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Masked 'boot girls' are freeing booted cars in Atlanta
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y agoI often wondered how boots are even legal, particularly when used on private lots. Like, they just took control of your property. If that's ok, would the same principle allow them to take your wallet and put it in a safe until you paid a fine?
- paulgb 3y agoWhat is “excessive booting” in this context? IIUC here in NYC, booting is usually a response to thousands of dollars in unpaid fines (unpaid fines are public record here, so you can even look them up.) I realize it's always an unpopular opinion to be pro-parking-enforcement, but to be honest, I'm always glad to see a car booted. Some people think they have a god-given right to leave their car wherever is convenient to them, it's nice to see at least some of them face consequences.
- filoleg 3y agoAbout 8 years ago in Atlanta, I got booted on my first offence, by overstaying in the nearly empty parking lot in midtown by 15 mins (I paid for the hour of parking before that, but the restaurant took their time with the checks). I think "first time offense of being late on your parking by 15 mins - you get a boot" is pretty excessive. Don't get me wrong, I am totally in favor of parking enforcement, and wouldnt have even been that upset to take the hit and pay the fine. Instead, I had to both pay the fine and wait an hour in that parking lot until someone (working for the boot company) came to unlock the boot on my car (and i was lucky they weren't busy that night).
- reneherse 3y agoThe same thing happened to a colleague of mine in ATL just a month or so ago, so it seems the practice is longstanding and current. Note that it's private parking companies, not municipal agencies, doing the booting.
- pj_mukh 3y agoI think the problem here is the state (or city) offloading its basic enforcement functions to private corporations. And then most worryingly financially incentivizing over enforcement. This also happens with excessive towing [1] The city should have these folks on payroll instead of constantly contracting this stuff out. Yes, even on private property because it’s adjudication between two private properties (the car and the parking lot) [1] https://youtu.be/cs6u0iExry8?si=HQdJts_liwCP1_tV https://youtu.be/cs6u0iExry8?si=HQdJts_liwCP1_tV
- phendrenad2 3y agoHow would it be any different if the city applied the boots themselves? That sounds like an entirely orthogonal issue.
- pj_mukh 3y agoBecause city workers aren’t paid more to boot/tow more cars while private companies are. If the profit motive could be aligned with actual progress, somehow objectively measurable then contracting might makes sense.
- acdha 3y agoI’d add greater oversight, too: you can’t FOIA the internal policies or records of a private company, and if there’s some policy change you have to rebid or do a painful contract amendment. I think the appeal to privatization is sometimes corruption – when we lived in New Haven, at least two of the city’s tow contracts always went to cousins of council members – but mostly it’s the hope that magic pixie dust will avoid the need for competent oversight. As you noted that only works out when the incentives align, and I don’t see that here.
- wayfinder 3y agoI think cities do this because it’s cheaper. Parking enforcement costs the same whether it’s private or public but you can extract more money out of it by being dirty. It’s a bad look for the city if they’re dirty but if the private company they contract out does it, the city gets to wash their hands of it. Also pensions and stuff. Pretty bad.
- elijaht 3y agoYea Atlanta parking enforcement sucks. At least as of a few years ago it was outsourced to a private company(/companies) and they are very trigger happy. Had two tickets assessed incorrectly
- fsckboy 3y agoout of curiosity, did you have out of state plates? maybe they have different booting standards based on "collectibility" of the ticket
- filoleg 3y agoNope, GA plates registered in Fulton County (aka the same county that ATL is in). GA driver's license too, and the car was registered under my name.
- landemva 3y agoWas that a private lot?
- filoleg 3y agoNot sure, but it was this[0] parking lot. It was behind a place that is currently marked as Sebastian Pintxos Bar on google maps. At the time, it was a korean-mexican fusion restaurant, forgot the name, it closed down permanently not that long ago. 0. https://maps.app.goo.gl/dQUE4yaaJTqVQ7En6?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/dQUE4yaaJTqVQ7En6?g_st=ic
- ok_dad 3y agoThis isn’t police boots, these are private lots. Personally, I think it should be illegal in any civil instances to boot a car, it should only be used by cops for major offenders. There is nothing immoral about what these girls are doing, IMO. There are a LOT of boot lickers in this thread today.
- gray_-_wolf 3y agoI am somewhat skeptical of the $50 they take for "freeing" the car. That for me personally puts it in a bit of gray area...
- fragmede 3y agoMaybe, but their time to drive to your car and unlock it is worth something. And if you've gotten booted, your ticket fines greatly exceed $50, possibly by an order of magnitude. A Boot Girl's gotta eat, y'know?
- dharmab 3y agoThat's why they wear masks. Plenty of Silicon Valley businesses start out by openly breaking the law, too. The $50 covers the cost of travel, tools, advertising and personal risk.
- kibwen 3y ago> Plenty of Silicon Valley businesses start out by openly breaking the law, too. If these girls had an app, they'd qualify for Y Combinator.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- stefan_ 3y agoSomeone drives onto your private lot and leaves. What should be the recourse available to you as a property owner?
