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OpenTF is now OpenTofu
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- creatonez 3y agoAt the time of posting, this submission links directly to the OpenTofu Github organization, which does not say anything about the name change. Here are some links that are specifically about the name change: - https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues/296 https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues/296 - https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/20/terraform-fork-gets-a-new-name-opentofu-and-joins-linux-foundation/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/20/terraform-fork-gets-a-new-... - https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/20/terraform_fork_opentf_opentofu/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/20/terraform_fork_opentf...
- qwertox 3y agoFrom the last link: "The name OpenTofu was adopted out of concern for, as you might have already guessed, trademark litigation." Because Hashicorp might not like the "TF" (for Terraform).
- Uehreka 3y agoOut of curiosity, how does OpenJDK not get sued into fine pulp over this? Oracle owns the Java trademark and aren’t exactly known for being kind in matters of litigation.
- input_sh 3y agoOpenJDK is also trademarked by Oracle[0], they're not gonna sue themselves. [0] https://openjdk.org/legal/openjdk-trademark-notice.html https://openjdk.org/legal/openjdk-trademark-notice.html
- blackoil 3y agoYou may not want to bet on that. It is the Oracle.
- hashhar 3y agoOpenJDK is now the open-part of the JDK which multiple groups provide builds and customizations for. What I think you are talking about when you say OpenJDK is called Adoptium now (https://adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html https://adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html). Earlier called Adopt OpenJDK. Similarly Eclipse folks named their project Temurin and so on.
- stolsvik 3y agoThose are the same: https://adoptium.net/ https://adoptium.net/ “Eclipse Temurin is the name of the OpenJDK distribution from Adoptium.”
- SenHeng 3y agoI had originally thought the project to be font related, ie. the Open Type Font. Not saying it’s clearer now but at least it doesn’t remind me of OTF anymore.
- leoxiong 3y agoYeah, I thought it was something to do with the Noto fonts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noto_fonts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noto_fonts
- ghughes 3y agoOkay, it's kinda cute, but it's not good.
- amelius 3y agoIt's even less originally named than tofu itself.
- lost_tourist 3y agoI mean most names weren't all that sexy originally either.
- watwut 3y agoKind of makes sense, it made OpenTF made me think of OpenTheFuck ... which is not ideal.
- grafelic 3y ago-
- notpushkin 3y agoI think with OpenTofu it's a weaker association, given tofu is an actual word many people already know. (Edit: added a bit of context as parent comment suggesting you can interpret the new name as open to fuck was removed)
- plufz 3y agoI was seriously expecting some sort of open sourced tools for making tofu. As a vegetarian that likes to cook I was a little disappointed, but this sounds good as well.
- Mashimo 3y agoI thought of OpenTTD. Transport Tycoon Deluxe
- rrrrgrs 3y agoIts related to fact they are joining linux foundation today as well :)
- rrrrgrs 3y agohttps://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/announcing-opentofu https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/announcing-opentofu
- theherk 3y agoI think it is a distinguished name, that will be nice to type and easily recognizable.
- cube2222 3y agoHey! Interim tech lead of OpenTofu here. I'd like to add that as of today (announced just now at OSS Bilbao) we're officially part of the Linux Foundation[0]! Hope you like the new name (it basically won the votes anywhere it was proposed) and happy to answer any questions! [0]: https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/announcing-opentofu https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/announcing-opentofu
- notpushkin 3y agoCute punny name, I like it. Congrats on joining the LF, and keep up the good work!
- notpushkin 3y agoBy the way, are there any plans for taking on other HashiCorp products as well? (Packer and Nomad are of particular interest to me :-)
- echelon 3y agoThe dismantling of HashiCorp because they tried to save themselves from Amazon swallowing them is sad. Open Source businesses have no future in a world where big tech can gulp your product for free. The OpenTofu folks will probably even raise capital to support commercialization of their thing at some point.
- tacticus 3y ago> The dismantling of HashiCorp because they tried to save themselves from Amazon swallowing them is sad. save themselves from others building a less shit version of terraform cloud.
- benterix 3y agoThis will happen anyway; what they could do is to gain some time, that's all. But long-term consequences will be serious, I'm not sure if it was worth it.
- headphoneswater 3y ago[dead]
- _cenw 3y agoOh, it's meatless terraform.
- fishnchips 3y agoWholesome and sustainable :)
- toyg 3y agoAbsorbs juices much better.
