11 ms·

The fact that phenylepherine is ineffective is quite old and has been common knowledge for many years. What is news is that the FDA is finally acknowledging it

• jeffbee 3y ago
  > I've maintained my own reserve of pseudoephedrine for years. Synthesizing it from widely-available and affordable street drugs, I assume. https://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3/Pseudoephedrine.pdf https://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3/Pse...
  • nimish 3y ago
    Easily the best example of why the stupid federal law limiting access to a useful decongestant backfired.
    • tptacek 3y ago
      In what way did it backfire? It's a useful decongestant. But it also basically is methamphetamine, with just a couple easily-reversible Rubik's turns to make it a decongestant instead of an ultra-powerful stimulant.
      • amanaplanacanal 3y ago
        Didn’t prevent people from getting meth, but did allow drug companies to make millions selling a useless compound. I doubt that was the intent of the legislation.
        • tptacek 3y ago
          The same company sells both compounds. I don't think this was a huge moneymaker. I think the PE thing was just there to retain the sales that moving Sudafed behind the counter sacrificed. That doesn't make it OK, but it does sort of argue against the idea that the regulation was just a moneymaking scheme.
          • amanaplanacanal 3y ago
            Agree with that. Just more failed war on drugs stuff.
            • tptacek 3y ago
              Only if you judge the outcome strictly by how many people are consuming meth, but there are other important endpoints to this policy, like "reducing the number of backyard meth labs", which are problems in their own right.
      • fragmede 3y ago
        Water, consisting of hydrogen "basically is" and explosive, as is table salt, consisting of Sodium, which explodes when coming into contact with water. How can we let these two dangerous substances go unregulated! Think of the children! who will get to have interesting high school chemistry labs, that is. That Sudafed "basically is" meth misunderstands chemistry, and the resourcefulness of the real life Walter Whites of the world. Hells Angels and the Cartels operate under the nose of the DEA so there's no way meth or drugs are going away. It's time for the government to admit they lost the current battle of the war on drugs to drugs. Current tactics aren't working and it's time to take the war to the demand side of the equation. Cut down the demand for drugs by getting addicts off opiates and stimulants with an army of therapists and councilors and rehab programs. With a large helping of harm reduction and government assistance. Wishful thinking, I know, but making all forms of basic chemistry illegal is like trying to make water not wet.
        • tptacek 3y ago
          No, this analogy isn't plausible.
          • fragmede 3y ago
            Hmm. Say more?
        • pvg 3y ago
          table salt, consisting of Sodium The difference between a Sodium ion and a Sodium atom is one of the profoundest in chemistry and a fundamental topic of its high school version.
    • hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      You realize your "best example" is a joke, right?
      • nimish 3y ago
        Yes, the punchline of the joke is that synthesizing pseudoephedrine from meth is more convenient than buying Sudafed after the law on restricting sales ostensibly to reduce meth production. i.e., the law didn't do much to halt meth production but did put a bunch of barriers around a useful drug _and_ promoted the use of phenylephrine instead, a useless drug in pill form. A huge net negative.
  • buildsjets 3y ago
    At least if I followed that path, I would not be required to have my purchase recorded in an insecure government database.
    • tptacek 3y ago
      Why are you worried about the government recording your usage of Sudafed? What is anybody going to do with that information? Serious question! I understand the principle involved; I just want to know if there's some practical concern.
      • fluidcruft 3y ago
        Every database that contains your PII increases your exposure to a breach and likelihood of having to deal with it. It's not the sudafed use that makes it a target: it's the driver's license.
        • tptacek 3y ago
          Right, but this particular database presumably doesn't have anything especially sensitive in it, apart from your Sudafed consumption. I don't mean to dismiss that point, it's a valid point, I'm just considering it closely.
          • fluidcruft 3y ago
            Anything a government uses to uniquely identify and track individuals (i.e. driver's license) is the target.