- gtowey 3y agoMy problem with it is when private entities are allowed to boot your car. One time in Berkeley I parked in a parking lot and walked across the street to pick up some food. I was gone 5 minutes and when I returned there was a boot on my car. There was an attendant in the parking lot who informed me it was private property and only for the businesses next to the parking lot. They wanted $150 to remove the boot. This wasn't city parking enforcement, it was a private party. It's basically extortion. I get that they're trying to discourage non customers from using the lot, but it wasn't obvious it was restricted and clearly if they have someone in the lot full time, they could have warned me instead of immediately holding my car for ransom. Especially since I'm not from that area and I'm not familiar with local parking rules. It's purely an expensive trap. I don't think this case should be legal.
- fsckboy 3y ago[flagged]
- landemva 3y agoIf it's a private lot, stealing their product is theft and trespassing. Should it be legal for people to do the same in your kitchen?
- asadotzler 3y agoSo sue for theft and trespassing. Confiscating my property and holding it hostage before a trial should be illegal.
- landemva 3y agoOn my property, a call to towing company removes it. The vehicle owner can deal with the tow and impound charges, during their business hours.
- explaininjs 3y agoIf you leave an open table full of food on the sidewalk, you shouldn’t then harass people for taking from it.
- mathisfun123 3y ago[flagged]
- paulgb 3y ago> one begins to wonder whether it's orchestrated It's not, lol. I've been on this site 16 years (user #590), if I'm astroturfing at least you have to give me credit for my long game :). I immigrated to the US, I know the pain of dealing with Kafkaesque institutions. But I've also seen an ambulance with its sirens on delayed by several minutes because of a double-parked minivan. At some point, we need to acknowledge that owning a motor vehicle is not a blank check for putting other people in danger.
- mathisfun123 3y ago> But I've also seen an ambulance with its sirens on delayed by several minutes because of a double-parked minivan. So you're #3 then; there's not a single doubt in my mind that this is exceptional and the converse (people being booted unjustly/indiscriminately) is the norm.
- dang 3y agoCould you please not cross into personal attack and please not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mathisfun123 3y agoDo tell how pointing out that anecdata doesn't constitute a good faith engagement should be considered "personal attack" or "flamewar".
- dang 3y agoAccusing another commenter of bad faith is a personal attack, and the aggressive way you've been arguing is the flamewar style.
- benj111 3y agoFor UK readers, and perhaps others, they mean car clamps, not cars that have somewhere to put your shopping.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y agoI did briefly wonder how they could remove the boot and why they would want to.
- Stratoscope 3y agoAlso on the HN home page today, and perhaps oddly relevant: The Early Days of American English https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37529284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37529284
- lostlogin 3y agoIt would seem easy to catch them. A policeman messages to get a car unclamped and whoever turns up gets fined.
- thatguy0900 3y agoIt's not the police putting boots on, but private companies. It probably isn't worth their time to go after people who slipped away.
- flutas 3y agoMaybe being naive here, but that would be entrapment wouldn't it? Since, in this case, they would only be doing so because a cop asked them to. Of course not sure how that fits into drug/prostitution stings.
- dharmab 3y agoNope: https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-was-entrapped https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-w...
- gnicholas 3y agoEntrapment with regard to that on instance, perhaps. But if you’re just looking to gather evidence related to the many other instances of boot unlocking, there’s no problem. Now you’ve got their names and cell phones and can track to see if they happened to be right where prior instances happened, according to video evidence.
- papercrane 3y agoIt isn't entrapment. Entrapment is when the government induces you to commit a crime that you weren't inclined to commit. Good comic from a lawyer on the subject: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633
- WrongAssumption 3y agoNot likely. The bar for entrapment is higher than that. 1) Entrapment can occur if it can be argued suspect has no pre-disposition to commit a crime 2) Government actions caused a normally law abiding citizen to commit a crime If you are effectively running a hotline and taking orders to commit crimes, those won't apply to you.
- neoromantique 3y agoThey seem to be doing it for a fee, which is just stupid. When cars are 'booted' in US, is there no ticket to go along with it to bring further repercussions if it is illegally removed?
- prepend 3y agoAtlanta is one of the few places in America that allow booting. It’s done by private orgs, not the city. There is no ticket. Just a boot and a fine to pay to remove the boot. These boot girls are charging $50 or something. The fee to remove the boot is usually 85-200+. Personally, I’m happy to pay these people any amount over paying the super jerk boot people. I had a guy put a boot on my car while I was walking over to pay the parking box. He wouldn’t remove it until I paid $85. I had another boot put on my car from a bank’s parking lot. The bank was closed, the lot was open, there were no signs or attendants. Just an open lot. The boot operator claimed he had the right to boot but would not produce any documents. I paid $160 to remove my boot. I contacted the bank the next day and they said they don’t contract with anyone for parking enforcement when they are closed. Atlanta booters can all go bankrupt for what I care. These ladies are heroes.
- artursapek 3y agothe lockpicking lawyer on youtube has a video showing how to pick a boot
- bandyaboot 3y agoI hope they do this with the understanding that it almost certainly ends with a visit to the jail.
- prepend 3y agoActually, it won’t. These aren’t police boots. It doesn’t damage anyone’s property to remove the boot, just a key.