- petesergeant 3y agoTerraform but without the beef over licensing
- timeon 3y agoNot necessarily. There are people who use tofu as substitute for mushrooms. So I've seen it mixed with meat.
- PebblesHD 3y agoI really like the new name and branding. Very cohesive, easy to pronounce, website looks good (and the benefits of this cannot be overstated). Hopefully the community can grow around it. Well done and good luck keeping up the momentum.
- msoad 3y agoUnrelated but cute too: in the Unicode world tofu is when systems can't render a character and you get a square (tofu)
- vr46 3y agoThis is too woke for the UK government. Terraform is widely used in the Home Office, I don't think Suella Braverman will approve a switch... (Reference for non-UK viewers: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/oct/18/suella-braverman-blames-guardian-reading-tofu-eating-wokerati-for-disruptive-protests-video https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2022/oct/18/suell...)
- Black616Angel 3y agoI like the "The Guardian" banner on top of that headline. Also lol.
- lost_tourist 3y agowokerati is a term I've never heard before, hmmmm
- quickthrower2 3y agoWat. Satire can’t compete
- fishnchips 3y agoBoJo legacy lives on!
- xg15 3y agoI mean. Whatever else, but you have to give her props for inventing the word "wokerati". That word sounds so ridiculous that it might become cool again.
- vr46 3y agoIt sounds like Hai Karate Perjorative labels aren't what they used to be, people are happy to be labelled most of the time, so yes, maybe it'll be cool to be a, erm, "wokerat"?
- yyyk 3y agoThe new branding is recognizable, cute and short. However, Tofu has a somewhat mixed reputation. I guess OpenTofu can stand on its own though.
- malermeister 3y agoSo does terraforming, fwiw.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoIs terraforming even a thing outside of the realm of SF? I can't say I've ever seen it depicted as anything but positive, since it's taking unlivable planets and making them livable.
- fishnchips 3y agoI think this [0] may be what the OP meant. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transform...
- viraptor 3y agoOr the global warming. In a few years we'll be able to say that's deliberate if we continue.
- simbolit 3y agoIn relative terms, co2 emissions have gone up >50% since Kyoto; in absolute terms, we have emitted more co2 since Kyoto than in all of history before. I'd argue your "in a few years" was like 2018 or 2019 or so.
- serf 3y agothere are countless SF examples where terraforming is used against the protagonist group in some negative manner; some alien race begins some scheme to turn the planet hotter/colder/acidic/whatever and has to be stopped by some hero. as far as being a thing outside of SF, there are lots of studies on the idea of being able to do it in one way or another to both the moon and Mars, with real life validation efforts here on Earth -- but no real practical efforts as far as I know. p.s. the reason I avoid mentioning our efforts here on Earth changing the climate being akin to terraforming is that I think that intentionality is really the defining feature of terraforming that differentiates it from pollution or abuse otherwise.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- macca321 3y agoIt'd be very interesting to know Hashi's internal strategy around this. - Maybe do nothing, and as long as OpenTofu doesn't attempt to extend Terraform they are in not that different a position than pre-MPL. - Add so many features OpenTofu can't keep up? - Add some sneaky code to latest versions of hashi providers which makes them not work with unofficial terraform binaries?
- danw1979 3y ago- You can imagine a situation where Tofu keeps TF DSL compatibility but add useful new features to the runtime (better plan summary, multiple stack deployment, chained deployments, etc). That’s going to put Hashicorp under pressure to move quicker.. - … but Hashicorp publicly pleaded poverty over their development resource on TF as the reason they wouldn’t accept community PRs. You can’t just grow a team tenfold overnight. They’ve been quite deliberate about the design of the Terraform language and runtime over the years, taking their time to add new features. It’s going to be interesting ! - The provider situation looks fairly safe to me. Those licenses didn’t change and you can always redirect to github releases for the really popular binaries ?
- fishnchips 3y ago> multiple stack deployment, chained deployments Intriguing ideas. Would you mind elaborating or - even better - open issues [0] explaining the concepts to gauge the community interest? [0] https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues
- verdverm 3y agoWell, I guess this is more motivation to leave HCL and anything related to TF... tofu? Poor naming choice imho, searching is going to be a terrible time, wonder how confused the ChatGPTs will get? I'm allergic to soy and derivatives like tofu, so not liking this name change A CUE powered solution will be much better anyway, go straight to the APIs for definitions, no intermediate, yet still unique, (leaky) abstractions
- throwawayllaq 3y agoModern search engines and LLMs have no trouble distinguishing between different things with the same name. Google Trends will even show you something is a product, a service, a book, whatever. If you ask a LLM "what is this tofu infrastructure as code tool I keep hearing about?" it will 100% tell you about the tool and not the food.