            • tptacek 3y ago
              Until very recently, drivers license numbers were effectively public in a lot of states (they're deterministically generated from public information).
              • 3y ago
  • hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Lol, that article is really brilliantly hilarious. SNL should do a "Bizarro-World Breaking Bad" where Walter and Jesse go around buying up crystal meth so they can cook Sudafed.
• cheald 3y ago
  Indeed. I've known that phenylepherine is worthless for a long while, and just make it a point to buy a pack of the real stuff every 6 months or so, so that I always have it on hand when I need it. In my state, it's controlled - you have to get it from a pharmacist (though you can do so without a prescription) - they take your driver's license and don't allow you to purchase it too often.
  • anamexis 3y ago
    That is a US federal law (the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005)
    • jimmaswell 3y ago
      And now we've got a fentanyl epidemic filling the void and even more power handed to Mexican cartels since meth got harder to produce domestically. Drugs continue to win the war on drugs.
      • akira2501 3y ago
        You can't fight a war against inanimate objects. You can fight a war against drug addicts. You cannot possibly win a war against drug addicts without addressing the fundamental problem.
        • JoeAltmaier 3y ago
          Most of us cannot make these drugs ourselves. To restrict them effectively would certainly curtail their abuse?
          • akira2501 3y ago
            The presumption here is that an addict, unable to get their "favorite" drug, will now just stop doing drugs entirely. This is not the case. Drugs can also be stolen, from homes, and from pharmacies, and from ambulances. There are way more vectors than people care to ponder. If you've ever had an addict in your life, you're forced to.
• jacobsimon 3y ago
  I just came here to say that I actually find phenylephrine nasal spray quite effective - but I use it for a different use case: stopping nosebleeds quickly. It's quite effective at that and came recommended by an ENT, so I do believe it's an effective vasoconstrictor when applied locally and I'm glad it's available.
  • kstrauser 3y ago
    That's legitimate. The FDA's issue with oral phenylephrine is that it's metabolized in the gut before it gets to the sites where you want it to work.
    • cyberax 3y ago
      I wonder if it will work as a suppository.
      • wmanley 3y ago
        It’s worth a try. I’d recommend buying a separate spray for your nose though.
        • kstrauser 3y ago
          “This medicine smells like crap.”
        • phone8675309 3y ago
          Reminds me of the old joke: what's the difference between an oral thermometer and a rectal thermometer? Answer: the taste
          • tlavoie 3y ago
            "Oh, Dad..." Seriously, my late father _loved_ that joke, as do I.
            • 3y ago
• 1MachineElf 3y ago
  It helps me a lot with post-nasal drip.
• Damogran6 3y ago
  I haven't tried lately (moved on to aother anti-histimines) but with a Driver's license, I could pretty readily get ahold of it. Then had to disengage based on what it was doing to my blood pressure.
  • jamiek88 3y ago
    Were you using a ‘D’ version? Like Claritin-D? I got that by accident once and my heart pounded like I was on speed. I’m highly sensitive to that stuff, same at the dentist the local anesthesia makes my heart race. Third generation antihistamines are amazing. Zyrtec changed my life. I used to majorly struggle with ‘hayfever’ as we called it, to the point it ruined my summer. I was miserable as a child, only winter gave relief as I was allergic to both tree and grass pollen. Then zirtec came out. Originally as a prescription and that coupled with Flonase completely got rid of my symptoms without fatigue! The old antihistamines I’d have to take so many to get help that I could barely keep my eyes open. Then I moved to Texas from UK and the flora was completely different thus I didn’t react at all! It was heavenly. Then I moved to Oregon and many, many, trees and plants are the same as in the UK and my allergies came back. Much weaker this time as a lot of people age out of these types of allergies, as my mother did. OTC zirtec sorts it out. Anecdotal really but I thought I’d share.
    • Damogran6 3y ago
      Yeah, I cycle between kirkland nasal spray and eyedrops. And now going back on-site, the headcolds you pick up with proximity to people, Sudafed was AWESOME, it's just a pita to get and I shouldn't use it a lot.
    • hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      > my heart pounded like I was on speed. Pseudoephedrine literally is an amphetamine, and famously the precursor to meth(amphetamine). I don't have a similar reaction but I'm not surprised some people are more sensitive.
    • p1mrx 3y ago
      Note that Zyrtec's patent expired in 2007, so it's now available as generic Cetirizine.
• purpleblue 3y ago
  The fact that drug companies' "tests" indicated that it worked shows how corrupt the system is. There is in fact no way it could have worked, yet the data they provided decades ago showed that it did. This is why we should never, ever trust drug companies, it's just kind of funny that somehow in the last few years some people decided that Pfizer was a hero instead of a psychopathic (in the purest clinical definition) money machine.
• JJMcJ 3y ago
  You can still get pseudoephedrine, for example Claritin D, the D for decongestant. It's not by prescription but you have to sign for it at the pharmacy desk, present ID, and I believe it's reported to FDA/DEA and there are limits to how much you can buy per month.
  • tyingq 3y ago
    That's mostly right, but it's not reported to anyone. It came from the "The Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005". If you want to sell pseudoephedrine, your org has to "self certify", keep a logbook purchasers have to sign, require ID, enforce the purchase limits, train employees, etc. But, the logbook doesn't go anywhere unless some investigation or audit prompts that. So, if you're a really determined cooker, you can still go to a bunch of different stores...though you're leaving a paper trail. And some big brands might cross-check and have an org-wide electronic log book. https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/meth/index.html https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/meth/index.html
    • terribleperson 3y ago
      I was under the impression that there are state-level databases in some states that actually track sales. I am likely incorrect, since a quick google doesn't find anything.
      • scarface_74 3y ago
        https://help.eaglesoa.com/29/en-n-eagle/Pharmacy/Pseudoephed_OTC_track/Nat_Pseudo_Datab_Interfc.htm https://help.eaglesoa.com/29/en-n-eagle/Pharmacy/Pseudoephed...
    • alex_young 3y ago
      Doesn't it take a ton of the stuff though? I thought people stealing pallets of it was the only viable way to source enough of it. Seems like just having some inventory control is a sufficient deterrent.
      • 3y ago
• paint 3y ago
  I mean, I get the reason behind it and I honestly don't know if it's a good or a bad thing, but the idea of pseudoephedrene sales being monitored like that is so foreign to me. I bought cold medication in pharmacies in 3 different countries always asking specifically for pseudoephedrine and it never occured to me that was a meth cook thing.
• EdwardDiego 3y ago
  In NZ, pseudoephedrine products were banned, and now no-one smokes methamphetamine at all! Totally worth removing an effective medicine from the market. Haha, I am of course kidding, the meth trade is fuelling gang violence harder than ever, and it now really sucks if you get heavily congested sinuses. When I'm travelling via Australia I try to buy as much pseudoephedrine containing medicines as I think I can bring back to NZ without looking like a smuggler, and then ration them out to family members very begrudgingly. Meanwhile, methamphetamine is coming into the country in large quantities in shipping containers (along with illegal firearms). Banning pseudoephedrine was totally worth it... And now something similar is occurring with cough suppressants, the ones that contained dextromethorphan, i.e., the ones that worked, turns out some people were abusing them recreationally, (DXM is a disassociative in high enough doses), so now that's gone, and we're left with pholcodine, which I find far less effective, but that too is looking likely to be banned, because apparently that's abusable too. I'm not sure our regulators have the balance right.
  • stephen_g 3y ago
    You really can't get it at all? Wow! I'm in Australia, they just have an ID check and I think they just record how many times you've bought it over whatever time period in a shared database. It works so well (and the PE version of everything is so useless), it must be really crap not to be able to get any!
    • EdwardDiego 3y ago
      Might be available by prescription, but no chemist stocks it, to be fair, they were getting ramraided a bunch back in the heyday.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]