep dividing it in half and in half? When we didn't know the answer, only speculated about it, it was philosophy. Now that we know the answer, it's physics. But unknown answers in physics are still considered philosophy, such as whether or what would it mean if time can run backward. This implies philosophy and philosophers will disappear once we know everything, which could by some be considered one of the rewards of this quest for truth. BTW, many institutions today offer the ScD degree, doctor of science; it is generally equivalent to a PhD, though in some places it can be considered "higher"
- p-e-w 3y ago
  Because academics love to cling to outdated and today factually incorrect terminology, while arrogantly berating the general public when they do the same. "Actually, it's not called the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis anymore. The preferred term is 'linguistic relativity' now." ... while you keep using titles that have been nonsensical for 200 years. Got it. Academia is 99% power games. The emperor wears no clothes.
  - TRiG_Ireland 3y ago
    The preferred term for the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis is "uninformed nonsense mostly due to Whorf which really shouldn't have Sapir's name attached to it".
- thsksbd 3y ago
  PhD is a license to teach (i.e. doctor) philosophy. Specifically, in "science" fields, natural philosophy. Natural philosophy was the original (and i think better) name for science, especially physics. It was understood to be an important subbranch of philosophy. I think its better name because it elucidates an important epistemological difference: science is a method, not knowledge. I learn science when I learn about experimental design. Im not learning science when I learn about evolution; rather Im learning a theory, very likely to be true, that is almost impossible to put under scrutiny using the scientific method. The Pythagorean theorem has no science and is 100% true. In fluids, Bernoulli devised experiments to demonstrate to his calculus illiterate colleagues what he had already mathematically proven. Science is a bad term.
  - irrational 3y ago
    Apparently it is also a license for your brother in law to brag about having a PhD in economics, despite not being able to hold a job for more than 2 years and currently working as a manager at a pest control company after being laid off from his last job.
    - netrus 3y ago
      I can imagine that many great academics might have difficulties 'holding a job'. A PhD is certainly something to be proud of, just as running a marathon, raising a great child or having a great corporate career.
    - auggierose 3y ago
      This is hilarious. Whereas I have to say, when holding a job means doing what other people want you to do, well, which person of high intelligence would be interested in that?
  - Nevermark 3y ago
    Physics was also philosophy for eons in that theories were on par with hard knowledge about the gods and mermaids. Most early physic had surprisingly little explanatory or experimental connection to the actual physical world. But it often made up for that with a solid grounding in popular mythology and the produce of some extraordinary imaginations. You know, like philosophy!
- thristian 3y ago
  In the medieval university system, there were four fields of knowledge: medicine (MD), law (Juris Doctor, or JD), theology (ThD), or philosophy (PhD). In the centuries since, new kinds of knowledge were discovered, but they generally got squeezed in as sub-categories of philosophy, so when you specialise in them, you get a PhD.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  He took the doctorate degree in Europe. He gained a PhD in Physics. "Doctor of Philosophy" (PhD): a doctorate in just about any subject except law or medicine. "Doctor of Letters" (D.Lit.): a doctorate in Law. "Doctor of Medicine" (D.Med.): a doctorate in medicine.
- posix86 3y ago
  Philosophy literally means the love to knowledge, and was (in some way still is) the father/mother of all subjects we today call science. Before "sub-genres" like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Biology were large enough to warrant their own subjects, they were all just part of philosophy. Today, we speak of philosophy if we mean topics that are not part of these subjects, altough I feel a fair argument could be made that they could be still considered part of philosophy. The name just is something left of that time.
turndown 3y ago
My favorite? When Von Neumann(an Austrian aristocrat) walked into his oral exam, Hilbert asked another of the admistrators who his tailor was.
- sampo 3y ago
  > Von Neumann(an Austrian aristocrat) Usually Von Neumann is thought to be Hungarian. Born in Budapest, which at the time was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
  - throw_pm23 3y ago
    Also not really an aristocrat, more like an upper-middle class banker's family. The "von ..." was more of a faux title, although his family did have an honorary nobility title (a different one) received a few decades before.
    - picadores 3y ago
      In europe -every upstart family, at some point tried to get the "von und zu","van", "de" only exemption from this is the english aristocracy.. were you glue a "lord" or "lady" in front of the name, instead of a addition bewetween name and surname.
  - diegoeche 3y ago
    Born János Neumann
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ralfd 3y ago
Other reference to Oppenheimer: James Franck, who had emigrated to the US, advocated to not use the Atomic bomb against Japan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report
mijoharas 3y ago
So, one of my favourite stories is Witggenstein's Phd viva. He submitted the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus as his PhD thesis. Apparently on the way into his viva he said to Bertrand Russel "Don't worry, I know you'll never understand it.".[0] He passed with flying colours. (Note: I tried to google and didn't find a primary source, but post saying the same thing I remembered, so possible citation needed here) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910633
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  I have tried to read the Tractatus a couple of times and whiffed majorly. I think Wittgestein foresaw Powerpoint culture and created a (the only?) major philosophical work[0] consisting of just bullet points. [0] True, I didn't understand it but it clearly has had an impact!