- verdverm 3y agonothing is 100% with LLMs, except that they will make things up at some point Search is also struggling more and more each day to surface the actually relevant results. It's part of why people are reaching to LLMs for things they used to search.
- jen20 3y ago> go straight to the APIs for definitions Do you really think no-one has tried that? The API definitions (even the good ones, like Azure) do not contain sufficient information to be able to build a declarative tool. Google seem to view their internal annotations about what is mutable or not as some kind of competitive advantage (bizarre). The AWS API is wildly poorly specified for building anything except 1-1 API wrappers. (Cloud Control improves it, but covers few important resources).
- verdverm 3y agoEverything has gaps that need to be filled, the main point is that the object I send is the same shape and schema as the API, same for their responses and the data in the system. TF under the hood is using these APIs through an abstraction. I say "go to the APIs" as (1) bypassing abstractions (2) in CUE, we can import the existing TF resource schemas from the Go types, or from the OpenAPI schemas. There are 2 camps in CUE about how to approach the CUE/TF/Helm/k8s intersection (one for each way) CUE actually offers a really great space to enrich the APIs with the needed information.
- Mashimo 3y agoThe link and github does not tell much what OpenTofu is. So I opened the official website. Again very hard to find out what it actually is. Goals and why it was created, and a hundred times that it's a fork of another product. But still does not explain what it is or does. I had to open the website of what it was forked from.
- po9 3y agoDoesn't the heading say 'The open source infrastructure as code tool' on loading https://opentofu.org/ https://opentofu.org/ ?
- simbolit 3y agoYeah, but what is 'infrastructure as code'? For anyone not already in the know, this phrase doesn't mean "managing and provisioning data centers through machine-readable definition files, rather than physical hardware configuration or interactive configuration tools." (quote from Wikipedia), it just means nothing at all.
- alkz 3y agoYeah, but what is a 'computer'? For anyone not already in the know, this term doesn't mean "a machine that can be programmed to carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations (computation) automatically." (quote from Wikipedia), it just means nothing at all.
- simbolit 3y agoYou funny. Edit: I don't want to sound dismissive, so let me explain the difference. Anyone coming to the website will be using a computer of some kind, and even if they for some weird reason don't, the verb "compute" does give a hint at what a computer might be. None of this is true for "infrastructure-as-code".
- lillecarl 3y ago
- xigangxi 3y agoOne thing I really miss on the landing page of the website is the "Getting Started"
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bilalq 3y agoWhat are OpenTofu's plans around CDKTF? Will that only work with HashiCorp TF going forward? Or will that be forked as well? Terraform is a better foundational layer than CloudFormation, but CDK is by far the better level of abstraction, I believe. AWS CDK is decent, but it is of course limited to AWS. CDKTF was one of the more interesting initiatives in this space.
- fishnchips 3y agoShould work out of the box TBH, IIRC the CDK works as a preprocessor.
- bilalq 3y agoFor now. But the fork will likely diverge over time, right? I suspect this will cause issues unless compatibility is an explicit goal.
- fishnchips 3y agoCorrect, we will want OpenTF to remain a drop-in replacement.
- paulddraper 3y agoCDKTF is wonderful. Stop struggling with HCL files, there is a solution.
- candiddevmike 3y agoTerraform CDK is still MPL.
- bilalq 3y agoEven if the license is unchanged, will it interop with OpenTofu? Will interop with CDKTF be an explicit goal of the project?
- 3y ago
- totetsu 3y agoI always have the problem when I open tofu that the brine squirts out everywhere. Anyone got a technique to avoid this?
- cnunciato 3y agoPierce the cover with a knife and cut along the edges, then remove the goods through the flap. Works for us. :)
- lantry 3y agoand do it over the sink
- candiddevmike 3y agoFreeze it first? Keeps it firmer too in my experience
- reilly3000 3y agoTry baked tofu. It’s just so tasty and usually comes with much less brine.
- sverhagen 3y ago>We urge HashiCorp to reconsider and switch Terraform back to an open source license, avoiding fragmentation of the community. Hasn't that ship sailed? Even if Hashicorp did that, would the community still be willing to mend this breakup, or declare that trust was lost?