- bandyaboot 3y ago> These aren’t police boots. Ah, missed that part. Thanks.
- dharmab 3y agoIn some jurisdictions it is a crime to remove a private parking enforcement device without authorization. Check your local laws/ask a lawyer.
- pavel_lishin 3y agoThe article even explicitly says so: > “While owning a boot key is not illegal, here is what the public needs to know,” reads the department’s Facebook page. “If you use a Boot Key to modify, tamper, or disengage a booting device from a vehicle, you can be charged with: Criminal Trespass, and/or Theft of Services, and/orTheft by Taking, and/or Damage to Property 2nd Degree.”
- prepend 3y agoIt’s mealy language. “You can be charged…” These are private booters. No one has ever been charged. Atlanta police barely respond to real crime, much less this. It would be interesting to see what happens if the booter hires an off duty cop to charge the boot girls or write them a ticket. I expect it would not result in conviction, much less even prosecution. And the ticket would be on the boot girls, not the person who hires them. I think the risk would be if the cops were in on the racket or got some kind of bribe “dukes of hazard” style. But the boot industry doesn’t make enough money to pull local cops and politicians in.
- ImAnAmateur 3y agoThis article is barebones. I was expecting new news about this, not a restatement of the facts and a note about one legislator who's not making progress. The first article linked is more informative for those who are hearing about this for the first time. https://abcnews.go.com/US/atlantas-rise-car-booting-prompts-masked-women-matters/story?id=103086750 https://abcnews.go.com/US/atlantas-rise-car-booting-prompts-...
- dawnerd 3y agoI was getting some written by gpt vibes from some of the wording. Thanks for that alt link
- mlinksva 3y agoCompare and contrast with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre_Extinguishers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre_Extinguishers
- jiofj 3y agoOne works for the citizen and the other works against them.
- ignormies 3y agoOne works for the individual, the other against the individual. One works for the collective, the other against the collective. As a "citizen" who is pretty firmly anti-car within urban areas, my views on who is working for and against me are going to differ from yours. I don't necessarily agree with the actions the Tyre Extinguishers are taking, but I definitely sympathize and appreciate the end-goal. On the other hand, as a "citizen" who wants parking within urban areas to be less subsidized, I don't agree with skirting enforcement for fines around illegal parking.
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoI would be cautious in assuming that the parking enforcement fines and conditions are justified, especially when examined from the angle of class and how they might disproportionately affect certain groups.
- jiofj 3y agoThe individual must always be before the collective. Putting the collective before the individual has a name... and it is...
- dharmab 3y agopolite society? human civilization?
- 3y ago
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- PrimeMcFly 3y agoGood on them!
- grouchomarx 3y agoPrivate companies booting cars is atrocious but charging $50 a pop is pretty scummy
- sacnoradhq 3y agoYeah. If it's going to be a Robin Hood thing, charging money is sure to invite a visit to the Fulton County Jail. Free = cool. Charging money = criminal enterprise, where Georgia has liberal RICO statutes.
- kibwen 3y agoSounds like a market opportunity to acquire your own key and charge $49.99.
- explaininjs 3y agoGood news, since apparently your time is less valuable than theirs you will have no problem undercutting them.
- grouchomarx 3y agoThe economics are irrelevant. I'm pointing out that replacing shitty behavior with slightly less shitty behavior is still shitty. Do you have an issue with people posting their observations on a web forum?
- pavel_lishin 3y ago> “While owning a boot key is not illegal, here is what the public needs to know,” reads the department’s Facebook page. “If you use a Boot Key to modify, tamper, or disengage a booting device from a vehicle, you can be charged with: Criminal Trespass, and/or Theft of Services, and/orTheft by Taking, and/or Damage to Property 2nd Degree.” What's the penalty for immobilizing someone's car? If they're free to put a boot on my car because it's on their property, why am I not free to remove a boot from my property?
- lowbloodsugar 3y agoIANAL but those charges seem like they’ll be hard to argue that they apply in court.
- EliRivers 3y agoAt risk of having no idea what I'm talking about, they helpfully quote the Georgia Codes to which they are referring, and the only one that looks like it actually applies might be the first, Criminal Trespass (GA Code § 16-7-21), depending on one's definition of "maliciously". "A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally damages any property of another without consent of that other person and the damage thereto is $500.00 or less or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person." That sentence isn't the best, but I think it could be argued that it can be parsed as: "A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she <does this thing> or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person" Unlocking it is arguably interfering with the use of the property of another person without consent; but is it malicious? Can't find a clear definition of "malicious" in Georgia law. I guess this is why lawyers get paid so much.
- explaininjs 3y agoWell locking it is certainly interfering with the use of the property. But taking a programmer’s look at paws like this is ill advised. These laws are there to smooth the process of the state enforcing whatever the most powerful lawyers involved in a particular matter want. No more no less.
- pierat 3y agoWell I'd just use a cordless drill on the lock with titanium bit. That'll make quick work and ruin their little scam.
- sacnoradhq 3y agoLol. You'll be mugged for the drill before you make a dent in it. An angle grinder will slice through it like warm butter. That's what those damn bicycle thieves use.