NooneAtAll3 3y ago

I keep making this mistake. I almost asked "why philosophy, didn't he study physics?" That does make me wonder: why DOES the qualification/position/status name mention only philosophy?

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
I don't ask questions, I just use mine for what it's worth!: Not much and decreasing by the day. (Also not in math)
lmm 3y ago
Philosophy used to include all of science, up until "Natural Philosophy" got big enough to separate out on its own.
puzzledobserver 3y ago
The term philosophy is used in the original Greek sense, "love of knowledge". As opposed to, Wikipedia tells me: theology, medicine and law. I guess it also has something to do with philosophy in the early sense of the word, before natural philosophy branched off and became what we today call the sciences.
liamwire 3y ago
Partially, it’s tradition at this point, but it’s also worth pointing out that a PhD isn’t the only doctorate, see e.g. DBA, EdD, JD, MD, etc.
- jvvw 3y ago
  And some universities still award a DPhil rather than a PhD (in the UK I believe Oxford and Sussex do - I have an Oxford DPhil and I always have the very mild quandary of whether to call it a PhD or DPhil - everybody knows what the former is and it is equivalent, but I feel like I am being inaccurate if I call it that!)
tantalor 3y ago
The "philosophy" in PhD refers to philosophy/wisdom in general (philos=love, sophia=wisdom) not the specific academic discipline.
wahern 3y ago
What we today call science was once called natural philosophy. Philosophy was simply the systematic study of the world, including physics, logic, and math, as opposed to theology or learning an applied professional trade such as medicine, law, or architecture. The terms we use to differentiate fields of study are still shifting. Nobody uses the term "naturalist" anymore, at least not to refer to a scholarly field. There's often a huge overlap between math and various other fields. I'm not sure the recent explosion in degree names is any better than using Ph.D. It's tempting to suggest that fields like Art History and English Literature should be differentiated from [modern] Physics, but ideally scholars in all those fields should be (and often are) using many of the same analytical techniques. And realistically, I doubt usage of a shared signifier, Ph.D, is causing any consequential confusion. Arguably, as specialization increases the value of using Ph.D increases--it general implies someone has attained the highest credential in their field of study, whatever the field.
engineer_22 3y ago
Early in the tradition of thinking, practitioners of thinking were called philosophers. In those times there was no distinction between the physics of the world and of the mind, physics and metaphysics were one in the same. As philosophy evolved, new branches became distinct, mathematics, physics, and later chemistry and others. The basis of all of these branches of the sciences owe their place to the work done by the early thinkers who established the ways of knowing. It is in the method of knowing that the highest degree in academic sciences is a Doctor of Philosophy. By obtaining the degree you have proven you are capable of establishing "knowing". Which is to say, you can reason.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  > Which is to say, you can reason. I find this sentence a very concise phrasing for how I appreciate those with a degree vs. those without. I personally do not have a degree, but I far prefer working with people who do - simply because I can trust that they can reason.
fsckboy 3y ago
Philosophy is the study of everything that is not well understood or is difficult to understand, even the study of study itself. A good way to think of it is, "philosophy exists only in the gaps", the gaps in our understanding. What is the nature of matter, can you take clay and keep dividing it in half and in half? When we didn't know the answer, only speculated about it, it was philosophy. Now that we know the answer, it's physics. But unknown answers in physics are still considered philosophy, such as whether or what would it mean if time can run backward. This implies philosophy and philosophers will disappear once we know everything, which could by some be considered one of the rewards of this quest for truth. BTW, many institutions today offer the ScD degree, doctor of science; it is generally equivalent to a PhD, though in some places it can be considered "higher"
p-e-w 3y ago
Because academics love to cling to outdated and today factually incorrect terminology, while arrogantly berating the general public when they do the same. "Actually, it's not called the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis anymore. The preferred term is 'linguistic relativity' now." ... while you keep using titles that have been nonsensical for 200 years. Got it. Academia is 99% power games. The emperor wears no clothes.
- TRiG_Ireland 3y ago
  The preferred term for the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis is "uninformed nonsense mostly due to Whorf which really shouldn't have Sapir's name attached to it".
thsksbd 3y ago
PhD is a license to teach (i.e. doctor) philosophy. Specifically, in "science" fields, natural philosophy. Natural philosophy was the original (and i think better) name for science, especially physics. It was understood to be an important subbranch of philosophy. I think its better name because it elucidates an important epistemological difference: science is a method, not knowledge. I learn science when I learn about experimental design. Im not learning science when I learn about evolution; rather Im learning a theory, very likely to be true, that is almost impossible to put under scrutiny using the scientific method. The Pythagorean theorem has no science and is 100% true. In fluids, Bernoulli devised experiments to demonstrate to his calculus illiterate colleagues what he had already mathematically proven. Science is a bad term.
- irrational 3y ago
  Apparently it is also a license for your brother in law to brag about having a PhD in economics, despite not being able to hold a job for more than 2 years and currently working as a manager at a pest control company after being laid off from his last job.
  - netrus 3y ago
    I can imagine that many great academics might have difficulties 'holding a job'. A PhD is certainly something to be proud of, just as running a marathon, raising a great child or having a great corporate career.
  - auggierose 3y ago
    This is hilarious. Whereas I have to say, when holding a job means doing what other people want you to do, well, which person of high intelligence would be interested in that?
- Nevermark 3y ago
  Physics was also philosophy for eons in that theories were on par with hard knowledge about the gods and mermaids. Most early physic had surprisingly little explanatory or experimental connection to the actual physical world. But it often made up for that with a solid grounding in popular mythology and the produce of some extraordinary imaginations. You know, like philosophy!
thristian 3y ago
In the medieval university system, there were four fields of knowledge: medicine (MD), law (Juris Doctor, or JD), theology (ThD), or philosophy (PhD). In the centuries since, new kinds of knowledge were discovered, but they generally got squeezed in as sub-categories of philosophy, so when you specialise in them, you get a PhD.
denton-scratch 3y ago
He took the doctorate degree in Europe. He gained a PhD in Physics. "Doctor of Philosophy" (PhD): a doctorate in just about any subject except law or medicine. "Doctor of Letters" (D.Lit.): a doctorate in Law. "Doctor of Medicine" (D.Med.): a doctorate in medicine.
posix86 3y ago
Philosophy literally means the love to knowledge, and was (in some way still is) the father/mother of all subjects we today call science. Before "sub-genres" like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Biology were large enough to warrant their own subjects, they were all just part of philosophy. Today, we speak of philosophy if we mean topics that are not part of these subjects, altough I feel a fair argument could be made that they could be still considered part of philosophy. The name just is something left of that time.