- cube2222 3y agoThanks for noticing, we need to update the org description.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoAs a total outsider, what's wrong with "TF"? Doesn't a penis picture as a github symbol rather bother anyone?
- throwawayllaq 3y agoIt's more practical and less hilarious. There is a thing called acronym, abbreviation, or initialism copyright. For Hashicorp's Terraform, "TF" is a well recognized abbreviation. Hashicorp can't prohibit anyone from using "TF" in all areas, but it can argue that "OpenTF" confuses users that expect anything "TF" to mean "Terraform". You can probably create a "OpenTF juice maker" without problem but OpenTofu especifically is in the same area as Hashicorp's Terraform, so it's better to avoid any trouble there.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoI see, thanks.
- hk__2 3y agoThis name confuses me as I usually expect things named "OpenFoobar" to be open versions of "Foobar" (see: OpenJDK, OpenTTD), but here that’s not the case.
- paulddraper 3y agoOpensearch
- hk__2 3y ago> Opensearch In that case it’s quite obvious that "search" is not a product, and so this should be an open-source search engine.
- sausagefeet 3y ago"Terraform" is trademarked and cannot be used without permission and "TF" is kind of on the edge, so it was decided to change it more to avoid any legal challenges.
- ricc 3y agoIt seems the license info is not readily available on the website. I can easily find it in the GitHub repo but not on the website. I think it would be nice to have it clearly visible on the website, too.
- totallywrong 3y agoGreat initiative, and I'm sure that with the community's stewardship this will become a better tool than TF ever was. Me personally, I'm happy about the licence change because it pushed me to Pulumi and I'm absolutely loving it, which I could never say about TF, quite the opposite.
- minroot 3y agoSlightly disappointed, I felt hungry reading the name
- da39a3ee 3y agoThe criticism of hashicorp seems childish. Why shouldn't they restrict the way in which companies make money from their inventions as they see fit? There's a lot of thoughtless entitlement among some of the attitudes being expressed in this debate.
- fishnchips 3y agoI think at this point we exhausted arguments on both sides of the debate. I think that agreeing to disagree and moving on is a better alternative to competing on ad hominems.
- verdverm 3y agoIt's easy to say that when it is not your work others are making money on Just "moving on" is like putting your head in the sand to avoid difficult conversations about financially sustainable open source (which requires an amount of unopen-source if we're going to be honest with ourselves). Donations and charity don't put food on the table for those building the projects. We have not figured this out as a society, so we should keep talking and debating
- fishnchips 3y agoMany of these discussions seem to devolve into calling names, throwing ad hominems or even darker stuff like threats of symbolic or physical violence. Being on the receiving end of all that in relation to the fork makes me wish we can indeed move on and resume the conversation when the tempers cool down.
- throwawayllaq 3y agoThis discussion ship has sailed.
- da39a3ee 3y agoDon't try to silence people. If you have nothing substantive to say then say nothing.
- isilofi 3y agoAre there any official statements about the cloud vendors' support or non-support for OpenTofu?
- fishnchips 3y agoBigger players naturally take longer to reach decisions for projects that are not their own, so it's only natural to see some caution on their end. It would be premature to announce anything at this point but I can just say that "good things come to those who wait".
- psibi 3y agoIs OpenTofu also planning to maintain the language server (terraform-ls) or is that not within the scope ? I was not able to find any language server related repository.
- MrOwen 3y agoThe language server is still MPL licensed. Not sure if that's slated for a change but I'm sure they can always fork if/when that happens.
- cloudbrewer 3y agoI believe Dave McJannet, HashiCorp's CEO, should be concerned. OpenTofu has garnered massive support, with the project gaining admission to the Linux Foundation and even receiving public support from companies like Allianz. Within HashiCorp, the CEO has fostered a toxic culture characterized by a large workforce that strives to do as little as possible, relying solely on the dedication of a few committed employees, many of whom left the company shortly after the IPO. The pricing "strategy," the culture of secrecy, subpar commercial and marketing practices, and the company's inability to formulate a successful cloud and monetization strategy are all squarely the responsibility of HashiCorp's CEO. Merely changing the licensing approach will not resolve the current issues. There is an urgent need for a change in leadership, a more robust embrace of the community, and the addressing of the issue of lazy employees. HashiCorp should also return to its core principles, possibly trimming down its focus areas (Integrity, Kindness, Pragmatism, Humility, Vision, Execution, Communication, etc.). Terraform had the greatest potential for monetization within HashiCorp, but this required innovation and effort. They possessed all the necessary tools, brand recognition, and community support, but instead chose to impede competition, failing to realize that they were harming themselves in the process. OpenTofu has the potential to genuinely enhance Terraform, as changes will be viewed not as aiding competitors but as a shared initiative aimed at improving the entire community and sharing the benefits.
- lijok 3y ago> Within HashiCorp, the CEO has fostered a toxic culture That is a serious accusation. What backup do you have for this statement?
- cloudbrewer 3y agoThere are numerous public and private sources to gather information. One of the public sources is to read Glassdoor reviews.
- figmert 3y ago> OpenTofu has garnered massive support, with the project gaining admission to the Linux Foundation and even receiving public support from companies like Allianz. I don't know. It feels like this support comes from the vocal minority and competitors. I'll believe such a statement when more big multinational companies show support. Right now, I don't believe there is as much support as is currently made out.
- zaps 3y agoInstead of the food my 12 year old mind goes directly to “Open to eff you”
- newfie_bullet 3y agoI thought the same thing - and I think it kind of applies! haha
- issafram 3y ago[flagged]
- bshacklett 3y agoIt's a cute name, but as a consultant, I don't think this is going to help me convince technology leaders to adopt this project over Terraform.
- bhouston 3y agoI think one needs to see if there are bug fixes and it keeps up with the evolution of technology over time.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y agoWell no, the selling point is the license not the name
- bshacklett 3y agoTo what audience? For someone in a leadership position who is responsible for running their organization, optics are very important, and a silly name can hurt. We're already talking about a fork by a lesser-known organization with no track record. The silly name doesn't help.
- altairprime 3y ago“You won’t have to financially support the project in order to benefit from it” is the usual selling point. Corporations will overlook a cute name if it’s free, relative to another product. If your corporation(s) don’t resell service deriving from Terraform, then there’s no financial reason to switch, since they’re not subject to the licensing risk — at which point it doesn’t matter what the name of the project is, either. It’s still possible to make an argument to switch based on “community exodus from the commercially-supported variant”, which is at least more likely to be of interest to a classical C-corp than “ethical duty to open source”, but if opentofu contributions can be mixed into existing terraform, then that might not stand up well either. If the corporation makes a decision solely based on (for example) hostility to vegetarians, then the name will be relevant — but that’s an outcome that is too irrational to account for.
- reilly3000 3y agoThat there is a pretty brilliant way out of a scary trademark situation. Props to the braintrust that made it so.
- gigapotential 3y agoWhat was the trademark situation?
- x86x87 3y agoIt was called OpenTF or OpenTerraform. Hashicorp might have had an issue with using the name Terraform.
- lolinder 3y agoIt was never called OpenTerraform, they knew enough to avoid that as an obvious trademark problem. It sounds like after consulting with lawyers they determined even OpenTF was too close [0]. [0] https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues/273#issuecomment-1706947318 https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/issues/273#issuecomment...
- jovezhong 3y agobun, now tofu. I got hungry.
- oneplane 3y agoIndeed. While I don't "like" the name just yet, it's already pretty recognisable yet not "Terraform"-ish in branding. I suppose that's also a bit of a downside since Terraform is such a brilliant name for the thing that it does. We pretty much talk in terms of "let's terraform a new environment" at places where we use it.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoI swear this is the exact name of a Minecraft mod, but its either disappeared from the internet or I am hallucinating it. It also makes me think if Fujitsu's interconnect for their crazy HPC ARM chips (PDF warning): https://www.fujitsu.com/global/documents/about/resources/publications/fstj/archives/vol48-3/paper05.pdf https://www.fujitsu.com/global/documents/about/resources/pub...
- Proven 3y ago[dead]
- solarkraft 3y agoLove the branding! I predict that it will be commonly known as "Tofu", which is a wonderfully snappy name. Almost too good for this kind of project.
- paulddraper 3y agoThought it was a kinda silly name, but then again....I don't blink twice at "Java"
- yuppie_scum 3y agoWho eats tofu with a fork?
- benatkin 3y agoMe, sometimes! Also, this video comes to mind as it involves a fork and tofu: https://youtu.be/Q71sg8bLh6E?si=T2teojYiURJ5KcQ8 https://youtu.be/Q71sg8bLh6E?si=T2teojYiURJ5KcQ8
- nbittich 3y ago"a soy-based dev product"