turndown 3y ago

My favorite? When Von Neumann(an Austrian aristocrat) walked into his oral exam, Hilbert asked another of the admistrators who his tailor was.

sampo 3y ago
> Von Neumann(an Austrian aristocrat) Usually Von Neumann is thought to be Hungarian. Born in Budapest, which at the time was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
- throw_pm23 3y ago
  Also not really an aristocrat, more like an upper-middle class banker's family. The "von ..." was more of a faux title, although his family did have an honorary nobility title (a different one) received a few decades before.
  - picadores 3y ago
    In europe -every upstart family, at some point tried to get the "von und zu","van", "de" only exemption from this is the english aristocracy.. were you glue a "lord" or "lady" in front of the name, instead of a addition bewetween name and surname.
- diegoeche 3y ago
  Born János Neumann
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ralfd 3y ago

Other reference to Oppenheimer: James Franck, who had emigrated to the US, advocated to not use the Atomic bomb against Japan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Report

mijoharas 3y ago

So, one of my favourite stories is Witggenstein's Phd viva. He submitted the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus as his PhD thesis. Apparently on the way into his viva he said to Bertrand Russel "Don't worry, I know you'll never understand it.".[0] He passed with flying colours. (Note: I tried to google and didn't find a primary source, but post saying the same thing I remembered, so possible citation needed here) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910633

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
I have tried to read the Tractatus a couple of times and whiffed majorly. I think Wittgestein foresaw Powerpoint culture and created a (the only?) major philosophical work[0] consisting of just bullet points. [0] True, I didn't understand it but it clearly has had an impact!